Does being playable in Smash immortalize characters that would otherwise fall off? If so, to what degree?

[Quillion]

In my opinion, it was possible in the early days of Smash (64, Melee, Brawl to a lesser extent), seeing as we've seen things like Fire Emblem get out of Japan, Mr. Game and Watch getting into the last G&W Gallery, and Pit getting a one-time revival. There's also smaller-scale things like Zelda becoming Sheik for Hyrule Warriors and Jigglypuff remaining a marketing semi-regular long after its anime incarnation's tenure ended.

But with Smash 4-on, it seems near-impossible for characters to be immortalized beyond "just there in Smash". Most of the newcomers since then are already popular to begin with rather than obscure or flavor-of-the-month, and those that are the latter seem to be lost in the fold. We've definitely seen Incineroar and Min Min fall off, and with Nintendo getting more involved in selection, it's unlikely we'll see much more characters with fall-off potential.

Of course, I'm only talking about how characters still appear in their series or their series' marketing. I'm not overly concerned with how they fare in their fanbases considering how unstable that status is. That said, status in fanbase can still be discussed here (not that I can stop it).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Incineroar really hasn't fallen off. It's still used in marketing and whatnot.

And how has Min Min fallen off when someone like Ness or Captain Falcon haven't? They're now the de facto character for their franchise.

 

[Quillion]

Incineroar really hasn't fallen off. It's still used in marketing and whatnot.

Really? I thought Incineroar has already been overshadowed by the later fire starters.

And how has Min Min fallen off when someone like Ness or Captain Falcon haven't? They're now the de facto character for their franchise.

Min Min has fallen off along with her potential franchise.

At least EarthBound is getting a bit more merch thanks to Itoi's company while elements of F-Zero get to appear in other games outside of Smash like Mario Kart.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of the issue with Smash is that it has shifted towards the superstars of gaming model which doesn't tend to include characters from non-relevant franchises. Even Piranha Plant, the big WTF character wasn't unknown, just surprising. Moreover stuff like Fire Emblem, (ongoing Japanese only franchises with little presence in the West) have become rarer over time, with even old IP's like Famicom Detective Club being plucked from obscurity not via Smash appearances, but with games. Even the recent announcement of a Super Mario RPG remake has ironically fulfilled one the reasons people wanted him in SSB; as a chance for a system locked game to be better immortalized in contemporary way.

The most realistic option for elevating otherwise forgotten characters/series is via third parties, but that and of itself is unlikely because the most favorable selections tend to be popular ones that are very often still semi-active. Banjo-Kazooie is the closest recent Smash has gotten to bringing the spotlight to a franchise laying low and even that was ironically because there was still an active fandom for them. Its a self fulfilling prophecy in a way, the characters that would most benefit from SSB inclusion in terms of relevance are the ones low on the list of fan campaigning and/or consideration because of such irrelevance.

Future exceptions might very well come down to personal preferences of Sakurai or whoever replaces him.

 

[Quillion]

Part of the issue with Smash is that it has shifted towards the superstars of gaming model which doesn't tend to include characters from non-relevant franchises. Even Piranha Plant, the big WTF character wasn't unknown, just surprising. Moreover stuff like Fire Emblem, (ongoing Japanese only franchises with little presence in the West) have become rarer over time, with even old IP's like Famicom Detective Club being plucked from obscurity not via Smash appearances, but with games. Even the recent announcement of a Super Mario RPG remake has ironically fulfilled one the reasons people wanted him in SSB; as a chance for a system locked game to be better immortalized in contemporary way.

The most realistic option for elevating otherwise forgotten characters/series is via third parties, but that and of itself is unlikely because the most favorable selections tend to be popular ones that are very often still semi-active. Banjo-Kazooie is the closest recent Smash has gotten to bringing the spotlight to a franchise laying low and even that was ironically because there was still an active fandom for them. Its a self fulfilling prophecy in a way, the characters that would most benefit from SSB inclusion in terms of relevance are the ones low on the list of fan campaigning and/or consideration because of such irrelevance.

Future exceptions might very well come down to personal preferences of Sakurai or whoever replaces him.

What would you say about characters that would be flavor-of-the-month at the time of inclusion yet fall off afterwards like Min Min?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

What would you say about characters that would be flavor-of-the-month at the time of inclusion yet fall off afterwards like Min Min?

