Do we really need nerfs in the current metagame?

[C0rvus]

We don't ever NEED nerfs. Brawl probably would have benefited from nerfs for sure, but the game had a decent lifespan and pretty large scene, despite it being a very anti-competitive game from the start. Melee nerfs happened in the form of the PAL version. You know, the one where Marth can't get spikes and most of the top tiers are slightly worse. These nerfs just make the game less interesting or exciting for many players and viewers. If PAL Melee had buffed low tiers more considerably, it may be known as the best version of the game, but it didn't. In this case, nerfs were a detriment to the game.

I've seen a few games that simply try to achieve balance by nerfing all of the strong weapons/characters until everything is mediocre. Nobody wants that. As hard as it may be for some to admit, Smash 4 doesn't need nerfs. It would not benefit from Sheik being torn apart, and the people who have put so much work into her would have that time and wasted. She isn't half as dominant as Meta Knight was. This game may not be as balanced as we once thought, but nerfs would only serve to make the game slowly more and more homogeneous in a few ways.

Anyway, nerfs are almost never necessary, but buffs for low tiers would be magnificent.

 

[S_B]

I've seen a few games that simply try to achieve balance by nerfing all of the strong weapons/characters until everything is mediocre

Mediocre compared to what, though?

Most of the cast is pretty damn "mediocre" right now because few of them are national tournament threats of any kind. Nerfing dominant characters doesn't make them mediocre, it just brings them in line with the intended power of the rest of the cast. We can't make everyone as strong as Shiek without making this into Brawl Minus...

Though there is ONE thing to say for buffing lower tiers: it DOES tend to make people go back and give a character another try once they've received some buffs (though someone could easily argue that, once a character is nerfed, players will go hunting for a new main since they're no longer FOTM...).

 

[Iceweasel]

There are a few characters who need nerfs. Sheik, as mentioned before, has disgusting frame data in addition to several great tools. Her one real weakness, low kill power, isn't an issue when she's so hard to punish and has such great combo ability. Most of her moves need about 3-7 total extra frames of startup and endlag, just because you can't reasonably expect to buff almost every character but Sheik.

Luma gives Rosalina a free out on too many attacks. Luma can hit you while Rosa can't, including when she's grabbed, in hitstun, or HAS A BROKEN SHIELD. Not to mention how easymode her walls are with Luma, how many hits it can take, and how short a timeframe you have for Luma to respawn, while Rosalina just plays keepaway for twelve seconds before the nightmare begins anew. Rosa either needs to share her stun status with Luma or Luma needs a severe reduction in hit points and a large increase in time before respawn.

Ryu has similar issues to Sheik. His frame data on the vast majority of his attacks is just too good. Not only that, but his smashes are incredibly strong WHILE he has a great combo ability, has a lot of shield damage moves (that would be very good even if they didn't break shields almost as well as Marth and Lucina' s neutral Bs), he's very heavy, has an amazing horizontal recovery and decent vertical, and don't even get me started on how LOLBROKEN those specials are, shoutout to Focus Attack in particular.

Aside from these three characters, most of the rest of the cast is relatively balanced. Mid-tiers can compete with most of the rest of the cast. The low-tiers need buffing, and some of the mids could use a few buffs, but most of the rest of the cast is relatively balanced.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The fact that 90% of all games of SSB4 are not being played by competitive players but casual players, many of whom will never even realize that competitive SSB exists?

Nintendo is balancing for them, too, and to bring the rest of the cast up to Shiek's competitive level, they'd probably become highly overpowered in the process.

For example, if SSB4's Bowser got Project M's Bowser's treatment? Yeah, he'd be unstoppable in casual matches...



Call it whatever you want. I think adding just a bit of landing lag would be a good start so Shiek can't "tinder combo" half the cast across the stage.

The trick is to buff/nerf in areas where competitive players will notice the difference but casual players won't.

Followups off of grabs is a good place to start because very few casual players use grab at all, let alone realize they can get followups after a grab.

every character would be unstoppable and they casuals would find a way around a character's brokeness if their character is broken too (at least i think).
also, nerfing sheik's 14% across the stage combo just makes her even more boring. how about getting rid of needles and nerfing Fair's startup and ending lag, but turning it into melee Fair? sounds better for me.
EDIT: i also saw this and almost fell over

Ryu has similar issues to Sheik. His frame data on the vast majority of his attacks is just too good. Not only that, but his smashes are incredibly strong WHILE he has a great combo ability, has a lot of shield damage moves (that would be very good even if they didn't break shields almost as well as Marth and Lucina' s neutral Bs), he's very heavy, has an amazing horizontal recovery and decent vertical, and don't even get me started on how LOLBROKEN those specials are, shoutout to Focus Attack in particular.

you're complaining about a character you only known for a couple of weeks. you should feel ashamed.

