Doc Advanced Tech Frame Data Megathread

[#HBC | Mac]

gawd i ****in love you schmoo

 

[schmooblidon]

Does anyone use dash grab instead of JC grab in general? Also how does boost grab compare?

Dash grab isn't a bad option for some chaingrab. I only do by accident or boostgrab sfx shenanigans.

Boost grab range will look the same, it only changes the position it would start, and doc's sucks so it's worse then doing it straight from dash.

 

[1MachGO]

@ schmooblidon

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Doc's viability, his MUs vs. important characters (namely spacies, Marth, and Sheik) and what Doc players need to do to push the char?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

@ schmooblidon

oh damn @ 1 1MachGO the rest of us aren't good enough to give you advice huh?

I C HOW IT IS

 

[1MachGO]

oh damn @ 1 1MachGO the rest of us aren't good enough to give you advice huh?

I C HOW IT IS

Haha, well its not so much advice as it is me seeking an opinion from an analytical perspective. I asked a smiliar question to Kadano about a Marth roughly a year ago and got a very interesting response so I am curious to see what schmooblidon has to say in regards to Doc.

With that said, if you think this would be a good discussion, I'd still be very interested in your viewpoint.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

nah im trollin, im actually pretty interested in what schmoo has to say too

 

[schmooblidon]

@ schmooblidon

Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on Doc's viability, his MUs vs. important characters (namely spacies, Marth, and Sheik) and what Doc players need to do to push the char?

I honestly don't think my opinion differs from the norm. I think doc is a solid semi-viable along with ICs, Falcon, Pikachu, Samus and maybe Luigi. A lot of people, mostly reddit, have started a "doc is overrated", "doc is way too high on the tier list" trend since Shroomed dropped him and Hax's tier list, but 99% of the time someone says this, they are just parroting and don't have a good reason. He is clearly below ICs and falcon, above Luigi, ganon, mario it is hard to say where he is from there. I know very little about Pika, and Samus is too different to make that judgement. Shroomed has already proved that he can go places, and he didn't exhaust doc's meta by any means.

Doc's obvious flaw is his range, while it is bad, it's not terrible and he thankfully has a really good wavedash/land. This is his only glaring weakness honestly, besides that there is his sub-par combo game on floaties, bad recovery, combo weight, which I would argue are not that important. Bottom line is doc can kill, and he has options.

Fox lives up to his "glass-cannon" name against doc. I think it's his easiest of those 4 by a long shot, sure fox outclasses doc by quite a lot, but doc is fast on the ground, has great close quarter and an amazing punish game on him. Fox will get a bunch of hits, but can't combo well at all. Doc has to work a little harder, but he can keep up and when the opportunity arises, can grab to win.

Falco is a *****. You both have amazing punishes on each other, but all his moves are a little better. Tough to play, but totally do-able. You are basically trying to jab/grab and he is trying to shine, his is better but yours is still good.

Marth is a mega-*****. Personally, this is one of my favourite matchups, but I completely understand why it is hated. He is the perfect character to abuse doc's range, he is doc's anti. Thankfully, we are not robots. Doc can shrek Marth pretty hard if he can get close. Plenty of dsmash/fsmash opportunities to create, easy juggles and easy gimping/edgeguarding. Of course Marth can shrek the third doc, juggle for days, camp you out, do whatever the **** he pleases. He is doc's counterpick, but if you can understand their playstyle, you can win no problem. Once everyone gets amazing though, he will become a real problem.

Sheik is ight. CC, ftilt and chaingrabs make it do-able. Honestly, this should be near even but we aren't at 20XX yet. The problem with this matchup is neither of you want to approach, so having the lead is super important. If you aren't in the lead and they are staying where they are then getting in sucks, but not impossible. If you have the lead, you can just outrange her with ftilt and look out for grab opportunities.

Doc's need to keep experimenting. That's a bit of a cop out answer lol, but I do not lab application as much are you might think, I mostly lab mechanics as to get a greater understanding of the core physics of the game. I do think that movement can be optimized and spiced up a lot (although I think that about every character lol), with perfect wavelands, upair AI, NIL, pivots, pivot edgehogs. Bair waveland (OoS as well) is ****ing amazing dude, it's THE custom combo starter and sets up edgeguards amazingly. Fullhop bair waveland on platform is good too. Up-bcancel when they are CCing (maybe expecting a jab) sets up a techchase that they won't expect. Techchases in general are not optimized. Late upair combos into like anything, but you need the time to get there while in the air. Empty hop wavelands (backwards shorthop to perfect waveland for bonus points), is a good no attack type pressure and mindgame tool. Upsmash to Fair is well known but never actively sort after. (ill edit if more comes to mind)

I'm going to work on a completely new thread all about application. I have a lot of stuff planned, and will be labbing pretty hard for new stuff. Perhaps when I'm done I can answer these questions a little better.

