Do a Barrel Roll! 3 -- April 14th, Dallas. 2v2's START AT 1:30!

[Scav]

ATTENTION! SCHEDULE HAS CHANGED!

1v1s and 2v2s have been swapped.

11:00 - Registration Begins
1:30 - 2v2s Begin
4:30 - Estimated 1v1s time

1v1s will begin after 2v2s end. We recommend getting there well before 4:30 if you only intend to participate in singles.



Ladies and Gentlemen, start your engines.

In a scant 3 weeks time we will be kicking off the MOAST Circuit with a bang with the third Do a Barrel Roll. With our bustling community, our new partnership with DFW Games, and a fresh relationship with Comic Craze in Dallas, April 14th is set to be the start of something big.

Just like Texas likes it, right?

First, the info:

Do a Barrel Roll 3
April 14th
Dallas, TX

It will be held in "Allball", a new paintball and gaming boutique located next to Comic Craze and set to open in a month.

3112 N Jupiter Rd # 315
Garland, TX 75044
(972) 414-8100

Registration begins at 11:00

1v1s begin at 1:30
2v2s begin at 6, depending on turnout.

$5 registration
$10 1v1
$5 per person 2v2

10% of the pot will go towards an end-of-year prize. The remainder will be split 60-30-10 for 1st/2nd/3rd.

The registration fee goes towards [undisclosed awesome stuff].

The MOAST ruleset will be used, which means it will be similar to what was used at the DFW Games tournament. If you have any opinions on changes, please let me know.

Now for something completely different.

Hey Scav, what does that "16x" mean in the tournament title?

I'm glad you asked, disembodied convenient voice! 16x refers to the # of points first place will recieve. The MOAST Circuit is establishing a point system used to rank the top players, and the top performer will receive prizes at the end of the year -- part of which is funded by 10% of Circuit event pots.

The amount of points is directly related to size. So, a 16x tournament is for a 33-64 person tournament. I will guarantee that many points for DaBR3. Here's the breakdown:

16x : 33-64 people
1st - 16 points
2nd - 12 points
3rd - 8 points
4th - 4 points
5th - 2 points
5th - 2 points
7th - 1 point
7th - 1 point

If we break 64 people, then it becomes a 32x tournament, and the number of points doubles. You can read more about the point system in the MOAST thread -- there is already way too much information here.

And just to rub it in, 1st-4th at the DFWG Texas Open recieved points. Wobbles is currently the top smasher in Texas with a whopping 4 points. Who wants to take him down?

This is just the beginning. Come to Dallas on April 14th and support Texas smash. Earn money, earn points, but most of all -- and this is the important part, so pay attention -- HAVE FUN.

And yes, I can house people.

Hope to see you there.

 

[DoH]

I want housing scav!!

>.>

I'll be there.

 

[bluezaft]

does that mean I have a point?

I will work to keep my points at 1.

 

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

Gotta find a way to get up there...

Hopefully Chang can too >_>.

 

[Young Danny]

Go MOAST!

I'll do my best to be there.

 

[Scav]

Yes, the current MOAST standings are:

Wobbles - 4
DoH - 3
G@BE - 2
Bluezaft - 1

I'll eventually put up a spreadsheet on Google Docs that everyone can view.

 

[Galt]

Maybe I'm being a bit of a spoil-sport, but what's the point of points? What player in any community is going to give any credence to a ranking system which relies nearly as heavily on transportation and timing as it does on the players' performances? I'm not "a priori" opposed to rankings, as they in some way encourage competition and give other areas an idea of what to expect from our players, but anything bigger than state-based, which attempts to include Texas, is asking for controversy.

If the point is to get the prize at the end, then that's something, but I might wonder if the tournament participants wouldn't prefer to just have that money up front in winnings.

 

[Wobbles]

Well, for starters, if you can't consistently make it to tournaments and show you deserve a ranking, then you won't have it. If people are travelling around a lot, placing high, and earning points, then they are demonstrating themselves to be a consistent and powerful entity in the TX smash community, yes?