 

[S_B]

every character would be unstoppable and they casuals would find a way around a character's brokeness if their character is broken too (at least i think).

First of all, no, they wouldn't: Project M's Bowser is loaded with super armor, and that's the kind of thing that causal players are going to have a hard time getting around.

Second, most casuals probably think that Bowser >>>>>> Shiek because he kills so much earlier. The definition of a casual is someone who doesn't know how to get the most out of a character. Casuals won't know about Sheik's F-air escort. They won't know about throw followups. They're only going to know how hard Bowser hits vs how hard Shiek hits.

Most casuals I know barely even know how to shield. These people would have no idea how to handle SA...

also, nerfing sheik's 14% across the stage combo just makes her even more boring. how about getting rid of needles and nerfing Fair's startup and ending lag, but turning it into melee Fair? sounds better for me.

I don't think Sakurai is going to "get rid of needles" outright, though limiting their range a bit might be a good change so they can't hit across the entire stage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

First of all, no, they wouldn't: Project M's Bowser is loaded with super armor, and that's the kind of thing that causal players are going to have a hard time getting around.

Second, most casuals probably think that Bowser >>>>>> Shiek because he kills so much earlier. The definition of a casual is someone who doesn't know how to get the most out of a character. Casuals won't know about Sheik's F-air escort. They won't know about throw followups. They're only going to know how hard Bowser hits vs how hard Shiek hits.

Most casuals I know barely even know how to shield. These people would have no idea how to handle SA...



I don't think Sakurai is going to "get rid of needles" outright, though limiting their range a bit might be a good change so they can't hit across the entire stage.

I'm not saying to just tear the move out entirely, i'm just saying just limit their effectiveness and make her frame data worse overall by toning down key moves like Fair, Nair, Ftilt, and Bair, but then make her do more damage on every move and then make her Fair melee-like. That's a proper change imo instead just limiting needles and leaving sheik boring like she is now; top tier neutral with weak damage reward.
but honestly, i think having all characters able to generally do 40-50% off of one combo and stray hits dealing from 15 (15 being minimum) to 30% should be desirable, but that's a design change, not really a balance one (thought it DOES balance, since characters will share more things in common w/o compromising too much diversity).

 

[Browny]

Yes we need nerfs, because its easier to tone down single problematic moves (hoo hah) than it is to somehow give 52 characters new options to deal with these moves. Since programming takes time and therefore money, it is far more economically viable to nerf characters than to spend weeks of devs time trying to fix issues when they could spend a day instead.

Also, nerfs make top tier mains cry, so that's worth it enough for me.

 

[David Viran]

ZSS (Too less lag on the Flip Jump welp. Get out jail move, F4, near no end lag, alterable distance, can kill, can spike),

Please no. It is very punishable and nowhere near spammable. I fear for my life when I use it a lot offensively because of the lag the kick has and that it automatically does the footstool no matter whether you are intangible or not. You also can't do anything but move left and right before touching the ground unless you're super high up. Small nitpick but flip jump is frame 3 intangibility not frame 4.

 

[FrankTheStud]

corrections

Lol you must be kidding? Dedede has the best recovery of all the heavies, great spacing, a decent projectile, and better frame data on most of his moves. Doc's up+b sweetspot kills at the sacrifice of being a safe or reliable recovery, yet doesn't even kill early enough to be any good. Doc's trade off of power for recovery isn't worth it. Maybe Robin shouldn't play against Sheik because it's a bad matchup? If the only gripe you have with Robin is ONE character, then maybe we shouldn't change much?
Also, Duck Hunt can definitely kill... He has a spike and his smash attacks are all very good. Lucina is also better than Marth if you aren't good with tippers. Lucina has a consistent damage output that lies right between Marth's tipper and sour spot--That's how she's designed.

