Does Yoshi require a secondary or can he be considered solo viable?

[RaptorTEC]

Vinnie knows the mu. As long as he's on point he shouldn't ever lose to Yoshi. Although, he could do better by just playing campier

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Vinnie knows the mu. As long as he's on point he shouldn't ever lose to Yoshi. Although, he could do better by just playing campier

How familiar exactly? Any background experience?

 

[The Wall]

Well it'll be interesting to watch. Fought Void and lost 0-2 though it was very close both games (honestly I should've won game 2 but I flubbed it at the end).

Based on playing him, he was obviously leagues better than any Sheik I've played before but I think I demonstrated that it's still possible to win. If I hadn't choked I definitely would've had game 2 at a minimum.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Well it'll be interesting to watch. Fought Void and lost 0-2 though it was very close both games (honestly I should've won game 2 but I flubbed it at the end).

Based on playing him, he was obviously leagues better than any Sheik I've played before but I think I demonstrated that it's still possible to win. If I hadn't choked I definitely would've had game 2 at a minimum.

He's part of my crew and was the top player in Hawaii before moving to Cali to get training. Easily one of the sheiks to watch out for. I haven't played him in a while, but I agree that yoshi has possibility of winning. Was it recorded by any chance?

 

[The Wall]

Yeah it should be uploaded in a day or two hopefully, I'll hop on Remo to make sure he does. Youtube is Smash United

 

[White_Pointer]

I don't believe Yoshi is solo viable, no (as should be clear from my "Yoshi isn't high tier" thread).

I actually secondary Yoshi in Smash 4, so he's not my main...but one thing stopping me from making him my main focus is that I don't believe he's a viable solo character. So I keep him as a secondary to try to cover Samus' bad matchups. I say secondary but to be honest he's probably about on par with my Samus because I play him reasonably often.

RaptorTEC

I don't believe Yoshi loses to MK yet. From what I've seen, Yoshis are just playing the mu wrong/really unsafe. I'd like to play a good MK to be sure.

I didn't think the matchup was all that bad for Yoshi either, until I saw this:

http://www.twitch.tv/safgc/v/27888768?t=02h07m52s

Winner's Finals from SXC (Australian major) a few weekends ago. It should be noted that these two players are from the same region in Australia and play each other quite regularly. What do you think after seeing that video? Fair enough he got punished for some unsafe down b's in game 1 but there wasn't much he could do in game 2 and 3. One string was started after split second shield drop, and another was started off a grab from Meta Knight that seemed to out prioritise a command grab from Yoshi. It wasn't really the type of set you wanted to see in Winner's Finals of a major. Yoshi just seems to be combo food for Meta Knight's up air, up b strings. The string was starting on as little as 25% and was KOing Yoshi on as little at 50% after the final up b hit.

 

[Sinister Slush]

And it's rightfully true too. Ghostbone explained a bit in the CCI thread bout MK vs Yoshi, and I believe in Jband's guide he says Yoshi is one of the easier characters to get the combo on due to weightclass.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I'm gonna be honest, Nikes threw the game away.

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's an inherent difference between losing to someone 0-15+ in games and 5+ sets from "threw the game"
No offense to him of course, but he wasn't anywhere near close to winning, not like they were last hit last stock and he missed 3 charged smashes on someone that he shield broke or something lol

 

[Delta-cod]

This MU is infinitely worse than any MU I could possibly conceive Yoshi as having beforehand. With the lack of real SDI in this game, I don't really see much that can be done about that. Our best bet would be to examine what percents we no longer get death combo'd at and then play in a way that completely removes us from the setups. Unfortunately, that might not be possible (looks like grab sets it up, as do attacks, so...).

If MK becomes popular he might be what blocks our viability, not Sheik. I feel like a mediocre Sheik is much easier than a mediocre MK, if those combos are as simple as they look...

I advise everyone to watch Nikes in Loser's Finals after that set. It really does restore faith in Yoshi's ability to tackle Diddy, at least. Very impressive stuff.

