Do we really need nerfs in the current metagame?

[New_Dumal]

Now that we know a new patch is coming this friday, balance questions are normal,what scares some people and bring hope for others. Nerfs and buffs are probably gonna happen, but we will have more buffs or more nerfs ?
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In my point of view, we don't need any nerfs at this moment.
<>Why?
Yes, Sheik is strong.
Sheik, Rosaluma, Luigi, Pikachu, ZSS, Diddy ... maybe MK... are looking scary.
The easier way to balance the game is nerfing Vanish, nerfing Luigi options after DThrow, nerfing some Rosaluma knockback's or ending lag, nerfing what looks to be bad-designed.

My problem with that ( plus the Sheik bias for maining her), is that we are walking to a metagame where every single character have too many flaws. The game would still fun if every single character got the problems Zelda have to approach or space herself ?I'm not creating this topic to insult any character, but is obvious now that some characters have too few (sometimes zero) options to each situation.
While I would not like to have any character with the potential Fox have in Melee, I think what Sheik (who is the best character now by most people) is fine how she is. Others characters have a nice number of options too.

Sheik and Rosaluma great players, in the current METAGAME, were defeated by unexpected characters.
Dabuz Rosaluma's defeated by Wario, Mr.R's Sheik by MK ...
So they're not that absolute top tiers who denies victory because "they're too much OP to be destroyed."
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Now look at this faces: .
This chars (and many others) deserves buffs, because they lack options to fight not only against Sheik, but against any character that can make pressure safely, have good setups, or being honest: The viable characters.
We need more viable characters.

Buff a character that is not winning is never a problem and almost never enrages the community.
The unique characters that, in my opinion, would be dangerous to give the minimum buffs now are:
.
And should not receive serious buffs.

Everyone else should be in the buff train.
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This is my opinion and I'm curious to listen if you agree (we are in a current metagame where nerfs are not needed or at least not the primary thing to do) or you really want that Sheik, Rosaluma, Luigi, or Greninja nerf to happen.

[Any problems with this topic please warn me, message, any needed mean.]

 

[Raijinken]

General character design basically dictates that as long as Sheik stays where she is, we will either see tremendous power creep to reach her level, or she will be broken until another close contender catches up.

She's fast, she has projectiles, she has recovery, and she has 50/50 setups into her few kill moves. No shortage of kill moves matters when you can nearly guarantee them.

The characters you listed as weak (I generally agree) don't have those options on any level. Marth doesn't have a so-called kill-confirm without customs (and hardly with them either), he relies very heavily on the opponent walking into a tipper, and his player's ability to set up situations where the enemy doesn't have many other options. But he lacks the tools to do either of those effectively. He can't force an approach, he can't approach on his own, his combos are basically nonexistant, and Shield Breaker loses to a Perfect Shield. Obviously (as you yourself agree) he and a lot of the others on that end of the list need some buffs.

But there are issues with trying to balance to the top level. Aside from creating power creep (and being a less-stable area to balance to), the properties that essentially define all top-tier characters (a combination of speed and/or good hit properties including frame data, hitbox size, and damage/knockback) haven't been factored into lower-tier characters. Summarily, all of the low-tiers (including Gunner and Swordfighter whom you omitted) can't really force you into their preferred play pattern, while most or all top-tiers can.

I pretty much agree with your list of characters who don't need buffs. I'd go so far as to say that all of the list up to Yoshi shouldn't get ANY buffs. But unless we want to see characters like Ganondorf and Link lose their design integrity (going from slower hard-hitters to either faster characters, or pre-1.08 Diddy-esque lightning bruisers), we're going to have to take the top level down a notch.

 

[shane3x]

defeated by unexpected characters.
Dabuz Rosaluma's defeated by Wario

I hope you mean in the context of Dabuz playing poorly, and not because of the matchup itself otherwise it makes it a lot harder to take anything in the OP seriously.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

I believe the focus should be on buffs now, but Sheik deserves a nerf... Maybe on laggier moves rather than on strength. Maybe even make she lighter. That's the only thing I really want. Aaaand, despite playing him as a Secondary, Ness Back-throw deserves a nerf too (it was always powerful, I know. Just make it kill later, for example at 120%).
It also would be very great if everybody had as many options as Luigi after the D-Throw.
Edit: Another nerf I would like to see it's with Counters. Kirby's Up-Smash was countered by Ike and killed me at 4x% and leaving me with 7x%. But, he had 137%.

