Does Jiggs counter Falco?

[The_Marth_Madness]

My friend says she does for these reasons:

Uthrow+Rest

Falco has bad recovery, and jiggs is the one character that can exploit that the most.

She can just duck if Falco is using SHL

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

definitely not.

I'm pretty sure Uthrow + Rest can be avoided with proper DI. If not well.. just don't get hit.

You're right about the bad recovery but there are several options in order to survive.

Ducking isn't a valid option to stop SHL. SHL can be timed in order to hit ducking opponents.

Falco wins in close fight because he outranges jigglypuff while they tend to have overall even priority.

Not to mention that Falco might decide not to attack at all and Jigglypuff hasn't got a great time approaching him because of Utilt and Bair.

Falco can kill Jigglypuff at pretty low % because of his power and there are several comboing options too.

 

[NES n00b]

definitely not.

I'm pretty sure Uthrow + Rest can be avoided with proper DI. If not well.. just don't get hit.

You're right about the bad recovery but there are several options in order to survive.

Ducking isn't a valid option to stop SHL. SHL can be timed in order to hit ducking opponents.

Falco wins in close fight because he outranges jigglypuff while they tend to have overall even priority.

Not to mention that Falco might decide not to attack at all and Jigglypuff hasn't got a great time approaching him because of Utilt and Bair.

Falco can kill Jigglypuff at pretty low % because of his power and there are several comboing options too.

Actually, I think Jigglypuff is low enough to the ground that not even a standing laser can hit it. You are right anyways, nowhere near a counter. Up-throw rest works as a suprise gimp and uptilts and descending upairs can lead to rest.

Edit: my bad, Jigglypuff can get hit

 

[JesiahTEG]

Jiggs doesnt counter falco, but she can edgeguard the crap out of him.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

I just tried the SHL thing in training mode. Jigglypuff is hard to hit but it's still possible. Anyway crouching prevents jigglypuff from moving and doesn't force Falco to approach either.

 

[lexxil]

lol, i just had to think @ Brawl...
If there is a Char with a SHL like Falco, they easily can crawl... rofl ^^

Jiggz doesnt counter Falco, when jiggz gets u with an uthrow to rest at low percetentages you should survive anyway ^^ ( On the bigger stages)

And falco has powerful atacks, shl, some combo stuff...

 

[Itchi]

Falco wins. Jiggly can edgeguard and survive really good! But can be easily thrown off the stage.
Just edgeguard her back and aim well and Falco does pure pwnage.

 

[Giggidax]

i dont think jiggly counters falco, but its in favor of jigglypuff IMO. because falcos bad recovery, jigglypuff can just space WoPs untill she can land a sweetspotted bair or fsmash, or even fthrow into a gruesome edgeguard.

PLUS she can pick off an easy stock or 2 with uthrow rest combos.

falco doesnt do bad at all against jigglypuff tho, i would say about 45/55 jigglypuff

 

[Pat/Pro]

Ok lets put this whole up throw to rest stuff to bed. If your technical ability is so poor that your getting up thrown to rest than your falco isnt very good. Even if you miss the L cancel you can always DI the throw. And if you miss that on some levels you can still successfully DI the rest."

The second point is kinda flawed too. Falcos bad recovery can be exploited pretty well by everyone, its not just a jiggs thing. Most of the time if you knock a falco off the stage he aint coming back.

The SHL thing is kinda dumb too. If your whole game is ducking then you pretty much suck.

IMO its still a pretty decently close matchup.

 

[Giggidax]

Ok lets put this whole up throw to rest stuff to bed. If your technical ability is so poor that your getting up thrown to rest than your falco isnt very good. Even if you miss the L cancel you can always DI the throw. And if you miss that on some levels you can still successfully DI the rest.

uve never been uthrow rested before? sometimes u dont see it coming and u dont DI at all, sometimes ur DI can be chased at certain %'s, and sometimes u will get tricked into getting grabbed the whole game.

but getting rested at 50% will result in a kill, will result in a kill. specially on YS or FoD.

 

[Pat/Pro]

At 50% its not always a death but 95% of the time yeah. You can still hit a wall like on pokemon when the mountain part is up for example. I was talking about getting upthrown rested consistently. It shouldnt happen more than 1 time in every 3 matches at worst. If your playing a good falco your constantly attacking and the only chances he should really have are from missed L cancels which shouldnt happen. I play fox and my brother plays jiggs at a pretty high level and it almost never happens to me. Most of the rests he gets off are with uptilts and off upairs. When you take into account that matchups are based off of people playing characters at a high tournament level its not taken into account because you will almost never see a fox or falco get rested in that manner at that level.

