Does the lack of tipper put you off?

[Dirty Duck]

So I played Awakening last year and ever since then I was hoping for Chrom and "Marth" to be in Smash, (still wish there was an alt for Lucina with the short hair and mask) so obviously when she was announced I was over the moon. I'd never really played as Marth in Brawl and was unfamiliar with his move set, so upon finding out she was a clone I felt a bit silly for not realising how good Marth's move set was. I still continued to play as Lucina because I prefer her aesthetic and I'm more attached to the character.

But then I found out about the tipper hitbox, and I really liked the idea of it. It also made play more challenging and gave me something to strive for on top of practicing just to improve in general. Now I find myself still using Lucina every so often because I love the character, but I keep going back to Marth.

So the question is, does the lack of tipper put you off playing as Lucina? Or do you feel the lack of tipper makes her better to play as than Marth? Do you play as Lucina just because you love her as a character or do you legitimately feel she tops Marth?

 

[LIQUID12A]

I play Lucina because I love her as a character. I could care less for the tipper, honestly. I don't want to learn some complex mumbo jumbo about damages and whatnot.

 

[Dirty Duck]

I play Lucina because I love her as a character. I could care less for the tipper, honestly. I don't want to learn some complex mumbo jumbo about damages and whatnot.

eh it's not really that complex? hit with the tip to do more damage and knockback. Hardly tome science.

 

[LIQUID12A]

eh it's not really that complex? hit with the tip to do more damage and knockback. Hardly tome science.

Which also involves having to rework your entire game plan to make sure you hit with the tip 99% of the time. And that's tedious. I prefer to hit neutrally with all my attacks than to hit hard when I connect a tip of a virtual sword.

 

[Moydow]

Tippers are too powerful to ignore, for me. I play Lucina for fun mostly; if I'm really serious about beating you, Marth all day every day.

 

[Chief Chili]

Yes the lack of tipper does put me off, Marth can kill earlier because of it. I still play Lucina because I like her as a character and because she's new but I know Marth is better. Spacing is important for every character and not to mention their moveset especially really benefits from spacing.

 

[Addonexus]

Which also involves having to rework your entire game plan to make sure you hit with the tip 99% of the time. And that's tedious. I prefer to hit neutrally with all my attacks than to hit hard when I connect a tip of a virtual sword.

I agree. I play Marth sometimes, and while I can land tipper attacks, I'd rather not have to worry about maintaining the spacing to get the most benefit out of them.

 

[Satan-]

Too be honest the tipper function is why I can't really play with Lucina. Not directly because of the tipper (though that is still the main reason) but the fact that Marth has a sour spot. Yes, the sour spot is one of the reasons I like Marth more. The sour spot makes it easier to follow up on certain combo strings such as Dthrow → Bair → Fastfall Uair or just fair to fair.

Tipper + Sour spot makes me love Marth way more than Lucina gameplay wise. Character wise, I don't really like Lucina. I preferred many other female characters in Awakening so I'm indifferent. Marth on the other hand, I've been playing with him since Melee so I've formed a special bond with the character you could say...

 

[Lichi]

The missing tipper feels like a straight down-grade in comparison to Marth, but it doesn't change the fact that I like Lucina as a character a lot more. Smash is a game where almost anything can happen, and Lucina has enough strength to her to be a valid character choice.

 

[KingTeo]

i played Marth a lot in Brawl and I actually prefer Lucina because she doesn't have a tipper. I tend to cross up whoever I'm fighting pretty often, doing a Dair as i short hop to the other side. It works a lot better since I usually hit way too close to get the tip. No time for spacing. You know what they say after all, balls deep or go home. None of that "just the tip" crap for me.

Of course I can still play Marth, but I'd have to play more defensively which sometimes is just meh.
440

 

[Trickerhere]

I am okay with it lol.

 

[A Gray Person]

I'm sorta indifferent to the lack of a tipper. I mean they both have the same move set with Lucina trading of a sweet and sour spot for balance on both ends. She can still space similarly to Marth and while she doesn't have as strong of spacing I find that it's a little harder for the opponent to whiff the rest of the blade due to the consistent damage it does.

But who knows I could be just nuts, I personally prefer Lucina's tipless blade because of how more aggressive she can potentially be but the tipper Marth's blade has can earn easy KO's if you can land it which many people have been familiar with since the days of Melee.

 

[Fastblade5035]

Opposite for me from the general consensus.

