Do you think customizable movesets will effect the comp scene in anyway?

[LancerStaff]

I've heard several people say this, and maybe I don't remember everything from the Direct, but I'm pretty sure this was not explicitly stated. If it's a feature that requires the 3DS version, of course no one will take it seriously!

No, I believe this will be a fully functional feature for both versions. If there has been a statement to the contrary, please post some source. I'm on mobile and can't be doing much searching.

Er, I can't do much searching either. But I know that the first interviews talking about customization mentioned that you could transfer from 3DS to Wii U and not the other way around, and that Sakurai has compared SSB3D to a training ground for the Wii U game. The customization is the big connectivity feature, and it's sounding like it may not be able to be used without both.

 

[Aninymouse]

Er, I can't do much searching either. But I know that the first interviews talking about customization mentioned that you could transfer from 3DS to Wii U and not the other way around, and that Sakurai has compared SSB3D to a training ground for the Wii U game. The customization is the big connectivity feature, and it's sounding like it may not be able to be used without both.

That may be so, and I remember comments about connectivity being made several times. However, anytime connectivity was mentioned, it was always couched with the statement that "further details will explain this later."

So really, back to square one until we get some clarification. But like I said, if custom moves require both games to use on the WiiU, there is likely no place for them in serious play.

 

[Brother AJ]

I understand the complications that may arrive for including custom move-sets within the competitive scene, but I'm honestly also of the opinion that each move must be looked at separately in order to determine it's merit. I suppose only time will tell, as we definitely need more information concerning the properties of these attacks.

Although, if I have a chance to replace Link's stupid piece of **** Gale Boomerang for a standard one I don't care what the hell anyone says, I'm going to do it. I can think of many examples like this one that would certainly not break the game.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

Honestly, whether or not custom specials wind up in competitive will depend on how quickly these things can be adjusted and/or equipped from the character select menu.

Though even then, I'd say that chances are we'll be using the default characters for any and all legitimate competitive battles.

 

[Moon Monkey]

This video pretty much sums up all of my opinions on the subject matter:

Things that I'm hoping for:
*Customization will only effect specials (, , and )

1) There will be 2 to 3 custom movesets for each special a character has that players could choose from.
2) Each of these custom moves have an obvious pro and con.
3) The competitive community, after much trial and error, will evaluate these movesets and ban the ones they deem imbalanced.

 

[Aninymouse]

This video pretty much sums up all of my opinions on the subject matter:

Things that I'm hoping for:
*Customization will only effect specials (, , and )

1) There will be 2 to 3 custom movesets for each special a character has that players could choose from.
2) Each of these custom moves have an obvious pro and con.
3) The competitive community, after much trial and error, will evaluate these movesets and ban the ones they deem imbalanced.

*If* all the factors line up so that it seems plausible to allow these, that means that none of them are going to appear broken at first. If you have custom specials that are heavily unbalanced, that kind of paints the entire feature in a bad light, and custom specials will likely not be very important in general, as a result. But, assuming all the factors line up nicely and none of the moves appear busted, people would be more forgiving down the road if a certain technique proved to be overpowered in certain matchups, or other unforseen balance issues that require more time and play to discover. Think about King DeDeDe's infinite wall grab combo, for instance. Stages with walls got banned. If, say, Yoshi's custom down B #2 was an infinite combo on Falco for some reason, and it wasn't the stage's fault, the tech would be banned. If too many of those kind of matchups show their ugly head, then that doesn't bode well for the feature in general.

But hey, I'm just trying to stay realistic and plot out courses of action based on possible outcomes. It's all just conjecture. Here's hoping it's a fun, balanced, and viable feature that we can use in future tournaments, though! I guess we'll know this summer, or at the earliest, at E3.

**EDIT

The main reason I liked your post was because of the video. The fella in that video made a lot of my same points. He also made a lot of giant leaps into conjecture, however, so only time will tell if that confidence was well-placed. Here's hoping custom moves are able to consistantly add the depth of play that the youtuber in that video is building the case for.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

*If* all the factors line up so that it seems plausible to allow these, that means that none of them are going to appear broken at first. If you have custom specials that are heavily unbalanced, that kind of paints the entire feature in a bad light, and custom specials will likely not be very important in general, as a result.

Thing about that is that we're currently in such a grey area information-wise about this sort of thing that all we can do is speculate, and heavily so. I think it's a bit too early to crucify customized specials 'cause the odds are it's not even going to be an issue at all. The only people that will likely wind up using this feature are people looking for a leg up in the single player modes, or looking to beat their friends easier locally, where that sort of thing is going to be a factor.