Its hard to say because the flavor of the month variety characters have been rare and its not been quite long enough for a legacy/history to really develop with them vs. their placement in Smash. Pokemon always have some evergreen status by the nature of the series and the (semi) continuing nature of gotta catch em all while Fire Emblem references its own legacy enough that a Roy still won't feel wholly out of place. Min Min and Wii Fit Trainer are the two characters that feel most like they were included because of (at the time) notability, but even the latter can only now be said to have a series that's truly fallen off, given how much things are up in the air for a potential ARMS sequel.

There is a quasi-immortality to such characters, but its something that can be impacted by the lack of future games for them and a likely cut in future Smash titles. The status granted to them feels like it has a limit given the surrounding context of their franchises especially when they can't be said to as tie in as strongly to Nintendo's early history like a Game and Watch, ROB, or Duck Hunt.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Considering ARMS sold over 2 million copies and was a success, a sequel is guaranteed so calling Min Min a flavour of the month isn’t correct.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy in a way, the characters that would most benefit from SSB inclusion in terms of relevance are the ones low on the list of fan campaigning and/or consideration because of such irrelevance.

It’s also pretty telling the only times a character got in to advertise a game in the recent Smash games were for those titles that ironically didn’t need it. The “advertisement slot” for Smash 4 DLC could have gone to Chibi-Robo or Xenoblade X since those franchises could have used that boost more but it went to Fire Emblem Fates. The rich does get richer.

 

[Opossum]

The internet's insistence that ARMS did a lot worse than it actually did continues to be really annoying.

 

[Quillion]

The internet's insistence that ARMS did a lot worse than it actually did continues to be really annoying.

I don't know about ARMS though. I personally think it's a worthy attempt to breathe new life into the rather stagnant fighting game genre AND I know it sold over 2 million, but isn't six years enough to call it a stillborn franchise?

Wii Fit has definitely fallen off, though its spirit at least lives on through Ring Fit.

It’s also pretty telling the only times a character got in to advertise a game in the recent Smash games were for those titles that ironically didn’t need it. The “advertisement slot” for Smash 4 DLC could have gone to Chibi-Robo or Xenoblade X since those franchises could have used that boost more but it went to Fire Emblem Fates. The rich does get richer.

Would Chibi-Robo even be viable advertising fodder at that point? It was already consigned to limited-release handheld titles by that point.

In all honesty, it seems like the solution is for Nintendo to make new major IPs around Smash's release, but that's probably not going to work either due to interference.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The internet's insistence that ARMS did a lot worse than it actually did continues to be really annoying.

I think it's just mostly that it didn't have that great of an online fan following explaining why people think it did worse than it actually did.

 

[Quillion]

Enough about ARMS; can anyone confirm that the Litten line has appeared in marketing since the Galar era?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Enough about ARMS; can anyone confirm that the Litten line has appeared in marketing since the Galar era?

Ash's Incineroar was one of his Pokemon that got to appear in his 11 episode sendoff as a member of his team. Most of his Pokemon only got short cameos. (Greninja didn't even appear.)

There was just a Litten line event centered event on Pokemon Go. (I participated in it.)

Pokemon Masters added Incineroar and the Masked Royal as a sync pair well into Gen 8.

Pokemon generally don't get marketed much past their initial generation. Greninja is one of the most popular Pokemon of all time and it fell off hard after Ash Greninja, with it's only real marketing being as the generation started. Incineroar has done a lot better than most. Yeah Decidueye gets used a lot more in spinoffs like Pokken and Unite but Incineroar is still used.

Besides, when you say marketing, what do you mean exactly? Future appearances?

 

[Quillion]

Ash's Incineroar was one of his Pokemon that got to appear in his 11 episode sendoff as a member of his team. Most of his Pokemon only got short cameos. (Greninja didn't even appear.)

There was just a Litten line event centered event on Pokemon Go. (I participated in it.)

Pokemon Masters added Incineroar and the Masked Royal as a sync pair well into Gen 8.

Pokemon generally don't get marketed much past their initial generation. Greninja is one of the most popular Pokemon of all time and it fell off hard after Ash Greninja, with it's only real marketing being as the generation started. Incineroar has done a lot better than most. Yeah Decidueye gets used a lot more in spinoffs like Pokken and Unite but Incineroar is still used.

Touché, though it seems that Greninja fell off rather than Incineroar.

Besides, when you say marketing, what do you mean exactly? Future appearances?

When I say marketing, yes, I mean future appearances in advertisements and any other supplemental material.

Though as I said in the OP, I personally think a character doesn't fall off if they appear either in-series or in marketing.

