DLC Dominance: The Future of Smash 4?

Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta: the three most recent DLC characters. They join Ryu, Roy, Lucas, and Mewtwo as DLC in Smash 4 and the last additions to the roster. The latest three DLC characters already have been making splashes in events, and pros and new players alike are praising their strengths. How strong are these characters really? Do they have the chance to overthrow Sheik and dominate the game? Let's take a look at the data.

Cloud​

Cloud came out of the gate running after his release. Komorikiri was able to take 3rd place at the Sumabato NicoNico Qualifiers shortly after his release. According to the Smashboards Ranking System, within one week of Cloud's release he was the number one character seen within the top 16 and the third most-seen character, taking first in only one week.

Bayonetta​

Last night, Nairo had his worst Smash 4 placement ever as well as his worst overall placement ever since Apex 2010. The harbinger of this was Salem's Bayonetta, who sent him to the loser's bracket.

Bayonetta has already begun to make a serious impact in Japan, with Komorikiri winning Sumabato 7 and Nyanko taking 5th at Umebura 21. Even on the lighter side of things, Pink Fresh has already taken a first-place finish at Xanadu using Bayonetta. The ranking system on Smashboards shows that within a week of her release, she is already the 4th most-seen character within the top 16 of tournaments.

Corrin​

Here is the number that may be more surprising. Corrin has taken more first-place finishes than Bayonetta since release according to the Smashboards rankings. These placements are tied with Cloud for first as well. While many discuss the power of Witch Time, Corrin seems to be taking more events in general. However, Bayonetta's first-place results seem to be at much more stacked tournaments, so they can't be counted out.

Other DLC​

So were the older DLC characters just as popular at release? While Ryu made many waves at the start, he never showed the levels of dominance or even popularity of the other DLC characters, though he is ranked 4th on the first Official Smash 4 Back Room Tier List. Roy, Lucas, and Mewtwo also never saw similar surges. Currently, the most-seen character in the top 16 as of the latest patch is Ryu at 18th, and Lucas, Roy, and Mewtwo only have 3 first-place finishes combined.

Questions To Be Answered​

This makes for an interesting question: is the success we are seeing from Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta just a surge in popularity bringing them forward? Looking at the past data, even with many people trying out DLC characters as their new mains, none took hold quite so strongly as the newest ones. Will they lose their hold once people learn the matchups?

Could Bayonetta overtake Sheik? Possibly, but she has a long way to go. Sheik is 8 places higher than Bayonetta when it comes to first-place wins, and Sheik still outranks Bayonetta for top 16 placements. While it's not impossible that she could rise or at least become one of the largest tournament threats, trying to take Sheik's number one place on the tier list may be tough.

Will we possibly see more DLC characters in the top 8 than base characters soon? It seems unlikely, but not altogether impossible if the amount of top placements for Corrin, Cloud, and Bayonetta keeps climbing. However, do not underestimate adaptation: Marss was able to take down Salem with Zero Suit Samus in a best of five later in the same tournament Nairo fell. It could just be that people need to learn the matchup.

How do the readers feel about the newest DLC characters' splash in tournaments? Sound off in the comments below, and be sure to check out the Smashboards Rankings System: much useful data can be found there!

 

Maybe it's just me, but i personally feel like Bayonetta is overrated. Most of her play is largely due to her popularity. This reminds of when people were saying Roy was broken because they died to his f-smash at 60, or how some thought Lucas the new Diddy. We just have to wait for the meta to develop.

It's also important to think of the smash 4 meta at the time. Compared to Mewtwo's release and Roy's release, Bayo and Corrins release has come at a time after the first tier list where about 75% of the cast have been labbed extensively. People were exploding because of all the IASA timings being changed thinking that Roy could slap you across the stage like Shiek.

Of course, we're still missing out on a few who should definitely be much more of a threat relative to the cast (Peach, Olimar, Tink and Lucas come to mind) but right now with the meta in mind, I think we can all see Bayonetta going the farthest due to the tools at her disposal and the profound versatility in her moveset. Once bayo optimisation reaches even Trela levels...what will we do?

 

For the small price of $5.99.

Small loan of a million dollars.

 

For the record, I called this Pay2Win stuff before Mewtwo even hit, which is why I advocated banning DLC characters from tournament play. Now we have several high tiers that can't be labbed unless you pay another third of the original game's cost, not to mention the advantage you get by picking of of these over the others.