 

[Giggidax]

umm i dont believe that. i have seen many a falco get upthrow > rested at a tournament

edit : yea if ur lucky, u can tech a wall if its there , or tech the platforms maybe. lol
but owning ur brothers jigglypuff on a daily doesnt say very much.

 

[Bailey]

Falco wins. There is so much stuff a Falco can do to a Jiggs but I am keeping my stuff secret.

 

[Pat/Pro]

Its not just my brother. I play all the top players from new england on a weekly basis and consider myself to be one so its not just me "owning my brothers jigglypuff". If a falco gets up thrown to rest more than once in a span of two games he is either having an off day or he sucks. Even Cunning Kitsune says it doesnt play a factor in his guide for fox.

The only time it should happen is if someone doesnt have alot of jiggly experience but for most of the top players in which the matchups are based off of, they do.

 

[Eggm]

Its an uphill battle from both sides, however if played close to perfect falco will come out on top. Jigglypuff is going to bank on approaching between lasers and ducking or playing an ariel game staying in the air ducking in and out with ariels and dodging lasers. Jigglypuff is going to be looking for any openings and taking the fullest advantage combos that lead to easy edge guards or rests, while falco will have to be very patient and laser camp and outprioritize with full hopped or shuffle bairs and up tilts and combo. Its very frustrating for the falco and if he gets flustered he will probably lose, because you have to like laser f tilt back air and avoid jilggypuff until the bairs kill her at like 130 while jigglypuff can kill you at any moment with a gimp kill, but falco will come out on top if he plays his cards right and remains calm, however its an uphill battle for both, if in anyones favor its falco tho just because if hes flawless theres not much jigglypuff can do, stage however can turn the tides, epically if you were counterpricked r2 with like mute city jungle japes or brinstar or something. My suggestions is to space yourself use lasers and plenty of bairs and be very patient so you don't get gimped oh and when jiggly edge stalls stay away <3

 

[Giggidax]

if the cards are played right even a pichu can win against a shiek.

im still going by my opinion that the matchup is basically 45/55 or even 40/60 jigglypuff.
falco can rip thru any character because hes a combo beast. gimping + spacing WoPs with jiggly can dominate falco

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

WoP is useless against lasers and Utilts

 

[flintstone]

falco can rip thru any character because hes a combo beast.

i actually disagree, i reckon a good marth could destroy almost any falco, unless they know what their doing, and utilise everything perfectly.
i have no other reason other than the fact marth has a huge chance in beating nearly anyone in the game

but back to the subject i reckon a good falco could beat a jigglypuff easy as long as they avoid the jiggly's critcal needs, and kill vertically instead of horizontally, cause jigglypuff can recover from huuuuuuuuge distances

 

[Pat/Pro]

^^^^^ boooo to that post.

Falcos vertical killing ability is **** near close to horrible. Plus falco vs marth is an even matchup its pretty much regarded as such by everyone.

 

[alcheato]

IMO this is a close match, but Jiggly takes it. No one's even mentioned that Jiggly can get Falco into a rest in many more ways than just u-throw: u-tilt to rest, close range pound to rest, falling uair to rest (although not too practical), and even d-throw to rest can work in the right situation. Not to mention Jiggly can punish Falco's recovery so well. Some WoP almost makes certain that anytime Falco is off the stage it has one less stock. Also most of Falco's KO moves send your opponent vertically across the stage and Jiggly's vertical recovery is the best in the game, so with good DI, Jiggs can live for quite a while.
Falco can laser spam all day and get some good combos in at the low to mid percentages, but IMO a well spaced Jiggly still beats Falco. I wouldn't say Jiggly is a counter because Falco really doesn't have any characters that it has a huge disadvantage over, but I still think Jiggly takes this match.

 

[flintstone]

lol, i guess thts me told, i still think a marth could wreck a falco most of the time, but im not saying he doesnt stand a chance.

and i know his ability is horrable, but after a nice combo, a well placed up-b (as inpractical and useless as it can be) will generally finish the job
as harder as it is, jiggly will keep coming back from horizontal knock aways for a long time, and since edge gaurding isnt the best option in the world (because of his sing ability) i think its better killing vertically
just make sure he's gonna die if u send him upwards, simple as that

 

[Pat/Pro]

Haha I think your just havent seen any really good falcos before. I dont think any good marth in the world will tell you that the matchup wasnt even if not close to even.

