Hollywoodrok12
Smash Lord
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Now that Min Min is in in, we now have official confirmation that Spirits don't deconfirm. If anyone still has arguments from beyond the grave, here is where to post them.
After the events of the 11/1/18 Smash Ultimate Direct, there has been controversy as to whether or not the new Spirits deconfirm fighters.
The purpose of this thread is to hear both sides of the argument and gain a better idea if characters who have been confirmed to be Spirits, such as Shantae, Geno, and the like, are out of the running for DLC in Smash Bros Ultimate.
Also, regarding Vergeben and any other leaks in general, please try not to mention the specifics on the characters that got leaked (i.e. company, franchise, name, etc.) without using a spoiler.
Edit: I made my decision that Spirits DO deconfirm, and decided to make a thread about it, thinking that the 2 concepts were different enough to warrant having separate threads (I didn't realize that they, in fact, weren't). I decided to put why I think they DO deconfirm here:
Note: This is from before DLC beyond the fighter pass was confirmed, so it may be a little outdated.
Note 2: Since this was before Fighter Pass Vol. 2, this was also before the confirmation of an unknown ARMS fighter.
The purpose of this thread is to hear both sides of the argument and gain a better idea if characters who have been confirmed to be Spirits, such as Shantae, Geno, and the like, are out of the running for DLC in Smash Bros Ultimate.
Also, regarding Vergeben and any other leaks in general, please try not to mention the specifics on the characters that got leaked (i.e. company, franchise, name, etc.) without using a spoiler.
Edit: I made my decision that Spirits DO deconfirm, and decided to make a thread about it, thinking that the 2 concepts were different enough to warrant having separate threads (I didn't realize that they, in fact, weren't). I decided to put why I think they DO deconfirm here:
Note: This is from before DLC beyond the fighter pass was confirmed, so it may be a little outdated.
Note 2: Since this was before Fighter Pass Vol. 2, this was also before the confirmation of an unknown ARMS fighter.
Edit: So now we know that there are Fighters beyond the fighter pass. The question is, are spirits eligible for those slots?After the events of the Smash Bros direct on November 1st, 2018, there has been some debate on whether or not Spirits deconfirm. The general consensus of the community is that they don’t and that people should continue rooting for characters like Shantae, Bandana Dee, Geno and Rayman. However, I am going to go over why being a PNG file is just as bad as being an Assist Trophy in Smash Bros Ultimate.
Reggie’s words about Joker:
First of all, we know who the first character of the DLC fighter pass is: Joker from Persona 5. While he doesn’t provide any evidence that Spirits deconfirm in and of himself, what Reggie Fils-Amié, (Edit: Former) President of Nintendo of America, said about Joker that does. Reggie, shortly after Joker’s reveal, said the following:
“And so this [Joker] give you a flavor about how we’re approaching the DLC. So the DLC: there’s going to be five characters. Each character will come with a stage; it will come with a collection of music. These are going to be characters that are new to the series just like Joker from Persona 5: characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate.”
There are 3 parts of Reggies statement that are important here:
“And so this [Joker] give you a flavor about how we’re approaching the DLC”:
Reggie is saying that the other DLC fighters are going to be like Joker. But the question is: how are they going to be like him? The most likely answer is that they are Third Party characters. This is because of the precedent that was set by the DLC from Smash 4 with Ryu, Cloud, Corrin and Bayonetta. All but one of them are Third Party, so the first DLC pick for this game being Third Party coupled with the fact that Reggie said that the other fighters are going to be like him implies that the DLC for this game will follow the Third Party precedent set by the previous game and will be mostly, if not completely Third Party, which is bad news for characters like Bandana Dee, Elma and Octolings.
“characters that you would not anticipate to be in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate”:
Reggie said that the fighters would not be anticipated. To anticipate could mean “to expect” or “to look forward to” (as in “to want”), or even both. Assuming Reggie means that they would be unexpected newcomers, that instantly throws any characters previously perceived by the community as likely out of the running, such as Geno and Bandana Dee. Additionally, it follows the idea that I mentioned earlier that the DLC would follow the Third Party precedent of Smash 4.Conversely, there is the possibility that Reggie is saying that the characters are not characters who are wanted or highly requested. This means that all of the characters who were previously considered contenders to get in due to them being highly requested would not be making it into the roster.Edit:are in, so it means no characters previously considered likely.
“These are going to be characters that are new to the series”:
The other two statements don’t necessarily mean that Spirits deconfirm; only that fan-favorites and characters that were previously expected are now out of the running. However, this statement actually provides evidence that Spirits, in particular, deconfirm. Notice how he said “new to the series” and didn’t simply say “newcomers” or “new challengers”. He’s trying to say that there will be no fighters in the DLC pass that have appeared in a Smash Bros. game in any other way, shape or form. No Poké Balls, no Assist Trophies, and no Spirits.
