Do knockback platform fighters NEED the variety of i-frame dodges that Smash has?

[Quillion]

...because the more I learn about traditional fighters, the more I learn that most of them don't have such. The closest most of them have are wake-ups, and that's only if you get knocked down by a move.

And it's honestly for good reason; i-frame dodges on command just add a lot of cheesy waiting to the game. Now don't get me wrong; that's great for 1P/PvE games, but not so much for PvP. There's a reason why Soulsborne, despite being far more balanced as an RPG, also has far less chance as an eSport than Pokémon.

Really, the more I think about it, the more i-frame dodges as a whole are a detriment to Smash. I've been opposed to air dodging for a while now, but it really seems that even the criticisms I have of air dodging apply to sidestepping and rolling too. There's a reason why both 64 and Melee made rolling very punishable to begin with.

But yeah, while i-frame dodges are probably too ingrained in Smash now, I think it would be best for the knockback platform fighter genre to not have them.

 

[Janx_uwu]

I think tech-rolls don't need i-frames, personally. Keep it on spot-dodges cause that's a reward for successfully predicting your opponent would grab.

Just straight up dodge-rolling, I think the staleing system Ultimate has is good. Rolls are easy to punish on most characters, so taking away i-frames would be too big of a detriment.

Airdodges just need a complete rework. It's really not even that I want an airdodge, more so that I want an airdash. I want a fun way for all characters to move around in the air, and it would severely close the gap between say, Kirby and Fox.

 

[Quillion]

I think tech-rolls don't need i-frames, personally.

IDK, I think wake up rolls (tech or not) at least warrant i-frames because you can only ever do them as a sort of "reaction" to being attacked. So it's on the disadvantaged player to take advantage of the i-frames that are only available in disadvantage, and the advantaged player to read them.

Keep it on spot-dodges cause that's a reward for successfully predicting your opponent would grab.

I'm a little torn on spot-dodges, but I can see them adopting Terry's "early spot-dodge cancel" universally. I think they'd feel a lot better as a sort of "universal counter" that way.

Just straight up dodge-rolling, I think the staleing system Ultimate has is good.

It's decent right now, but I'd gladly sacrifice it for an actual "dash system". Turn it from a fixed-length i-frame dodge to a variable length (micro)spacing and offense tool (yes I'm saying replace rolling with wavedashing).

Airdodges just need a complete rework. It's really not even that I want an airdodge, more so that I want an airdash. I want a fun way for all characters to move around in the air, and it would severely close the gap between say, Kirby and Fox.

Diamond-hard agree. Actually, I think replacing rolling with (wave)dashing would help ease the transition too because ground dashing and air dashing would feel like extensions of one another.

 

[Janx_uwu]

IDK, I think wake up rolls (tech or not) at least warrant i-frames because you can only ever do them as a sort of "reaction" to being attacked. So it's on the disadvantaged player to take advantage of the i-frames that are only available in disadvantage, and the advantaged player to read them.

Maybe it's cahracter-dependent then. Bowser certainly could use the i-frames given his abysmal tech speed. But I think there's enough counterplay to warrant not having i-frames. It's a 50-50 between "are they gonna roll out or are they gonna roll in?"

I'm a little torn on spot-dodges, but I can see them adopting Terry's "early spot-dodge cancel" universally. I think they'd feel a lot better as a sort of "universal counter" that way.

Would not mind that. I just can't remember the last time I actually spot-dodged. Spot-dodging on its own can be risky though, as compared to a roll, so that's why I kept the i-frames in my proposal. It's made to counter grab and that's it.

It's decent right now, but I'd gladly sacrifice it for an actual "dash system". Turn it from a fixed-length i-frame dodge to a variable length (micro)spacing and offense tool (yes I'm saying replace rolling with wavedashing).

Diamond-hard agree. Actually, I think replacing rolling with (wave)dashing would help ease the transition too because ground dashing and air dashing would feel like extensions of one another.

For sure. Anything to encourage people to wavedash - even myself, I sometimes forget HewDraw Remix or Rivals 2 have wavedashing, since you can also roll in those games. So I don't think that's a bad plan.

 

[Quillion]

Maybe it's cahracter-dependent then. Bowser certainly could use the i-frames given his abysmal tech speed. But I think there's enough counterplay to warrant not having i-frames. It's a 50-50 between "are they gonna roll out or are they gonna roll in?"