 

[Max?]

Interesting analysis. Funny that I think Fox is Doc's worst matchup of the 4. I don't mind marth, sheik or falco (unless it's Zang). Agreed that people sleep on Doc since Shroomed quit him. Imo the most important things to learn with Doc are:

Maximizing CGs
Movement
Movement out of/Control of pills
Jab mixups
Uair juggles
Oos mixups
Maximizing throw combos (including knowing throw-> fair perfectly)

I'll learn all this fancy stuff eventually LOL

 

[schmooblidon]

More frame stuff

 

[#HBC | Mac]

agreed with schmoo that ppl are jumping the gun with saying doc is overrated and there is still a lot of potential in doc's meta. Docs amazing movement is def under used i think. he has one of the best wavedashes/lands in the game (i know this thanks to schmoo speed data) combined with a pretty decent dash means he can mix up his dash dances with wavedashes that move him faster than his dashes do. sometimes this can make doc seem super fast at times and catch an opponent unawares. e.g. shooting into your opponents dd spacing with a wd forward dsmash can often catch them dashing away or doing a wd out of a dashdance to approach someone with an overshot nair, etc)

@ schmooblidon do you have any vids online?

Interesting analysis. Funny that I think Fox is Doc's worst matchup of the 4.

i definitely lost to 4 foxes in tournament yesterday

Maximizing CGs
Maximizing throw combos (including knowing throw-> fair perfectly)

really perfecting and maximizing your punishes is really really important.. 2 of the sets i lost yesterday were due to not completing punishes on their last stock (miss timed an easy cape then got hit by the firefox and sakurai combod, another i dropped a 3 to 1 lead because despite getting at least 3 grabs and missing the uthrow fair or just accidentally doing a different throw)

its one of those things i think i can do well enough but then crumble at during tournament with the additional pressure. gotta start making this stuff feel like second nature.

 

[schmooblidon]

@ schmooblidon do you have any vids online?

Started streaming netplay the other day. http://www.twitch.tv/schmooblidon/b/646106773 (the doc dittos right at the end with rashattack are decent) It's pretty casual, reactions and tech are a lot harder so there are a lot of moments when you are both whiffing repeatedly, and I'm pretty stoned most of the time. But it is great for experimenting. Dude ledgedash dtilt at mid+% is amazing, they can shield/cc it but it's instant win if u land it.

 

[Max?]

Dtilt by the ledge is god like, I mix it in here and there, and man it can lead to some crazy stuff (Ledgedash -> dtilt -> Wd offstage bair OMFG).

Schmoo, in regards to that uair gif, the hitbox is active frames 5 - 9, does each individual frame have a set or different knockback, similar to pika uair? Also, you listed your thoughts on Doc's current viability, what are some things you would like to see Doc's doing differently that we aren't now? Atm, I'm currently the strongest Doc main playing, but I feel there are things I could be doing better/differently. I'm open to any/all feedback, and definitely am curious about your thoughts.

Also, my justification for Doc's matchups are as follows:

Fox - Super fast, shine leads to fat combos, almost all fox's are proficient at Shine -> usmash now (wasn't the case 3 years ago ), hard to catch him, can circle camp you, cheese factor in easy gimps. Just very tough all around. Fox's who are way worse than me can keep up with me, and that's frustrating.

Sheik - This matchup feels way closer to even the better I get. Avoid BF. The top platform is tallest there and most Sheiks LOVE it. You would think Dreamland is bad, but the top platform is lower to the ground than BF, it's harder for her to corner you there,and the space in the middle gives you a LOT of room to CG/combo/run the Doc game. Your combo tree/cgs/CC dsmash/ftilt/bair force Sheik to respect you. Definitely not as bad as history has made it out to be.

Marth - Similar story as Sheik. On paper he can wall you out forever, but in practice not so much. Be wary of using your DJ. He can swat away pills, but Doc win's the long distance, and up close fights. Marth wins the mid range game. Do your best to chuck pills from a distance, and punish him super hard when you get in close. Easier said than done I guess, but he can only get fat punishes on you if you let him. Hanging in shield against him isn't that bad, from throw he really only gets Uthrow which gives him positional advantage, but you only get punished hard core if you let him. He doesn't get outright combos or death on you unless you DJ into the ****. Be careful and pick your spots well. Take you time, throw lots of pills, and maximize that combo tree. At 0, a grab can lead to 50% plus. Avoid FD imo, platforms are the key to staying alive.

