Do you think Dr. Mario should of been in the final version of Brawl?

[cHooKay]

let's just put it like this, mario did inherit some of docs traits, not enough for him to be the doctor he was in melee but enough to become an improved mario that can easily pawn both of his melee counterparts. I mean come on, mario's bair is a killer move compared to both doc and mario of melee, and you can do two bairs in one short hop, something that couldn't have been done easily with both marios of the past. Ohh.. This isn't something you can sugar coat, DR. MARIO WAS THE LEADER OF ALL THE CLONES, THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A CLONE. If fans of the doc aren't satisfied with this new mario, well, then you don't like mario and you don't have to use him. That's just too bad, next time I'll bring napkins and everyone can cry on each others shoulders. Hahaha forreal though, this thread should be in the melee character section thread of doc. As a brawl disscussion this thread is kinda pointless in general. Let's move on forward, at least in brawl. If anything, we should be making threads about figuring out ways applying certain doc techniques for mario if anything, like pill rushing or something. I dunno, just a suggestion, you can go with it, or just think of me as somekind of rambling idiot who doesn't know anything, its up to you. I miss doc, but then again, he isn't generally different from mario. And most importantly, on the degree on how different he is to mario, he's no where on the same level with luigi on being a clone that is completely different, and doc isn't worth the trouble or the time to be "luigified", you might as well add in a different character in the roster. Me and my friends were thinking baby mario and baby luigi as a character exactly like the ice climbers are as a duo, that would've been a sweet "clone" to add instead of recycling another mario.....

 

[Half-Split Soul]

smashbro29: generally when you quote someone, you respond to their quote. I NEVER said that you people didn't play ssbm. I said you never mained doc. You didn't learn how to do "advanced techs with him," you didn't know how he played or anything.

In fact, by saying you liked mario better PROVES that you didn't main doc. Learn to read

Perfect007: my comment wasn't directed at any one person, just new-comers to the competitive scene (signing on to SWF being a big first step for many) who seem to think that they can talk when they simply don't have the same experience from melee as peopel who have been playing at a higher level longer <_<

And people who seem to think that beause mario assimilated some of docs traits that he's a replacement for us old time doc users... yeah some of his moves have Doc's properties, but his fireballs are not really like pills at all, docs tornado was pretty awesome (easiest to get a PTP, mashing the button at 8 imputs a second, as opposed to the 10/12 required for mario/doc).

However, as it's a new game, I'm not that upset that mario doesn't play like doc--the new dodge system and lack of comboing makes no character play like they were in melee.

I mained Doc in SSBM and know how to wawedash, L-cancel etc. and have been playing for many years, but still joined just recently (February 2008). I don´t say that I´m pro or anything, ´cause I´m not, but I certainly know what it feels to play Doc. I can´t play SSBM Mario at all, because I´m so used to Doc. The fact whether you have played competitively or not doesn´t matter, but the fact whether you know about the game or not. It´s true that usually competitive players have more experience than casual ones, but there still are casual players who could fight equally against pros and know just as much as them (not referring to myself).

And about the Doc in Brawl, it totally sucks that he´s not in, but it´s no use complaining about it. I understand why they took him out, since he´s (as cHooKay already said) a perfect example of a clone. He has identical moves compared to Mario (apart from the pills) with different effects. It would be awesome if he were alternative outfit or something, but no. So please could people just get over it and enjoy the game? If someone insists to play with Doc, there´s Melee.

 

[SpitFire15]

NO. WARIO ALONE IS SPECIAL.

Thanks for replying with a lame Sakurai quote.

 

[cHooKay]

Half-Split Soul, you pretty much got the point out clearly, but also take into consideration that the tech you mentioned was an advance tech, which wasn't intended on being in the game. Pretty much that's what diverted mario users and doc users into different groups, the fact that many of the advance tech (technically glitches) in melee applied different for each of the marios from melee. Many of them, including the L canceling and wavedashing that you mentioned are definitely out of brawl, and with those out of the way, it makes the appearance of doc less reasonable since Mario did inherited some of docs traits and for the fact as I stated before, doc is the epitone of a clone...

 

[volbound1700]

To be honest, Sakurai could have done another one of his remarkable jobs with Captain Falcon, Fox, ROB, Game & Watch creations here.

Dr. Mario for one needs to be a seperate brother... maybe a third brother that was smarter and went to Medical School. Sakurai should make it to where he could develop his own storyline and his own movesets mostly from Dr. Mario elements. I feel like there is a lot open here for creation and it could have been one of those great Smash Brothers moments.

