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Doctorjuice's Zero Suit Samus Guide

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
ZSS Guide
by DoctorJuice


The original guide can be found here:
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=10545
-----------------------------------------

Things left to add:
Advanced Teching: I would like some assistance on this as I am not familiar with a lot of terminology used on the forums and whatnot. Please message me if you are familiar with a lot of the advanced techniques and would like to help =)
FINAL SMASH
MISCELLANEOUS
GOOD AND BAD CHARACTERS


Updates:

7/01/08:A big thanks goes out to deliciouscake who did some editing and added some much needed color to the guide. Go cake!
6/28/08: After a long period of time I've come back to completing this guide. Added stage matchups though it is only the neutral stages right now. Will add more stages soon. Also took out a couple screenshots and made the text smaller for size restrictions.
5/11/08: Have added armor pieces, taunt input, and the future of ZSS sections.


~Table of Contents~

  1. Introduction
  2. Pros and Cons
  3. Move Sets
    • Ground Attacks
    • Smash Attacks
    • Special Attacks
    • Aerial Attacks
    • Grabs
  4. Recovery REDONE!
  5. Stage Matchups NEW!
  6. Armor Pieces
  7. Down Smash
    • Down Smash Chain
  8. Taunt Input
  9. Mind Games and Strategies:
    • Aproaching
    • Aproaching with Aerials
  10. Spacing Using Side B
  11. Videos
  12. The Future of Zero Suit Samus
  13. About Me


1. --------~Introduction~--------

Ok so we all know Zero Suit Samus isn't exactly a well known character. Many people only look at the surface of her but never really look any deeper than that. On the surface she has average aerials, average ground attacks, good recovery that's easily edgehogged, and lacks a good finisher besides her side B which is only an average finisher. That's how she looks on the surface, but dive a little deeper and you might find a character of epic propertions that suits your playing style. That's what I found anyway =)

So what is ZSS like on the inside? In short she's a fast agile character who can use a lot of mind games. Her aerials are good once you get a feel for them and are great for juggling. Her stun attacks have amazing potential and can set you up for many combos. Her side B is great for spacing and is very decent finisher. What ZSS is really about is precision. Precision and mind games. Exact precision takes a lot of practice and mind games of hers require a lot of concentration and you need a good head on your shoulders for that. You need a lot of experience with her to actually play well competitively. That is why we do not see many zss players. There is an extreme learning curve, but there is also a huge potential! ZSS is for intelligent players that want to take control of the opponent! That means to become real good there's no tentativeness, no easy spamming, no camping, all skill.

PROS: Combo friendly moves, stunning with her B attack and down smash (Stunning is amazing by the way!), very good combo friendly aerials, has a huge potential in mind games, can grab out of air (more on grabs later), side B is a good finisher and also makes for a really good spacing game, good recovery, has a third jump (her down B attack which can also be used for a spike)

CONS: Her short hop is so terrible you can barely hit a person when he's standing on level ground with you without waiting to fall down first, recovery is tether so can be easily edge hogged, she's very light so can be killed at fairly low percentages, lacks a good finisher (Side B can't guarantee a kill even if they are hit at 130%), all her spikes are hard to use and are often suicidal, her down aerial is completely suicidal


2. --------~Move Sets~--------


Ground Attacks:

Standard A



Damage: 2%, 2%, 3%
This move is good in some ways and terrible in others. The attack can't combo into each other, little to no knock back, oh and whats this?! The third attack can be shielded or jabbed! Two punches then shield and the opponent can grab you and you're wide open. However, not many people know this too well and if they're not going to expect it unless they're aware when you're going to use this attack. Its very good out of sheids though and with 7% damage do a couple of these here and there, and you can rack up a little bit of damage with this move.

Dash Attack

Damage: 7%
A quick move that can easily be followed up by another attack. It is speedy, can catch people off guard, and is generally a good move. Beware of shield grabs, though, something that happens a lot with this attack.

Forward tilt


Damage: 6%, 9% when tilted slightly downwards
I use this move a lot and it is pretty quick and has little lag. It can create an opening and can set you up for a lot of moves. Use it when you're in a tight situation and you need to use a quick move. If you tilt it slightly downwards it will do 9% damage and have slightly more knock back.

Down tilt


Damage: 6%
This move is great for setting up a string of aerials. You can use it when the opponent is stunned and much like Forward tilt it is quick and has little lag. Use this often as well.

Up tilt


Damage: 5%, 6%
This move is good when following a string of combos. It does quite a bit of damage and his great for setting up for strings of aerials, it can be used out of a stun and is fairly quick. Has little lag as well.

Smashes:

Forward Smash


Damage: 11%, 6% when hit behind
This move is quite slow and laggy. I don't like it that well but it has its uses. It has little knockback at low percents, and at high percents it has fair enough knockback to have the ablilty kill at 130% or so. It hits from behind as well so you could use it to cover you're back and front in a very specific situation. It is VERY laggy and can be punished very very badly. It has a huge risk when using it at high enough percentages. Use side B as a finisher way more often as it can't really be punished plus side B has more knockback than this. Bottom line, bad move.