Yeah, if I mess with Marth around in training I can get decent results faster than with Lucina, but against actual opponents, landing tippers is hell.
Also, its really weird for me because I like Lucina's moveset a lot more than Marth.
Yes they are the same, but when I play Lucina, I just really enjoy the moveset on her rather than Marth. It feels 'righter' on her. I would only really change her A combo, and then I think that would be the perfect moveset for Lucina.
(I use the sliding Shield Breaker as a 'Luna' special, the long damage less Dolphin Slash as 'Galeforce', and the easy blade as 'Astra' to make her unique.)

 

[Emblem Lord]

I find this thread amusing.

 

[Khao]

Yeah, definitely.

I don't even care if my performace is better or worse, the tipper is one of the biggest reasons I find Marth fun to play as. It just completely changes the way I think about attacking when compared to every other fighter in the gamein a way that's both interesting and super rewarding. Lucina just doesn't feel the same when she doesn't have an equivalent, so she's just more boring to use.

I still alternate between both, though, if only for a bit of variety. And I generally stick to Lucina in For Glory because I don't trust myself to space properly with the imput lag in most matches.

 

[pimpimjim]

would it have been better if she was like roy with the mid-blade tipper? or is she better off having balanced (should be a tad bit stronger imo) damage..?

 

[Sol0ke]

Lack of tipper is one of the reasons I use Lucina, the other being I like her from Awakening

 

[M@v]

First off, holy cow an Emblem Lord post. There's a name I haven't spotted in a while. Two, I like the character more than marth, and I think its an interesting mechanic. Will she wind up being worse than marth in the long run? Time will tell, but I'm hoping not. I think she will be the better one in doubles or 4v4s regardless of how they stack up in 1v1s.

 

[Matoi Knight]

I never really minded the lack of a tipper. I could never land it as Marth anyways, that's why I play Lucina.

 

[yawns56k]

I like to pretend that Marth ain't even exist when I play Lucina tbh

 

[Shaya]

would it have been better if she was like roy with the mid-blade tipper? or is she better off having balanced (should be a tad bit stronger imo) damage..?

She may something interesting on her smashes at or around her feet (this is at least a proven case for down smash, and memories past of certain lucina up smashes after that discovery have me pondering).


But really, this is all about design intentions. Sakurai designed her to be an easier to use Marth, strictly easier but also strictly worse. She isn't compensated for the design paradigm shift, like let's say the difference between Falco (powerful/slower) vs Fox (faster/etc), nor is the differences so minor that there barely is any difference (Pit vs Dark Pit [literally only 4 changes in their entire moveset's data]); you don't have to think about tippers or spacing, but you don't really get any of the benefits of spacing either other than what everyone else already has, your stripped of the things which actually make Marth's moveset excel.

It was precarious balance work tbh, if the entire blade is 'neutral' (he didn't even maintain this stance universally), it's very easy for her to be balanced as such that this consistency thing actually equates to winning more/easier. If she had hit lag modifiers on certain moves (like let's say had the reverse of the mechanic from Marth, tippers being less hit lag but inner being more) than she'd actually be significantly better to the point of making Marth look subpar. It's obvious Sakurai never wanted that type of consequence to happen.

 

[Dragonhunter970]

The main reason I pick lucina over marth: the blade SEEMS thicker.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

TBH, it doesn't for me - actually completely opposite. Lucina's so reliable to kill as and she's more flexible in her fights than Marth can be.

A lot times when committing to Marth's tippering while altering with the sourspot hits, it seems not entirely flowing to my actions, and can go in unexpected or unsure ways, thus asking a lot of commitment. Mega Man and other projectile users, Shulk, etc. tend to even neuter Marth in this process because either projectiles or having more range lets them ruin spacing for Marth in FG, leaving him less opportunities to kill here and there via tippered hits. Which might then force me to to use sourspots to chip in damage and try to go for a tipper somewhere in the line. I don't know if to enjoy that very much in the long run.

Lucina takes that away because every hit from her counts and can be correlated to something via where the opponent flies and so on. She just feels more balanced despite being well, balanced. It's bit like Mario in last games.
That being said, Marth's higher killing power is always there and it can really surprise me at times. It's just not entirely "fun" for me to commit to and makes the fights feel kinda sided to one thing rather than being able to handle any situation.

I haven't played as Marth for a long while due this but have sometimes done so and who knows, I might try picking him up for real again after enjoying Lucy for longest time since SSB4 3DS's release.