 

[Dsull]

Ryu is nowhere near the same level as Shiek in terms of power. Ryu always has a fear of accidental move input and his combos are no where near as solid/easy to pull off as Shiek. Only thing he has going over her that MIGHT make him more of an issue is his Focus Punch game.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Lol you must be kidding? Dedede has the best recovery of all the heavies, great spacing, a decent projectile, and better frame data on most of his moves. Doc's up+b sweetspot kills at the sacrifice of being a safe or reliable recovery, yet doesn't even kill early enough to be any good. Doc's trade off of power for recovery isn't worth it. Maybe Robin shouldn't play against Sheik because it's a bad matchup? If the only gripe you have with Robin is ONE character, then maybe we shouldn't change much?
Also, Duck Hunt can definitely kill... He has a spike and his smash attacks are all very good. Lucina is also better than Marth if you aren't good with tippers. Lucina has a consistent damage output that lies right between Marth's tipper and sour spot--That's how she's designed.

Dedede has no defense when somebody gets inside. Bowser has Up-b, DK has jabs and agility to runaway, Ganon also suffers from this, but then has harder hitting moves pound for pound. Also, dedede's MU spread compared to the rest are abysmal right now and his projectiles priority sucks.
Doc overall is stronger than mario and heck, his recovery isn't good, but it's not terrible either. He can at least use tornado to recover vertically and his up-b has a hitbox similar to mario when rising up.
Robin vs sheik is unwinnable, which means invalidation.
Duck hunt's kill moves lack setups and are pretty laggy, not to mention they don't link together good.
Lucina is good when you suck at spacing your attacks well. Marth's tippers promote shield safety and his jab buffs helps him out much better than Lucina. Also Roy exists so....

 

[FrankTheStud]

Dedede has no defense when somebody gets inside. Bowser has Up-b, DK has jabs and agility to runaway, Ganon also suffers from this, but then has harder hitting moves pound for pound. Also, dedede's MU spread compared to the rest are abysmal right now and his projectiles priority sucks.
Doc overall is stronger than mario and heck, his recovery isn't good, but it's not terrible either. He can at least use tornado to recover vertically and his up-b has a hitbox similar to mario when rising up.
Robin vs sheik is unwinnable, which means invalidation.
Duck hunt's kill moves lack setups and are pretty laggy, not to mention they don't link together good.
Lucina is good when you suck at spacing your attacks well. Marth's tippers promote shield safety and his jab buffs helps him out much better than Lucina. Also Roy exists so....

Dedede having no defense when someone gets inside...Sounds like every heavy. Also his downsmash is very good alongside decent mobility and a huge hammer for spacing. DKs jabs wont get pressure off, his up-b on the ground will. His projectile priority is fine for the stupid damage they do and the combo startups then inhibit. Doc's recovery is, indeed, terrible. Down-b used consecutively with a double jump to gain momntum is his best shot, and it leave him helpless for too long afterwards due to endlag, making him stupidly easy to gimp. Doc's hitboxes are nothing like Mario's...If you miss the up-b sweetspot, they can punish you incredibly hard even after sourspot. That's a huge risk for a move that already has a shoddy-at-best killrate. I've found some ways to combo into it, but even at that it requires quite a bit of risk due to Doc's horrific recovery... Down B will get you almost nowhere without scaling it off your double jump or even a wall jump.
"Unwinnable" is quite a big statement, so we'll just agree to disagree.
I agree that Duck Hunt's downsmash doesn't link well, but the lag makes him balanced. A campy character that thrives off ranged combat should find it more difficult when close quarters are in order. The range and damage scaling also goes up the longer you charge your attack, which actually allows quite a bit of forgiveness on the move, since no other smash moves in the game come to mind that increase range upon chargeup.
Let's not drag Roy into this... Roy is one of the most braindead characters in the game. Lucina is a general good fighter--Marth both promotes and benefits more spacious and defensive play. That's just their kit.

 

[TriTails]

alongside decent mobility

D3.

Decent mobility.

Error 404. Fat penguin's data corrupted.

 

[FrankTheStud]

D3.

Decent mobility.

Error 404. Fat penguin's data corrupted.

