thesage
Smash Hero
I never said he had bad hitboxes on nair haha. Didn't know about the foot not having a hurtbox. Is it only during his nair?
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Doubles tier list?
- Thread starter S P O N G E
- Start date
phish-it
Smash Champion
Most characters don't have hand and feet hurtboxes, Mewtwo is an exception (foot hurtboxes).
Here are some poor priority nairs.
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Even Samus' nair which has good priority isn't that much different than Fox's:
Her foot hurtbox actually extends outside of the hitboxes unlike Fox's, So yes, Fox's nair does have good priority, not sure why you don't think so.
I wouldn't go as far to say that Mario's nair has bad priority. The hitboxes are correctly placed and he has above average frame data. He is also such a small character that the absence of a body hitbox doesn't affect his ability to hit/trade.
Bones0
Smash Legend
Yeah, I guess if you compare his nair to some of the worst nairs in the game on a bunch of low tiers it's not terrible. lol I'm not sure why we're comparing nairs to other nairs in the first place. Most characters do not try to out-nair Fox. They stay on the ground and use their good hitboxes to get easy trades or outright beat Fox when he SHFFLs. As soon as you start comparing Fox's nair to the attacks that other characters frequently use vs. it, it's apparent that the priority is pretty bad. Just look at all the hitboxes Peach, Marth, Sheik, Falcon, and other top tiers have to beat a Fox nair. There's no shortage of choices, which is pretty relevant when nair is one of Fox's major tools for approaching. This is why we don't see top Fox players using a stereotypical "I'm gonna fly across the stage with my nairplane" strategy anymore. It gets beat by every relevant character in a variety of ways, so players instead abuse Fox's speed to wait for really good opportunities to nair.
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Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
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- Aug 6, 2008
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- 19,345
+2 for your avatar bones.1. How do you figure? Outside of dair, bair, and utilt, all of Falco's moves are really susceptible to trades, and outside of lasers, he has a very limited range of attack. Fsmash is probably his farthest reaching hitbox, and it's extremely slow and risky. This idea that spacies have good priority has been spread since the dawn of time, most famously with the claim that their nairs have good priority when that's not the case at all and people just don't understand how the game works. I'd trade all of Falco's aerials for most other top tiers' in a heartbeat, and his aerials aren't even his worst area of priority. If you think this is good priority, you're delusional (it's even worse than it looks because FFing increases the effect of hitbox dragging):
2. Not sure how aerial shine makes CC obsolete. I see spacies getting wrecked by CC left and right because outside of their dairs, their other moves are too weak to even link into shine. Marth can outspace CCs, Sheik can fair, Peach can FC any aerial except dair, Falcon can knee/stomp, Jiggs can bair and drift away, etc. Falco specifically also can't very well DD grab vs. CC spam because he's too slow and his grab punishes are too weak. There's a reason Fox vs. Falco and spacie dittos see a ton of CCing vs. each other.
My main qualm was the understanding of fox and falco has having low priority. I mean we are making a list of characters and their performance in teams. This means we take a look at all characters respectively and should make a scale based off of that. Fox having 3 out of 10 is just downplaying his ability. As for Falco those moves you mentioned are pretty much the only moves I believe you would be using in teams until you landed a solid hit to start your punish. In which case pretty much ll moves are viable at that point.
The main point with Fox/Falco aerials is there disjoint compared to other characters. This fox one you have is actually quite good when fox comes at an opponent either from diagonally above or diagonally below if you look at the disjoint he has. He is rather weak behind him due to the tail, but then you have Bair to cover that side of his body. Point being is that Fox/Falco probably have some of the better neutral attacks in the whole game compared to many other characters. Now, that encompasses stuff like what happens when you land a hit. Fox Nair is probably a bit more useful in most situations than Sheik's Nair since its so weak on a weak hit.
You are right these are not the best priority. Marth/Roy probably have the best priority. They just may not have the best traits in other areas to make up that priority. Again, I do not believe fox/falco have as low as you gave them was the whole start of this. Falco is a bit interesting too when you include lasers. I am not sure whether to classify them as priority, but it does an amazing job of simply stopping other characters for hitting with hit. It is just good in combination with Falco as a character. Additionally, for ground moves they have good ground priority as well due to having such high damage. Falco's Ftilt/Utilt clanks with marth's weak Fsmash. Or their jabs will clanks with a variety of tilts from characters as well. I suppose not to forget about invincible shine and invincible body parts on dsmash/usmash as well. Overall, fox/falco just have good moves to generally win or draw or trade with many other attacks in the game.
2) After thinking about it CC is probably not a good indication of what priority defines.
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phish-it
Smash Champion
You said the priority on Fox's was bad, so I gave you some examples of some nairs with actual bad priority. I'm not arguing Fox has top tier priority, I'm arguing that based on a 1-10 scale in relation to all 26 characters, his priority is above average.
Fox + Jiggs and Fox + Sheik are definitely better than double Fox. Pikachu is also a top tier pick in doubles and is highly underrated.
SSBM_HypnoToad
THE HypnoToad?
1. Fox
2. Jigglypuff
3. Peach
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Captain Falcon
7. Dr. Mario
8. Ganondorf
9. Luigi
10. Mario
11. Samus
12. Young Link
13. Link
14. Pikachu
15. Yoshi
16. G&W
17. Roy
18. Sopo
19. Ice Climbers
20. DK
21. Pichu
22. MewTwo
23. Bowser
24. Kirby
25. Ness
26. Zelda
2. Jigglypuff
3. Peach
4. Sheik
5. Marth
6. Captain Falcon
7. Dr. Mario
8. Ganondorf
9. Luigi
10. Mario
11. Samus
12. Young Link
13. Link
14. Pikachu
15. Yoshi
16. G&W
17. Roy
18. Sopo
19. Ice Climbers
20. DK
21. Pichu
22. MewTwo
23. Bowser
24. Kirby
25. Ness
26. Zelda
S P O N G E
Smash Cadet
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- Feb 26, 2013
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- 64
Sopo better than Ice Climbers? Also where Falco at.