Up Smash



Damage:
4%, 3%, rest 1%

This move is great! It does a lot of damage (for ZSS standards), can be dashed into, and is great right after a downsmash. Practice this move a lot and use it often. It is very good for charging because if they try to jump over you they might get hit, if they try to shield then attack then they will get hit by the last frame or so (which will launch them up in the air). A great attack that should be used often.

Down Smash



Damage: 11%
This is one of ZSS's best moves. It can be used twice in a row for 22% damage and then followed up my an upsmash for more damage and a string of aerials! It can be used to stop a dashing foe in his tracks. Try to use it in pairs because you can always land the second one. Use the C-stick for this move. You can trap fox in a guarenteed combo up to 58% with this move as well. There are huge possibilities for this move and I will go into precise detail later in the guide. Use this as often as possible without being predictable.

Specials:

Standard B


Damage: 4%, 6% (charged)

This is a good move of zss. It has a charged shot and a regular shot. It stuns and is ranged. Because of the stun it can be used at a person rushing towards you and then followed up for a dash attack or grab. It is great for rushing as well. It can block projectiles coming your way also. It is a pretty good move.

Side B



Damage: 3% (first part of whip), 16% (the sweetspot)
This is another one of zss's best moves. It does 16% when sweet spotted and can kill at good percentages. This move you should use for most of your KOs. It also makes for a great spacing game which I will go into more detail about more. If they are close to you and you just need to get them away you can use this move. There is very little lag with this move and can be used with little risk. A very good move.

Up B


Damage: 3%, 3%, 3%, 6%
There are two sides of this move. It can be used for recovery of course. The recovery range is pretty darn good but there is a problem its a tether recovery. That means that if you are being edgehogged it can do little for you. But it can also be used regularly on the ground or when you're not near a ledge. The attack is great for combos. Use it on someone and it will bring them down the the ground if in the air, or if they are on the ground it will usually bring them up and then down again. Use this after a up tilt, when they are coming down, or if they are on a platform (it can go through platforms and the ground). It can also be used as a spike. If you are on the ground and use it follow with an up tilt, up smash, down smash, forward tilt, another up B basically anything. Great when used on the ground.

Down B


Damage: 12%
This is a very godly move. Why? It can be used as a third jump, it has invinciblity frames, has it's own automatic wall jump, and the kick that you can use after the jump part is incredibly good. The knockback is really really good and can be used as a great spike for edgeguarders. It can be used as any kind of dodge. I will go into more detail
about this move later. Use it very often.

Aerials:

Neutral Aerial



Damage: 10 %
This move is very quick with very little lag. Kinda useful, pretty good range. Use it the way you think is needed it really all comes down to your style.

Forward Aerial


Damage: 6%, 11%
This move has two hits. The knock back of this move is great for the second kick, the first kick not so much. You have to time it right for it to be successful. Not too reliable but a pretty good move.

Back Aerial


Damage: 13%
With only one it this does less damage than the forward aerial and less knockback. Although, I think this move is much more reliable and much easier to hit with. I'd say its a little better than the forward aerial.

Up Aerial


Damage: 10%
This move is one of zss's best aerial moves. It is quite good knock back and his very quick. Use many of these in succession with each other to rack up some damage. You can also easily kill with this move at high percentages. Great for juggling.

Down Aerial



Damage: 5%, 5%
Uhhh...this move is terrible and suicidal. Never use this when you are recovering or off the stage, cause you'll plummet to your death if you do. Not very useful at all. Don't use this move much it is very bad.

Grabs:
Zero Suit's grab's are pretty useless for the most part. I don't use many because the lag of her grab is severe and can be punished severely. Only use a grab if you are very sure that it will grab the person. Can grab out of air.

Forward Grab


Damage: 9%
Pretty good grab use it then dash towards the person and use it again. Ok for setups not that useful though in my opinion.

Back Grab



Damage: 6%
I don't really find much use for this so I don't use it.

Up Grab


Damage: 10%
I suppose you could use this grab for a setup of aerials but you'd be better off using the down grab for that.

Down Grab



Damage: 6%
One of the only grabs I really use. Use it quickly and then quickly jump up for an aerial, or upsmash, or up b.