EDIT: As of late, I actually got hang of Marth's tippering, and it might have change my views on Hero King big-time. His playstyle now feels addicting and satisfying to land, and I sometimes seem to easily score early kills. Lucina isn't still bad by any means, but now I can see why she might be outclassed by Hero King. But she'll be still "freestyle" Marth to me.

 

[Yukikoburry]

Not at all. We all know Lucina is best girl. Also in the rare moments for rushdown, its nice to have consistent damage

 

[Tino]

I really can't tell the difference, quite honestly. I play Lucina because I like her as a character when I played Awakening and when I play Lucina, I don't think about Marth.

 

[MDAVE]

Kind of, for me she basically lacks kill power. Of course I could go around swinging some smashes at my opponent, but it makes it all so much more predictable. Marth is just... Marth. And even though Lucina aspired to be like him in the game (to be really honest, the fact she's even in smash is basically a huge spoiler LOL), she seems just like a weaker version of him. Could be just me, but I have trouble with K.O.'ing opponents as Lucina. Meteor smashes are usually the only option.

 

[LucinaNab1]

The way I feel about it is, even if Lucina had a tipper as well, I wouldn't intentionally go for it most of the time. It would just make my setups and moves all the more predictable. I have to play with what comes natural, without thinking about it. It's bad enough I get outpaced by faster characters, but thinking down the road, even if I became a lot better with spacing, I most likely wouldn't switch to Marth. Lucina all the way!

 

[RonNewcomb]

It's not so much the lack of a tipper that bothers me as the lack of something that compensates for it. Even Marth's sourspots are safer on block than Lucina's standardized blade. W. T. F.

 

[Wiley]

It does for me
Once you start landing consistent tippers it's such a good feeling. Marth just feels more graceful, and yet has absurd ko power with proper spacing. I just feel like a more vulnerable ballsy marth when I play Lucina.
she gets all the points when it comes to one of the best caped slow walks in the game though.

 

[L9999]

If her aerials weren't so laggy I would slightly accept the lack of tipper. But not only they are laggy as Bowser's, they are weak. That's the whole problem with with Lucina. She is slow, has no safe moves, has no reward on hit, can't kill, and is easily killed. She is Marth with no tipper. Done. No change in attack speed, or aerial mobility, nothing that gives an excuse to not play Marth.

 

[Saclam]

Not really,i like being consistent when it comes to racking up damage instead of changing my entire game plan just so I can attempt to land and a tipper and risk getting punished.

Truth be told I can take the time and learn tipping with marth,but the fact that l like Lucina's character a lot more than Marth and she's playable in some shape or form Is more than reason to stick with her,even if she's in the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Funkermonster]

Kind of yeah, having a fully balanced sword is pretty much a straight downgrade fom Marth's tipper and sourspots: Moves are less safe on shield and she has a lot more difficulty killing. Even though she was intended to be an easier Marth, I honestly find Lucina to be harder to play than he is instead of what they were going for, and I honestly think her concept was pretty stupid and a waste of a character slot. But that's not all, I feel Lucina's weaknesses are pretty darn severe and her competitive future does not look good. I've been pretty loud and clear in saying that I think this character is Low Tier and I don't have as much faith in her as I'd like to, I feel she was given too many weak points and while she certainly has her strengths, I feel they aren't really enough to compensate.

• Her recovery sucks
• Too many of her moves are unsafe when shielded
• Mediocre Throws and low grab reward
• Weak Combos
• Unreliable killing moveset

Now I'm not saying she's completely awful, she's still got her good points and I think quite a few characters are worse than her. Her Out Of Shield Options are good, Shield Breaker is a threatening mixup for shielding players, okay edgeguarding abilities, she's got impressive range, a great air game, and amazing tilts (especially her down tilt, its awesome). But of all of these, the shield breaker is the only thing I find threatening about her. While all other tools she has are good, I don't think any of the others are outstanding per say, and I think they just make her more annoying rather than actually formidable, and I don't think they are enough to balance out the bad things about her. At least with Marth I have to respect his tipper or else I will die earlier than I may expect to, the scariest thing about Lucina is just shield breaker, nothing else really. Being a weakened Marth is more of a thorn in my side, I'm bothered more by her weaknesses in general. I would also make an argument that both are mediocre and that neither character does anything special, but that's something else.