Falco - Three words: Anti Laser Technology. Cape, pills, platforms, powershields. These are the tools to stop lasers. If Falco is hanging underneath the right platform of battlefield, jump on top of the left one and start raining pills. If he jumps up to shoot lasers, go underneath. Avoid staying on the same plane as him if you can. If you space pills so that they bounce just over his head, it makes SHL a liability as he might eat a pill to the face. You can force him to shield, and take advantage of that downtime by moving in and punishing. We all know how badly Doc can destroy Falco once he gets a hit, so I won't go into that. Getting around lasers is huge. He can't outright combo you to death if you DI the shine properly. Mix up your OOS options against him, and stay unpredictable. Doc has all the tools to deal with Falco, and the fact that he is so much slower than Fox is a big deal. I believe people treat Falco with too much respect and it lets him walk all over you. Now if they decide to play like Zang and run away for 8 minutes.... different story.

I'll write more later, these thoughts are all stream of consciousness, and a little jumbled, but it helps to write them down. When I have more time later I'll talk more about matchups and how I experience them.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

@ Max? i need to ingrain that falco synopsis into my head. Gotta remember that I can jump over lasers and that i don't always gotta shield them. I feel like playing against falco makes one want to get hit by lasers if that makes any sense... as soon as you see a laser coming and you freeze or shield when you could have done a ton of other things like just move to a diff platform


@ schmooblidon http://i.imgur.com/k9AwCJP.jpg

HOW COULD YOU!

 

[schmooblidon]

@ Max? Great summaries, never thought to throw a pill over Falco's head to shut down a short hop laser. Doc and Mario's upair have a consistent knockback angle from all frames and both hitboxes. If ---> is 0°, and moving anti clockwise, upair knocks back at 55°, so its like / . Uptilt has a different angle trajectory when early and late, so I might do a pic for that. I will have to get back to you on what doc's should be doing, I need to analysis your games and get enough data to back it up. I'm planning a doc video series, so you guys can look forward to that. I am curious if you guys think it'd be worth making a basics video to teach newer docs the well established tech and combos. I plan on doing it in parts, like neutral, edgeguarding, combos, chaingrabs+throw followups, movement, matchup specific scenarios, swag, maybe some others.

@ #HBC | Mac Haha, maybe I should make some gifs for the low tiers to even out my blasphemy

 

[1MachGO]

I think a video demonstrating Doc's ideal edge guard flowchart would be really good. I see a lot of Doc's struggle with high Fox recoveries or miss capes on character x.

 

[Max?]

Schmoo, out of curiosity where do you live? Some new Doc content sounds great, if you need a hand in anything let me know.

Prepare yourselves for a rant of sorts. Over the last few months I've improved by going to tournies, but haven't practiced at home on my own, watched any of my footage or really studied the game, and as such I've felt lulls in my performance and growth. With all the work and info Schmoo has been sharing with us, it's helped me focus and flesh out my thoughts on how Doc can keep up in the meta. As per usual a lot of this will be stream of consciousness and I will not be making serious edits here, so forgive me in advance if this is a little jumbled.

The modern meta is all about speed, movement and efficiency. Top/High level players know and utilize all the movement tricks and options, do the fastest and safest moves in neutral, usually pick the best options, and punish ridiculously hard. After observing other Docs and my own play I feel that we're all guilty of doing unsafe things that lead to big rewards such as:

• Throwing out Fair in neutral and ESPECIALLY at KO %'s
• Going for the late nair and approaching with Nair in general
• Going for raw grabs
• Approaching /zoning with Dair
• Dsmashing in neutral too much.