 

[The Wall]

I've fought enough Diddy in Houston with DJ Fliphop. 6-0'd him last time. I still find the matchup to be super bad for us but it's do-able. MK is a DI issue and I think people aren't recognizing that you need to move your DI in opposite directions while being carried by the up airs. If you don't he can just follow you in one direction easily.

 

[White_Pointer]

So you may have noticed ZeRo has put out another tier list.

Interestingly enough, after previously saying Yoshi is the "last tournament viable character", he's absent from this tier list that focuses on what he believes are tournament viable characters to solo main. He specifically mentions he just doesn't have results, which is 100% correct. He also mentions Luigi doesn't have results though which is false, Luigi is definitely still getting results after his nerfs.

Anyway here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3w9pqd/hey_rsmashbros_zero_here_with_a_tier_list_i_made/

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So you may have noticed ZeRo has put out another tier list.

Interestingly enough, after previously saying Yoshi is the "last tournament viable character", he's absent from this tier list that focuses on what he believes are tournament viable characters to solo main. He specifically mentions he just doesn't have results, which is 100% correct. He also mentions Luigi doesn't have results though which is false, Luigi is definitely still getting results after his nerfs.

Anyway here's the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3w9pqd/hey_rsmashbros_zero_here_with_a_tier_list_i_made/

I can't understand either, to be honest.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Depends what he considers results, Big regionals with maybe 5 or so from other states to make 200+ entrants, or national level.

Either way I of course agree with Yoshi not belonging in solo viable for his tier list, Luigi I'm inclined to believe as well cause I'm pretty sure the only luigi main that exists that does well is False and boss still lol (even tho false is ryu/sheik to win most matches, still has pocket luigi if needed somehow)

 

[Nikes]

This MU is infinitely worse than any MU I could possibly conceive Yoshi as having beforehand. With the lack of real SDI in this game, I don't really see much that can be done about that. Our best bet would be to examine what percents we no longer get death combo'd at and then play in a way that completely removes us from the setups. Unfortunately, that might not be possible (looks like grab sets it up, as do attacks, so...).

If MK becomes popular he might be what blocks our viability, not Sheik. I feel like a mediocre Sheik is much easier than a mediocre MK, if those combos are as simple as they look...

I advise everyone to watch Nikes in Loser's Finals after that set. It really does restore faith in Yoshi's ability to tackle Diddy, at least. Very impressive stuff.

Not sure if anyone's seen this but I actually beat the Diddy I lost to in Losers finals earlier in the bracket:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8OTNYVSWeE
There were so many times where I'd have a big percent lead but he'd bring it back. Still probably worth a look imo.
Shoutouts to Brawl teaching me item control which is huge in any MU against Diddy, if only we could still DJC with it like back then.

 

[White_Pointer]

Not sure if anyone's seen this but I actually beat the Diddy I lost to in Losers finals earlier in the bracket:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8OTNYVSWeE
There were so many times where I'd have a big percent lead but he'd bring it back. Still probably worth a look imo.
Shoutouts to Brawl teaching me item control which is huge in any MU against Diddy, if only we could still DJC with it like back then.

Oh, hey Nikes Wasn't aware you posted here. Hope you're okay with me linking that video earlier, I know it was incredibly frustrating for you at the time. It's a pretty good example of why that MU is super bad for Yoshi though.

 

[Nikes]

Nah dude it's fine, it's not like you guys are making a joke out of it or something like some others have. Thanks for being respectful about it

Also regarding the last game, it was obvious I was only DIing to the right, just because Ghost always mixes up and follows people's DI so my mind had basically given up at that point and shut down, which you just can't afford to do :/

 

[Delta-cod]

Not sure if anyone's seen this but I actually beat the Diddy I lost to in Losers finals earlier in the bracket:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8OTNYVSWeE
There were so many times where I'd have a big percent lead but he'd bring it back. Still probably worth a look imo.
Shoutouts to Brawl teaching me item control which is huge in any MU against Diddy, if only we could still DJC with it like back then.

There were huge swings in the LF set too. But the play really seemed to indicate that Diddy isn't a bad MU for us. At the very least, he doesn't keep us from solo-viability.