Using what we DO know about customized specials, it looks like they took a Team Fortress 2 angle on them. Yeah, your fireball goes straight, but it doesn't do much damage. Cool, your fireball is large and does more damage, but it's slow, has a longer windup and disappears faster. Sure, DK's headbutt has super armor and probably does more damage, but it's got windup and is easily punished. Will some of the customized specials be stronger than the normal ones? Inevitably, no-one's perfect. Is it going to be game breaking level of strength? Nah. You'll have people simply preferring that one over the stock, default special.

Again, though, the problem lies in the fact that it's more than likely not even going to be used at all competitively.

 

[Aninymouse]

Thing about that is that we're currently in such a grey area information-wise about this sort of thing that all we can do is speculate, and heavily so. I think it's a bit too early to crucify customized specials 'cause the odds are it's not even going to be an issue at all. The only people that will likely wind up using this feature are people looking for a leg up in the single player modes, or looking to beat their friends easier locally, where that sort of thing is going to be a factor.

Using what we DO know about customized specials, it looks like they took a Team Fortress 2 angle on them. Yeah, your fireball goes straight, but it doesn't do much damage. Cool, your fireball is large and does more damage, but it's slow and disappears faster. Sure, DK's headbutt has super armor and probably does more damage, but it's got windup and is easily punished. Will some of the customized specials be stronger than the normal ones? Inevitably, no-one's perfect. Is it going to be game breaking level of strength? Nah. You'll have people simply preferring that one over the stock, default special.

Again, though, the problem lies in the fact that it's more than likely not even going to be used at all competitively.

I agree with most of your post, but I do have one reservation. I'll explain it and then move on to a seperate, philosophical point.

It is mere conjecture on your part that a majority of competitive players would desire to shun this feature, if it does indeed turn out to be a valid and fun feature for competitive matches.

It's easy to predict that if this feature is poorly executed, no one will pay it any attention in serious matches. However, if the feature is good and viable, then it is simply a matter of who wants to give it a shot. In such a scenario, you have a new class of feature on par with the stages themselves. But, if someone were to shun a feature because it is new and different (but for no other reason), that would be... a person with a different set of priorities and values than I. That'd be like having a friend who wouldn't play with you unless you kept all the items on. After a while, you'd get kind of annoyed at his dogmatic stance on items, because, presumably, you enjoy playing without them more.

People play Smash primarily because they enjoy the game, or because of the benefits of playing the game. If and if and if this feature is fun and viable, some people will want to use it, and some won't. There's no sense in forcing people to use custom moves. I can't make you have fun, y'know?

So if the custom moves are legit and fair and fun and competitive, I would only assume it will split the community and seperate brackets or even events might have to take place.

Virtually everyone who wants to play competitively in Smash agrees that items aren't fair or competitive. If custom moves are fair and competitive, the only logical way to reconcile this is to accomodate both groups. That's my philosophical point.

But who knows. Maybe it'll be a terrible feature, and it won't matter in a few months, anyway. Or maybe it'll be awesome.

 

[NewGuy79]

would it do use any good at this point to speculate just how custom specials would be introduced into the competitive scene (if its even possible).

you'd think that they would embrace this potential extra layer of competitive counter play, after all if custom move sets give a lot more mid tier characters options against some of the high tier's (spacies for example) I'd actually see the competitive community pushing for it.

 

[ChunkyBeef]

you'd think that they would embrace this potential extra layer of competitive counter play, after all if custom move sets give a lot more mid tier characters options against some of the high tier's (spacies for example) I'd actually see the competitive community pushing for it.

As I've said before, how readily this aspect of the game is accepted competitively depends wholly on how easy it is to equip the specials in question. If you can equip them easily from character select a la Marvel vs. Capcom 3? I can see this being a huge factor in adding a layer of competitive counter play, and I welcome that kind of thing. It's going to make some tier builders cry, but I think it's great.

The moment the process takes more than an extra five or ten seconds to get into a battle though, it's going to get dropped like a hot rock. I'm not saying that to be silly, or cynical, but wasting time is essentially the entire reason why Melee/Project M are explosively popular and Brawl is the bench warmer. There's a reason why people are genuinely considering decreasing competitive Brawl matches to a single stock. The games are too slow to be interesting to watch, and as a spectator for years, I know that. I love Brawl to death, more than I love Melee, but I'm not so jaded that I can't see why people love Melee more over Brawl. Melee is hype because matches end quick, and when they don't, there's always a good and interesting reason it doesn't.

tl;dr: Customizable specials' fate depends solely on how quickly they can be edited, and not what impact (good or bad) they can make.