Second, the MOAST circuit is interested in having these large events every month, but also permitting SMALLER events across all of TX which will also contribute to points. It is more worth your while to travel and play in the big tournaments beating more people to prove you are the best--if you can't, however, you CAN take first at the smaller, more local tournaments and earn points that way. The goal of the points is to encourage people to travel and play other people and beat them. And if somebody is ahead of you in points and you believe you deserve higher, then you have incentive to go and take them out in the next tourney and put yourself above them. I may not believe I can take first in the whole circuit, but I'll be ****ed if <someguy> takes higher than me! **sounds of furious training**

And because we're encouraging people to travel, and because MOAST circuit events will be happening in all the cities of TX, it encourages better players to travel to cities they might not have otherwise visited. This lets people who want a chance to see those better players in action actually do so. Even if your event is small, you might draw Crystal City folks in because they want to secure their spots in the circuit rankings. Now you get to have some friendlies with Caveman even though your tourney only had 20 people. Neato.

That has been our logic thus far, anyhow.

 

[Scav]

Yep, your concerns are valid, and Wobbles pretty much hit the nail on the head.

It is the responsibility of the tournament hosts to garner your trust. This includes allowin us to take that 10% out of the pot and place it towards future incentives as a cash prize. The "point" is to generate competition as well as cohesiveness.

And, you had better believe that we will have perks for points-earners.

But you're right. This point system wouldn't work for national rankings. In fact, we won't even be rewarding points to out of staters at all -- if a Circuit event gets people from Cali or North Dakota or whatever, I want them to come because it's a good tournament, not because of the point structure. Points are reserved for people who help grow the MOAST community with consistent attendance.

 

[Hylian]

I will definitly try to make this somehow.

 

[Galt]

Having smaller tournaments in other areas doesn't seem to quite cover the issue of travel dependence. People in fringe areas, like the valley, are still going to have real trouble getting to places which actually consistently hold tournaments. Even we Austin-types don't really have much of a legitimate chance if it's farther away than San Antonio, which is often. And I've seen already that there are some plans to hold a major event in Austin, but I'd like to remind everyone that Austin hasn't had a tournament in over a year (since WtyM2 last Spring Break), which hasn't resulted from pure negligence on our part. These smaller tournaments *still* benefit most those people who are best situated to travel.

And if you think that traveling often to lots of tournaments is the only way to establish yourself as a good player, I'd advise looking at the Texas power rankings, in which four of the people are from Austin, which tends not to travel overmuch (due to the reason above).

Also, saying that the point system will encourage competition for more points seems like circular logic to me. It's begging the question that enough good people will care about the points right from the beginning. I really don't believe that the best players, like Caveman mentioned above, are going to care enough about what the people, who don't already know how good they are, think about them based on a ranking. So I still can't see CC traveling to smaller tournaments just for points.

And honestly, I can't see myself caring about point-based rankings at all, even within the state. I might be vaguely curious to see the outcome, but, in looking at the name on top, regardless of who he is, I'll be more likely to think "That guy sure does go to a lot of tournaments" than "He must be a really great player."

Don't get me wrong; if you guys want to do the points thing, that's entirely your prerogative, because they're your tournaments and no one has to pay any attention to the rankings if he doesn't want to. I'm just looking to understand why someone *should* want to.

 

[pootTheBox]

Hark! Is that glorious Jupiter road in Garland?!?! A pootwoot for that.

To the third poster after this: Last August, your closest maternalish authority figure did a barrel roll with me. Deal.


I'm sorry Scav about last August.

 

[Xelic]

*Thinks about MLG*

Eh, I'm also leaning away from points, but I AM excited about this tournament. <3

 

[Galt]

Okay, after a little more discussion of the idea with someone who shall remain unnamed (hint: he giggles like a madman), I want to make one point particularly clear, and therefore I'm putting it in a separate post, instead of editing my last. It goes like this:

I wouldn't have cared at all, if you didn't take money out of the pot. Essentially, you're taking money from the people who place 2-3 at smaller tournaments, for the same 2-3 guys who go to every tournament. The perks at the end won't benefit the vast majority of players in any way, but several of them will be hurt by it.

That is my main concern.

 

[Scav]

Correct, and I'm actually interested in seeing how the local events affects the system. Right now, the plan is to allow any region that wants to to have 1 tournament per month worth 8 points.

The system does discriminate against regions like the Valley, but not much more than the absence of tournaments already does. The idea is to take out a small enough amount of money that it doesn't hurt the tournament (a $150 prize instead of a $175 for first, for example) but that it does eventually "add up."