Lmao faster than Doc.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Dedede having no defense when someone gets inside...Sounds like every heavy. Also his downsmash is very good alongside decent mobility and a huge hammer for spacing. DKs jabs wont get pressure off, his up-b on the ground will. His projectile priority is fine for the stupid damage they do and the combo startups then inhibit. Doc's recovery is, indeed, terrible. Down-b used consecutively with a double jump to gain momntum is his best shot, and it leave him helpless for too long afterwards due to endlag, making him stupidly easy to gimp. Doc's hitboxes are nothing like Mario's...If you miss the up-b sweetspot, they can punish you incredibly hard even after sourspot. That's a huge risk for a move that already has a shoddy-at-best killrate. I've found some ways to combo into it, but even at that it requires quite a bit of risk due to Doc's horrific recovery... Down B will get you almost nowhere without scaling it off your double jump or even a wall jump.
"Unwinnable" is quite a big statement, so we'll just agree to disagree.
I agree that Duck Hunt's downsmash doesn't link well, but the lag makes him balanced. A campy character that thrives off ranged combat should find it more difficult when close quarters are in order. The range and damage scaling also goes up the longer you charge your attack, which actually allows quite a bit of forgiveness on the move, since no other smash moves in the game come to mind that increase range upon chargeup.
Let's not drag Roy into this... Roy is one of the most braindead characters in the game. Lucina is a general good fighter--Marth both promotes and benefits more spacious and defensive play. That's just their kit.

Up-binging to get people off you as DK is bad since the risk and reward ain't worth it. Jab for DK is fast with some range which also makes it good for spacing. Key thing is a move has to be fast on startup for it to be a good defense tool.
Dedede's projectile doesn't consistently setup much and does some damage. DEFINITLY a projectile that needs a buff.
And doc's recovery is a flaw of his, but that's the critical flaw that would make him worthless. If anything, it's speed. But even then, he got some strong qualities like good frame data and kill power. And jab1 to up b is a thing with doc at higher percents.
Duck hunt should have at least a kill setup at 120%</= so he doesn't scramble for kills when sheik can deal damage better and has 50/50 kill setups.
And about Roy: the differences between a good solid Roy and a bad one is movement and whiff punishing. Roy has lower range than his bros, but moves better than all swordsmen. He has to provoke and play patient until he can successfully get in based on the mistake of the opponent.

 

[Iceweasel]

Up-binging to get people off you as DK is bad since the risk and reward ain't worth it. Jab for DK is fast with some range which also makes it good for spacing. Key thing is a move has to be fast on startup for it to be a good defense tool.
Dedede's projectile doesn't consistently setup much and does some damage. DEFINITLY a projectile that needs a buff.
And doc's recovery is a flaw of his, but that's the critical flaw that would make him worthless. If anything, it's speed. But even then, he got some strong qualities like good frame data and kill power. And jab1 to up b is a thing with doc at higher percents.
Duck hunt should have at least a kill setup at 120%</= so he doesn't scramble for kills when sheik can deal damage better and has 50/50 kill setups.
And about Roy: the differences between a good solid Roy and a bad one is movement and whiff punishing. Roy has lower range than his bros, but moves better than all swordsmen. He has to provoke and play patient until he can successfully get in based on the mistake of the opponent.

Wait, so you're saying Gordo needs a buff? Are you trolling? Gordo is a solid 12%!

D3 does not need buffs. He's strong, has great aerial movement, and has great range, with a weakness of having few fast options. He doesn't need nerfs, but he sure doesn't need any buffs.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wait, so you're saying Gordo needs a buff? Are you trolling? Gordo is a solid 12%!

D3 does not need buffs. He's strong, has great aerial movement, and has great range, with a weakness of having few fast options. He doesn't need nerfs, but he sure doesn't need any buffs.

Great aerial movement, while having the slowest air speed. Ok
And dedede's ranged attacks doesn't get him far against the likes of fox, ZSS, and sheik (needles).

 

[Girls are scary]

#GiveAjumpOutOfSlide

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu is nowhere near the same level as Shiek in terms of power. Ryu always has a fear of accidental move input and his combos are no where near as solid/easy to pull off as Shiek. Only thing he has going over her that MIGHT make him more of an issue is his Focus Punch game.

lolwut

It's called training mode.

Accidental move inputs lmao. Cant believe you think this is a valid strike against a char's level of power.

But please keep thinking Ryu has to fear doing the wrong thing and that he isn't good.

So he can dominate after Sheik gets wrecked eventually lol.