I'd say MK and Sheik are the only problems at this point. Maybe Rosy, if Raptor's struggles are anything to go by. I can't think of anything else.

Unfortunately, these are pretty popular characters.

 

[White_Pointer]

There were huge swings in the LF set too. But the play really seemed to indicate that Diddy isn't a bad MU for us. At the very least, he doesn't keep us from solo-viability.

I'd say MK and Sheik are the only problems at this point. Maybe Rosy, if Raptor's struggles are anything to go by. I can't think of anything else.

Unfortunately, these are pretty popular characters.

Rosa's definitely a problem, and I think ZSS and Pikachu both pose problems too. Also, from my observations, Yoshi really seems to struggle against zone-heavy characters like Olimar and Villager, and to a lesser extent Toon Link. Lucario poses a huge risk to him too given that he often struggles landing kill moves.

Also, believe it or not but I think Shulk is a pretty terribad matchup for Yoshi too, he just gets completely out-ranged by him. Luckily Shulk isn't too popular in tournaments though.

What's the Sonic matchup like? I usually get bodied by good Sonics but that's probably because I'm unfamiliar with the matchup. Unfortunately I haven't seen too many high level games of this MU either.

 

[Sinister Slush]

This MU is infinitely worse than any MU I could possibly conceive Yoshi as having beforehand. With the lack of real SDI in this game, I don't really see much that can be done about that. Our best bet would be to examine what percents we no longer get death combo'd at and then play in a way that completely removes us from the setups. Unfortunately, that might not be possible (looks like grab sets it up, as do attacks, so...).

If MK becomes popular he might be what blocks our viability, not Sheik. I feel like a mediocre Sheik is much easier than a mediocre MK, if those combos are as simple as they look...

MK getting popular since Leo took out Mr.R lol

That aside, for MK stuff I forget who kept saying "can DI to get out", if it really was that easy then ZSS MK, old prepatch luigi/Diddy wouldn't be as obnoxious as they were/are when they get grabs or setups into their BnB combos to death.

Anyways, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bOnSWM4flI#t=55s

 

[Egg.]

So what I gathered from that is to never miss a tech against Meta Knight...

From what people are saying it sounds like MK's main problem is his bad neutral game, so it makes sense why he would do so well against us, since we all know how well Yoshi does in neutral.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I don't think anyone is really solo-viable if people are playing 100% potential. It becomes a mess of counterpicks versus counterpicks because the devs designed bad/challenging MU's for everyone.

Yoshi kind of needs someone who can counter Pac-Man (and similar spam) and someone who can counter Ness, maybe, so Rosalina could be a ncice secondary for Yoshi in those MUs.

Things like Falcon, Fox, ZZS are winnable MUs for Yoshi. Yoshi's Nair is a dominant move in those MUs.

It's even the best move in the Sheik MU. It has slightly less range than Sheik's F-air but is faster and does 10%. Even weak hit of N-air does as much damage as a sweetspot Sheik F-air. That makes it easy to get Sheik to high percents where you can just kill her with N-air. There are so many ways to hit with N-air too.

One thing I never see pro Yoshis do is hunt for grounded Yoshi Bomb/Yoshi Bomb reversals. There are so so many opportunities to spot-dodge a grab/bouncing fish and Yoshi Bomb reversal death. Turn around frame 7 death is very good and I'm surprised I don't see it more from people who play in tournaments. It's pretty much Yoshi's kill throw, frame data wise, if only it broke shields in one hit.

* I might be overoptimistic. The way that I see things would be the ideal situation, but if Yoshi's Sheik/ZSS/CF/Mario/Link/DK/DK/R&L/Roy/Ryu match-ups are so bad, there's no point in playing him in tournaments at all. If Yoshi doesn't have the conceptual advantage that I've imagined being a Wifi scrub, there isn't a single redeeming quality to his competitive game.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I don't believe Yoshi is solo viable, no (as should be clear from my "Yoshi isn't high tier" thread).

I actually secondary Yoshi in Smash 4, so he's not my main...but one thing stopping me from making him my main focus is that I don't believe he's a viable solo character. So I keep him as a secondary to try to cover Samus' bad matchups. I say secondary but to be honest he's probably about on par with my Samus because I play him reasonably often.