4. --------~Recovery~--------


ZSS has a very good and unique recovery. That of course is the tether recovery. The down B jump adds to her recovery game. Now some may say the tether recovery is a bad thing. I suppose in way way it is, but it is so long ranged and such a good recovery move that it doesn't really matter. That is unless you make some fatal mistakes. Let's begin with how you get knocked away from the stage in the first place. ZSS has very good DI when it comes to recovering. Every time you get hit off the stage I suggest air-dodging immediately while keeping that control stick pushed in the direction you want to go. I believe the air-dodge cancels out some of the momentum that you don't want. So always air-dodge when you are getting hit off the stage immediately after you get hit. Now here are a couple of things you don't want to happen. One is you don't want to try to do is tether recover under the stage. It's best to try to tether using side B. Try to imagine the opponent is always hanging on to that ledge. One thing I see new ZSS players doing wrong is not using the down B and waiting until they get under the stage to use their tether. Then they get edgehogged for an easy kill. Doing that is a no no. Now about when to use down B. Your down B is a vital move. It's good use your down B when recovering but only when necessary because you can only use it once until you hit the ground again. If they hit you back out before you hit the ground and after you've already used it then you're pretty much screwed if they're not stupid. Now a couple things to do when you're in the danger area. If they're edgehogging you and you're just out of range of recovering with your down B use the down B kick. If they don't roll back onto the stage then you'll hit them and they're spiked and dead. If they roll back onto the edge...well then you're still good cause you'll have recovered. Remember to use your up B as soon as you can after the kick because if you don't you might just barely miss and die. If you've somehow ended up slightly under the person you can either use Up B to get them off there or use the down B wall jump (not available on all the stages) to reposition yourself and use the tactic I explained above OR up B to get them off. If you've somehow put yourself in the position of being below the opponent and down B is useless then your pretty much dead but you can still try to take the opponent with you right? Use up B to try to bring them down. If they roll back up at the right moment then they've done what they were supposed to do and you're screwed. Regardless, make your best efforts to stay out of those positions. You don't want to be under the ledge.
5. --------~Stage Matchups~--------

Battle Field

This stage is real good for zss. Nice and flat, the flatter the better when it comes to her, the platforms make it much easier to string your aerial combos. The platforms add a huge advantage in other ways as well. Your up B game is taken to the next level here: If your opponent is on a platform above you, you are able to use it two times without them escaping usually. Then follow up with an uair and you've set them up for a string of aerials. Also up B can reach up to top platform as well. If you are stuck on a platform and someone is below you be careful. If they are about to attack (they usually go for an upsmash) sheild, look for an opening, then drop down and attempt to bair them. You can travel under the stage as well but I don't see any good use for this for if they edgeguard you you're screwed.
Pros
-Platforms
-Nice and flat
-Good potential for Up B
Cons
-Small and because ZSS is light this can be a bad thing in some situations
-If you get stuck on a platform above someone it can be bad

Final Destination

This stage has some good advantages for ZSS. Completely flat and the best stage for your armor pieces. If you throw it from the place where you start off it will still stay on the stage. A good strategy for your armor pieces here is to try and get two pieces down near your oponent but still completely in your possession. Throw a piece downward to limit their options and then use stun gun or side B to limit their options even more. If you do these correctly then you pretty much know what your opponent is going to do. Then just predict and time correctly, throw your other piece, repeat and you'll be at a 100% damage advantage in no time. This stage also opens up many spacing options with your side B. It's big, it's flat, and great for spacing! If you are recovering you can use the down B wall jump at the spot right under the ledge.Beware of spammers, though, because this stage is great for them as well!
Pros
-Great for spacing
-Flat and big
-Best stage for your armor pieces
-Down B wall jump under the ledge
Cons
-Opens up lots of options for spammers and campers
-No platforms

Smashville

Much like Final Destination. Flat, pretty big, good for your armor pieces game. The platform makes a difference though. It can help out a lot such as if you don't won't to deal with someone guarding the edge when you are recovering. If there is someone like Link (with his down aerial) or Pikachu (with its thunder attack) and they are up in the air you may want to play it safe and hide under that platform until there is an opening. It is also a great counter to someone spamming projectiles.
Pros
-Good for spacing
-Flat and big
-Platform helps out a whole lot
-Good for your armor pieces
Cons
-You could say that this doesn't give as much of an advantage as you may want

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

The ground here is a little rough not good for you pieces game as they may take some funny bounces. Not as big as you may want. The platform above you isn't too good for your pieces game either. Although, this platform is great for landing aerials and works wonders with your up B. There is a big wall underneath the edge so you can wall jump anywhere on that wall. If there is a person recovering upwards from that wall bair them and they're pretty much dead. Being stuck on that platform is worse than being stuck on BF's platforms because it is usually not as elevated. This give your opponent more options to hit you from there.
Pros
-Good for your up B
-Platform can be to your advantage
-Wall under ledge
Cons
-Bumpy ground is bad for armor pieces
-Platform can be your to your disadvantage as well

Stages left to add:
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Delphino Plaza