 

[NewGuy79]

tl;dr: Customizable specials' fate depends solely on how quickly they can be edited, and not what impact (good or bad) they can make.

your right on the money man, but this has me worried..

what are our chances to avoiding custom move sets being regulated to an alternate mode? I'ld think that Sakurai would push custom move sets to the for front since they probably take a lot of effort. but all prior examples of customization in smash has always been locked behind menus, guess well just have to wait and see.

 

[Aninymouse]

I feel only defaults will be had at tournaments for certain. However, unlike items or many stages, this is a new stipulation to the tourney scene.

Give the game a year of meta and experimentation before this can be decided. I'm edging on the unoptimistic side due to how tradition reigns, but if we don't know the lengths of the customization then we can't make any conclusions.

I agree with Lax. They're not likely to be supported at first, but we also have next to no information to back up a decision either way, at this point.

Also, bumping the topic because it was suggested.

 

[TheMasterGinta]

I know when I start TOing Smash 4 tournaments I will allow it. However, the biggest problem I see with this is how long it could take to finish up. This depends on how long it takes to customize of course, which we don't know yet. I use to be in the Dissidia competitive scene, where you can customize your entire character's movesets as well as other niches and use them in competitive play (minus a few broken combinations). It worked out well, and this seems to be way less extensive, so besides time and (maybe) balance, I see no reason why not to include it.

 

[Hong]

I'm going to hope they are balanced, thought-provoking decisions.

Smash Bros could use another layer of customization. I like how other fighters let you choose a super move of some sort.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

After getting a better explanation of it. It seems to be fine. I hope it buffs those lower tier characters. Its Palutena's gimmick so I think it should be allowed. If you guys don't know much about it heres a link. http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

 

[Chauzu]

Anyone who writes custom movesets off without the game even being released (and thus not having all facts on the table) is seriously taking things too fast.

Let's take a chill pill and see how this turns out. If it isn't suitable for the competetive scene it won't be used. If it could be used but has already been written of beforehand it would just be stupid.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

The only way I see this happening is when we see a pretty big discrepancy in character balance in the future.

 

[Ginger Hail]

I think it's safe to say that the future of customization in competitive play lies within how quickly things can be customized. If you were able to save a profile with your customs on it and transfer it via controller/Amiibo/other method, then I think there could be a place for it. If it requires navigating through several other menus, I think they'll be banned.

 

[Heavy C4]

I think it's safe to say that the future of customization in competitive play lies within how quickly things can be customized. If you were able to save a profile with your customs on it and transfer it via controller/Amiibo/other method, then I think there could be a place for it. If it requires navigating through several other menus, I think they'll be banned.

I think Custom move sets can also be in tournaments if you can do them in the character selection menu like how you select your assist in marvel or ultra/super in street fighter.

EDIT:

You can customize move sets on the character select menu. This is looking tournament viable.

 

[Aninymouse]

Copied from the identical thread in the E3 subforum:

I've made a lot of posts about this topic in the past, in the WiiU subforum. My stance has always been that we need to wait until we either have a LOT more information on how these perform, or wait until the game comes out, for us to make any definitive judgments about custom moves. My stance hasn't changed. We got more examples of how this is going to work at E3, but we haven't really seen it in action in a real match setting. We still know basically nothing, though a lot of my (pro-custom moves) assumptions have been proven correct thus far, like the number being not very high (12 moves per moveset, including the standard specials), most appearing to be very balanced in speed vs. power, etc. However, things like matchup theory, knockback, combo potential, techs, et all, are all still up in the air. The finer points need to be known.

A lot of the trepidation over the moves just comes from people's fear. Not everyone, mind you, but some people. Fear of the unknown, imagined fears of complications that aren't likely to arise (in my view), etc. What's the best antidote to fear? Truth. The more truth and facts we have on the subject, the more rational we can be.

I basically agree with everything @@Amazing Ampharos has been saying in this thread. I think that, while there will undoubtedly -- undoubtedly -- be some tournaments that ban them, I can foresee plenty of times when they will be legal, especially as the game is just being discovered early on. Maybe we will find them very pleasant to use, maybe they suck. It remains to be seen.

Now, how deep does the rabbit hole go?

This "equipment" mechanic seems to mirror the Smash Run stats, only it operates under ratios and not buffing the stats up as much as possible. So if you raise speed, you lose attack power, and so on. This "equipment" feature may or may not be just as viable as the custom moves, but we know less about this than we do about the custom moves! It was literally just mentioned in passing during the closed-doors Q&A session with Sakurai, to a few journalists. We really need to wait and see how good or bad this is, but I have a feeling the "equipment" thing will not be as widely accepted, due to the very real possibility that there will be a greater NUMBER of possible "armor" pieces relative to each character, than with the custom moves (which is a constant 12 moves per moveset standard, as I suspected).