 

[cHooKay]

volbound1700, umm what the heck are you talking about. Dr. Mario being a third brother!?!?!?!?!?!?! Hahah funny bro. That's totally on Miyamoto bro, the man who created Mario. Dr. Mario is Mario, its that simple man, HE IS MARIO, WEARING HIS DOCTOR CLOTHING, YES MARIO GOT A PHD IN THE MUSHROOM KINGDOM. With that stated, that's why if he were to be in brawl, he'll be a clone still because it is just mario wearing his doctor clothing. What more can you do to change Mario that much to a point where its just not mario anymore? You might as well throw in tanooki mario and frog mario in the mix if you really want a different mario form. Let me put it like this, if doc was in the subspace emissary, here's how his intro would be. Somebody is getting attack by giant viruses, mario runs into them, and starts changing his outfit to his doc clothes. He's a plumber and a doctor. Besides "Twilight Princess" Zelda transforming to shiek, which was done so that fans can still play as shiek even though it bends the rules of the official zelda story universe, Smash brothers wasn't created to change characters in any shape, form or fashion. Don't complicate it now, it's called super smash bros brawl not super smash soap opera....

 

[cHooKay]

hahaha, on another note, if they wanted to add another character into the mix to boot out doc, I think another clone should be appropriate in this case. Me and my friends agree that they should clone the ice climbers, and the clones of them would be no other than mario and luigi themselves simultaneously at the same time like the ice climbers, only in their baby forms like in yoshi island, yoshi island ds, and mario and luigi partners in time. Baby mario and Baby luigi as a single character would've been instant favs, especially for all who have played their games, it would've been great if they were like that in brawl..

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Half-Split Soul, you pretty much got the point out clearly, but also take into consideration that the tech you mentioned was an advance tech, which wasn't intended on being in the game. Pretty much that's what diverted mario users and doc users into different groups, the fact that many of the advance tech (technically glitches) in melee applied different for each of the marios from melee. Many of them, including the L canceling and wavedashing that you mentioned are definitely out of brawl, and with those out of the way, it makes the appearance of doc less reasonable since Mario did inherited some of docs traits and for the fact as I stated before, doc is the epitone of a clone...

Good point. Those are out in Brawl, but I actually found two Marios completely different to play even when not using ATs. Might just be me, but anyway... I think that if Doc were in Brawl he should either have different moves than Mario or appear as a costume.

volbound1700, umm what the heck are you talking about. Dr. Mario being a third brother!?!?!?!?!?!?! Dude what are you thinking! That's totally on Miyamoto bro, the man who created Mario. Dr. Mario is Mario, its that simple man, HE IS MARIO, WEARING HIS DOCTOR CLOTHING, YES MARIO GOT A PHD IN THE MUSHROOM KINGDOM ALRIGHT? With that stated, that's why if he were to be in brawl, he'll be a clone still because it is just mario wearing his doctor clothing. What more can you do to change Mario that much to a point where its just not mario anymore? You might as well throw in tanooki mario and frog mario in the mix if you really want a different mario form. Let me put it like this, if doc was in the subspace emissary, here's how his intro would be. Somebody is getting attack by giant viruses, mario runs into them, and starts changing his outfit to his doc clothes. He's a plumber and a doctor. Besides "Twilight Princess" Zelda transforming to shiek, which was done so that fans can still play as shiek even though it bends the rules of the official zelda story universe, Smash brothers wasn't created to change characters in any shape, form or fashion. Don't complicate it now, it's called super smash bros brawl not super smash soap opera....

New character in Super Smash Bros. Fight: Power Up Mario! Down b makes mario to transform between fire Mario, raccoon Mario, frog Mario, cape Mario, metal Mario and flying Mario, each with his own specials and own advantages and disadvantages! Now you can play with all your favorite Marios!

And yes, Baby Mario & Baby Luigi would be awesome, but there´s no reason why they should be Ice Climbers clone since they don´t use wooden mallets or anything... It would be better to give them the same playstyle (two chars simultaneously) but totally unique and different moves.

 

[cHooKay]

Baby Mario and Baby Luigi's combat skills were first displayed in Partners in time, well at least after Yoshi's Island with super baby mario. In Partners in time, besides jumping on oponnents, the soley battle with hammers, which goes to my point of how they would've made them perfect as luigified clones.
Sorry if my post are straying away from the main point of this thread. Besides that, Mario in his doc clothing didn't make it to brawl, and making him extremely different just for the sake of having him different in brawl would just contradict the entity that is just mario. In reallity, in the mario universe, when mario becomes the doc, he has no specially abilities. All mario does as a doctor is throwing his specially prescriptedly made pills at viruses who are bent on making people sick. ...