6. --------~Armor Pieces~--------

These little babies are a great way to start off the match. They can be used and rack up a lot of damage very quickly, have great knock back, and, unfortunately, can be turned against you. Here's a couple things to make sure they work for you and don't end up in the wrong hands. The way I start off is I keep on throwing them down and randomly throw a piece at them. You can pick up a piece and wait for them to shield or roll. If they shield wait for it deplete and they will have to eventually go after you. If they roll in the middle of their roll throw one and it will hit them. Immediately charge with another, throw it at them, pick up the other one that hit them run up to them and throw it downwards. If the piece is still bouncing they and they run into it they will get hurt. That can create an opening for you. If they are using a reflector run up towards them with the piece, throw it, and shield. It will bounce of your shield and the opponent will usually try to charge you. Use your downsmash and work wonders. Now if they accidently get into the wrong hands it's best to shield when you think they're about to throw it at you or jump over them. Also in case you didn't know, doing an air dodge will catch it. There are many strategies with these pieces, but really you just got to think of them on your own =)



7. --------~Down Smash~--------

Ok so you know this move is godly. If you play as ZSS you chances are you LOVE this move. So let's learn of few proper techniques shall we? Right now I'm in the habit of always doing this move in pairs. That means if I use it then I immediately use it again afterwards. Why this habit? Well at any percentage you are guarenteed a second downsmash. Now sometime you may not want to take that risk if perhaps you are going to follow it up with a grab. If you do it twice then there's a chance that you may not grab them and then you'll be open for an attack or two. Usually they wouldn't expect you of doing this though and probably not have the reaction time to actually punish you (the worst they could usually do is a dash attack or grab probably not a smash). So I say use this move in pairs. A couple follow ups you can do are:

Double Down Smash>>>Dash into up smash>>>A string of aerials

Double Down Smash>>>Down Grab>>>A string of aerials

Double Down Smash>>>Down Grab>>>Up B>>>Double Down Smash**

Double Down Smash>>>Down Grab>>>Up B>>>Up Tilt>>>String of Aerials**

DDS>>>Dash Attack>>>Whatever move you are in position to do

DDS>>>Up tilt>>>A string of aerials**

DDS>>>Up B>>>Up B**

Single DS>>>Side B (At high percentagees)-Kill move

Single DS>>>Back Aerial (At high percentages)-kill move

Single DS>>>Down B Kick (At high percentages)-kill move

Single DS (when opponent is hanging on ledge)>>>down B Kick-Perfect Spike
**Can be pretty easily DIed out of


...And so on and so on. Experiment with this and come up with your own strategies and combos. Now the hard part of this move is landing it. Whenever a person is rolling towards you use it. Whenever they are dashing towards you use it. Whenever they are hanging on ledge use it. If you are on a platform and they are about to land an aerial on you, use it. Use it often without being predictable. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT: IF YOU ARE TOO PREDICTABLE THEY WILL START PREDICTING YOUR GAME AND PUNISH YOU FOR IT. ALWAYS MIX THINGS UP A WHOLE LOT AND USE A BUNCH OF OTHER MOVES. NEVER LET YOUR GAME REVOLVE AROUND THE DOWN SMASH ATTACK. LEARN MANY STRATEGIES AND USE THEM ALL EVENLY AND YOU WILL BE UNPREDICTABLE AND A VERY GOOD PLAYER. I cannot stress this enough. With ZSS you have to consciously think about mixing up your moves or the opponent (If they are any good) WILL shut your game down. Mix up your moves successfully and you will be incredibly hard to beat =) And now onto a very important aspect of the down smash:

The Down Smash Chain

What you basically do for this is you down smash, then when the opponent is just getting out of the stun and hits the floor you down smash again. Repeat. Pretty simple right? You can do this on many characters some you can't though so watch out. If the player is somewhat intelligent they will very easily jump or DI out of this. There are only 3 characters that are guaranteed to be caught and this and is IMPOSSIBLE for them to escape. That would be fox, falco, and wolf. Poor fox can't do a thing about it until 58% damage then he can DI out of it but will still have a hard time of escaping. Falco and wolf aren't so far off (I believe wolf is 16% and falco is 28% or something?) but it is still hard for them to escape it.
Here is a video of a guy named ikki. Watch at the end is when he does the down smash chain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdaTZBr7zGg
For more details:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166406


8. --------~Taunt input~--------

So Samus can change into zero suit samus through her final smash. Everyone knows that. You probably already know about the taunt input as well. But do you know the details? Sakurai says on the website the taunt input is ^\/^\/ and you assume you just have to do this really quickly. Actually it is much more complicated than that. You have to do 4 sets of up and downs (that's 8 button presses!) in 0.54 seconds (I believe). Also you can do side to side if you want. Any button press in between them does not affect as long as you do 4 pairs of them in .54 seconds. They say the easiest controller to do this on is the wiimote and nunchuck or classic controller. I use the gamecube controller and I probably can't push buttons quickly and consecutively to save my life XD So there's little hope for me to master this technique not that I play as samus much anyway. The potential of learning this technique would be able to switch from samus to zss anytime you want to (and they both have completely different syles) but remember you can't turn back into regular samus so once you change you'll be stuck as zss.