 

[HeavyLobster]

The issue with the characters people want nerfs for is not that they're strictly OP, but that they have certain polarizing aspects that certain weaker characters can't be balanced around. There's not much you can reasonably give a character like Ganondorf that'll get through Sheik or Rosa as they currently stand that won't cause balance problems elsewhere. They don't need big nerfs necessarily, but minor nerfs to needles and/or Fair are warranted, and there are a couple of minor nerfs that can be applied to other characters as well. Some other characters might warrant a reworking of their strengths and weaknesses instead of straight buffs or nerfs.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yeah, no. Your character bias is blinding you to the polarizing effect of moves like needles and forward air. Like HeavyLobster is saying, if you tried to buff some of these characters to a level where they could reasonably contend with that kind of pressure, they'd be absolutely broken versus the rest of the cast. It's just a backwards approach to solving the problems with a couple of moves that are too good. Honestly, even just needles being fixed would solve a lot of problems immediately.

Sheik isn't Metaknight, but she still has a problematic design.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

alot of characters need fixing. sheik's needles need to go, but give her 3x the damage on her moves and knockback on her kill moves so she can now punish you greatly for mistakes. and make all her moves a bit laggier, but not too laggy.
all of the top tier characters need their bouncing fish, quick attack, flip jump type moves nerfed because no one should get out of disadvantage so easily.
low tier characters need faster, longer ranged tilts or pokes to actually make you respect their space and they need actually kill setups to make you pay.
mid tiers are weird. they all need big big buffs to damage and knockback and speed to their kill moves.

honestly, i have more beef to how the game is super forgiving and just uninteractive and sheik is the poster girl for this gameplay. she doesn't get touched, but she does super low damage for her confirms. not to mention all the good recoveries there are due to ledge mechanics and hard to intercept recoveries. it's just wayy too forgiving.

 

[David Viran]

I don't recall seeing a balance patch being confirmed. I know that there has been every content update but you said it like it's confirmed. Is it?

 

[ewItsBoo]

In a perfect world, in another life, just maybe, a 100% balanced Smash game...

 

[Gibbs]

I think buffing is a much harder to do as a game designer than nerfing. It would be super super easy for to inadvertently buff a character to the stratosphere. I was recently having a conversation with a very good Marth main in my region about ways Marth could feasibly be buffed in ways that wouldn't destroy the meta game. We were pretty much in agreement that if a patch did something that so many people have been asking for, give Marth back his Brawl forward air, he would shoot from mid tier straight to broken.

 

[V4n1sh]

With the whole upcoming patch thing,I think we need the metagame to grow a little bit.In early Melee,people complained about LINK'S downthrow to upb combo.LINK,who is now mid tier,people complained about.Eventually people got used to it.We also need to do this with Smash 4.Some people just need to spend time learning the matchup,options,etc. too.False on twitter said that people should be learning matchups instead of begging for nerfs,he used Luigi as a example,such as his low traction and people not knowing anti-grab.Japan also thinks Luigi isn't good because of such,both NAKAT and False saying these.Some characters could be amazing,but just don't have anyone proving it.We might need to get creative with both buffs and nerfs too.For instance,Sonic is a hit and run and generally not exactly the most entertaining to watch due to his camping options with bad boxing options.What if we nerfed his camping options and buffed his boxing options?However,some smaller nerfs are needed.If we didn't get them,we might end up getting Brawl MK and IC for instance.Sheik would need nerfs to general things such as aerial lag and needles,nerfs on both of these would solve a lot of problems that people have with Sheik.RosaLuma would need her Luma toned down.(Honestly the Luma is what makes RosaLuma the thing everyone complains on).

TL:DR We do need the nerfs and buffs we are getting but we also heavily need people to learn matchups and let the meta evolve,and test out the mostly unexplored characters.

 

[Dsull]

Shiek is the only character i view as needing a serious nerf. Not because shes stupid OP, but because she takes almost no effort to set up her combos/kills regardless of the %.
Almost every character that has a combo more than 3 attacks cannot do them beyond a certain %. Most characters cant combo out of a throw for squat, and others can only do it to a lower % until they begin to be thrown too far. Shiek can throw you at pretty much ANY % and still get her combo off. Ive been hit by it ~100% before i can airdodge.