RaptorTEC



I didn't think the matchup was all that bad for Yoshi either, until I saw this:

http://www.twitch.tv/safgc/v/27888768?t=02h07m52s

Winner's Finals from SXC (Australian major) a few weekends ago. It should be noted that these two players are from the same region in Australia and play each other quite regularly. What do you think after seeing that video? Fair enough he got punished for some unsafe down b's in game 1 but there wasn't much he could do in game 2 and 3. One string was started after split second shield drop, and another was started off a grab from Meta Knight that seemed to out prioritise a command grab from Yoshi. It wasn't really the type of set you wanted to see in Winner's Finals of a major. Yoshi just seems to be combo food for Meta Knight's up air, up b strings. The string was starting on as little as 25% and was KOing Yoshi on as little at 50% after the final up b hit.

He played the mu terribly and extremely unsafe /: We can play really lame against MK he doesn't have any reliable way to approach us.

 

[Delta-cod]

He played the mu terribly and extremely unsafe /: We can play really lame against MK he doesn't have any reliable way to approach us.

Vids/elaboration? MK is fast enough to get around our lame stuff, in my opinion, and almost all of his incidental hits lead into the death chain (Dash Attack, Grab).

 

[Lukingordex]

Sounds kinda dumb but I've been playing this match up a lot lately and the best strategy i've managed to find is to focus on avoiding being dash attacked in the entire match.

 

[Nikes]

Just had a tournament the other day where I had to go up against his MK again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4V6l0rVyf74
I tried staying near the ledge so his dash attack wouldn't get enough momentum to link into the Uair chain of death, but even that didn't work. It seems like if we have no momentum upon getting hit it's practically impossible to DI out of the chain, we can only try to escape the 2nd hit of his upB. Normally I'd spam jab if I know he's coming at me with a dash attack and it usually works pretty ok, but it's still not the saving grace we need.
Also, most of MKs attacks just beat out Yoshi's because of his sword, I hate to say it but other than him being lightweight and us having more damage output he generally has the advantage here.

If anyone has any experience against good MKs then please share what you know here.

 

[Sinister Slush]

There's wall vs Jband.
Think he's 0-3 against Jband's MK.

Also guys, the match in that video after he beats his sheik starts at 4:10 and the match ends a minute and twenty (20) seconds later.
C'mon meta knight...
Pretty much everything links into MK's upb, even DA at mid and high % links to a Upb or full hop upb. YA JUST CAN'T STOP THIS BEAST :^)

Anyways you have a seriously bad downb habit though. And why did you kill yourself on the last game, and guys I found the solution to winning the MU.

Let's do the ol' deltacod tactic and camp forever.

 

[White_Pointer]

Sounds kinda dumb but I've been playing this match up a lot lately and the best strategy i've managed to find is to focus on avoiding being dash attacked in the entire match.

He can also start the combo string of death off a grab to down throw though, so it's not just dash attack you need to worry about.

And why did you kill yourself on the last game

Pretty sure he lost his jump at some point in the offstage exchange.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I sub R.O.B. for rushdown opponents like Sheik and Pikachu. I think it's key to have a switch that's very different from your main - between the two, you'll cover a wider variety of options.

(Doesn't help me with Ness/Lucas, though, I probably need a third for them...)

 

[The Wall]

There's wall vs Jband.
Think he's 0-3 against Jband's MK.

Also guys, the match in that video after he beats his sheik starts at 4:10 and the match ends a minute and twenty (20) seconds later.
C'mon meta knight...
Pretty much everything links into MK's upb, even DA at mid and high % links to a Upb or full hop upb. YA JUST CAN'T STOP THIS BEAST :^)

Anyways you have a seriously bad downb habit though. And why did you kill yourself on the last game, and guys I found the solution to winning the MU.

Let's do the ol' deltacod tactic and camp forever.

0-1 vs Jband, only played him once at an ARFI. After playing him in friendlies though I figured out how to get around the MK bull.