For more details go to:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155697




9. --------~MIND GAMES AND STRATEGIES~--------

This is where ZSS excels a lot in and why I told you that an intelligent zss is a good zss. Here are the following:

Approaching:
Approaching your opponent offensively plays a pretty big role in zss's game. There are many ways of charging in. You can go in for a dash attack and then maybe a down smash. Down B kick usually catches the opponent off guard if you do it all of a sudden. You can dash in for a grab. Or you can do a short hop and use your aerials (I'd recommend the back aerial for this). For my approaching game I have several ways. Dash attack into a double down smash is my favorite, but if they know you're doing it it's disastrous. Dash into a grab is another. Dash into an up smash is good. After using a spacing side B (explained later) I will do a short hop looking like I'm going to do another side B but then going in for an aerial. Down B kick is a real good one and works most of the time. Stun shot and then one of the charges I just mention is great. Stun shots make a good opening and I recommend using them. Remember to always mix these up and never use the same one too many times in a row. Try and the make the opponent afraid because they don't know what you're going to do next. Approaching should be used only when there is an opening when the opponent has used a slow attack and missed (like a smash attack), there's a good chance the opponent does not suspect you charging and they do not have fast enough reaction time, or when the opponent thinks you are going to use a spacing side B (again explained later). There's another condition and thats if your opponent is stupid and will get hit when you charge even if you are predictable XD but remember don't rely on this at all.

Approaching with Aerials:

Now approaching with aerials can go hand in hand with spacing using side B because the both look extremely similar at the start of each. To approach with aerials its very helpful if you master the shorthop. I reccomend approching with a back aerial, forward aerial, neutral aerial. Up aerial is pretty good too. Other than that this really just depends how much you've practiced it. Treat this as one of your approaches that isn't as predictable and punishible. Approaching with aerials is a very good thing to have.

Spacing Using Side B:

Side B is very very important to your spacing techniques. What is spacing? Spacing is keeping a certain amount of distance between you and your opponent (So if a meta knight attack are very quick and you can't seem to get out of them if you keep your distance you won't get hit right?). Learn to know and I mean KNOW when you are at the right distance to sweet spot with your whip. Sort of jump backwards a tiny bit and then use it on them if you know what I mean. If they are charging at you then you can use your whip as well. Now there are couple things about this spacing technique. Some characters may be a little too aggressive and quick and can be hard to use this on. It can get to be VERY predictable which is a real bad quality to have. Also theres the issue of stale moves. This move does 16% damage right when you're "fresh" right? The knock back is very good at for this. If you keep on spacing for too long not only will the opponent start predicting it and making it harder on you, but also the move can do less damage and far less knockback. Sometimes after using this for WAY too long on my part the move was doing 10% damage and couldn't kill even at 158%. So this comes to the point of the MOST IMPORTANT strategy by far. And that is:

Keeping Your Game Unpredictable to the Opponent:
All you're strategies, all your mind games, all you grabs, techniques, combos you've developed, recovery you've mastered, absolutely EVERYTHING revolves around this and ultimately it all comes down to this. Take everything you've learned about ZSS and mix it all up together. That means don't do the spacing game the entire game. No down smashing the entire game. No aerial approaches the entire game. You have to use these all evenly to keep your game unpredictable. Just used an attempt at side B twice in a row? Instead of jumping backward to use it do a short hop and into an aerial. Or do a down B kick. Charge at them if you think they don't have quick enough reaction time. Going in for a charge? Just charged with a dash attack twice and it was successful both times? Thinking about doing it again? Don't. Charge and do a dash grab instead. Maybe one of your strategies may work for a couple lives or maybe even the game. But what happens the next game? A HUGE mistake many zss users make is always charging. As I explained in the aproaching section there are three conditions to charging and only charge of one of these conditions is met. If you keep on using only one or two strategies the person WILL start predicting your one or two strategies and he will get progressively harder to beat each time. I often play with my good ol' friend Bluebirde. We play many matches. Make my game unpredictable and I'll usually win by a small margin, sometimes even a big margin. Anything less and I usually lose. You can be unpredictable with anyone no matter how many times you've played them so don't think it's impossible to be unpredictable with this one person because it's not. Learn to not rely on any of your strategies and always have a back up. Learn to predict your opponents and be unpredictable and you will truly be a good ZSS user.

10. --------~VIDEOS~--------
Right now I can't really post any videos of my own cause my camera sucks big monkey balls. So I'll give you a link to a thread of many many zss videos:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=146160

11. --------~The Future of Zero Suit Samus~--------
Right now zero suit is very overlooked as you might have noticed. I am a person that is giving my best efforts to discover the potential of this character. She may be harder to use in some respects, and arguably so, she may also not have any "easy" ways to win a match, and requires a lot of intelligence to use. But I, as well as any zss mainer, am attempting to overcome these obstacles and will keep on maining her. I believe because of the intense learning curve of zss after a while people will start catching on to ZSS and she will stop being overlooked as much as she is now. So let's try to give to the community a little bit and show it that Zero Suit Samus is not to be overlooked and has huge potential! =)

--------~ABOUT ME~--------

I'd post videos of myself playing but again my camera's quality is just too bad. But why would you want to watch a video of me play when you could just fight me yourself? I love to play people so its not like I'm going to reject you and say no lol. Any tips, strategies, or questions that you have feel free to message me at allisbrawl pr smashboards and I'll happily get back to you. And if I don't respond to you it's not cause I don't care I might just be having a busy day or caught up and something (I have life!). Anyways Hope you enjoyed the guide. Any comments? Suggestions? Questions? Post 'em I wanna hear from you about this!
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
I'm going to go ahead and let the other folks on the boards take care of this one.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
"I don't have any time to really go over this because I'm about to go out and thus don't feel I could give adequate criticism and help at this time."
 

