gawd i ****in love you schmoo
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Dash grab isn't a bad option for some chaingrab. I only do by accident or boostgrab sfx shenanigans.Does anyone use dash grab instead of JC grab in general? Also how does boost grab compare?
Haha, well its not so much advice as it is me seeking an opinion from an analytical perspective. I asked a smiliar question to Kadano about a Marth roughly a year ago and got a very interesting response so I am curious to see what schmooblidon has to say in regards to Doc.
I honestly don't think my opinion differs from the norm. I think doc is a solid semi-viable along with ICs, Falcon, Pikachu, Samus and maybe Luigi. A lot of people, mostly reddit, have started a "doc is overrated", "doc is way too high on the tier list" trend since Shroomed dropped him and Hax's tier list, but 99% of the time someone says this, they are just parroting and don't have a good reason. He is clearly below ICs and falcon, above Luigi, ganon, mario it is hard to say where he is from there. I know very little about Pika, and Samus is too different to make that judgement. Shroomed has already proved that he can go places, and he didn't exhaust doc's meta by any means.@schmooblidon
Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Doc's viability, his MUs vs. important characters (namely spacies, Marth, and Sheik) and what Doc players need to do to push the char?
i definitely lost to 4 foxes in tournament yesterdayInteresting analysis. Funny that I think Fox is Doc's worst matchup of the 4.
really perfecting and maximizing your punishes is really really important.. 2 of the sets i lost yesterday were due to not completing punishes on their last stock (miss timed an easy cape then got hit by the firefox and sakurai combod, another i dropped a 3 to 1 lead because despite getting at least 3 grabs and missing the uthrow fair or just accidentally doing a different throw)Maximizing CGs
Maximizing throw combos (including knowing throw-> fair perfectly)
Started streaming netplay the other day. http://www.twitch.tv/schmooblidon/b/646106773 (the doc dittos right at the end with rashattack are decent) It's pretty casual, reactions and tech are a lot harder so there are a lot of moments when you are both whiffing repeatedly, and I'm pretty stoned most of the time. But it is great for experimenting. Dude ledgedash dtilt at mid+% is amazing, they can shield/cc it but it's instant win if u land it.@schmooblidon do you have any vids online?
Is that possible with Luigi? It seems really really good : quicker than a waveland, attack and safer if missed!Dear god this game is too damn deep! I have made another discovery that has blown my mind once again.
So yeah remember this,
It's not an Aerial Interrupt Attack..... it's anAerial Interrupt Attack Platform Warp!Platform Warp Aerial! Allow me to explain.
Doc uses the special property of his double jump where on frame 10 of double jump his ECB moves downward which allows him to do the quick No-Impact Land named a Platform Warp. The yoshis gif actually uses that ECB movement on frame 10 of double jump to connect the ECB to the ground, which happens on the 3rd hitbox frame. The ECB movement of the first 2 hitbox frames gets it close to the ground, then the platform warp tech kicks in the next frame and the ECB connects.
Luigi can do it, but it's really difficult. Like double frame perfect and you need to hit someone, this is because of his terrible horizontal mobility.Is that possible with Luigi? It seems really really good : quicker than a waveland, attack and safer if missed!
And about the plateform warp, is there any ways to do it without dropping a plateform? It could be really effective for tech-chasing...
You can always cape them as cape is more disjointed then up-b, the hard part is knowing what timing they choose. If they do it early, you must either have perfect timing to trade or space it from further back. If they sweetspot against the wall, it's super easy, if they do a horizontal sweetspot you must space it from much closer to the edge.@schmooblidon !
i've been failing at caping marths upb on yoshis story for the longest. I assume it's because of the lip. My question to you is if it's _always_ possible to cape marth even if he sweetspots the ledge (on that stage and others).
and is there a specific distance I want to be to make the cape easier? Would somehow help if i short hop caped?
Doc's upsmash has 2 sets of hitboxes which are identical in positioning, knockback and damage, but have different angles. Both set's have a stronger hit at the beginning and weaker at the end. Set A only hits airborne opponents, and early has an angle of 83, and late has an angle of 76. Set B only hits grounded opponents, and both early and late have an angle of 259.
Angles are from -> and go counterclockwise, so an angle of 259, angles down and back, which makes it a spike. But because it only hits grounded opponents, when hit they instantly bounce off the ground. I'm not 100% on knockback after bouncing, but I did some low and high percent tests and found that airborne always has more knockback and is at a more vertical angle.
Each angle of fsmash does a different amount of damage, which in turn does different amounts of knockback.
Here a comparison, on a fox at 85% (no DI)
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Angle down does 18%, angle middle does 19%, angle up does 20%
Those commentators are wrong I believe.... upsmash on grounded opponents has less knock back but more hit stun where as hitting in opponents in the air has more knockback and less hitstun... basically it's a meteor smash vs a normal hitAlright cool. Thanks for the response! The reason I ask is because I was watching a match with doc (can't remember which one) and the commentators mentioned that docs upsmash does more knockback on grounded opponents, and that the optimal punish for a missed rest was cape to usmash, to fair. And that because of the increased knockback, fair was guaranteed.
Either way, this was all really interesting. Definitely gotta lab more with doc!
Alright cool. Thanks for the response! The reason I ask is because I was watching a match with doc (can't remember which one) and the commentators mentioned that docs upsmash does more knockback on grounded opponents, and that the optimal punish for a missed rest was cape to usmash, to fair. And that because of the increased knockback, fair was guaranteed.
Either way, this was all really interesting. Definitely gotta lab more with doc!
Sort of, meteoring or spiking a grounded opponent will have a 20% knockback reduction, but doesn't affect hitstun. This is better for combos because you don't knock them as far away but have the same amount of hitstun, making a followup easier and more likely. Perhaps that is what you meant, but I was unsure.Those commentators are wrong I believe.... upsmash on grounded opponents has less knock back but more hit stun where as hitting in opponents in the air has more knockback and less hitstun... basically it's a meteor smash vs a normal hit
Wow this is a surprisingly complicated mechanic.schmooblidon , have you done any more research into the mechanics governing dash attack ledge grabs? How many other characters can do the same thing? If only Mario and Doc can do it, what's so special about their dash attacks that allows it to happen?