Its not her damage/kill potential that makes her broken. Its her security in doing so. Nobody can match that level of security and every top end tournament video i watch with shiek makes me feel like the opposing player is literally doing nothing but trying to bait an attack because shes way too fast/safe to try anything else. Even campy gameplay against her is difficult because shes so dang fast. And dont even get me started on her lack of landing lag (free fall into shield/roll so fast you dont even see her "hit" the ground...really?)

Anyway /rant over.

The other characters you list i see as perfectly fine right now. Rosalina/ZSS still gives me issues from time to time but i can deal with them since its usually my own mistake when i lose. Also i dont think ive seen a single Metaknight be even remotely good lol hes so easy to suicide with.

Im not sure how you would buff many of those characters without making them feel a little out of their "zone" for lack of better terms, but i could see the heavies getting heavy-specific mechanics. I mean, why is Bowser the only one with the "Tough Guy" mechanic or whatever it was called? DK/Dedede are just as big, and Ganon might as well be as big since hes so slow/solid muscle.
And before someone says something no i dont want the heavies to get super-armor on a majority of attacks. Super-armor should be restricted to moves like charged DK punch or Ganon punch...things that are impossible to spam. Still think LMac shouldnt have the armor he has, even in his current state *ducks for cover from the rage for that comment)

 

[New_Dumal]

I agree about Needles being stupid. I don't mind if they nerf them,because they just make no sense to begin with.
Why a character that have the best framedata and possibly best combo potential should be given the best (or at least one of the best) projectiles in the game ?This comes from a Sheik player.

About polarized MU's, it can't be helped.
We are in a game with 40+ characters, who dreams with the perfect balance where everyone is even or +1/-1 with all other characters is delusional. We need a game where Sheik is a problem to Ganondorf (buff him to be +2/-2, and not a completely stupid MU), but Ganon is a problem to Luigi ...
This kind of balance is the only reasonable way, cut MU's that are +3/-3 or unplayable.

 

[Illuminose]

A major part of the reason Sheik does so well imo is that she probably has the most developed metagame of any character in the game. Of course she's really good (and I think she's the best character in the game), but the amount of Sheik players and top players pushing the Sheik metagame has been advancing and optimizing her gameplay at a rapid pace. I don't really see that for most other characters, outside maybe Diddy. tbh idc if needles get nerfed, she probably deserves it w/e but people can push their characters more in the matchup. A lot of the good good characters in this game can go toe-to-toe with Sheik, like Pikachu, Yoshi, Mario, Rosalina, Sonic, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, and Meta Knight. Those matchups are all either even are 45:55, meaning you're going even or maybe a -1 at worst. Kirby, Lucario (actually goes 55:45 over Sheik), and the Pits also do fine. Abadango has shown that Wario can definitely do this matchup. Taking the stock and killing Sheik at 30 is no joke, that matchup is hella stressful and can prove really dangerous despite the fact that Sheik technically should 'win'.

I don't really care that much about nerfs anymore though. For a while I thought that Sheik could use more nerfs than that potentially and that other characters like Rosalina and Luigi needed nerfs, but I'm kinda at the point where I think we can deal with them and I just want to play the game. Buffs to low characters are what I think patches should be focusing on. What I mean by that are meaningful buffs, things that actually help matchups as opposed to general quality-of-life buffs.

 

[Staticky]

Diddy...bro did you just say Diddy needs a nerf...wow. Also MK is fine how he is. Luigi, Rosalina, and Sheik are the main characters that need nerfs because they are all great in neutral and Sheik has zero bad matchups. Luigi's d-throw should receive slight growth and some damage on his aerials should take nerfs. Besides that I think he's fine. Nintendo might go to far and nerf his fireballs tho. Rosalina shouldn't be so strong and/or have more lag on her smash attacks like dam they are powerful. Sheik should say mostly the same, just give her an exploitable weakness. F-tilt lag, F-air lag, and maybe nerf her back roll. I want Sheik nerfed I just dont know how lol.

 

[Xermo]

>we don't need any nerfs
> why
>x characters are looking pretty good / dominant
>here's some nerfs for these characters
It seems you lost track of the 'why' and then just started to drift into your other points.

Also it seems you're attributing Rosa or Sheik being beaten as the opposing character's victory, and not said users being outplayed by a better player. Totes calling bias if you think nerfs shouldn't be applied to a character with no weakness in the neutral. Character design doesn't allow for lower tiers to simply be buffed to compete with the top tiers.