The only real way for falco to kill him vertically is by using a down tilt but thats too hard and risky to land. I know what you are trying to say but falcos attacks horizontally usually are strong enough and easier to kill a jiggly on every level except maybe dreamland or kongo jungle. But even then its not that bad. If you can find me a video of a good falco playing a good jiggly where he trys to kill him horizontally I would be surprised. I play fox and even though my killing vertically is 100 times better than falcos i still get kills left to right.

And alch i did mention other ways such as up air to rest and uptilt to rest etc. Those SHOULD be more common than upthrow to rest.

 

[MrBitter]

I disagree with this match up being even or close to even in Jiggs favor... I think Falco wins this one all day long. Jiggs has to approach in the air, and lasers completely shut that down. If Jiggs tries to come down on Falco, u-tilit wins the priority battle.

On top of all of that, Falco kills Jiggs at low percentages...

Yes, Jiggs can catch Falco occasionally, but occasional doesn't warrant the matchup being 50/50 IMO.

 

[mathos]

I disagree with this match up being even or close to even in Jiggs favor... I think Falco wins this one all day long.

You a very silly man. Lasers only frustrate a jiggs, and a good jiggs won't be affected by lasers so much, proper spacing by jiggs negates utilt potential. With that said its still even.

 

[invertigo]

I DISAGREE. i hate jiggs. i think jiggs owns falco.

1. uthrow-> rest. yeah yeah just DI. easier said than done. only chance i stand is to not get grabbed but it WILL happen.

2. falco's recovery. we dont have a chance once were knocked off.

3. falco has no good vertical killer. fox doesnt have nearly as much trouble because of his uthrow->uair and usmashes.

4. jiggs is one of the most impervious to lasers

5. falco has great horizontal killing. too bad jiggs is the best in the game at recovering.

6. WoP

7. jiggs has decent priority over alot of falco's moves. not that much though.

you guys can tell i hate jiggs. im well aware that im exaggerating the disadvantage we have. i suck vs jiggs.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

You a very silly man. Lasers only frustrate a jiggs, and a good jiggs won't be affected by lasers so much, proper spacing by jiggs negates utilt potential. With that said its still even.

what kind of stuff can a good jigglypuff pull out in order to stop lasers?

Also I don't think Jigglypuff can do anything but pound in order to screw Utilts.. they've got about the same priority of every jiggly aerial, but more range.

I agree it's an even match but with a slight advantage in Falco's favor.

 

[Giggidax]

i actually disagree, i reckon a good marth could destroy almost any falco, unless they know what their doing, and utilise everything perfectly.
i have no other reason other than the fact marth has a huge chance in beating nearly anyone in the game

but back to the subject i reckon a good falco could beat a jigglypuff easy as long as they avoid the jiggly's critcal needs, and kill vertically instead of horizontally, cause jigglypuff can recover from huuuuuuuuge distances

a good marth could destroy a falco, and a good falco can destroy a marth. bombsoldier vs ken for example... these matches are overly used for the marth vs falco matchup btw lol! marth does not completely own falco. the matchup is even

but yes, jiggs can ezily duck the lasers, and when u try and laser close to the ground jiggs can ezily float over them. rest combos in general will own falco, not jus the uthrow urest combo.
ur best bet to kill jiggly is to fsmash, dtilt, or dair spikes.


EDIT: falcos utilt isnt really an 'anti-jigglypuff' attack. jigglypuff can jus outprioritize with a grab :-\ but putting aside the ifs, or's, and but's, jiggly does fairly good in the matchup i would say

 

[mathos]

what kind of stuff can a good jigglypuff pull out in order to stop lasers?

Also I don't think Jigglypuff can do anything but pound in order to screw Utilts.. they've got about the same priority of every jiggly aerial, but more range.

I agree it's an even match but with a slight advantage in Falco's favor.

Jiggs has 5 jumps so getting hit with a few lasers isn't going to stop her from doing anything, especially since it'll take Falco more time to recover in most instances.

And a correctly spaced bair will destroy an utilt.

 

[invertigo]

yeah. i never said he could stop lasers, i just said that lasers are less effective on jiggs..

and jiggs usually kills falco at lower percentages than viceversa.

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Jiggs has 5 jumps so getting hit with a few lasers isn't going to stop her from doing anything, especially since it'll take Falco more time to recover in most instances.

And a correctly spaced bair will destroy an utilt.

still I'm not convinced about Utilt VS Bair.. I'll just check that out as soon as possible.