Yoshi isn't that good in teams... his only kill move is dsmash (hits on both sides) and I cant see many useful team combos.
SSBM_HypnoToad
THE HypnoToad?
God dammit, I knew I missed one. He would be directly after Captain Falcon.
SSBM_HypnoToad
THE HypnoToad?
As long as your team is Falco/Yoshi, Fox/Yoshi, or double Yoshi, it's pretty effective. Ganondorf/Yoshi is really good too.
Marth is way too high and Pikachu is way too low.
yeah, kirby/fox is pretty good too
SSBM_HypnoToad
THE HypnoToad?
Me and my friend used to enter doubles with that team. He would be Mr. Popo (Kirby) and I would be Goku (fox) and sometimes he would be Freiza (MewTwo). We were big DBZ fans back then
toiletduck
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- May 10, 2011
- Messages
- 23
Fox and Jiggz are top tier in no particular order
then...
sheik, cf (at highest highest lvl), peach
then...
falco
then...
sheik, cf (at highest highest lvl), peach
then...
falco
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
I did not read through all of the comments but I will make an argument that Ganondorf is pretty solid in teams.
Def better than Falcon because he can throw out hit boxes, lives longer, and has a better horizontal recovery which imo is more important in teams than vertical recovery since gimps are more likely to occur. Ganon isn't a teams god but I feel like he is better than Falcon in teams.
S:
Fox
Jiggs
A:
Sheik/Peach
B:
Ganondorf/Falco
Marth
Falcon
I tied Ganondorf with Falco because Ganondorf is a better teams character because of recovery and the big hitboxes but Falco is a better character overall so I feel like that could easily come into play in teams. The B tier in my list was difficult to make.... I don't think anyone would have any arguments with the Top 4 on my list.
For people that put IC's on this list at all.... Why? Its hardly IC's, its just SOPO since the first 5 seconds Nana is gone. IC's suck on teams... imo.
Def better than Falcon because he can throw out hit boxes, lives longer, and has a better horizontal recovery which imo is more important in teams than vertical recovery since gimps are more likely to occur. Ganon isn't a teams god but I feel like he is better than Falcon in teams.
S:
Fox
Jiggs
A:
Sheik/Peach
B:
Ganondorf/Falco
Marth
Falcon
I tied Ganondorf with Falco because Ganondorf is a better teams character because of recovery and the big hitboxes but Falco is a better character overall so I feel like that could easily come into play in teams. The B tier in my list was difficult to make.... I don't think anyone would have any arguments with the Top 4 on my list.
For people that put IC's on this list at all.... Why? Its hardly IC's, its just SOPO since the first 5 seconds Nana is gone. IC's suck on teams... imo.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Samus is waaaay underrated. I think she's one of the better teammates out there: she lives long, her projectiles are great assists (like Falco's lasers and any other projectile though, they have to be used correctly), and decent OoS options (up-b, d-smash) to escape pressure when sandwiched.
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
I think she will just be juggled in the air a lot... Like Peach can get the ground easily but Samus will be juggled until a KO it seems like...
tan(90
Smash Apprentice
I agree, Falcon does alot of finishing moves, and it's harder to see the knees coming if the teamate is getting their attention.
Twitchy
Smash Cadet
IC's are really strong at supporting in 2v2, strong quick smashes can clean up kills really easily
not to mention wobbling
S P O N G E
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2013
- Messages
- 64
Yeah but you can't really wobble because the person who your wobbling's team mate will just break it up
Pluid
Smash Apprentice
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- NNID
- Pluiid
- 3DS FC
- 1435-4675-5379
Hey guys, I picked 12 characters to be ranked. Rank these characters top 12 for doubles, I'll post results eventually.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SSQM7FC
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SSQM7FC
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S P O N G E
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2013
- Messages
- 64
That seems like it would work but im sure it's not that easy. Falco could be occupied elsewhere.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Not necessarily. She can stall and move through the air with bomb jumps, as well as create f-air walls to help her deal when chased in the air.
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
Thats true, I just feel like she isn't that strong in general. Maybe just for stock tanking.
Mr. Jam
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2014
- Messages
- 78
What came first?
KP17
Banned via Administration
alot of stupidity in here
no offense
no offense
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
Probably, I am pretty stupid.
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
I mean locally two Ness' could come in second.....
WINK ;)
Thankful for today
Obviously biased here but I feel like people sleep on mid tier mains in Doubles.... Ganon walls off half the stage with aerials, Pikachu can gimp like crazy, and Doc can use pills to build damage. Samus imo is alright in teams but the missles are too much of a liability to the teammate. Doc uses pills but its not detrimental to the team.
I also believe Marth, IC's and Falcon blow in teams. Falcon can be good at high levels but that is about it. IC's do not need an explanation and Marth gets gimped by every character in doubles easily.
I also believe Marth, IC's and Falcon blow in teams. Falcon can be good at high levels but that is about it. IC's do not need an explanation and Marth gets gimped by every character in doubles easily.
Peach, Falcon team.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCoz09gti78
Thats the winners finals, the same matchup In the second game. In finals they ran a dedicated double samus team i think.