Bouse

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
720
Location
MD
Okay I'll do this without being mean....

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175185
This is a link to the Zero Suit Samus Resource Center... it is the TOP link that is stickied. You should have read that first.
It contains a link to a guide which already exists, as well as numerous topics and videos.

Also...

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175810

Is our posting guidelines which has "ATTENTION" in the title. Meaning you should have read it before posting. While reading this you should have seen that the Zero Suit Samus Resource Center is actually mentioned.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
I know a guide already exists but I see no reason why there shouldn't be two guides on here. It offers two perspectives. I noticed in those threads it says no spam threads but I do not believe this is a spam thread. It offers two perspectives on something. If there was a thread on her down B move and then another one named "my perspective on ZSS's down B" would you consider that spam? If you would then we obviously have different opinions on the matter.
 

Bouse

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
720
Location
MD
The real problem is I browsed your "guide" and saw no new information that isn't already posted and listed in that Resource Center. We're not an angry bunch of people, we just are ordered. If there were 2, 3, or 4, or 5 guides that's fine. But to be honest if you expect interest from the Zero Suit community for reposting what most of us...

Already know.
Have chronicled.
Have stickied, and referenced.

... you are most likely mistaken.

I also see no "different perspective." Odds are you spent 5 seconds on our boards and didn't see a guide stickied. You gave us no new information and no clairvoyant insight. The most you've added is a "don't be predictable" section which could have been easily more in depth.

If you look through that link and find information that isn't covered, by all means, post about it. We have stickied posts because you should read them, not ignore them.

ph00tbag is telling me to be nice to you because this was posted on AIB and IIRC, to be honest I trust him on that. The fact that you might pay attention and update this thread might also be useful. So though my tone is harsh, understand that I'm just not a cuddly kitten of a person.

Also, on the "My perspective on Down+B" would be a different matter. Placing up opinions for discussion is what a forum is for. But if someone made a "What I think about Down+B" thread before that person then yes, it is spam. There was a place to discuss that information already and the poster is just creating a thread that others will look at and ponder it's existence.

Edit: Also, don't double post without at least apologizing for it. This isn't AIM, some of us might do things after posting.
 

Adapt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,489
Location
NS, Canada
Don't beat up on him, guides are ok for posting. I know there isn't much new info here, but someone might find it useful. There is a bit of info that is not in the other guide. If you add the stages info it will be worth referencing. Snakeee doesn't cover all of the stages in his topic
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Premium
Joined
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Messages
7,245
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NC
I'm going to say that I don't mind this guide, as long as you make sure to come back every so often to update it when new info comes to light. You've got a lot of good info here.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
The real problem is I browsed your "guide" and saw no new information that isn't already posted and listed in that Resource Center. We're not an angry bunch of people, we just are ordered. If there were 2, 3, or 4, or 5 guides that's fine. But to be honest if you expect interest from the Zero Suit community for reposting what most of us...

Already know.
Have chronicled.
Have stickied, and referenced.

... you are most likely mistaken.

I also see no "different perspective." Odds are you spent 5 seconds on our boards and didn't see a guide stickied. You gave us no new information and no clairvoyant insight. The most you've added is a "don't be predictable" section which could have been easily more in depth.

If you look through that link and find information that isn't covered, by all means, post about it. We have stickied posts because you should read them, not ignore them.

ph00tbag is telling me to be nice to you because this was posted on AIB and IIRC, to be honest I trust him on that. The fact that you might pay attention and update this thread might also be useful. So though my tone is harsh, understand that I'm just not a cuddly kitten of a person.

Also, on the "My perspective on Down+B" would be a different matter. Placing up opinions for discussion is what a forum is for. But if someone made a "What I think about Down+B" thread before that person then yes, it is spam. There was a place to discuss that information already and the poster is just creating a thread that others will look at and ponder it's existence.

Edit: Also, don't double post without at least apologizing for it. This isn't AIM, some of us might do things after posting.
Hmm I still don't see much reason why I'm being reprimanded for this I suppose it's just cause people look at my title smash n00b and automatically assume that I'm going to do stupid stuff and judge me accordingly. This was on AiB. The link to it is right here: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=10545
Now about my guide not having any new information. There is my perspective on moves, not be predictable as I said, my take on what to do with the armor pieces, my opinions on pretty much everything in my guide. And unless I've had memory loss i've never posted my opinions on here so a lot of this is new you could say. Now about what you say on spam with the down B. Yes that would be very true but because guides are so massive its not practical to post it in a reply to a guide. This is my guide my opinion i'm not going to post something as big as this as a reply to snake's topic now am I?