 

[Balgorxz]

yes, to needles.
everything else is fine except for low tiers that need to be buffed.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Please buff Doc... Either a better recovery, or better frame data. (not asking for much, just a decent jab)

 

[Diddiot]

I would say that Luigi doesn't really merit a nerf since he hasn't really had any high placings at Apex, CEO, or Evo. Until he is shown as consistently being able to crush other characters he doesn't deserve a nerf.

 

[TriTails]

Scare some people.

Sure. I'm looking forward to the patch. And I main Luigi.

"But ne-"

COME AT ME NERFS. SUCKED OR NOT I'LL STILL MAIN THE GREEN PLUMBER.

But seriously though. Luigi is fine. If we are nerfing his D-throw, we better buff his mobility. I'm not speaking because bias, it's pretty much true. The guy can struggle to get in but get massive rewards by doing so. His placements aren't as high as other characters, and I'll put him in the 'Overrated characters' easily.

IMO, the only top tiers that need nerfs are Sheik (needles), ZSS (Too less lag on the Flip Jump welp. Get out jail move, F4, near no end lag, alterable distance, can kill, can spike), and maybe Rosalina (Some of Luma's attacks are just plain stupid in KB).

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I agree that for the most part we don't need many more nerfs. When we give good characters excessive nerfs instead of buffing bad characters, it just makes the game slower and more boring. Things like Needle Storm need a slight nerf, and Sheik's framedata definitely needs to be nerfed, but that's pretty much it.

(Also, I recently picked up Rosalina and have been doing really well with her, so I just don't want her to be nerfed.)

 

[DunnoBro]

Luigi is honestly the most annoying character in the game right now. He isn't necessarily overpowered but honestly I've fought custom villagers and custom kongs, I still can't stand fighting this character unless I have the lead and am aiming to time him out.

 

[Sodo]

I've never been a fan of nerfs. The first Diddy nerf was the only one I saw as necessary, the second one wasn't at all but at least it didn't kill the character. I think that every character has pros and cons, and there is never really going to be a realistic true balance as long as there are 55 characters who all have different attributes. The competitive metagame for all Smash titles has been about speed and mobility, so characters with those strengths are naturally going to be more viable. But I don't think nerfing these characters will help the others that much, it will only make the top tiers work harder against each other.

Buff the characters who have someone that does their own job better than them, and other than that don't touch the game.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Ganon is a problem to Luigi ...

Haha, I wish. Luigi beats Ganon pretty handily.

 

[pikazz]

I see nerfs as a bigger prio than buffs. they should first aim to nerf the moves that is really redicilous, like Sheiks Needles and some of her moves (like her 50/50 kill setup), diddys SideB movement+priority and a few more.

when we need some buffs to character that easy gets overrun by others or have really bad options in almost many situations.
I would love to see buffs on Jigglypuff, Jr and Mewtwo

 

[TriTails]

Haha, I wish. Luigi beats Ganon pretty handily.

He does, but Luigi gotta keep his respect high because Ganon's moves outrange his and 2 solid reads means basically a stock. We combo, gimp, and keep him out like mad, but he can just land 3 hits and that's about equal to a combo from us.

We need to be close all the time to deal meaningful damage, also. And losing footsies can mean a brutal punish. Also, F-SMASH BEATING SPOTDODGES. WHUT.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sheik doesn't deserve nerfs

As soon as Sheik gets nerfed people will just start complaining about the next best character and how they're "unfair" somehow.

We'll see people clambering to get ZSS's up-air nerfed because it's too good when you're above her or something.

As shown by top level, Sheik is manageable, better than any other character sure but that's also a result of her having lots of dedicated mains pushing the character. She has flaws/abusable traits, and may not have any matchups worse than even but that's usually the case for the best character.

 

[HeavyLobster]

A major part of the reason Sheik does so well imo is that she probably has the most developed metagame of any character in the game. Of course she's really good (and I think she's the best character in the game), but the amount of Sheik players and top players pushing the Sheik metagame has been advancing and optimizing her gameplay at a rapid pace. I don't really see that for most other characters, outside maybe Diddy. tbh idc if needles get nerfed, she probably deserves it w/e but people can push their characters more in the matchup. A lot of the good good characters in this game can go toe-to-toe with Sheik, like Pikachu, Yoshi, Mario, Rosalina, Sonic, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, and Meta Knight. Those matchups are all either even are 45:55, meaning you're going even or maybe a -1 at worst. Kirby, Lucario (actually goes 55:45 over Sheik), and the Pits also do fine. Abadango has shown that Wario can definitely do this matchup. Taking the stock and killing Sheik at 30 is no joke, that matchup is hella stressful and can prove really dangerous despite the fact that Sheik technically should 'win'.