While I haven't beaten the whole game yet, Fire Emblem Awakening may easily be my favorite game on the 3DS and one of the most fun gaming experiences I've had in a while, and I've never even played any of the other games in the series before. The anime art style, the music, the RPG and strategical gameplay, and most of the game's characters are all very colorful. Lucina's appearance in that game is just awesome and it would be difficult for me to dislike her for her personality and her design, she's not exactly my favorite character from said game nor is she my waifu, but she's still a badass nonetheless. I think this character is cool, and even though I don't necessary main her myself or do much to help advance her metagame, I want Lucina to be good! And I want you guys to do your best in advancing her metagame to make her good, I sincerely hope you can do it. It's real early in the game and things could change, but right now I'm rather disappointed with what they did with her. I feel a similar way about , , and ; they too are characters I love in their respective games and I think they are some of Nintendo's coolest characters, and I've always wanted Bowser Junior in particular to be in the next game and I got my wish. I don't main these guys either but I still want them to be viable characters too and I wish for their players to make it happen, and sadly they are considered below average as well; though I don't they got it quite as bad, and I have slightly more faith in them than I do in Lucina (or in Charizard's case, moderately more).

Honestly, I think Lucina should have just been an alternate costume for Marth. Even though she didn't steal a spot for some other potential fighter, I would rather have her be just as viable as Marth instead of a seperate character that's basically a (mostly) nerfed version of him. Marth was already nerfed enough in this game, thank you.

 

[Troykv]

Prefer usually used to Marth, because in general is better.

Although the absence of the tip in Lucina may result not be a big deal ... but that Marth get nerfed in several things besides ... she definitely does stay in a bad position.

Which I don't think it is solved in the future unless Lucina appear again in the next Smash.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

How I stand on this issue is pretty complicated, and it probably comes down to my own stubborness.

I never used Marth in prior games because of many reasons: I didn't like his visual design, his voice and the tipper mechanic. I tried Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon and it never worked out with me either. One of the most important things for me is to use a character I like not only in gameplay, but outside of the game too.

When Lucina was announced to be playable, I really liked her design, and I was interested in using a female character in Smash for the first time. Disappointingly, she seemed to be a clone of Marth but the "balanced damage" aspect got me interested.

Speaking from now, I've been trying to use Marth a little bit, but I actually prefer Lucina. Having difficulty killing is not new to me; Toon Link is my main, after all. I'm one of those people who do prefer that consistent damage. The lack of a tipper does not put me off; it's the lack of safety that is a bigger problem for me. If Sakurai and the development team do decide to make changes, I hope they make Lucina have the same safety on shield that Marth does. I'd be happier if made even more differences between Lucina and Marth, but meh. What can you do?

 

[ReRaze]

I actually prefer no tipper. Sure it kills early but theres also those times it never kills if you miss the tipper. Also the non tipper benefits my main kill combo which is sh dancing blade, nair into fsmash. Works every time with lucina, never kills with marth unless i somehow get a tipper. And to the people who say lucina cant kill, she is no slouch (who needs tippers?) heck I killed an offstage greninja with f-smash at 60% AFTER THE HIT I kid you not. Her shield breaker also does not need a tipper to break shields.

In reality people dont actually give you much time to space with your tipper in the heat of battle e.g day your both around kill percent, Marth needs to try get his tipper while the opponent can rush in with a non tippered kill move or grab. The tipper also throws off my combo game frome time to time by knocking the opponent too far away e.g following up for a kill with fsmash or usmash after dtilt or after a sweetspot uair. The sourspot combos better but does less damage than lucina and cant kill or gimp.

They say marth is safer on shield but it doesnt really make much of a difference imo....(this doesnt apply to characters with silly frame data like shiek who outright destryoy marth/lucina anyway)

In general i think marth just as good if not only slightly better than lucina. In a slower paced game like brawl I think I wouldve mained Marth over lucina because I actually have time to space but in smash 4 i feel things are too fast paced to actually use marth to his full potential.

(p.s. Lucina is not my waifu)

 

[Locuan]

my main kill combo which is sh dancing blade, nair into fsmash.

I'm guessing you mean aerial DB1 > first hit of N-air > F-smash. This is not a true combo, it's a string. Opponent's can get out of it after the DB1 hits.

I killed an offstage greninja with f-smash at 60% AFTER THE HIT I kid you not.

She can kill, I agree on that. However, there are a lot of factors that can go into the Greninja dying at this percentage. As you mentioned Greninja was already off-stage so it was closer to the borders of the stage itself. Did you have rage mode? Did the Greninja player DI incorrectly etc.