To get technical, there are a lot of psychological principles that I want to take advantage of with a point system. I want there to be a unifying factor to Circuit events. I want to get the "foot in the door" with local communities, allowing them to feel like a part of a larger Texas smash experience. A point structure does have the potential to spur rivalries, because any finite resource can spur rivalries.

Part of it is in the weighting. Right now, getting first at a large tournament is vastly better than getting second, and better than getting first at a small tournament. Getting first at the Valley tournament, which I'm expecting at least 65+, would be worth 32 points -- but second is worth 24, possibly less.

If it turns out to be too exploitable, then yes, something needs to change.

And yes, the small tournaments would benefit those able to travel, since Drew can travel to, say, Magnolia, Waco and Lubbock to try to glean 24 points between regionals. But still, that's an impressive commitment, requires traveling every week of the month to pull off, and he *still* haves to win those tournaments. And, it's possible that the regions would want to endeavor to prevent an out of towner from winning their points.

There is also the specter of collusion. Suppose DoH and Wobbles meet in the finals of yet another tournament, but Wobbles is 4 points behind Caveman. What can we do to prevent DoH from throwing the match in exchange for a cut of the final prize, which would probably end up larger than the current tournament's pot? Not much. Which is a worry.

But also, the system is adaptable. If it ends up just being a pot for "good players who can travel" instead of "great players," it still benefits the community. I'm going to take a gamble and predict that Wobbles and DoH are not the only smashers willing to travel this season. If Caveman, Fastliketree, etc end up absent from the point system, I don't mind spreading the money around a bit to people who are able to travel more.

Point structures have an interesting effect on other games. In Magic, they use it in conjunction with a chess-like rating system. Winning an event gets a certain number of "pro points," which qualifies you for benefits and invitations to more exclusive events. The player with the most pro points at the end of the year is named "Player of the Year," which is very separate from winning "World Champion," "Invitational Champion," "National Champion," or even "Pro Tour Winner." It emphasizes that there is more than one way to be excellent at the game, and one of those is in consistently placing highly in many events.

The Player of the Year is rarely, if ever (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the World Champion.

Time to staunch the flow of this post. Basically, a point structure is meant to do a number of things, in particular have a unified structure across the state. It is good for some people (college students with lots of time on their hands), discriminatory against others... but then again, the Valley is discriminated against anyways by a lack of close tournaments. If anything, we're trying to make up for it with the hope of an added incentive -- there's a good chance I'll be guaranteeing a large 48 points for their event.

If done right, it will all balance out. But it requires a lot of balancing, which is why I appreciate your concerns. The community has a lot to gain in cohesiveness and passion if a point structure takes off. And if it doesn't, well, there are other options open to us as well.

Aaaand an edit to address Galt's second post:

that's my biggest concern I don't want players to feel like they're getting exploited or cheated. The reason why we're starting out with money from the pot, is because that's how the Kishes do it in the midwest circuit. If there is a backlash against it, I will back off.

In fact, I can do better than that. I can keep track of people who place at each regional event, and if the point system doesn't take off, send them the money.

Another thing to make clear: The "local" events I'm talking about won't be donating money. Their pots go entirely to the winners of the tournament.

Also, I'm interested in hearing ways to make it "worth it" for the perennially 2-4's (and people like me who get fifth every single **** time). There *are* ways to make points a distinguishing factor besides money. You're right that this benefits places 4-8 but penalizes 2-3, and that needs to be addressed.

 

[Galt]

I'm going to take some time today to really analyze the concept of the point system and see what I can determine about the benefits and drawbacks. What I'm looking to satisfy are the following issues:

1) A superfluous point system must have a value beyond the normal in order to justify withholding funds.
2) There must be some way to work around penalizing people who place decently in a few tournaments but have no chance of ranking well in the overall scores; otherwise, you're just taking some of the money they would've won in a normal tournament.
3) Players must have some reason to care about ranking well, which is probably tied in with (1), in the sense that the value of the system may only be applicable if enough of the right people take it seriously.
4) I would like to minimize the importance of a player's location in his ability to acquire points (or whatever resource is used), but I am uncertain (and leaning toward the opposite) that this is possible.
5) It follows from (4) that players who are geographically disadvantaged will need some reason to care enough about doing well to be willing to travel further than they usually would. I do not believe that competition over points alone will be sufficient for this at all, if the money from placing well would not do it alone.