Actually there are two guides on AiB. The people over there don't seem to have a problem with it, why do you? Also your sentence in your edit doesn't really have any meaning to it as editing it takes just as much time as posting another post other than just trying to make me feel bad.

Thank you ph00tbag and (sorry I can't remember you name lol but thanks for you input anyway) for complimenting me. I appreciate it.

Now about you assuming I spent 5 seconds on these boards and posted a guide without looking at the rules and such: You are DEAD wrong. I'm mostly a member of All is Brawl but there are not very many people who post on their boards. I come here very often to check out what everyone's saying over here when the boards over there are slow. I was and am very much aware there is another guide on here. I've kind of assumed that this place wasn't so friendly as AiB by reading responses and such. Thought it would be a good idea to get in touch with some people around here post my guide and see if I can meet some friendly people around here. Well I suppose I was right. This place isn't so friendly after all.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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Even I wouldn't have taken this as far as complete flaming. Looks like you spent a while on this, and it's not one of those "personal opinion guides" that I despise so much. Looks like I'm teaching Bouse well though... o.O

EDIT: And now that I skimmed through it I wouldn't even consider flaming this at all as it's pretty informative and much more up-to-date than highandmightyjoe's guide.

Also one thing I've noticed, is that Wolf tends to pop up much higher from a D-smash chain after a shorter period of time.
 

Bouse

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
720
Location
MD
Hmm I still don't see much reason why I'm being reprimanded for this I suppose it's just cause people look at my title smash n00b and automatically assume that I'm going to do stupid stuff and judge me accordingly.
I frequent AIB, I don't post and I've seen your guide there.

Actually there are two guides on AiB. The people over there don't seem to have a problem with it, why do you?
Brawl guides drive me to drink.

Also your sentence in your edit doesn't really have any meaning to it as editing it takes just as much time as posting another post other than just trying to make me feel bad.
Did it work? Please tell me it worked!

Thank you ph00tbag and (sorry I can't remember you name lol but thanks for you input anyway) for complimenting me. I appreciate it.
Sure don't give me any credit for talking to the guy...

Now about you assuming I spent 5 seconds on these boards and posted a guide without looking at the rules and such: You are DEAD wrong.
Well technically it could take longer than 5 seconds to copy and paste.

Thought it would be a good idea to get in touch with some people around here post my guide and see if I can meet some friendly people around here. Well I suppose I was right. This place isn't so friendly after all.
I'm a friendly guy, just gotta get to know me.

Looks like I'm teaching Bouse well though... o.O
I like to scare the new people.
.
.
.
Boo.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
Kk it's all cool. If I had been in the same situation I could've easily mistaken myself for a noob wasting space lol. But yeah it's all good and I'll be sure to update my guide frequently and keep up to date with everything. Anyways people keep on giving me your feedback I wanna know what everyone thinks about it :)
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
This is a nice guide, good job. I have to be honest though, some of it I either disagree with or it's just that it's a bit outdated. The main things are that it's in fact very difficult in most cases to edgehog a good ZSS player (like I explained in a topic of mine). Also, she doesn't fair too well on flat stages unless it's against a character that doesn't have a projectile and Smashville is probably the worst neutral for her.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
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3DS FC
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I disagree, I think Lylat Cruise is her worst neutral. Smashville you get the opportunity to combo on and off a platform.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
I disagree, I think Lylat Cruise is her worst neutral. Smashville you get the opportunity to combo on and off a platform.
Eh the platform is really random though and there's not too many opportunities with it, but I agree that Lylat generally isn't too good. Though you can d smash through the low platforms on the side.

Btw, sorry for getting a bit harsh with you in the other thread. You're just very critical, and it annoys me when I'm so sure of something and someone always believes the opposite...you've done this a few times. I mean you're free to think whatever you want though.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
On Lylat your moves have landing lag any time the stage isn't perfectly level.

ETA: Final Destination also sucks. Any character that counters you in any way generally gains a HUGE advantage here, especially Lucario and Falco, as there are no platforms on which you can avoid the projectile spam or platforms to force them onto.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
3,904
Location
Staten Island, NY
On Lylat your moves have landing lag any time the stage isn't perfectly level.