I think either way (i-frames or not) it'd be better if tech speed is a lot less variable then. Either make them all slower and include i-frames or make them all faster and lose i-frames.

Would not mind that. I just can't remember the last time I actually spot-dodged. Spot-dodging on its own can be risky though, as compared to a roll, so that's why I kept the i-frames in my proposal. It's made to counter grab and that's it.

IKR? It does feel overspecialized and even if I'm not into competitive Smash, that's an input that could be used for something better.

For sure. Anything to encourage people to wavedash - even myself, I sometimes forget HewDraw Remix or Rivals 2 have wavedashing, since you can also roll in those games. So I don't think that's a bad plan.

I'd still think the best way to encourage people to wavedash is to have waveshining on all jabs and tilts, and some specials case-by-case.

At some point, players would realize that they can not only use "ground dash" for burst movement, but to cancel moves. They'd start with canceling jabs and tilts, then dashing back, but then they'll find ways to follow up with attacks that knock the opponent forwards. It seems like a nicely smooth tech curve iyam.

(I got inspired by this playing both Hyrule Warriors games though, so admittedly cancelling all "weak moves" like that might not fit as well as I think)

 

[StoicPhantom]

The dodge mechanic was never good and it is easily the worst and most incoherent mechanic in all of Smash. It doesn't make sense for a game that is distinguished by its freedom of movement to have a mechanic that discourages said movement by giving bad positioning a get-out-of-jail-free card. It thwarts traps and forces a certain style of play that limits Smash's potential while acting as a crutch to support bad players.

The problem with rolls aren't the amount of I-frames but that they are essentially burst options that go through opponents. Traditional fighting game players really hate this aspect about Smash because it essentially neuters good positioning and stage control by just being able to casually roll through an opponent and turn around at the same time. And it's even more egregious in Ultimate where bad neutral design leads to players mashing low risk, high reward options that force opponents into their shields, which allows players to just roll through them and immediately start poking. The only real options OoS are rising aerials that can hit low or forward rolling away and some characters can cover both options at the same time.

And don't get me started on corner pressure and how that no longer exists in Ultimate because of this.

Spot-dodges are a matter of haves and have nots. Most characters don't benefit from them much, but some characters are absolutely egregious with them. Cloud is pretty much the only viable swordie in Ultimate because he can mixup with a canceled Up smash when his opponent should rightfully be able to press their advantage after getting through his neutral. Steve is another big winner he can evade pressure by canceling an Up tilt or an F smash.

I would also caution on adding things like air dashes and bringing back wavedashes and remind people that Smash has its own identity. While I like more movement options I think we are dangerously close to turning Smash into an anime fighter and I think adding those dashes would kill Smash's unique spacing.

 

[Quillion]

The dodge mechanic was never good and it is easily the worst and most incoherent mechanic in all of Smash.

110% agree. It doesn't help that rolling was very punishable in 64-Brawl but became really annoying and stalling in Smash 4.

The problem with rolls aren't the amount of I-frames but that they are essentially burst options that go through opponents. Traditional fighting game players really hate this aspect about Smash because it essentially neuters good positioning and stage control by just being able to casually roll through an opponent and turn around at the same time.

Oh yeah; I do know that tradfighters are extremely light on cross-ups at most and usually try to avoid them. And you're right, it does make positioning much less powerful than it should be.

Spot-dodges are a matter of haves and have nots. Most characters don't benefit from them much, but some characters are absolutely egregious with them. Cloud is pretty much the only viable swordie in Ultimate because he can mixup with a canceled Up smash when his opponent should rightfully be able to press their advantage after getting through his neutral. Steve is another big winner he can evade pressure by canceling an Up tilt or an F smash.

Part of why I'd advocate for Terry's early spot dodge cancel to be universalized. EVERYONE would benefit from that.

I would also caution on adding things like air dashes and bringing back wavedashes and remind people that Smash has its own identity. While I like more movement options I think we are dangerously close to turning Smash into an anime fighter and I think adding those dashes would kill Smash's unique spacing.

Hey, I'm not asking for roman cancels and bursts and everything else that ArcSys loves and has spread to newer tradfighters.

And still, if inspiration from anime fighters is what's needed to make a casual-leaning offense-oriented design instead of the current casual-leaning defense-oriented design, so be it.