These options aren't bad per say, in fact many of them lead to kills, combos, chaingrabs and edgeguards, but they aren't safe and usually leave Doc vulnerable. IMO in neutral Doc should stick to the following moves as they allow him to be mobile, are fast, can chain into one another and create good situations:

• Bair
  • SHBAWL gives you insane movement options, approaching with bair is very good when spaced right.
  • You can fake coming in with a SHBAWL with a empty SH to see how they react and retreat if needed.
  • Bair sets up knockdowns for tech chases, edgeguards, can be chained together, can cross people up.
  • At low % bair -> pivot dsmash is a true combo.
  • Bair -> grab, Bair -> jab (or pivot jab if you cross them up) sets up the 50/50
  • It's super fast, etc
• Uair
  • Your best juggling tool. Leads into more uairs, grabs, KO moves (fair at higher%, dsmash/fsmash at lower/mid%). It can also cause knockdowns for tech chases, and in one of the Doc threads there is a chart that shows what %'s Uair beats CC and forces knockdowns. Learn it and abuse it!
  • Single hit uair -> smash attack is very good. Doc is all about one-two combos that do a lot of damage and get people off stage.
  • Good for crossing people up, and should be your main approaching move while facing forward. Throw a bunch of pills of varying height, come in behind them with uairs and you got good stuff going on.
  • Super fast and more or less "safe". Uair -> jab is really good. If they shield the hit or CC it you can try and disrupt them with jabs and set up the 50/50 mix up. Or jab will just flat out combo into a grab or dsmash or more uairs even.
  • Can help set up edeguards, a lot of times you can chase people off stage with uair into pivot bair, or grab ledge -> falling/jumping bair.
  • Uair OOS is very good. I think Doc's best OOS option in general is to roll/WD away and reset the situation instead of committing, so this shouldn't be abused (nor should any of his others like Upb, usmash, etc) but when used sparingly it can be destructive (especially vs. tall characters like Marth who can't avoid the hitbox as easily). If you get a hit confirm off of this it can lead to a fat combo or 50/50 mix up out of jab or just a straight up smash attack, so be prepared to punish if you want to use this option.
• Jab
  • We all know how good this is. WD OOS Jab is Doc bnb at this point. Super fast and leads to dsmash, grab, aerials, etc.
  • The almighty 50/50 mix up. Jab them and see how they react. Shield = Grab, Hit = Dsmash. A lot of times in the beginning of a set, I'll just flat jab -> dsmash regardless to gauge and condition them. From that point and time I slowly start to feel what works, but learning how to react properly will open huge doors for you.
  • A good way to chain and link together little strings. You set up an uair juggle, miss the last one but are still close by? WD jab and keep it going. Bair -> jab, uair -> jab, all super good.
  • Be careful about using this too much tho, people will begin to CC you back or smash DI away to make follow ups harder. Used sparingly and in the right spots will create great opportunities, so don't abuse it!
  • If people do smash DI away, try to chase them with uairs or the rare fat nair if you think it can land.
• Pills
  • Not the best projectile, but not the worst. People know how to deal with them nowadays. They can be swatted easily, a lot of moves eat them and continue past to hit you, faster characters can run/walk in between them and underneath you for free punishes.
  • That said, these are your main tool from far away and should be thrown like crazy. They key is knowing your opponents movement options and making sure to only throw them when it is safe. People may be able to swipe through them for free, but they still have to react and respect them. On the off chance one connects, the free % is nice too.
  • Use them to limit and force people INTO spots. Marth can swat them away, but he has to jab to do so which leaves him stationary. It might be for a second, but this is melee and a second is A LONG time.
  • Learn to WL out of FH and DJ pills. WLing behind pills gives you cover and allows you to control space. Whenever you choose to approach with a move (which tbh should be rarely), chucking a ton of pills before you do so will allow you some extra wiggle room. In conjuction with the mobility and flexibility of using Bair (SHBAWL) and uairs, pills are the key to safe approaches.
  • Learn how the pill bounces! A SH pill bounces a little higher than a standing one. A pill thrown from a platform that lands on the ground will bounce extra high. The higher you are the more of a bounce a pill will have. Use stage to your advantage! The slant on Yoshi's and some of the jank transformations on Stadium can allow you to have some very interesting pill options. Learn them and abuse them.

TLDR;

These in my mind are the few moves Doc should use in neutral. They give him lots of opportunities for combos, knockdowns and edgeguards, and allow him to chain them together smoothly. Being patient, using pills, DDing and focusing on movement in conjunction with these moves are the keys to keeping up in the meta. It may seem boring to have your neutral game consist of only a few moves, but they are his best options. Once you land a hit, go ham, do whatever you want. And once again, feel free to approach with Fair or Nair, or whatever. There are times where it works and is justified. On the whole, to truly maximize this guy, this is the beginning frame work.

I wanted to post some more about matchups, but this took me way too long and I got other stuff to do. Til next time!