ETA: Final Destination also sucks. Any character that counters you in any way generally gains a HUGE advantage here, especially Lucario and Falco, as there are no platforms on which you can avoid the projectile spam or platforms to force them onto.
The stage goes from terrible to amazing actually depending on who you're fighting. I love fighting Marth there...like i said characters without projectiles. This promotes camping big time though.
 

ashes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 1, 2008
Messages
85
Location
lake worth, FL
Ultimately I like this guide better than others because it has everything in one place in an organized fashion. Ya some of the info is stuff we knew but what i like about it is that you have basically compiled other threads into one. Now i don't have to look all over, or click on a bunch of links to find what i need(don't ask why but it bothers me when i have to). Plus it resufaces ideas and facts and by rereading them many people pick up on or learn extra things they know but don't use (especially since this is written by someone new). so i give two thumbs up.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
I'll have to disagree with you on that snakeee. I believe flat stages work to your advantage in a lot of cases. But yes it really does depend on your situation. I mostly pick BF but on some characters I pick FD. And what?? The fthrow is better than dthrow? I don't think so. In my game that definitely isn't the case.
Edit: I'll explain more of why I think so later. Right now I have to go to tennis.
 

Bouse

Smash Ace
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
720
Location
MD
1. Fthrow and Dthrow are equally good for their own reasons.
2. I've seen more color at the Republican National Convention, PRETTY IT UP.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Premium
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Messages
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I'm going to have to go with Bouse on the throws, dthrow and fthrow are tied for best throws, then bthrow, and finally uthrow.
 

Snakeee

Smash Master
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Staten Island, NY
I'm going to have to go with Bouse on the throws, dthrow and fthrow are tied for best throws, then bthrow, and finally uthrow.
You're the one that said you hate d-throw lol. Well I've finally seen the light myself, and d-throw I only use randomly at higher percentages. The f throw can link to a dash attack for a while, they can shield it some of the time but ZSS is pretty safe hitting a shield with a dash attack against most characters.
 

ph00tbag

C(ϾᶘϿ)Ͻ
Premium
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You're the one that said you hate d-throw lol.
If I said I hated it, which I doubt, then I've since changed my mind on that front. Other than that, I've always held the opinion that it's a useful throw. It's not good for comboing, but it puts you in an advantageous position, so if you want to stress your opponent out by being below them, then use it by all means.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
You're the one that said you hate d-throw lol. Well I've finally seen the light myself, and d-throw I only use randomly at higher percentages. The f throw can link to a dash attack for a while, they can shield it some of the time but ZSS is pretty safe hitting a shield with a dash attack against most characters.
Yeah anyways the reason why I nearly do the down throw every time is I use the throws to rack up damage. Usually the fthrow throws them to far forward and they can easily shield and avoid the attack. With the down throw I do one of two things. One is I grab and throw down as quickly as I can then follow up with an uair as quickly as I can. Even if they have good air-dodges they must also possess fast reflexes because I use this string of attacks very quickly. Now theres another thing I do which is I wait/predict when they're going to air-dodge and go into an upsmash or up B (Almost always upsmash). If I get someone into a grab they can't really do much with the meta-game I have here, and once I get them up in the air with uair or upsmash I have them right where I want them. The forward throw can follow up with some maybe a dash attack or two but that's it. Maybe in your game snake it may work worlds better but in my metagame dthrow is definitely the way to go.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
Ok now on the subject of stages. I agree 100% with you on that snakeee. Picking between BF and FD completely rides on the persons character and their style. I mentioned spamming projectiles as a con but maybe I didn't emphasize it as much as I meant it. One big thing thats good about FD is the armor piece game there is at its very best. The times I played you snakeee was it you didn't really like the pieces? Or was it you didn't want to play with six pieces on the field? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. Regardless, though, I never really got to see your pieces game so I don't know how much of an effect that would have on you. For me though, FD's armor piece game is one of the main reasons I pick FD over BF sometimes. I pick BF 75% of the time though as it is overall better for ZSS. Maybe the way I wrote it in the guide emphasized on FD more than I wanted it to.

EDIT: Oh yeah and Bouse....Yeah I have enough motivation to type 600 words on stages in over an hour and yet I'm too lazy to find time to add color

EDIT AGAIN: Just read your tidbit about how you said good zss players shouldn't have a problem with edgehogging. And yes that is completely true I wrote this back on May 9th so I'm gonna have to go back redo some things that are outdated.
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
How nice I've always wondered how venom would feel if it were spit into my eyes XD! So yeah that would pwn (EDIT: you doing the colors that is) but how do I give you permission to do that?
 

doctorjuice

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
41
Location
Huntington, West Virginia
Wow my writing is just horrid now that I look back at it and read it. I'm redoing quite a few sections, expect them to be worlds better.
Edit: Just redid the Recovery section. It's much better now.
 

DeliciousCake

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Fairfax, VA
3DS FC
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How nice I've always wondered how venom would feel if it were spit into my eyes XD! So yeah that would pwn (EDIT: you doing the colors that is) but how do I give you permission to do that?
Easiest thing would be for you to copy all of the text (with formatting tags) and send it to me. That way I can paste it into the editor and add all the color, then send you the text back with the added color and formatting tags.
 

Adapt

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,489
Location
NS, Canada
I like to keep a current version of any guide I make in notepad for making changes
Any edits I can just paste into the forum editor like cake said for formatting tags etc.
 
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