 

[Oracle Link]

Yes 100% Especially with (Former) retro series like ice climber and kid icarus!
But the same can be said about Shiek (God damnit diffrent pronunciations) Sheik she appeared in one game of TLOZ Were she was the disguise for a far more important Character and that concept was used again with tetra for atleast 2 games!
I mean its saying something when this nothing disguise gets picked over toon link or impa in a lot of cases!
The LAst time impa got a figure was during: OOTS RELAEASE Meanwhile sheik got a amiibo and a ctionfigure which by zelda standarts is a ton!
also Sheik was in Tekken tag 2 with the triforce 3, in scribblenauts unlimited on switch
And Heck tons of people would rather see Sheik than toon link or impa in smash!

 

[Aligo]

The very simple answer is that yes, it still does act as quasi-immortality, it is just that people simply don't regard this as much due to the wider range of franchises, and due to being in a older generation. To be fair some characters have benefited far more than others, with Xenoblade and FE being big winners.

If smash can make people consider ice climbers in any capacity, which it does, it becomes more apparent how impactful representation can be.

 

[Quillion]

Yes 100% Especially with (Former) retro series like ice climber and kid icarus!
But the same can be said about Shiek (God damnit diffrent pronunciations) Sheik she appeared in one game of TLOZ Were she was the disguise for a far more important Character and that concept was used again with tetra for atleast 2 games!
I mean its saying something when this nothing disguise gets picked over toon link or impa in a lot of cases!
The LAst time impa got a figure was during: OOTS RELAEASE Meanwhile sheik got a amiibo and a ctionfigure which by zelda standarts is a ton!
also Sheik was in Tekken tag 2 with the triforce 3, in scribblenauts unlimited on switch
And Heck tons of people would rather see Sheik than toon link or impa in smash!

Didn't know that Sheik keeps making some appearances past OoT.

That said, it seems clear that Tetra has surpassed Sheik in terms of main games alone.

The very simple answer is that yes, it still does act as quasi-immortality, it is just that people simply don't regard this as much due to the wider range of franchises, and due to being in a older generation. To be fair some characters have benefited far more than others, with Xenoblade and FE being big winners.

If smash can make people consider ice climbers in any capacity, which it does, it becomes more apparent how impactful representation can be.

It appears that Smash makes everyone but Nintendo themselves (their partners included) care about Ice Climber.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In a way, Smash does keep these characters alive. Captain Falcon might be the best example. Smash is his only consistent appearance, even keeps the demand of a new game alive. Ness, Lucas and Sheik are also good examples. Maybe eventually Fox, Falco and Wolf too...

Of course the retro characters too but that's their given purpose.

 

[Lenidem]

In my opinion, it was possible in the early days of Smash (64, Melee, Brawl to a lesser extent), seeing as we've seen things like Fire Emblem get out of Japan, Mr. Game and Watch getting into the last G&W Gallery, and Pit getting a one-time revival. There's also smaller-scale things like Zelda becoming Sheik for Hyrule Warriors

I'm pretty sure Sheik being playable in Hyrule Warriors as nothing to do with his presence in Smash. It's Zelda's first "secret identity", and it's too cool and too useful story-wise to be ignored. I mean, Agitha was playable in the base game...

 

[Quillion]

I'm pretty sure Sheik being playable in Hyrule Warriors as nothing to do with his presence in Smash. It's Zelda's first "secret identity", and it's too cool and too useful story-wise to be ignored. I mean, Agitha was playable in the base game...

IDK, it still really says something that Sheik was never revisited in a main game while Tetra remained fairly prominent throughout the "Wind Saga". They may have planned to revisit the Sheik identity at some points, but they've wisely decided to leave it to OoT.

Then again, there's the whole debate on whether the other two games in the "Wind Saga" were necessary...

 

[FazDude]

If anyone's been immortalized through Smash, it's Captain Falcon. Yes, he hasn't had a new game in a long while, but the Falcon Punch has cemented itself as a general gaming meme that you don't have to be super involved with the Smash community to understand,

 

[Lenidem]

IDK, it still really says something that Sheik was never revisited in a main game while Tetra remained fairly prominent throughout the "Wind Saga". They may have planned to revisit the Sheik identity at some points, but they've wisely decided to leave it to OoT.

Then again, there's the whole debate on whether the other two games in the "Wind Saga" were necessary...

Well, if there is a "Time saga", it's just two games, and in the second one, its Zelda only appears in a flash-back and as a child. Includig Sheik in any other game would have been really forced. Besides, Tetra is the basic identity of the character: she is as surprised as Link (and arguably more than the player) to find out that she is princess Zelda and goes back to her normal self as soon as she can. It's the opposite for the "princess of Time".