 

[#HBC | Mac]

^ such an epic post

doc boards been on fire lately

 

[schmooblidon]

Fantastic post dude, looking forward to what you have to say about the other high tiers.

I am from the UK, near London.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I don't know why I never thought to bounce the pills off of the slants in Yoshi's story.

 

[Kisatamura]

Yoshi's Story in my opinion is small enough to where pills see occasional use. I actually want to know why Dair is a risky option neutral. Startup wise compared to Doc's other aerials besides fair, dair is slower but a full jumped dair on hit is pretty good. If Dair's more of a read option then I can understand.

 

[Max?]

Dair just gets predictable if spammed a lot, and you leave yourself vulnerable if you whiff. It's asking for a nice fat Fox/Falco/Sheik bair. Moves like bair/uair can be done safely, and allow you the most amount of movement opportunity.

 

[shockage]

i dont see it anywhere but you can add in that you can do aerials (bair, uair) off a lemon dash, i'd imagine it has applicable use.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

There are some great posts here.

Also, some random pill knowledge I discovered: If you WL off of a platform and throw a pill Doc will throw the pill in the direction that you came off of the platform. So for example if you're in the middle of the stage on PS facing right and you jump up onto the right platform then WL off back towards the center of the stage and throw a pill, you'll throw a pill towards the center. This can be useful for turning around while putting a pill in front of you AND you'll keep moving at the same time.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Mr.Lemon That's how b-turnarounds work in melee; when you have control stick backwards, it'll cause neutral b to turn you around for some amount of time even if you let go off the stick, provided that you don't hit forward again after. Iirc the 'turnaround input' is active for something like 20 frames.

 

[Jaur]

About the d-throw chaingrab on Fox/Falco: I'm interested in the actual application of this, so instead of finding out the frame-perfect grab (which is beyond human reaction, right?) I was wondering at what %s could you start the d-throw chain grab on Fox/Falco given about 13-16 frames (around the human reaction time) of leeway to react to the DI. I tried to math it based on Magus's chart but failed. If anyone can calculate that, it'd be awesome!

 

[tauKhan]

Pretty sure you have enough time to react to the di when you're still not actionable, so that's not an issue. It's still hard to hit grabs that need frameperfection though.

Edit: After looking at it, the reaction window is considerably shorter than with for example foxes or marth's cg. There's only 16 frames between the launch frame and first actionable frame when dthrowing fox, so it might be an issue. But anyway the best way to figure out the percentages you can be consistent with it is by practicing it .

 

[Yann J.Ridin]

Dear god this game is too damn deep! I have made another discovery that has blown my mind once again.

So yeah remember this,

It's not an Aerial Interrupt Attack..... it's an Aerial Interrupt Attack Platform Warp! Platform Warp Aerial! Allow me to explain.

Doc uses the special property of his double jump where on frame 10 of double jump his ECB moves downward which allows him to do the quick No-Impact Land named a Platform Warp. The yoshis gif actually uses that ECB movement on frame 10 of double jump to connect the ECB to the ground, which happens on the 3rd hitbox frame. The ECB movement of the first 2 hitbox frames gets it close to the ground, then the platform warp tech kicks in the next frame and the ECB connects.

Is that possible with Luigi? It seems really really good : quicker than a waveland, attack and safer if missed!

And about the plateform warp, is there any ways to do it without dropping a plateform? It could be really effective for tech-chasing...

 

[schmooblidon]

Is that possible with Luigi? It seems really really good : quicker than a waveland, attack and safer if missed!

And about the plateform warp, is there any ways to do it without dropping a plateform? It could be really effective for tech-chasing...

Luigi can do it, but it's really difficult. Like double frame perfect and you need to hit someone, this is because of his terrible horizontal mobility.

Luigi has the most godlike upair for platform warps, he is possibly the only character in the game that can do a platform warp aerial
from a regular short hop to a mid platform. I'm gunna make a thread about this, either tonight or tomorrow, with all the windows and gfys and stuff, and I will post in on the luigi boards.

To perform it on battlefield, first make sure you have something to hit. You short hop then doublejump on the 10th - 15th airborne frame, then immediately upair. You wonna make the dj > upair as one quick motion like a jc grab. You can perform the doublejump later but u need to wait till he starts falling again, or the upair will hit too high up. You can also do this on dreamland, just delay the inputs a bit. You cannot do it fast on yoshis and pstadium though, you would have to wait till you start falling on your shorthop before you dj.