I don't really care that much about nerfs anymore though. For a while I thought that Sheik could use more nerfs than that potentially and that other characters like Rosalina and Luigi needed nerfs, but I'm kinda at the point where I think we can deal with them and I just want to play the game. Buffs to low characters are what I think patches should be focusing on. What I mean by that are meaningful buffs, things that actually help matchups as opposed to general quality-of-life buffs.

The problem is that there's no way to reasonably balance Ganon or Bowser or DK around needles without just making them stupid and able to armor through everything. Ganon can't really receive much more than QOL buffs because almost all of his existing moves are already really good, he's just held back by bad mobility. Nobody's saying that Sheik is an auto-win in tourney or that needles shut down the top 10, but they are a significant problem for much of the rest of the cast.

 

[dav3yb]

With the whole upcoming patch thing,I think we need the metagame to grow a little bit.In early Melee,people complained about LINK'S downthrow to upb combo.LINK,who is now mid tier,people complained about.Eventually people got used to it.We also need to do this with Smash 4.Some people just need to spend time learning the matchup,options,etc. too.False on twitter said that people should be learning matchups instead of begging for nerfs,he used Luigi as a example,such as his low traction and people not knowing anti-grab.Japan also thinks Luigi isn't good because of such,both NAKAT and False saying these.Some characters could be amazing,but just don't have anyone proving it.We might need to get creative with both buffs and nerfs too.For instance,Sonic is a hit and run and generally not exactly the most entertaining to watch due to his camping options with bad boxing options.What if we nerfed his camping options and buffed his boxing options?However,some smaller nerfs are needed.If we didn't get them,we might end up getting Brawl MK and IC for instance.Sheik would need nerfs to general things such as aerial lag and needles,nerfs on both of these would solve a lot of problems that people have with Sheik.RosaLuma would need her Luma toned down.(Honestly the Luma is what makes RosaLuma the thing everyone complains on).

TL:DR We do need the nerfs and buffs we are getting but we also heavily need people to learn matchups and let the meta evolve,and test out the mostly unexplored characters.

The current issue with your link analogy back for melee, is that the meta development was a regional thing, something strong in one meta might not be nearly as effective in another due to size of the playerbase, and the knowledge within. Now, most people are able to operate under the same meta, because the Internet and online play unite meta's that might have otherwise developed independent of each other. This collective hivemind can discern and dissect information at insane rates compared to when melee was current, and the meta can mature much faster because of it. One issue with this is when people put too much stock in thw information and just run with it, but thats where the individuals come out and eventually show off something new, and then everyone learns from it again.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Absolutely not. I'm not a fan of having anymore balance patches although I would not disagree with some of the lower tier characters getting buffs (Just no one getting nerfs).

 

[erico9001]

I don't have major issues with any characters except Sheik. Nerf her, and I'm happy. I think after that, Sakurai can let it rest. All of these characters are viable but just take more time to perfect than our current 'top tiers.' That's been the general pattern in Smash games anyways, right?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Yes. Sheik. F-air is too much in general, and needles need a hitstun nerf. The Sheik/G&W team is currently OP as well, so they should make Vanish not fill the bucket completely. Other than her, just buffs. What we really don't need to do is reduce her KO power. They've tried this in previous patches, but it just doesn't work because it doesn't change what makes the character so good.

Also maybe they should make ZSS's down-b more punishable. ZSS herself isn't overpowered, but that move is just ridiculous.

And maybe maybe nerf Villager's customs just a tiny bit. Just enough that it raises the skill cap on his camping strategy, and somehow makes it more punishable.

As much as I want to say 'Captain Falcon,' because he's so damn annoying and has such a low skill cap, I don't think he's actually overpowered.

Still, I hope buffs are the focus. It's annoying when some random character gets nerfed pointlessly.