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Baby Mario and Baby Luigi's combat skills were first displayed in Partners in time, well at least after Yoshi's Island with super baby mario. In Partners in time, besides jumping on oponnents, the soley battle with hammers, which goes to my point of how they would've made them perfect as luigified clones.
Sorry if my post are straying away from the main point of this thread. Besides that, Mario in his doc clothing didn't make it to brawl, and making him extremely different just for the sake of having him different in brawl would just contradict the entity that is just mario. In reallity, in the mario universe, when mario becomes the doc, he has no specially abilities. All mario does as a doctor is throwing his specially prescriptedly made pills at viruses who are bent on making people sick. ...

I just think that it wouldn´t fit Babies if they fought solely with hammers... It´s only my opinion, but I think that it would be cooler if their attacks would differ from IC´s and they would attack almost completely with team-based techniques. Their attacks could also be slightly modified things from the games they appear (U-b would allow them to fly with the bubble from Yoshi´s island etc.)

And I agree that Doc shouldn´t be completely different than Mario if he were a secret char in Brawl (super strenght or something) but that he could have somehow different moves. Many of Mario´s moves were made from nothing in the first place (correct me if I´m wrong) so it shouldn´t be so strange if Doc´s moves would vary a bit from them (different smashes, U-b going more horizontally and less vertically than Mario´s or something like that).

But generally speaking I don´t usually like clones because I tend to see wasted potential when there´re two chars with almost identical moves. That´s why I think that Doc should be in Brawl either as a costume or differ from Mario more than in Melee.

 

[OverlordCrono]

In my opinion, Dr. Mario was just a clone, aside from a few differences and a cool look. Maybe if he had a new moveset, he'd be better, but I honestly doubt it. So I only can see him returning is as a alternate costume for Mario. No offense to fans of the Doc.

 

[Agent 47]

Dr. Mario should've been back in brawl. just tweak his moveset and give him a couple more differences from mario.

 

[Atacusbebop123]

No, he would've made a sweet costume

 

[St. Viers]

@cHoKay: Learn to read. I never said that I wanted him in brawl, I was just saying that I don't want scrubs who think they are good to be making pronouncements. I wasn't attacking anyone specifically, I was just pissed at the number of people WHO DIDN'T MAIN/LIKE doc in melee commenting.

Also, you could SH double b-air.

Also, regarding "but also take into consideration that the tech you mentioned was an advance tech, which wasn't intended on being in the game. Pretty much that's what diverted mario users and doc users into different groups, the fact that many of the advance tech (technically glitches) in melee applied different for each of the marios from melee. Many of them, including the L canceling and wavedashing that you mentioned are definitely out of brawl, and with those out of the way, it makes the appearance of doc less reasonable since Mario did inherited some of docs traits and for the fact as I stated before, doc is the epitone of a clone..."

I'm not saying that you are one of those "ZOMG WDing was a glitch that ruined melee" people, but as we are discovering more ways to exploit the brawl physics engine (remember that there is a difference between exploits and glitches), with things like Lucas' jump properties, b-sticking, and most importantly Squirtles hydoplaning and other boost smashes, what is to say that dr. mario couldn't have benefited from these exploits differently from mario (such as more push from using B attacks ,making his b-sticking different, or something.

Please just read what I write, and don't come to false cnclusions people, it's dumb having to reexplain myself >_<

Plus, I cry into tissues, it's less rough

So don't bash me for **** like that--I'll start actuallly arguing, and you'll all lose.

Joker: yes, lack of comboing. I've up-aired someone across the stage in brawl, but that was because they were to stupid to airdodge...Please don't even try to say that mario can combo like he did in melee.

Half-Split Soul: I agree. I'm upset that he didn't come back, but I'm not saying he should be in it. People just can't read--because they assume that if I'm saying something against one point I'm completely against them... :rolls eyes: Also, although you joined recently, you mained doc. Thus when I say "people who joined oct/sept 07, and never really mained doc, it doesn't include you. (people not being able to read much?)

 

[cHooKay]

Ummm, yeah, ummm sure man whatever... and umm I was implying that sh double bair was easier to do with brawl mario than it was in melee with both counterparts. On a side note, I don't believe I was directing anything towards you. As for the whole reading thing, remember this....

"Please just read what I write, and don't come to false cnclusions people, it's dumb having to reexplain myself >_<"

How about learning how to write better, and maybe I'll read better bro.