Even as explained by Jband, if you DI in one direction the whole time you're dead. If he gets a dash grab into forward throw he can combo into up B if you DI away, DI towards and he can start an up air chain. It's almost always in your interest to let him start up airs. Soon as you see the way his momentum is carrying him, just DI the other way. His midair jumps cannot instantly reverse his momentum and he will be forced to do some hard hitting attack like Nair/Fair/Bair/UpB lest he drop the combo. If you do it quick enough he'll basically end up hitting you out of that sweet kill % that MK's love and now it doesn't matter what he hits you with, avoid the F smash spam and he'll have to kill you at normal %'s like everyone else which is when MK loses. Even still, losing to Jband at that ARFI I was the only person to take a game off of him, and that was with him taking one of my stocks at like 40% from an up air chain.

The MK matchup really isn't that bad, I still consider Diddy/Sheik to be much worse, but all 3 are do-able. I'm actually at the point right now where I struggle less with Sheik's and more with Diddy's.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Could've sworn it was 0-3, must have counted wrong.

Edit: Oh wait it's 0-2, whoops. Twice at the Austin tournament you're talking about, I apparently counted wrong.

 

[The Wall]

Hmm, I guess I forgot but we played in Winner's Finals? For some reason I thought I got put in Loser's before fighting him and then only met him in Grands. My mistake. Regardless I think people are too doom/gloom in the Yoshi forums about matchups. Like I find my 2 easiest ones to be Captain Falcon and ZSS yet everyone else says they're huge pains or even losing for us.

If you can fight things like Mario / Peach in the neutral there shouldn't be an issue with MK/ZSS/Falcon. The only 2 that are hard are Sheik/Diddy.

 

[Denti]

It's honestly hard to gauge Denti. People wanna say he's a top player still cause he kinda was in the brawl days, but at the same time he's still losing to everyone in his town. Just yesterday he lost to yet another local player named Jayson who played fox, before he's lost to lucario a DK mook/pika, for one of his famous rages RunCT etc.

Can we really call him a top player if he's losing to lesser known players in his own city, or even when other lower leveled players come down to compete? Sure he does good sometimes when regionals happen, but that usually tends to boil down to how many kryptonites can he avoid to get that placing.

But no, he doesn't play it right even when he's camping.
His Yoshi play doesn't work either as an example cause he implements too much rolls or grabs due to spamming it with his other characters along with many other problems. Despite attempting to play the character cause word on the street back then Yoshi was top 5 once diddy nerfs happened, he still doesn't fully understand the character so he doesn't actually know the MU even if he goes against Yoshi players. Don't think DFW has any Yoshi mains he can practice against to improve.

Imo, I'm either off or on.

 

[Delta-cod]

If you can fight things like Mario / Peach in the neutral there shouldn't be an issue with MK/ZSS/Falcon. The only 2 that are hard are Sheik/Diddy.

The difference between Sheik/Diddy and the other 3 is the strength of the punishes. We can contest the other 3 in neutral better, but their punishes hurt worse, with their possible lead ins to an early death. It makes the matchup harder to evaluate, for sure. Is our neutral good enough to overcome the punishes they get? I'm not sure.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Hmm, I guess I forgot but we played in Winner's Finals? For some reason I thought I got put in Loser's before fighting him and then only met him in Grands. My mistake. Regardless I think people are too doom/gloom in the Yoshi forums about matchups. Like I find my 2 easiest ones to be Captain Falcon and ZSS yet everyone else says they're huge pains or even losing for us.

If you can fight things like Mario / Peach in the neutral there shouldn't be an issue with MK/ZSS/Falcon. The only 2 that are hard are Sheik/Diddy.

I have no problem with Diddy (do agree on Sheik though), but Lucas/Ness are my biggest problems right now.

What I find useful in the Diddy matchup is simply knowing what he wants to do, and understanding the traps on his multi-hit smash attacks. I feel like he's easy to read in the sense that Diddy really needs to force you into a specific position to execute his combos, and knowing how he'll try and attempt that makes it real easy to counter. Against Diddy I play patiently and, quite honestly, I find my best tool is hesitation. I get a lot of surprise kills simply by waiting half a tick before acting, often with down-B.