You can also do this tech on a top plat from a fullhop, just do the dj>upair when you are close-ish to the plat, the timing isnt hard to find.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

@ schmooblidon !

i've been failing at caping marths upb on yoshis story for the longest. I assume it's because of the lip. My question to you is if it's _always_ possible to cape marth even if he sweetspots the ledge (on that stage and others).

and is there a specific distance I want to be to make the cape easier? Would somehow help if i short hop caped?

 

[schmooblidon]

@ schmooblidon !

i've been failing at caping marths upb on yoshis story for the longest. I assume it's because of the lip. My question to you is if it's _always_ possible to cape marth even if he sweetspots the ledge (on that stage and others).

and is there a specific distance I want to be to make the cape easier? Would somehow help if i short hop caped?

You can always cape them as cape is more disjointed then up-b, the hard part is knowing what timing they choose. If they do it early, you must either have perfect timing to trade or space it from further back. If they sweetspot against the wall, it's super easy, if they do a horizontal sweetspot you must space it from much closer to the edge.

Yoshis makes sweetspotting against the wall a bit harder to counter, like you said because of the lip. But it is still possible, for those you wonna stand near the top of the slope, you still have a pretty big range advantage. Short hopping won't really help unless you have godlike timing.

Also, if they happen to be doing horizontal DI'ed upbs against the wall, that becomes super tough to cape. You would need to stand precisely at the top of the slope.

 

[1MachGO]

@ schmooblidon

Tech chases are all the rage recently. Doc have anything going for him or does he not have the leniency to cover every option on reaction?

 

[DeepDish]

Sorry for not contributing anything constructive with this post, but the name of the Lemon Grab put a big smile on my face when I read it.

 

[Chaos0205]

First off, thanks for this thread. It was super helpful. Second, I've heard that Docs usmash does more knockback if both characters are grounded. I've also heard that fsmash does slightly more damage if angled up. Do you happen to know if that's true?

 

[schmooblidon]

Doc's upsmash has 2 sets of hitboxes which are identical in positioning, knockback and damage, but have different angles. Both set's have a stronger hit at the beginning and weaker at the end. Set A only hits airborne opponents, and early has an angle of 83, and late has an angle of 76. Set B only hits grounded opponents, and both early and late have an angle of 259.

Angles are from -> and go counterclockwise, so an angle of 259, angles down and back, which makes it a spike. But because it only hits grounded opponents, when hit they instantly bounce off the ground. I'm not 100% on knockback after bouncing, but I did some low and high percent tests and found that airborne always has more knockback and is at a more vertical angle.

Each angle of fsmash does a different amount of damage, which in turn does different amounts of knockback.

Here a comparison, on a fox at 85% (no DI)

Angle down does 18%, angle middle does 19%, angle up does 20%

 

[Chaos0205]

Doc's upsmash has 2 sets of hitboxes which are identical in positioning, knockback and damage, but have different angles. Both set's have a stronger hit at the beginning and weaker at the end. Set A only hits airborne opponents, and early has an angle of 83, and late has an angle of 76. Set B only hits grounded opponents, and both early and late have an angle of 259.

Angles are from -> and go counterclockwise, so an angle of 259, angles down and back, which makes it a spike. But because it only hits grounded opponents, when hit they instantly bounce off the ground. I'm not 100% on knockback after bouncing, but I did some low and high percent tests and found that airborne always has more knockback and is at a more vertical angle.

Each angle of fsmash does a different amount of damage, which in turn does different amounts of knockback.

Here a comparison, on a fox at 85% (no DI)

Angle down does 18%, angle middle does 19%, angle up does 20%

Alright cool. Thanks for the response! The reason I ask is because I was watching a match with doc (can't remember which one) and the commentators mentioned that docs upsmash does more knockback on grounded opponents, and that the optimal punish for a missed rest was cape to usmash, to fair. And that because of the increased knockback, fair was guaranteed.

Either way, this was all really interesting. Definitely gotta lab more with doc!

 

[Superw0rri0]

Alright cool. Thanks for the response! The reason I ask is because I was watching a match with doc (can't remember which one) and the commentators mentioned that docs upsmash does more knockback on grounded opponents, and that the optimal punish for a missed rest was cape to usmash, to fair. And that because of the increased knockback, fair was guaranteed.

Either way, this was all really interesting. Definitely gotta lab more with doc!