What about the figures?

The figurines are a separate system altogether. They're a whole other feature that, while they do incorporate custom moves, are not responsible for how the player plays the main game, i.e. VS matches with friends and rivals. The figures load up computer-controlled characters with custom stats and abilities, who duke it out with other CPU-controlled characters. There may be other nuances, but we will not be using the figures at conventional tournaments. This game mode is akin to the arcade games in Japan where you buy cards for bugs or dinosaurs, scan them into the arcade machine, and then watch them battle the CPU and "grow," the results being saved to your character's account. It's essentially a totally separate game within Smash Bros.

Edit: The official website has further details on the "equippable items" feature:

http://www.smashbros.com/us/howto/entry2.html

It seems that there may be some merit to them, since they are likely controlled from the same submenu as the moves, however... I see a much greater increase to complexity, here. Like I said, there may be more than 12 of these per character. But let's say there's 12 armor pieces per character. The combinations of these armor attributes and the custom moves is a multiplicative number or results. The moves themselves are easily understood and researched, but the armor pieces are altering the more immaterial aspects of a character, such as their (possibly) speed, weight, launch resistance, knockback, power, etc. These are the kinds of changes that many, MANY people on this forum (myself included) are not keen on at all. It's just too technical. It cannot be mastered by a normal person. It's hard enough to balance a cast of, let's say, 45 characters or so, let alone a game where there are over 144 versions of each character. It's likely exponential, I'm just too bad at algebra to trust an exact calculation of mine.

 

[LiteralGrill]

We know custom moves are banned... From the Wii U version which can't use them without the 3DS one. They're banned from SSBU's online so it's an even battleground. Sakurai was about as clear as mud when it came to SSB3D's online features, remember?

To be a bit more on track, I believe the Wii U scene won't use custom moves while the 3DS scene will. I'll bet the 3DS scene as a whole will be much more liberal than the Wii U's while I'm at it.

Since I seem to be the only person extremely dedicated to supporting the 3DS version (if there's any other TOs making plans please let me know) I can say I'll give them a go for my tournaments, and agree we might be a bit more liberal then smash on the Wii U. We have perfect ground to experiement PLUS it's more likely since we bring our own consoles that the time factor for things will be less.

Too many of you seem confident that we can throw custom movesets into the competitive/backroom oven and get results.

First, I laughed at the backroom being relevant. No one ever listens to the backroom unless they are telling them what they want to hear. The only people who matter are your top players and TOs.

Yeah, we don't have anecdotes for the actual experience, but then again you're already wanting to write off the input of the majority, who don't even want to try it.

But also, majority rules is a HORRIBLE reason to make decisions, look how well that worked in Brawl when we IGNORED THE MAJORITY OPINIONS ON MANY THINGS till they all left when they saw we were an immovable wall for no reason. If the majority rules, we'd have items in Brawl and a ton more stages. The old guard of players honestly need to suck it up and follow:

DO NOT BAN UNTIL PROVEN BANWORTHY​

Yeah, your big TOs and players you admire are banning things just because they don't like them without testing. You wanna know what we call people who just ban things because they don't like them? SCRUBS. I'm usually a nice guy and hate being that way, but it's true what people are doing by just suggesting they should be banned because they don't like them is scrubby. But hey, we can keep being scrubby and wonder why other people justifiably laugh at us all the time if you want

I'm giving them a go in every event I run until they're proven to be an issue that can't be solved.

 

[NewGuy79]

I think Custom move sets can also be in tournaments if you can do them in the character selection menu like how you select your assist in marvel or ultra/super in street fighter.

EDIT:

You can customize move sets on the character select menu. This is looking tournament viable.

THANK GOODNESS

just how accessible custom move sets would be is one of the major factors for whether custom move could be adapted into the competitive scene, now that we know that well be able to access them easily and quickly we just might be able to make them work...

I got work right now ao im gona write some more bout this latter ( this got me legit exited the possibilities are HUGE )

 

[Heavy C4]

Check this out. After the pacman battle, Sakurai talk about Custom move sets.

 

[HeroMystic]

Each Special has 3 types of custom abilities.

Honestly, I will be very annoyed if the Smash Community doesn't give them a chance.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Each Special has 3 types of custom abilities.

Honestly, I will be very annoyed if the Smash Community doesn't give them a chance.