Adding doc in the game contradicts mario as a character; adding him in brawl as an alt would've seemed appropriate because in a general sense, there just can't be two mario at the same time. If that were to be the case, we might as well throw in all the different types of marios, all the different versions of fox and falco (ooh, how about snes pixelated Fox vs assualt fox), the different types of peachs (even the one when she's a nurse from the doc series), all the different pikachus including the surfing pikachu, all the different types of bowsers from every single series including the one when bowser body was taken over by Crackletta in Mario and Luigi SSS, jigglypuff from the anime with her mic, metaknight with and without his mask, every single incarnation of zelda, ganondorf and Link from the Zelda series, etc... Each and every single version of these characters can have their own moveset, hey we can even rename this whole entire game. How about Super Smash Bros: Attack of the Alternate Egos? I mean if we can have two marios, then why not have four links or three versions of samus. how about a humanoid game and watch? Then get this, we could create a story mode like in brawl, with cutscenes and everything, all the alternate versions of a single character can meet up with each other and have a blast! Great idea right, clustering Smash bros with the same character right?

Take note of the sarcasm here: clustering a game's character slots with the same person, I don't know, I rather have somebody different if you ask me. You might as well play Mugen, or even better than that, melee....

 

[St. Viers]

"Ohh.. This isn't something you can sugar coat, DR. MARIO WAS THE LEADER OF ALL THE CLONES, THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A CLONE. If fans of the doc aren't satisfied with this new mario, well, then you don't like mario and you don't have to use him. That's just too bad, next time I'll bring napkins and everyone can cry on each others shoulders."
<-- If not directed solely at me, it was directed at old doc users (me included)

And how is my writing in any way bad? (Curious, because if I'm being unclear, I'd like to know how, as to avoid that problem in the future) Though as a personal attack that was kind of a pissy thing to do

And in case this isn't clear, I'm not trolling when I asked about:

"I'm not saying that you are one of those "ZOMG WDing was a glitch that ruined melee" people, but as we are discovering more ways to exploit the brawl physics engine (remember that there is a difference between exploits and glitches), with things like Lucas' jump properties, b-sticking, and most importantly Squirtles hydoplaning and other boost smashes, what is to say that dr. mario couldn't have benefited from these exploits differently from mario (such as more push from using B attacks ,making his b-sticking different, or something."

I'm honestly interested in what you think about that

 

[HiIH]

I MISS MAH DOC.

Seriously, Mario's moveset drives me crazy. It's NOTHING like docs, despite what you wish to believe.
Mario and Doc were different enough in melee that I couldn't use Mario at all.

I still beleive that Doc shoulda been in Brawl. At least we know he wouldnt have a squirt gun. Plus, I made his down B look good. It actually does have a few uses contrary to populer belief. Now when I try to recover I take out my squirt gun and die. Yay.

Contrary to popular belief, what? It was popular belief that this was one of the few things you could do to make Doc's recovery better (even though to it's max, it sucked ballz), you just had to do it before your DJ.

Clone hate is stupid.

Half-Split Soul, you pretty much got the point out clearly, but also take into consideration that the tech you mentioned was an advance tech, which wasn't intended on being in the game.

Wrowng. L cancelling was in 64, and instead of getting taken out was instead changed. In 64 it reduced all lag to 0. In melee it changed it to half. So if they knew about it, then why wasn't it taken out if it wasn't intended to be in?

WDing was in no way a glitch. It was something that happened when you air dodged into the stage. It was TECHNICALLY an abuse of something that needed to happen when you performed a certain action. Not a glitch.

 

[cHooKay]

hmm a little sensitive on the subject matter huh? Dude relax, sheesh. Anyways, that WDing explaination sounds every bit like a glitch to me, you really think something like that was an intention? As far as that L canceling thing, I believe it was a glitch in both games, tricking it into thinking that your character was trying to pull up a shield, thus rushing the frames to take that into an account. I don't think something like that was suposed to be intended in both 64 and melee, if so, talk to sakurai and let me know...:bigthumbu

 

[St. Viers]

HiIH: Actually, Magus debunked that myth that the time you used the PTP was important

And also, cHooKay never said it was a glitch: he said it wasn't INTENDED. Again, try to understand the difference between a glitch and an exploit <_<

@cHooKay: Mugen rocks XD
Also, w/ re: to HiIH's post, see the difference between him and me? yeah... I'm trying to actually converse.

oh, and I guess that as doc isn't in brawl, my above question is solely hypothetical.

Anyways, no hard feelings man.

 

[HiIH]

Anyways, your WDing explaination sounds every bit like a glitch to me, you really think something like that was an intention?

It's not a glitch, it's more of an exploit. SOMETHING had to have happened when you air dodged, because of the physics engine. Why do you think Directional Airdodging is out?