I would like to take this time to state that collusion and things of that nature are, I think, just part of the game. Take normal tournaments, for instance. I've seen Caveman and Rob$, Fastliketree and Xelic, even Ken and Chu Dat decide the outcome of their matches so that one player can be strategically matched against another player. I do not think this is cheating. I think it is playing the odds. Victory is never certain.

Regarding the following paragraph:

"But also, the system is adaptable. If it ends up just being a pot for "good players who can travel" instead of "great players," it still benefits the community. I'm going to take a gamble and predict that Wobbles and DoH are not the only smashers willing to travel this season. If Caveman, Fastliketree, etc end up absent from the point system, I don't mind spreading the money around a bit to people who are able to travel more."

I am entirely uninterested in redistribution of wealth. I almost want to say that the winners of a tournament should be allowed to withhold their earnings from the calculation of the 10%, but at the same time, it's up to the organizer to determine how the winnings are distributed, and if people don't like the rules, they don't have to attend. I only want to say that, if money is taken from the winners, it should only be to benefit a few grand winners of the system, with no effort toward rewarding people who travel often. The reward for traveling to lots of tournaments should be getting lots of points and possibly money for winning.

_____

Now a theoretical suggestion:

"Also, I'm interested in hearing ways to make it "worth it" for the perennially 2-4's (and people like me who get fifth every single **** time). There *are* ways to make points a distinguishing factor besides money. You're right that this benefits places 4-8 but penalizes 2-3, and that needs to be addressed."

Suppose you keep track of the placement for all relevant tournaments. Why not take some of the money withheld for the grand prize and use it to fund 1-3 smaller side-tournaments (to be held during the regular events, so that the players will already be gathered) and restrict entry to these tournaments to the "2-4" people? It doesn't have to be too much, just something to give back a little to the people who are most negatively affected by the system. Or maybe instead of money it could be for a few extra points.

I'm not too sure about that last part; as I said, I am uninterested in redistribution, and technically, every player knows the rules when he enters, so he'd better be prepared to lose some money as just another part of the game. There will, after all, be plenty of people who enter and win neither points nor money.

Maybe the reasonable partial solution lies in weighting the points for each placement. I see that you've done that, in how 1st place doesn't get a ton more points than 2nd (first place really isn't all that different from second, after all).

So yes, I'll think more about these things later.

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

*insert words*.

Go back and read your English books NOOB!

 

[Galt]

I'm going to give you an extra nipple-jab this week, Chang. I'm going to put a twist in it, increasing the damaging capacity. There's no hope for you.

 

[samusedaway]

Galt, I see some of the points you make in your argument, but if you are that irked by such trivial matters as a point system invoked solely to encourage competition and reward , lets say, a "die-hard" tournament goer then why not just ignore it yourself? The deduction from the pot isn't only going into rewarding the points winner. I believe if you read Scav's original post on the MOAST circuit you'll find that the deduction is also going to paying for venues and/or food for these tournaments.

I don't know why the points bother you so much. Perhaps you're angry because you don't think it will benefit you, or maybe you just like to argue. I'm certain Scav appreciates input, but extended repugnance of anything, especially something that he hasn't had time to experiment with or change at all, is most likely not needed.

Now were you to wait until that policy was changed and then have further comments this would probably be more productive.

 

[Dr Drew the Dragon]

There is another reason for the point system that I don't think has been mentioned, it will be used to seed for FC Next (don't know the details yet but those are up to Prime), along with similar points rankings in other regions. It's just an incentive to get people to travel, which brings more people tournaments, which creates community goodness.

Regardless, this discussion, despite having many valid points on both ends, is better designed for the MOAST circuit topic, not this one.

Please stop writing novels you silly English majors.

So yeah, feel free to continue this in the MOAST circuit topic where it'll actually apply or I'll start having to throw in some warnings.

Also don't think you can get out of it just because you're a petroleum engineer.

 

[Scav]

You can't warn me! Nyaha!

But yes, I'll update the Moast topic with a comprehensive explanation of the point system.

But real quick, to Fmatt: Galt's concerned because he's paying for it. He has every right to be.

Also, Galt, where the heck have you been hiding? Complete sentences aren't allowed back here, and certainly not cogent arguments.