Edit: Also, Palutena's custom glitch where lightweight can last indefinitely. Hell, I'd be fine if her customs were nerfed in general, so long as they fixed the other aspects of her that make her so awkward to play. Her tilts should be dealing twice the damage they do.

Characters that really need or deserve serious buffs:


Characters that should get minor buffs:


(I dunno what needs to happen for Bowser, but DK should just get his f-air fixed. DHD should just get better (less terrible) smash attacks. I have no idea what to do with Mac; maybe nothing, or just something really minor. Shulk just needs a little less lag on a couple moves. Bowser Jr. needs a stronger (or just useable) neutral b, for one. G&W doesn't need that much; just make the hits of his u-air link at high percents.)

Edit: Forgot . Weird. I thought I had included her. .

 

[Sodo]

Characters that really need or deserve serious buffs:


Characters that should get minor buffs:


(I know people are riding the Game & Watch hype right now, but he was seriously nerfed from Brawl and he's very limited. Making the hits of u-air combo together as well as Fox's do would be huge. N-air and B-air should have less landing lag. The sweetspot of f-smash should be bigger. D-smash needs to be faster and have either less end-lag or more reward (damage or knockback.))

I agree with Samus, Zelda, WFT, and Dedede. I don't know about Doc or Robin.

I don't think Bowser, DK, DHD, Mac, or Shulk need any buffs. I'm also on the fence about G&W. I do agree Bowser Jr deserves a little something.

Someone major I think you missed is Jiggs, I think they should buff her to the degree they should with Bowser Jr, just mildly. I feel the same about Marth/Lucina/Greninja, even though they got buffs in the last patch.

 

[FrankTheStud]

I agree with Samus, Zelda, WFT, and Dedede. I don't know about Doc or Robin.

I don't think Bowser, DK, DHD, Mac, or Shulk need any buffs. I'm also on the fence about G&W. I do agree Bowser Jr deserves a little something.

Someone major I think you missed is Jiggs, I think they should buff her to the degree they should with Bowser Jr, just mildly. I feel the same about Marth/Lucina/Greninja, even though they got buffs in the last patch.

Marth is already wicked good, as is Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr has some disgusting KO potential, mobility, disjointed hitboxes galore, and a good recovery. Jiggys needs a buff of some sort, I agree with, but so does DK. DK has some of the worst matchups in the game without customs because of how terribly laggy he is and how impossible it is for him to land in comparison to other heavy characters. The fact that he has 4 (or 3 1/2, rather) spikes does not give him any saving grace, as his entire air kit consists of nothing but lag, and soft landing as DK is also incredibly unsafe. His recovery is absolutely abysmal so you don't want to be offstage more than you have to be, but due to his terrible lag he'll just get grabbed, grabbed, and grabbed again.
Doc in general needs a slight frame buff because he's literally just bad. He has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, except that he's fun to troll with and has decent KO potential. Mac and Shulk don't need buffs, players just need to learn how to play better and use Monado well for Shulk and how not to go full For Glory mode for Mac. If anything, Mac needs to be able to snap to ledge with his side b or up b (MAYBE). G&W is already pretty powerful. Lucina is pretty well balanced as well, and Greninja isn't a terrible character by any means. We don't want to buff character's who aren't bad at the risk of making them overpowered compared to others.

Edit: Wii Fit by any means does not need ANY buffs, nor does Dedede. Zelda needs a slight frame buff if anything, and Samus is actually not bad by any means...I would like to see her jabs combo together, though. Robin is debatable in my opinion but that's just because I can't play her well due to her slow movement speed. Her Levin Sword has wicked power, KOing Mario as early as 60% or so with a forward smash, which is ridiculous imo, but it makes sense because it balances out her lack of mobility. I also don't know how Duck Hunt should get buffed, because he has a good recovery, decent speed, great smash attacks, and great projectiles. I think he's fine as is, and people need to figure out how to keep him the zoning character that he is.