As far as that L canceling thing, I believe it was a glitch in both games, tricking it into thinking that your character was trying to pull up a shield, thus rushing the frames to take that into an account. I don't think something like that was suposed to be intended in both 64 and melee, if so, talk to sakurai and let me know...

And that totally explains why it was changed from 0 to half.

And also, cHooKay never said it was a glitch: he said it wasn't INTENDED. Again, try to understand the difference between a glitch and an exploit <_<

Nah, he said Glitch. I just didn't quote the next sentence.

The only reason I responded the way I did, is because the air of smugness in his posts pissed me off.

 

[cHooKay]

as for the physics applying differently for doc in smash, of course it would've applied differently towards him. However, it still adds a conflict with mario. Mario did gain a lot of buffs for the compensation of doc, adding doc would be a waste. Let's just say the two were in brawl, either of the two results would've probably happened. Case A: Mario would've been extremely nerfed so that doc would appeal more as different making mario a useless character. Case B: Doc would've been extremely buffed, in this case he would become to strong compared to mario and a great deal of other characters. Both cases would result in an inbalance between the characters within brawl, which was something Sakurai was shooting for when he made this game. This possibility, and a handful of other reason too, supports docs absence...

 

[cHooKay]

(eck, that post above uploaded a little late) anyways this thread is getting off topic. I thought this topic was about doc? And umm HiIH, breathe in, slowly, and exhale out all the hot air bro. Relax dude, don't go all super saiyan 17 on me just because of a few comments you read on the internet alright. If it makes you feel better, you know anything and everything about Smash, in fact, forget about Sakurai, you created smash. I've should've known better than that, sheesh, my bad. If I had a cookie, I'll give to ya right away for all the bad blood I started.

 

[dinhotheone]

you can tell which people arent qualified to have this conversation. doc and mario were played extremely different in melee, you would know this if you mained either. its like luigi and mario in ssb64 did anyone play those guys similarly? either way, the problem isnt how similar they were played but that thier move sets looked too similar which is probably the main deciding factor of mleee-> brawl. he shoulda been a constume though. you cant give starfox 3 clones and not leave the doc as at least a costume, in my mind that was the biggest crime sakurai commited.

chookay....wtf are you talking about, both posts are either incoherent or just plain wrong. i thank you for the double post however, such a high level of -intelligence per post, left undilluted would have created a black hole.

also @ chookay
last page you said you dont understand how wavedashing isnt a glitch...
its not intention that matters in this case, no sakurai did not mean to have us wavedash, this was made apparent by its removal in brawl. however, he did mean for people to waveland, and he did mean for people to airdodge. he just never expected these two mechanics to thrive in such a symbiotic state. unexpected uses for game mechanics that were deliberately put in the game are not glitches.

or to put it differently: wavedashing doesnt exist. its the result of two techniques used in tandem, you must look at the waveland and the airdodge, not the resulting sliding mechanic.

 

[cHooKay]

dinhotheone, or shall I say, dr. Phil, wolf is pretty different from fox and falco, to a point where you almost can't call him a clone (besides their final smash and the practical usage of some of their b moves). Although I do believe doc should've been an alt in brawl, if your making contradicting statements (the whole three clone fox thing) as such, and calling people unqualified to actually conversate within this thread, maybe you're right? I'm out...

 

[dinhotheone]

ROFL conversate? i never said that, because that word doesnt exist. however allow me to clarify if i confused you: what i dont think people are qualified to do is talk about the differences between mario/dmario in melee, when they never used em at a level when their differences become apparent. as for wolf and falco/fox, leme examine the comparison: they play different, but have some similar moves. sounds like dmario and mario in melee to me. now what did we call that duo??? clones. wolf is at the least, a soft clone and even if he was completely different, even if he didnt make it into the game, even if sakurai removed ALL clones from brawl, doc STILL shoulda been a costume, i think you can agree with me there at least.

As for contradictions....im not really seeing any. i do say the marios play different melee but their moves look the same. however those are two different things.

 

[cHooKay]

you can tell which people arent qualified to have this conversation. .

Yeah, umm, yeah... conversation~conversate. Umm. Yeah man, umm, idk? Maybe because you typed this. Anyways, with that I'm officially out for good. Yeah, you can reply back, but if you think I'm going to read it, your wasting your time on me. Later...

 

[dinhotheone]

converse is the word you're looking for, conjugation of the english language can be tricky for some, its okay though, just keep at it.

as for being gone for good, and then saying "later"...later is fine with me.

either way to keep things on topic: can anyone think of any good moves that coulda been added to indentify dmario as more than a clone if he had been transformed from melee to brawl?