I will be doing so for my 3DS tournaments. I wont ban them unless they become a problem.

 

[stan423321]

Okay, so after recent infodump, we know that there are 2 replacements for each special for each character. However, there are also stat boosters of sorts. In the demo, customization wasn't accessible at all, and there was a suspicious black screen between character selection and stage selection, so the place where you adjust the customizations is not determinated yet.

I don't know tournament scene too much, but I'm pretty sure stat boosters will be banned.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I really want to see these custom moves make it in. They'd add a whole other layer of counterpicking, not to mention make dittos less stale, because two people playing one character can be using different moves. Plus it could make matchups more even in cases. Say you're a character with a bad offstage game vs one with amazing offstage. Normally that would be a huge problem, but you could change your Up B for extra recovery to try and offset that. It's very intriguing. Smash 4 is looking more and more like a totally different beast to what we're used to and I hope we treat it as such.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I hit the nail on the head! I said that there would be 2 other versions of special movers, and that was it, nothing else crazy and I was right!

Anyway, I think that the competitive community should look into this. As it can create some very unique gameplay. I think that a counter pick system would be in order though to prevent if anything was overpowered.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I feel like the items, especially on the Wii U having to transfer them all with every variation imaginable will be insane logistically to do. the custom moves shouldn't be as difficult and should work just fine.

 

[LancerStaff]

I feel like the items, especially on the Wii U having to transfer them all with every variation imaginable will be insane logistically to do. the custom moves shouldn't be as difficult and should work just fine.

The items are probably randomly generated, going by KIU.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I hit the nail on the head! I said that there would be 2 other versions of special movers, and that was it, nothing else crazy and I was right!

Anyway, I think that the competitive community should look into this. As it can create some very unique gameplay. I think that a counter pick system would be in order though to prevent if anything was overpowered.

I think this has a lot of potential. As other people have said, this could be something that could save bottom/low tier characters from being complete crap. Warlock Punch, PK Flash, and FLUDD not being utter garbage? What's not to like? Plus this will definitely help if we run into another issue like Mach Tornado again.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I think this has a lot of potential. As other people have said, this could be something that could save bottom/low tier characters from being complete crap. Warlock Punch, PK Flash, and FLUDD not being utter garbage? What's not to like? Plus this will definitely help if we run into another issue like Mach Tornado again.

I think that this would give SSB4 its own flavor from Brawl and Melee and be VERY fun to watch competitively.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Fatman, all those moves you listed have their uses, it is only Warlock Punch that is redundant because Ganondorf already has a shieldbreak finisher (his up-tilt).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fatman, all those moves you listed have their uses, it is only Warlock Punch that is redundant because Ganondorf already has a shieldbreak finisher (his up-tilt).

But they're very, very situational. Warlock Punch, for example, is so slow that you pretty much have to break your opponent's shield to land it, something that's pretty hard to do in Brawl to begin with.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

I hit the nail on the head! I said that there would be 2 other versions of special movers, and that was it, nothing else crazy and I was right!

Anyway, I think that the competitive community should look into this. As it can create some very unique gameplay. I think that a counter pick system would be in order though to prevent if anything was overpowered.

As a big fan of Smash Mario I'm crying right now.

F.L.U.D.D. might be useful? Is this really happening?

If this ends up being banned in tournaments then I'll pay no attention to the Smash 4 competitive scene. I better see some characters being able to use improved versions of their most useless moves.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I think that this would give SSB4 its own flavor from Brawl and Melee and be VERY fun to watch competitively.

It'd make ditto matches a lot more interesting to watch, that's for sure.

 

[-Kagato-]

Custom moves shouldn't be banned unless they take a long time to set up between matches. A fast, easy way (like choosing assists in ultimate marvel, or even having them saved via amiibos somehow) would be ideal. That way you select them quickly or even with the touch of a toy.

The moves themselves can be analyzed later and banned accordingly if they present something that is totally overpowered.

Long story short, they have a 50/50 chance of being legal. I want them to be because Bowser has fireballs as a possibility, giving him a projectile. That's delicious.

 

[lightdasher]

I suppose this goes here as well, do you think (some) custom equipment will be banned?

http://www.smashbros.com/en-uk/howto/entry2.html

 

[GamerGuy09]

I suppose this goes here as well, do you think (some) custom equipment will be banned?

http://www.smashbros.com/en-uk/howto/entry2.html

There is no doubt that custom equipment will be banned. However custom movesets is a possibility.

 

[lightdasher]

There is no doubt that custom equipment will be banned. However custom movesets is a possibility.

tfw there's a thing you can equip which reduces landing lag and changes air dodge to melees.