Those commentators are wrong I believe.... upsmash on grounded opponents has less knock back but more hit stun where as hitting in opponents in the air has more knockback and less hitstun... basically it's a meteor smash vs a normal hit

 

[schmooblidon]

Alright cool. Thanks for the response! The reason I ask is because I was watching a match with doc (can't remember which one) and the commentators mentioned that docs upsmash does more knockback on grounded opponents, and that the optimal punish for a missed rest was cape to usmash, to fair. And that because of the increased knockback, fair was guaranteed.

Either way, this was all really interesting. Definitely gotta lab more with doc!

Those commentators are wrong I believe.... upsmash on grounded opponents has less knock back but more hit stun where as hitting in opponents in the air has more knockback and less hitstun... basically it's a meteor smash vs a normal hit

Sort of, meteoring or spiking a grounded opponent will have a 20% knockback reduction, but doesn't affect hitstun. This is better for combos because you don't knock them as far away but have the same amount of hitstun, making a followup easier and more likely. Perhaps that is what you meant, but I was unsure.

Also if anyone is wondering, I have tried to hit an opponent with the spike hitbox and have them sent downwards. I tried hitting the opponent on the exact frame the windmill platform disappears on PStadium, but it doesn't work. I imagine the order of physics functions prohibits this.

 

[Chaos0205]

Ok. Thanks for the usmash information. Definitely gonna experiment with angled fsmashes too.

 

[CnB | Chandy]

schmooblidon , have you done any more research into the mechanics governing dash attack ledge grabs? How many other characters can do the same thing? If only Mario and Doc can do it, what's so special about their dash attacks that allows it to happen?

 

[schmooblidon]

schmooblidon , have you done any more research into the mechanics governing dash attack ledge grabs? How many other characters can do the same thing? If only Mario and Doc can do it, what's so special about their dash attacks that allows it to happen?

Wow this is a surprisingly complicated mechanic.

All possible DALGs

Doc DA
Total 43, IASA 38
DALG Window 37-38

Mario DA
Total 48, IASA 38
DALG Window 37-39

Luigi DA
Total 62, IASA 59
DALG Window 61

Roy DA
Total 57, IASA 40
DALG Window 39-41

Mewtwo DA
Total 49, IASA 38
Can DALG with lenient dash attack spacing (not very hard)*

C.Falcon DA
Total 39, IASA 38
Can DALG with Very precise dash attack spacing (very hard)*

Ganon DA
Total 39, IASA 38
Can DALG with Very precise dash attack spacing (very hard)*

Yoshi DA
Total 43, IASA 42
Can DALG with Very precise dash attack spacing (very hard)*

Ness DA
Total 41, IASA 40
Can DALG with Very precise dash attack spacing (very hard)*

Mechanics

Simplified

Dash attack cannot be cancelled by a ledge, but tilt turn, smash turn and dash can all be cancelled. An important thing to note about tilt turn is that only when cancelled on frame 6 or above will you turn around, smash turn turns you around if cancelled on frame 2 or above.

A few dash attacks have a small amount of velocity during IASA frames, and if smash turned during these velocities, can be used to ledge cancel. You must have a small enough amount of velocity to be able to remain in Turn for at least 1 frame, before then ledge cancelling. If you have too much, you will cancel the first frame of Turn which will not turn you around.

There are a few quirks that need to be considered to determine exact frame windows, you can read about them in the advanced section.

Advanced

To slide off an edge, you must move 0.1 Mm away from edge. Battlefield's right ledge has an X-coordinate of 68.4. You must reach an X-coordinate of at least 68.5 to slide off. During dash attack it is impossible to slide off an edge. Dash attack has set velocities on each frame, if the velocity on each frame would move your character above 68.5, it will just set it to 68.4. Generally dash attack has very low velocities near the end, and if below 0.1, will actually move your character that tiny distance, as it is below 68.5. If say on frame 39, it has a velocity of 0.08, your X-position will now be 68.48, then if on frame 40, it has a velocity of 0.06, your X-position will now be 68.4 again.

Dash attack cannot be cancelled by a ledge, but tilt turn, smash turn and dash can all be cancelled. An important thing to note about tilt turn is that only when cancelled on frame 6 or above will you turn around, smash turn turns you around if cancelled on frame 2 or above. Another important fact is that frame 1 of Dash will always have the same velocity as the previous frame.