 

[outfoxd]

Dedede having no defense when someone gets inside...Sounds like every heavy. Also his downsmash is very good alongside decent mobility and a huge hammer for spacing. DKs jabs wont get pressure off, his up-b on the ground will. His projectile priority is fine for the stupid damage they do and the combo startups then inhibit. Doc's recovery is, indeed, terrible. Down-b used consecutively with a double jump to gain momntum is his best shot, and it leave him helpless for too long afterwards due to endlag, making him stupidly easy to gimp. Doc's hitboxes are nothing like Mario's...If you miss the up-b sweetspot, they can punish you incredibly hard even after sourspot. That's a huge risk for a move that already has a shoddy-at-best killrate. I've found some ways to combo into it, but even at that it requires quite a bit of risk due to Doc's horrific recovery... Down B will get you almost nowhere without scaling it off your double jump or even a wall jump.
"Unwinnable" is quite a big statement, so we'll just agree to disagree.
I agree that Duck Hunt's downsmash doesn't link well, but the lag makes him balanced. A campy character that thrives off ranged combat should find it more difficult when close quarters are in order. The range and damage scaling also goes up the longer you charge your attack, which actually allows quite a bit of forgiveness on the move, since no other smash moves in the game come to mind that increase range upon chargeup.
Let's not drag Roy into this... Roy is one of the most braindead characters in the game. Lucina is a general good fighter--Marth both promotes and benefits more spacious and defensive play. That's just their kit.

In a game where so many people have early killing options or setups for normal kills, not having either is debilitating for Duck Hunt. Im not onboard for saying he should entirely have trouble up close. Villager has nair. Megamam has a good throw and lemons. Rob has a combo throw and some good smashes
Its even weirder for us because of the misconception that we're a fully campy character. We're supposed to work at mid range where we can confirm our delayed projectiles for damage.

And having unreliable smashes is painful. When i can't count on punishing a Jigglypuff missing a rest that's a problem.

 

[FrankTheStud]

In a game where so many people have early killing options or setups for normal kills, not having either is debilitating for Duck Hunt. Im not onboard for saying he should entirely have trouble up close. Villager has nair. Megamam has a good throw and lemons. Rob has a combo throw and some good smashes
Its even weirder for us because of the misconception that we're a fully campy character. We're supposed to work at mid range where we can confirm our delayed projectiles for damage.

And having unreliable smashes is painful. When i can't count on punishing a Jigglypuff missing a rest that's a problem.

The misconception about Duck Hunt being campy is because it's so natural in your kit. Your smashes are all ranged, are your specials (aside from up+b). Duck Hunt plays "keep away" with whoever he fights against, which comes off as campy. I apologize if it's incorrect, and I will change my way of thinking if it is, because I want to be a better player and don't want to offend.

I've also never seen a Duck Hunt miss a sleeping Jigglypuff...Are the hitboxes incorrect or perhaps the placement is difficult and it's more of a "skill" thing?

 

[outfoxd]

The misconception about Duck Hunt being campy is because it's so natural in your kit. Your smashes are all ranged, are your specials (aside from up+b). Duck Hunt plays "keep away" with whoever he fights against, which comes off as campy. I apologize if it's incorrect, and I will change my way of thinking if it is, because I want to be a better player and don't want to offend.

I've also never seen a Duck Hunt miss a sleeping Jigglypuff...Are the hitboxes incorrect or perhaps the placement is difficult and it's more of a "skill" thing?

I apologize if i came off as aggressive, was not my intent. You're fine. Duck hunt is kind of built to outcamp close quarters fighters and play more aggressive on zonier ones but his kit is lacking in power, kill confirms, or options off his admittedly great grab.

The hitboxes, the way the smash is constructed, when you land one oftentimes the opponent will slide off the weak hits before the final, smashing hitbox lands, leaving you with minute damage and no smash. Its an extreme example, but at a tournament a couple nights ago i attended a fellow duck hunt had multiple opportunities to land smashes off whiffed rests and kept getting misses.

This may have been rectified with the new hitboxes but since thr first shot hasn't been adjusted i worry.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why is camping a term that's still being used when it means to stay in one spot when that's never the case in fighting games?

 

[Zeepington]

To whoever's saying we don't need nerfs...



...yeah no we do in some spots.
If you want a balanced game, you want to make sure that you don't have to check on the net how to beat the strongest character in the game. I literally have no ****ing clue on how to beat a good R&L.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hear this a lot, even from Project M players or Melee players who main top tiers and demand that they remain untouched and just buff the rest up.