 

[Sodo]

Marth is already wicked good, as is Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr has some disgusting KO potential, mobility, disjointed hitboxes galore, and a good recovery. Jiggys needs a buff of some sort, I agree with, but so does DK. DK has some of the worst matchups in the game without customs because of how terribly laggy he is and how impossible it is for him to land in comparison to other heavy characters. The fact that he has 4 (or 3 1/2, rather) spikes does not give him any saving grace, as his entire air kit consists of nothing but lag, and soft landing as DK is also incredibly unsafe. His recovery is absolutely abysmal so you don't want to be offstage more than you have to be, but due to his terrible lag he'll just get grabbed, grabbed, and grabbed again.
Doc in general needs a slight frame buff because he's literally just bad. He has no redeeming qualities whatsoever, except that he's fun to troll with and has decent KO potential. Mac and Shulk don't need buffs, players just need to learn how to play better and use Monado well for Shulk and how not to go full For Glory mode for Mac. If anything, Mac needs to be able to snap to ledge with his side b or up b (MAYBE). G&W is already pretty powerful. Lucina is pretty well balanced as well, and Greninja isn't a terrible character by any means. We don't want to buff character's who aren't bad at the risk of making them overpowered compared to others.

Edit: Wii Fit by any means does not need ANY buffs, nor does Dedede. Zelda needs a slight frame buff if anything, and Samus is actually not bad by any means...I would like to see her jabs combo together, though. Robin is debatable in my opinion but that's just because I can't play her well due to her slow movement speed. Her Levin Sword has wicked power, KOing Mario as early as 60% or so with a forward smash, which is ridiculous imo, but it makes sense because it balances out her lack of mobility. I also don't know how Duck Hunt should get buffed, because he has a good recovery, decent speed, great smash attacks, and great projectiles. I think he's fine as is, and people need to figure out how to keep him the zoning character that he is.

I agree with a lot of your points, actually. I don't agree that Marth is "wicked" good, but he's probably better than I think he is at the moment. Bowser Jr is the same way, I never thought he was that good until after I posted here and started looking around, he's got a lot of untapped potential.

What do you think DK could use? He seems fine to me, I play him in my group of friends of course. He's combo food, yeah, but so are the other heavies.

Samus' jab was my main concern, it's terrible. Her overall kit is good, just in need of some stuff here and there. Same goes for WFT, except on a lot more of moves. I feel like I whiff so often with her, maybe it's just me. I always thought Doc and Robin were kind of similar in that you have to pick and choose your battles, you can't just throw out hitboxes and expect good things to happen like with some characters. In that respect I don't think either of them need anything, but I see a lot of Doc mains asking for what you're asking for so you may be right. What you think Doc needs, I think Zelda needs. She just seems like a bad character, but then again I play her sparingly so I'd have to defer to the Zelda mains to see what they think.

I've always found Lucina and Greninja underwhelming, but we'll just agree to disagree there.

 

[V4n1sh]

The current issue with your link analogy back for melee, is that the meta development was a regional thing, something strong in one meta might not be nearly as effective in another due to size of the playerbase, and the knowledge within. Now, most people are able to operate under the same meta, because the Internet and online play unite meta's that might have otherwise developed independent of each other. This collective hivemind can discern and dissect information at insane rates compared to when melee was current, and the meta can mature much faster because of it. One issue with this is when people put too much stock in thw information and just run with it, but thats where the individuals come out and eventually show off something new, and then everyone learns from it again.

True,my Melee Link analogy was mostly to put an example,however,in order to mature we need to go through the information such as matchups,however the community seems to be begging for nerfs instead.Reigonal metas also do exist to an extent (the reason why I say extent is because of Japanese players being able to pick up the Western meta) examples would be that Japan uses more conservative stage lists (using only Battlefield,Final Destination and Smashville) and that certain characters such as Villager,Wario,Pac-Man,Yoshi and Greninja are used much more,while Luigi and Ness are used less.They also have different tier list opinions because of it too.According to ZeRo,he said that Japan thinks Sonic is #2 (perhaps because of the stages available) and ZSS #3 (Choco,according to a tweet from ZeRo).NAKAT has also tweeted about them thinking Ness isn't as good because his recovery hinders him too much and Luigi not as good due to the same reason,low traction and anti-grab playstyles.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