I'm not catching the advantage of jigglypuff in having 5 jumps when it comes to stop lasers.. when a laser hits jigglypuff first of all jigglypuff gets turned on the wrong side to use WoP Bair and besides this she gets stunned in lag. I can't see how jumping would help jigglypuff.

And Falco's recover from lasering is instantaneous, he gets no lag when he lands.

 

[Giggidax]

jigglypuffs stretchy bair legs is like a disjointed hitbox O_O lol not really, but it can go through attacks if spaced right. thats 1 reason why jigglypuff is an annoying opponent.

anyway, to answer this threads question, jigglypuff does not counterz falc0 IMO

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

jiggs does well against certain falcos play style, obviously if falco just camps and lasers it will be hard for jiggs to approach, but its not impossible, and not all falcos play gay like that. Also, on virtually any stage with platforms, an up throw to tech chase when they hit the platform should land in a rest everytime, look at some darc videos for that. ditto edgeguarding, also, i didnt read every post, but i do want to make note of the fact that an uptilt from jiggs is an automatic rest, cause DI doesnt do anything and jiggs doesnt even have to jump because falco falls so fast. So, if falco is giving u trouble with other characters, jiggs might be the way to go because catching up/ getting ahead is somewhat simple

 

[g0nz02]

Not to mention the fact that it's so **** hard to shine combo a Jiggs. They easily get out of your shine-dair at around 80%, and even then it's hard to shine-shine-bair.

I hate the matchup, but I'd give it around 55/45 Jiggs.

 

[-Darc-]

EDIT: WRONG BOARDS. HERE'S SOME STRATS JIGGS HAS AGAINST YOU

look at some darc videos

noooo don't >_>

I think my only match recorded with a falco was th0rn and I got my socks rocked, so whatever you do. Don't look at that one. Look at some teams vids or something >_>

hmmm.....
What to do against Falco. I guess...refrain from pound recovering close to the edge. That's a free spike for the falco. You can do it if you're REALLY confident

The up-throw tech chase is funny. You just have to know where they will tech. Most tech left or right when they have time to plan, but in the heat of the moment they will tech neutral. I would advise not going for the rest at the neutral tech unless you know your ****. They will get used to this and try to change it up, so be aware.

To get an up-throw rest off possible will be hard. Try to get a surprise grab and don't try to jab. Go immediately from the grab to an up-throw. You might get it. You could also combo into a throw which is sometimes surprising. U-air grab is my favorite.

As always **** their recovery. Change up your style to edgeguard as well. They will get used to just following. You have a bunch of options.
Stay-->dsmash/fsmash/running attack
Run off --> fair/nair/bair (change where you position yourself unless you're confident. Always react.)
and a simple edgehog might work sometimes, but be sure to remember to meteor cancel if you get hit.

Your approach:

I guess....
Get in close and start WoPing. Mix in some uairs if you wish and combo from there. I'm not really good at approaching. I'm kind of confused what I would do. Don't shield grab those dairs unless you see their lag. Don't be afraid to roll. Just don't spam it. Get him off the ledge.

These are just some ideas. I might even be talking out of my *** since I basically do stuff from instinct.

You don't have to read this. It might be totally wrong, but I believe this is what I do, in words.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gjUD5gmU27I

at 1:08 and 1:55 you see rests off platform techs, i know this a vid against fox, but it works against falco as well

 

[Lightshade]

just don't get hit.

Just take Isai's advice, right? That always works.
I'd have to say no on the Jigglypuff-counter discussion. Jigglypuff isn't a counter for the following reasons:

-Falco's power
-Flys far with low % damage
-Proper DI with Falco can exclude him from the "U-Throw+ Rest" combo

Do I need any more for anyone to see my point?

 

[x4FoSho4x]

i say its 50/50 if not its in jiggz favor. people do get u-thorw rested, trust me. i kno. im a ny player and play with some of the best bum wes etc on a daily basses and it DOES work. but not all the time.

 

[Miharu]

Only reason uthrow rest works is people don't react fast enough to the initial uthrow, so they get rested. But once they're expecting it, it's **** hard to pull off.

With proper spacing, Falco definitely has the upper hand on jiggs. I'd give the matchup a 60/40 in Falco's faver, just due to tilts for spacing, and fairly early kills on most stages. UpB killst at around 120% on FD >.>

 

[Jem.]

Up-throw rest and back-a aerial edge guards is Jiggly's only chance.