This doesn't work, when people perform an arms race to make everyone super powerful, suddenly you just made the game full of homogeneous design. Sometimes you gotta swing the nerf bat.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Up-binging to get people off you as DK is bad since the risk and reward ain't worth it. Jab for DK is fast with some range which also makes it good for spacing. Key thing is a move has to be fast on startup for it to be a good defense tool.
Dedede's projectile doesn't consistently setup much and does some damage. DEFINITLY a projectile that needs a buff.
And doc's recovery is a flaw of his, but that's the critical flaw that would make him worthless. If anything, it's speed. But even then, he got some strong qualities like good frame data and kill power. And jab1 to up b is a thing with doc at higher percents.
Duck hunt should have at least a kill setup at 120%</= so he doesn't scramble for kills when sheik can deal damage better and has 50/50 kill setups.
And about Roy: the differences between a good solid Roy and a bad one is movement and whiff punishing. Roy has lower range than his bros, but moves better than all swordsmen. He has to provoke and play patient until he can successfully get in based on the mistake of the opponent.

What are you talking about? DK's ground up b is one of his only ways to get people off, as it has super armor and not a defenseless startup like down + b. D3's jab locks together and can even kill at upper percents, which DK's doesn't do. All projectiles are highly situational, D3's doesn't need guaranteed setups, and it can literally camp ledge, which no one else's can do (?) so it def doesn't need a buff. Everything else you stated is somewhat irrelevant as you seem to only be talking for the sake of argument. I hope Duckhunts hitboxes are a bit more consistent post-patch if what Outfoxd says is true.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I hear this a lot, even from Project M players or Melee players who main top tiers and demand that they remain untouched and just buff the rest up.

This doesn't work, when people perform an arms race to make everyone super powerful, suddenly you just made the game full of homogeneous design. Sometimes you gotta swing the nerf bat.

Preach

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What are you talking about? DK's ground up b is one of his only ways to get people off, as it has super armor and not a defenseless startup like down + b. D3's jab locks together and can even kill at upper percents, which DK's doesn't do. All projectiles are highly situational, D3's doesn't need guaranteed setups, and it can literally camp ledge, which no one else's can do (?) so it def doesn't need a buff. Everything else you stated is somewhat irrelevant as you seem to only be talking for the sake of argument. I hope Duckhunts hitboxes are a bit more consistent post-patch if what Outfoxd says is true.

Up b is slow. Jab is fast. You don't get people off you with slow moves.
Camp ledge? What's that.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Up b is slow. Jab is fast. You don't get people off you with slow moves.
Camp ledge? What's that.

Up b has super armor which stops you from being combo food. Jab isn't always fast enough. D3's Gordo can attach to ledge, making it impossible for your opponent to approach or grab ledge without taking damage...Even Mario after he capes the stuck Gordo.

 

[guedes the brawler]

rosalina's defense is too strong and shiek's defensive offense is also too strong if we just buff people to be on their levels the game will be a mess.

Shiek is LEGITIMATELY a bad character in the same wya MK has: she has no weakness.

"OH BUT DIFFICULTY IN KILLING!!!!"

yeah... but smahs was meant to be played with tiems, many of which are very destructive and guess what? sheik's got the mobility to get them faster than 95% of the cast. This is different from, say, Melee Fox, whose problem was poor defenses.

Rosalina is just a case of bad foresight. She is actually fine, it's luma that is a bit too rewarding. Though gravitational pull needs to be changed somewhat.


other top tiers do need slight nerfs, but these tow need more; even if they aren't unbeatable.

 

[LightLV]

General character design basically dictates that as long as Sheik stays where she is, we will either see tremendous power creep to reach her level, or she will be broken until another close contender catches up.

^ pretty much.

If nobody gets anymore nerfs, then we're going to have to see the entire cast move towards shiek in order for the meta to go anywhere.

Otherwise, tops need to move down, middles need to get some quality of life improvements, and low-tiers need to be nigh-reworked in terms of frame data to become viable. The top tiers in smash are always that way because of saftey and options. This is why speedy characters are always the top-tier ones.

good characters can throw out moves and get away with it. Mid tiers need to make more reads on average. Bad characters require you to either suck at the game or just not understand why they're bad to even stand a chance.

Since i doubt Sakurai is ever going to do something like allow Ganon's side-B to kill at 65%, he's never going to be a good character. Unless Samus' charge shot starts killing at 70% and her projectiles start breaking shields when blocked, she's never going to be worth picking.

 

[Raijinken]

^ pretty much.