corrections

Marth is already wicked good, as is Bowser Jr. Bowser Jr has some disgusting KO potential, mobility, disjointed hitboxes galore, and a good recovery. Jiggys needs a buff of some sort, I agree with, but so does DK. DK has some of the worst matchups in the game without customs because of how terribly laggy he is and how impossible it is for him to land in comparison to other heavy characters. The fact that he has 4 (or 3 1/2, rather) spikes does not give him any saving grace, as his entire air kit consists of nothing but lag Bair, Nair, Uair are some of the best in their category., and soft landing as DK is also incredibly unsafe. His recovery is absolutely abysmal His Up-b travels horizontally further than any other recovery in the game. so you don't want to be offstage more than you have to be, but due to his terrible lag he'll just get grabbed, grabbed, and grabbed again.
Doc in general needs a slight frame buff because he's literally just bad. He has no redeeming qualities whatsoever His Up-b kills and he's overall stronger than mario and does more damage than him hit for hit., except that he's fun to troll with and has decent KO potential. Mac and Shulk don't need buffs, players just need to learn how to play better and use Monado well for Shulk and how not to go full For Glory mode for Mac. If anything, Mac needs to be able to snap to ledge with his side b or up b (MAYBE). G&W is already pretty powerful. Lucina is pretty well balanced as well completely outclassed by marth in every direction, and Greninja isn't a terrible character by any means. We don't want to buff character's who aren't bad at the risk of making them overpowered compared to others.

Edit: Wii Fit by any means does not need ANY buffs, nor does Dedede dedede suffers worse than DK, bowser, Zard, or ganon. . Zelda needs a slight frame buff if anything, and Samus is actually not bad by any means ...I would like to see her jabs combo together, though. Robin is debatable in my opinion but that's just because I can't play her well due to her slow movement speed. Her Levin Sword has wicked power, KOing Mario as early as 60% or so with a forward smash, which is ridiculous imo, but it makes sense because it balances out her lack of mobility She/He needs serious help against sheik.. I also don't know how Duck Hunt should get buffed, because he has a good recovery, decent speed, great smash attacks He. can't. Kill., and great projectiles. I think he's fine as is, and people need to figure out how to keep him the zoning character that he is.

 

[S_B]

You have to remember that fighting games (SSB included) aren't about a character's tools in a vacuum but about how that character stands up to the rest of the cast.

You could try buffing the rest of the cast to be on par with competitive Shiek, but the problem would be that you'd destroy the casual game and that's still a VERY important aspect of the overall experience (most SSB matches played are casual, I'm sure).

And remember: the best buff to 90% of the cast IS to nerf Shiek (and other top characters).

The reason why many of these characters tend to be in such a bad spot is because no one wants to spend time labbing a character when there are other characters out there that flat our invalidate their existence. Why spend hundreds if not thousands of hours practicing with a certain character when all your opponent has to do is counterpick Shiek and you're basically hosed?

Nerfing top tiers = buffing lower tiers. It's not that the lower tiers are necessarily bad, it's that they're bad COMPARED to the higher tiers.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You have to remember that fighting games (SSB included) aren't about a character's tools in a vacuum but about how that character stands up to the rest of the cast.

You could try buffing the rest of the cast to be on par with competitive Shiek, but the problem would be that you'd destroy the casual game and that's still a VERY important aspect of the overall experience (most SSB matches played are casual, I'm sure).

And remember: the best buff to 90% of the cast IS to nerf Shiek (and other top characters).

The reason why many of these characters tend to be in such a bad spot is because no one wants to spend time labbing a character when there are other characters out there that flat our invalidate their existence. Why spend hundreds if not thousands of hours practicing with a certain character when all your opponent has to do is counterpick Shiek and you're basically hosed?

Nerfing top tiers = buffing lower tiers. It's not that the lower tiers are necessarily bad, it's that they're bad COMPARED to the higher tiers.

This makes no sense at all.
And we just need to tweak sheik, not straight out nerf her. she's really a boring character that plays footsies extremely well, but then does this slap on the wrist everytime.

 

[S_B]

This makes no sense at all.

The fact that 90% of all games of SSB4 are not being played by competitive players but casual players, many of whom will never even realize that competitive SSB exists?

Nintendo is balancing for them, too, and to bring the rest of the cast up to Shiek's competitive level, they'd probably become highly overpowered in the process.

For example, if SSB4's Bowser got Project M's Bowser's treatment? Yeah, he'd be unstoppable in casual matches...

And we just need to tweak sheik, not straight out nerf her. she's really a boring character that plays footsies extremely well, but then does this slap on the wrist everytime.

Call it whatever you want. I think adding just a bit of landing lag would be a good start so Shiek can't "tinder combo" half the cast across the stage.

The trick is to buff/nerf in areas where competitive players will notice the difference but casual players won't.

Followups off of grabs is a good place to start because very few casual players use grab at all, let alone realize they can get followups after a grab.