A bunch of DAs have IASA windows whilst they still have a tiny bit of velocity left. Here is an in-depth look at Doc's

=> denotes next frame

Doc DA
Total 43
IASA 38

Uninterrupted Velocity Values
37 - 0.13559
38 - 0.10934
39 - 0.08528
40 - 0.06337
41 - 0.04365
42 - 0.02611
43 - 0.01073

Interrupting with Tilt Turn
tilt turn on 38 - 0.07559 => 0.01559 (still on stage)
tilt turn on 39 - 0.04934 => 0.00000 (still on stage)
tilt turn on 40 - 0.02528 (fall no turn, uses movement on frame 39)

Interrupting with Smash Turn
smash turn 38 - 0.07559 => ( neutral - 0.01559 (still on stage) / dash - 0.07559 (fall turned) )
smash turn 39 - 0.04934 => ( neutral - 0.00000 (still on stage) / dash - 0.04934 (still on stage) )
smash turn 40 - 0.02528 (fall no turn, uses movement on frame 39)

DALG Window 37-38

Green shows the possible DALG setups

As you can see Doc only has 1 setup. This is the only time Doc moves over 0.1 Mm and is in an action state that can be ledge cancelled and will turn him around. His window has 2 frames though, this is because Dash has a 2 frame buffer, and the setup is on the frame IASA frame.

I also highlighted 2 unusual setups with orange. Doc only gains 0.02528 when he tilt/smash turns on frame 40, but because frame 39 has a set velocity of 0.08528, which is below 0.1Mm, Doc uses that set velocity to move forward, and then the velocity of the turn moves him enough to ledge cancel.

Here is an in-depth look at Luigis DA

Luigi DA
Total 62
IASA 59

Uninterrupted Velocity Values
58 - 0.19787
59 - 0.16872
60 - 0.13889
61 - 0.10836
62 - 0.07713
63 - 0.04520

Interrupting with Tilt Turn
Tilt turn on 59 - 0.17287 (fall no turn)
Tilt turn on 60 - 0.14372 (fall no turn)
Tilt turn on 61 - 0.11389 (fall no turn)
Tilt turn on 62 - 0.08336 (stlll on stage) => 0.05836 (fall no turn)
Tilt turn on 63 - 0.05213 (fall no turn, uses movement on 62)

Interrupting with Smash Turn
Smash turn on 59 - 0.17287 (fall no turn)
Smash turn on 60 - 0.14372 (fall no turn)
Smash turn on 61 - 0.11389 (fall no turn)
Smash turn on 62 - 0.08336 (still on stage) => ( neutral 63 - 0.05836 (fall turned) / dash 63 - 0.08336 (fall turned) )
Smash turn on 63 - 0.05213 (fall no turn, uses movement on 62)

DALG Window 61

Interesting to note about Luigi's setup, is that you can set the stick to neutral (effectively doing an empty pivot) or continue to hold back to go into dash, and both will ledge cancel and turn him, as both will have a total distance over 0.1Mm. Also his window is only 1 frame long, because it is past his first IASA frame, and thus cannot be buffered with an earlier input.

I also highlighted a universally useful setup in cyan. This is what people use for dash attack > walljump, where you dash attack towards a ledge, immediately start holding back, and on the first IASA frame will ledgecancel without turning.

Here is one more in-depth look into another character's DA

Mario DA
Total 48
IASA 38

Uninterrupted Velocity Values
37 - 0.14198
38 - 0.11705
39 - 0.09436
40 - 0.07392
41 - 0.05571
42 - 0.03978
43 - 0.02607
44 - 0.01463

Interrupting with Tilt Turn
Tilt turn on 38 - 0.08198 (still on stage) => 0.02198 (fall no turn)
Tilt turn on 39 - 0.05705 (still on stage) => 0.00000 (still on stage)
Tilt turn on 40 - 0.03436 (fall no turn, uses movement on 39)

Interrupting with Smash Turn
Smash turn on 38 - 0.08198 => ( neutral - 0.02198 (fall turned) / dash - 0.08198 (fall turned) )
Smash turn on 39 - 0.05705 => ( neutral - 0.00000 (still on stage) / dash - 0.05705 (fall turned) )
Smash turn on 40 - 0.03436 (fall no turn, uses movement on 39)

DALG Window 37-39

* These characters have substantial velocity during IASA frames and by the end of the whole attack. If they Dash Attack at a ledge, and turn as late as possible, they will instantly ledgecancel and won't turn, because you need to be in Smash Turn for at least 1 frame before ledgecancelling to perform a DALG. If they Dash attack at a ledge and wait till the end of the animation, they will go into Ottotto (ledge teetering) and all velocity will be cancelled. So they must space their dash attack to end very close to the edge. This ends up being very much like a PC drop, Mewtwo's is very good for this and can even use a buffered tilt turn.