If nobody gets anymore nerfs, then we're going to have to see the entire cast move towards shiek in order for the meta to go anywhere.

Otherwise, tops need to move down, middles need to get some quality of life improvements, and low-tiers need to be nigh-reworked in terms of frame data to become viable. The top tiers in smash are always that way because of saftey and options. This is why speedy characters are always the top-tier ones.

good characters can throw out moves and get away with it. Mid tiers need to make more reads on average. Bad characters require you to either suck at the game or just not understand why they're bad to even stand a chance.

Since i doubt Sakurai is ever going to do something like allow Ganon's side-B to kill at 65%, he's never going to be a good character. Unless Samus' charge shot starts killing at 70% and her projectiles start breaking shields when blocked, she's never going to be worth picking.

Her projectiles also need some serious lag reduction to make perfect-shielding them not the easiest thing in the world. That or a rework to perfect shielding to make single-hit-projectile characters not garbage against it.

 

[LightLV]

The thing about characters like Samus is that while they don't NEED stuff like lag reduction or animation cancels to be viable, we all know Sakurai/Smash in general doesn't have the balls to provide the amount of benefit they need to make them viable tools.

If the move is laggy and easy to Pshield, it needs to have some serious properties to offset its bad qualities. Otherwise, players have no reason to respect the character. And as it stands now, her projectiles are laggy, slow, unusually low priority AND they suck damage/KB wise.

Zelda has the same problem, her aerials all suck and aren't nearly worth the risk since almost none of them autocancel. Din's Fire is the most telegraphed attack in the game and does below mediocre damage and knockback. Same with phantom knight. They just have silly design decisions behind them.

I think they should just buff the KB scaling on her projectiles and give ALL of them some serious shield damage modifiers. At least then samus could have something going for her. Even though that doesn't fix the issue of her probably being dead before she gets in a position to shoot any of them off.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Please buff Doc... Either a better recovery, or better frame data. (not asking for much, just a decent jab)

I think doc is a pretty good character as he is, the only reason I see he isn't a really good character is that some of his moves are too dang weak, his up air for example is weaker then luigi's . That is freaking dumb because he is slower then Luigi so he should be stronger to make up for it, and doc can't get nearly as many follow ups as Luigi yet he still has a weaker up air. His neutral air is too weak 5 on early hit and 8 on late hit while Luigi the freaking combo master is doing 11 on early hit and 5 on late hit. Docs tornado is way weaker then luigi's cyclone yet Luigi can cyclone out of a downthrow and doc can't, there is no reason doc should have that much end lag on his down air while characters like kirby have no endlag on their down airs whatsoever. I understand why doc kills later than Luigi with his up special because it has a larger hit box but as risky as the move is it should at least ko at 100% instead of 130%. Dr mario is a good character but he is not great so I entirely agree he needs a better recovery or better frame data as I said before his moves strength doesn't justify the amount of lag they have, he needs either stronger moves or less lag, I think the small buff on his up smash in 1.10 doesn't help balence out the problems other then the fact that his up smash is so weak and launches at such a bad angle for killing it is not even worth using, but it didn't even do much to help that. In general stronger characters have worse recoveries or characters that don't really have any other weakness, doc is neither yet he has a bad recovery. Project M got balance right, why can't Nintendo?

 

[FrankTheStud]

I think doc is a pretty good character as he is, the only reason I see he isn't a really good character is that some of his moves are too dang weak, his up air for example is weaker then luigi's . That is freaking dumb because he is slower then Luigi so he should be stronger to make up for it, and doc can't get nearly as many follow ups as Luigi yet he still has a weaker up air. His neutral air is too weak 5 on early hit and 8 on late hit while Luigi the freaking combo master is doing 11 on early hit and 5 on late hit. Docs tornado is way weaker then luigi's cyclone yet Luigi can cyclone out of a downthrow and doc can't, there is no reason doc should have that much end lag on his down air while characters like kirby have no endlag on their down airs whatsoever. I understand why doc kills later than Luigi with his up special because it has a larger hit box but as risky as the move is it should at least ko at 100% instead of 130%. Dr mario is a good character but he is not great so I entirely agree he needs a better recovery or better frame data as I said before his moves strength doesn't justify the amount of lag they have, he needs either stronger moves or less lag, I think the small buff on his up smash in 1.10 doesn't help balence out the problems other then the fact that his up smash is so weak and launches at such a bad angle for killing it is not even worth using, but it didn't even do much to help that. In general stronger characters have worse recoveries or characters that don't really have any other weakness, doc is neither yet he has a bad recovery. Project M got balance right, why can't Nintendo?