 

[samusedaway]

I suppose but it still holds that continuous complaining without giving you a chance to do anything isn't going to help at all.

Also *changes major to one unknown to drew*

 

[Galt]

I suppose but it still holds that continuous complaining without giving you a chance to do anything isn't going to help at all.

Did you read my posts? They're not phrased as complaints at all. Honestly, how do you expect anyone to change anything if he doesn't discuss it? I'm not even asking him to change things--yet. I'm just trying to determine if there is something which should be changed, and if so, how. If I were Scav, and trying to do something important to a lot of people, I'd welcome praise and dissent alike, because that's how you make things the best they can be. And knowing that, I figured it would be in my best interest to raise the concerns I have.

Scav, I'm not really new around here; I lurked for a while, and I've been into the competitive Smash community since I came to UT Austin, 2.5 years ago. I just haven't been able to make it to (m)any tournaments until very recently, and until I joined SWF, I went by the tag of Omni (thought I'd better change that, because there are way too many Omnis already).

Anyway, Drew, I suppose I'll head over to the other thread in the future. Even though I think the thread for the first real tournament involving the point system in question is a pretty decent place to discuss it.

And regarding the MOAST points being used to seed FC Next, I can hardly wait to see how low FLT/Xelic are going to be seeded. Although they may be able to make it to some tournaments over the summer...

 

[liius]

Yeah, I might go to this and bring some peeps. I would need housing so if anyone would not mind then, like, let me know.

 

[JesusFreak]

I want to come! I shall commence convincing Zev to take Chang, Rayz and me. I don't care about silly arguments or silly rankings, I just wanna smash and see Scav again! <3 I also wanna go to a GAYBAR, but this might have to suffice.

 

[Wobbles]

Yeah, let's get as many entrants to this thing as possible. We want to show the venue what Texas Smash is made of The guys running it seem like they will be excellent hosts and venue partners, and we want to show them we'll be equally excellent to have around.

 

[WiLD BOris]

Sorry I couldnt make it last time. My stolen car was found Saturday morning.

Sooo 2 weeks from saturday, nice. I should be off and therefore attending w/ company.

 

[Scav]

Nice! You got your car back? And it... works?

Jesusfreak, who doesn't want a Gaybar? But you'll have to talk to Sintenal about that...

 

[DoH]

If Sint doesn't want to do it, I think I should. I mean it's only fitting.

It'd be amazing if I could get it at S4. lolz

 

[WiLD BOris]

Yes! Yes!

Insurance should pay for the damages.

 

[felix45]

I have one question. Will the point money be given out to everyone who earns points (like say 1 point is a quarter or something, for when you find out how many points there are as a ratio for each dollar or something), or just those who get 1st - 3rd (or something to that extent) in the point system?


Not that I'll be getting any points, I'm just wondering so that those who usually place around 5th-7thish would still get a tad bit of cash, even if it is almost nothing.

 

[Scav]

I'll have more details on the prize structure when I outline it in the MOAST topic. Right now, I'm still working on ratios and extras.

 

[Sintenal]

If Sint doesn't want to do it, I think I should. I mean it's only fitting.

It'd be amazing if I could get it at S4. lolz

well seeing as i have no real place to hold another GAYBAR(even more so since i live in Lubbock, far away from 95% of the smash community of Texas), i will allow you to take my tourny name ONLY IF you play the song "Gaybar" during the finals. It just wouldn't be the same without it.

 

[artarian]

in regards to this tournament and the circuit and what not.....

count me in.

as i drive lots of people, count on me bringing people......people such as: cHaNg-sTa, Rayzorium, JF, ARC, Hylian, etc

 

[G@BE]

Awesome Awesome

My birthday will have been two days before this. So my mom will let me go to it ^-^ i is happy
So!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

We still need housing

 

[bluezaft]

I can house some people. Like 4.

 

[uglywombat2004]

Me being one of those people.

 

[JesusFreak]

Zev, I think Jesse is alos wanting to go to this. Idk if he will be taking Austin and me or not. We should try to coordinate something. But yea, count on ARC and me to be there.

 

[liius]

Well, I wont be able to go friday so alas, we'll have to go on a saturday. One day things, they suck.

 

[Jake13]

I will need housing plus two people. Any takers?