The sourspot combos better but does less damage than lucina and cant kill or gimp.

A Marth main knows when to switch from sour-spots to tippers etc. He can gimp just as well as Lucina can, and to get kills he has no problems with even sour-spot kills at the percentages Lucina is usually getting kills in. Additionally, Marth mains will be able to land tippers when the moment calls for it, which makes him kill at earlier percentages. Marth doesn't have trouble killing for these reasons.

In reality people dont actually give you much time to space with your tipper in the heat of battle

Then this means your opponent is dictating the battle and you where placed in a disadvantageous position. I don't have trouble spacing my moves correctly and landing tippers on my opponents to punish them for incorrect decisions or when I make the correct reads.

 

[ReRaze]

I'm guessing you mean aerial DB1 > first hit of N-air > F-smash. This is not a true combo, it's a string. Opponent's can get out of it after the DB1 hits.

She can kill, I agree on that. However, there are a lot of factors that can go into the Greninja dying at this percentage. As you mentioned Greninja was already off-stage so it was closer to the borders of the stage itself. Did you have rage mode? Did the Greninja player DI incorrectly etc.

A Marth main knows when to switch from sour-spots to tippers etc. He can gimp just as well as Lucina can, and to get kills he has no problems with even sour-spot kills at the percentages Lucina is usually getting kills in. Additionally, Marth mains will be able to land tippers when the moment calls for it, which makes him kill at earlier percentages. Marth doesn't have trouble killing for these reasons.

Then this means your opponent is dictating the battle and you where placed in a disadvantageous position. I don't have trouble spacing my moves correctly and landing tippers on my opponents to punish them for incorrect decisions or when I make the correct reads.

Never said it was a true combo figured that out against cpu but still ive yet to see someone human escape it consistently. Especially considering how quick of a string it is. Sh air dodge to nair works more consistently if i find sh dancing blade failing.

The Greninja probably died due to bad DI (better nerf him again for dying so early) but still thats pretty early it wasnt even half charged just needed an example as to how early she can kill as someone earlier mentioned she has trouble killing...

I agree there isnt really much difference but its those slight increases in knockback from a normal compared to a non sweetspot that often nets me gimps as they miss the ledge by mere pixels. (Marths tipper however is out of the question as it will most likely kill if you get an offstage tipper ). Saying he cant gimp was an overstatement on my part.

His non tippered attacks however kill really late against an opponent with good DI. Ive noticed lucina kills alot earlier even with good DI. It would be pretty interesting if someone tested the actual difference in percent.

Also it is quite difficult to space against rushdown characters with very little cooldown (e.g Most of the top tiers like shiek). Im not sure how you deal with these characters but you must be one heck of a marth if you still manage to consistently space tippers and sourspots. *tips hat*

I dont have to necessarily be in a disadvantageous position its just that when I gain momentum and start getting strings/combos and applying pressure its hard to find the time to space moves and in a game like smash every second/frame counts.

(Btw steins gate was a freaking awesome anime)

 

[Locuan]

Also it is quite difficult to space against rushdown characters with very little cooldown (e.g Most of the top tiers like shiek). Im not sure how you deal with these characters but you must be one heck of a marth if you still manage to consistently space tippers and sourspots. *tips hat*.

Wait if we are talking Shiek that's another beast entirely, it's possible and I have found myself being able to do it, but as Marcina it always feels that I am in the disadvantageous position. Against Denti's Shiek, I was able to get a stock off in some of our matches and that's only his secondary D:

(Btw steins gate was a freaking awesome anime)

Yes :3

 

[Nonno Umby]

Honestly the lack of tipper is what made me MAIN her. I played Fire Emblem Awakening before, but she wasn't my favourite (there are to many great characters in that game), but still liked her, and I was pleased that she was in Smash. I decided to main her because she was the only secret character that gave me some problem in the battle for unlock her. I tried her and it was instant love. I've never played a lot of Marth because the tipper mechanic made his movement to complex for me for being effective. I'm very happy that Sakurai separated her from Marth, and I hope she becomes a regular character in the series, like Dr. Mario.

 

[Buffoon]

Short answer: No, I dig Lucina a lot, so I'm willing to deal with the lack of a tipper.

Long answer: Some of Marth's attacks are shorter than they appear; this makes a heck of a lot harder for me to aim the tip when compared to previous games. As a result, I'm more motivated to play with Lucina.