I have faith that Nintendo will eventually get it right... Remember, they have a much larger cast to deal with than Project M. I agree completely though about Doc vs Luigi... Luigi is a powerhouse compared to Doc... Semi-spike bair, spike on dair, sweetspot nair can kill off top at around 120% after downthrow... Doc's downthrow launches people too far for him to effectively combo out of, and he lacks a spike, which is rare, especially for a heavier, slower character. He's more powerful than Mario, but not as powerful as Luigi... He's a strange guy, that's for sure!

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I hope your right about Nintendo getting balence right, comparing doc to Luigi is a bit like comparing Roy to Marth on melee, as they are both very similar characters but one is among the best and the other is not despite being similar. All because of bad balance choices, that just goes to show how literally any character on smash could have been unreasonably better then others. That leaves something to be wondered, what was Nintendo thinking when they made some of the moves on smash 4, so obviously during testing they saw some characters needed the get bit by the nerf hammer, but why would they think characters like samus and zelda are on par with the rest of the cast(in my imagination samus was a perfect transition of melee samus and zelda could dthrow to any aeiral so they got got nerfed and are where they are now, kind of like characters who were good in the final release of smash games Luigi, falco, meta knight, and Marth, luigi wasn't high tier in brawl but like the others he was badly nerfed from brawl.) some obvious bad balence choices were made in smash 4 despite its release being delayed from summer 2014 to winter 2014, marth's down air for example, in melee it had a huge spike hitbox but to kind of balence it out it had tons of end lag, now in smash 4 Marths down air has an extremely small spike hitbox and still has tons of end lag. Or Falcos lasers, in brawl I agree they were dumb they needed to be nerfed, but in smash 4 his lasers have so much end lag they are near useless. Now to talk about something smash 4 did right, the game is well balanced aside from a few characters. It is impressive how a game with over 50 characters is balanced so well, I didn't expect perfect balance but I am annoyed because the only unbalanced things in smash 4 that I find highly noticable are the stupid things like Luigi being faster then doc and being able to combo better but still having stronger attacks. Think of how dumb it would be to have a shooter and have a gun like a shotgun that fires at a modest pace have the same damage per attack as a rapid fire gun like an Uzi, then the devolopers just wasted time making a gun nobody will ever use because it is freaking garbage.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

rosalina's defense is too strong and shiek's defensive offense is also too strong if we just buff people to be on their levels the game will be a mess.

Shiek is LEGITIMATELY a bad character in the same wya MK has: she has no weakness.

"OH BUT DIFFICULTY IN KILLING!!!!"

yeah... but smahs was meant to be played with tiems, many of which are very destructive and guess what? sheik's got the mobility to get them faster than 95% of the cast. This is different from, say, Melee Fox, whose problem was poor defenses.

Rosalina is just a case of bad foresight. She is actually fine, it's luma that is a bit too rewarding. Though gravitational pull needs to be changed somewhat.


other top tiers do need slight nerfs, but these tow need more; even if they aren't unbeatable.

I couldn't say Melee Fox's defense was bad as much as if he got caught out he could get ****ed up pretty hard. His defense is great with a frame 1 jump cancelable move that covers his whole body and the speed to move away.

Sheik unable to kill is a just as noticeable as Fox when he gets caught out.

They both have weaknesses, but too many upsides. They share that same problem design.

Sheik is and most likely is going to be nerfed more, Fox in Melee really only will be in Project M.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Sheik isn't really too strong per se, but her basically not having any bad match ups is lame and should change.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sheik isn't really too strong per se, but her basically not having any bad match ups is lame and should change.

If she's able to have at least a slight disadvantage against one character, I'll be happy because that's all that takes. Nothing huge or ridiculous.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sheik isn't really too strong per se, but her basically not having any bad match ups is lame and should change.

I'm...not sold on this yet.

I can see it being the case but I think there is a strong case of her losing to someone else. She did lose to Diddy before he got nerfed, though admittingly because he himself was too strong.

She could use another knock of the nerf bat while Nintendo buffing all character people preserve as weak.

If they keep nerfing her kill power, someone will be able to deal with her more effectively eventually along with tweaking her frame data.