Sakurai, Nintendo News, & the Announcer’s Descriptions of Spirits:
Sakurai:
“In this mysterious world, the unspeakable happens: many beloved characters lose their physical forms. All of them, except the fighters, are turned into Spirits, unable to return to the real world"
The Announcer:
“What’s this? Characters other than fighters? Must be SPIRITS!”
Nintendo Switch News (on World of Light):
“You can’t play as a spirit, but you can equip them…”
Firstly, let’s get to the easily understandable part. All 3 sources clarify that Spirits are separate from fighters. Simply put, spirits and fighters are two separate entities. Fighters are playable characters; Spirits are not.
Secondly, there’s a separation that goes deeper into the lore. Before stating that Spirits can’t return to the real world, Sakurai mentions how fighters are toys that want to get back to the real world. Spirits cannot do this, because they do not have a toy form that they can take in the real world. They are Spirits and not Fighters because they don’t have a body at all to return to. While Poké Balls and Assist Trophies have bodies, they cannot maintain those physical forms long enough to return the real world, since they despawn after a short period of time. Regardless, the divide between fighters and spirits is clear.
There are Fighter Spirits, but I will address those and why they don’t help the situation of the other Spirits in the Counterarguments section.
DLC was chosen during development:
Sakurai’s First Tweet about DLC:
Shortly after the November 1st Direct, Sakurai Tweeted the following:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
He states that the DLC Line-up was already chosen and finalized, despite being before the game released. Since it takes time for the legal rights to the Third Party characters need to be obtained, the DLC fighters were most likely chosen during development. The evidence for this is:
No Pirahna Plant Spirit:
Pirahna Plant is a Fighter, so if he’s shown as a Spirit that can be equipped (or as a Master Spirit), we can know for sure that Spirits do not deconfirm. After all, it’s pretty reasonable for him to be a spirit, since he’s a generic enemy. Only problem is, he’s not.
Sakurai’s Second Tweet about DLC:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
Why would Sakurai tell us American fans to stop supporting our most wanted characters? Because 1: he’s not taking fan requests into account for DLC and 2: The DLC picks have already been chosen. If he wasn’t so set on having no fan favorites in the game, then why would he go out of his way to make sure as many as possible are Spirits?
Counterarguments:
“Sprits are like Trophies!”
No they’re not. In order to explain the crucial difference, let’s explain what a Trophy is (or was) and what a Spirit is. A Trophy is a 3D model that allows the player to take a break from the fight and learn more about characters from certain games. Spirits are PNG files that give fighters boosts in battle. Knowing that, the difference is pretty clear. Unlike trophies, Spirits actually have a role on the battlefield, since they’re meant to be a way to implement more characters into the game, just like Poké Balls and Assist Trophies, so they aren’t the same. In fact, it’s worse than trophies, since they have a non-fighter role on the battlefield.
“Lucas and Mewtwo were trophies and made it back!”:
Yes, but Spirits are different than trophies, as I said before. Additionally, all of the DLC newcomers in Smash 4 were not previously in the game in any other form. So maybe it wasn’t that trophies didn’t deconfirm. Maybe it was that trophies DID deconfirm, and that Veterans are the exceptions, rather than the rule.
“Sakurai wouldn’t say “No. They can’t be in the game, because they’re PNG files”!”
Yes, but you’re looking at it backwards. Since spirits are easy to develop and it is entirely possible for them to be chosen after fighters, it is likely that Sakurai added those Spirits to the game with the mindset of “They’re spirits because they’re not DLC Fighters”, rather than the other way around.
“{Fighter} has a Spirit!”:
Those are Fighter Spirits, which are completely different from the other kinds of Spirits. Fighter Spirits are Spirits that do nothing. You can’t equip them like Primary or Support Spirits, and you can’t use a facility or service with their help like a Master Spirit. All you can do is look at their artwork. The spirits are nothing but a reward for clearing that character’s Classic route or buying them in the shop. Nothing else.
“There’s a Spirit that’s a form of {Fighter}!”:
OK, but those are either different iterations of the character or not that character at all. Saying that Kaptain K. Rool is the same as King K. Rool would be like saying that Dr. Mario is the same as Mario or that Toon Link is the same as Link. Each is treated as a separate character.
There is a lot of evidence that supports the idea that Spirits deconfirm characters, while there is no evidence that says otherwise without a reasonable doubt. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it’s pretty safe to say the likes of Shantae, Bandana Dee, Rayman, and Geno are just as much a lost cause as the likes of Waluigi, Shadow and Isaac.
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