I tried to warn you, but I guess it was naive to expect a reasonable response out of this board.

 

For the record, I called this Pay2Win stuff before Mewtwo even hit, which is why I advocated banning DLC characters from tournament play. Now we have several high tiers that can't be labbed unless you pay another third of the original game's cost, not to mention the advantage you get by picking of of these over the others.

I tried to warn you, but I guess it was naive to expect a reasonable response out of this board.

"Another third of the game's cost"

My parents got me a Wii U literally because of Smash 4 (Smash is probably the only franchise that sells consoles). People who have setups also have to have GameCube controller adapters, which is about 20 bucks (may be more or less), never mind the infatuation with Dreamland that means you have to purchase it as well.

Additionally, tournaments for Smash 4 usually cost 10 bucks or more (5 venue fee, 5 entry, and often 5 moreally for doubles).

If you are really worried about the characters and actually feel you can't afford them, take the money you would spend entering the tournament, don't enter (not like you're gonna win anything without the MU experience anyway), and hide it in a box or something. After a few tournaments, you'll have more than enough to get all the required DLC. The cost of DLC is basically a drop in the bucket relative to the cost required to be able to play the game without DLC.

(I'm also choosing to ignore listing the many benefits that come with allowing the DLC, and only focusing on the money here, never mind the dubious claim that you have to personally lab them to learn about them.)

 

For the record, I called this Pay2Win stuff before Mewtwo even hit, which is why I advocated banning DLC characters from tournament play. Now we have several high tiers that can't be labbed unless you pay another third of the original game's cost, not to mention the advantage you get by picking of of these over the others.

I tried to warn you, but I guess it was naive to expect a reasonable response out of this board.

Don't act like you're messiah or something, every fighting game's competition scene allow DLC characters independent of their tier placement.... why Smash would be different?

 

There are threads catered to such discussion, probably spearheaded by P PhantomShab or something like that.

I haven't spearheaded anything. lol

 

For the record, I called this Pay2Win stuff before Mewtwo even hit, which is why I advocated banning DLC characters from tournament play. Now we have several high tiers that can't be labbed unless you pay another third of the original game's cost, not to mention the advantage you get by picking of of these over the others.

I tried to warn you, but I guess it was naive to expect a reasonable response out of this board.

Cry more, my fries are in need of the extra salt.

 

OK, I don't get you people. First you complain the DLC characters are trash, now you complaining they are good? Could we please look at the records?

Trash tier on release, everyone dropped him by the first week. Got buffed recently, now has respectable local results, but nothing to brag about. The most potential he has right now is being a counterpick to zoners.

Ultra nerfed from Brawl (where he was trash), no one gave a damn about him courtesy of and , no one gives a damn about him now. People keep insisting he has potential, but with no players I can't see him as anything but potential trash tier.

I remember everyone and their dogs saying this character was trash because "he has no range" and "his recovery is trash," then 9B and Trela play Ryu. Now he is overrated by the Smash 4 BR. No way he is better than .

Overrated until this very day. He is not good, everyone below him in the tier list has accomplished more.

This 2 right now are debate inducing messes, either counterplay will screw them over time, or they are truly good despite their crippling weaknesses. I don't really care or know, I cannot see the future like . Add that, unlike the 2 overrated low tiers, actually have players and results. I expect to drop like . Unless someone good picks her up and she is actually good. At the very least good.

 

I feel like this is the most important line right now.

Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta, are only brand new. Not just new, but they actually have unique mechanics that nobody else has.

People figure them out overtime and then they won't look as good anymore. The thing about them is that while the top tiers have very little in the way of obvious weaknesses, and have easily accessible strengths, Cloud, Corrin, and Bayonetta have VERY obvious weaknesses, and their strengths take a bit more work to really get a use out of (especially Bayonetta).

People just need time to get used to them, then they won't be as dominant. There's also the fact at, in the initial hype of DLC, people SPECIFICALLY want to use these characters to show them off.

If you have been doing any research or watched other much more well versed Bayonettas in other tournaments or on the Bayo fourms labbing you would understand that Salems Bayonetta really PALES in comparison. He got that far for his strong fundamentals.

 

I remember everyone and their dogs saying this character was trash because "he has no range" and "his recovery is trash," then 9B and Trela play Ryu. Now he is overrated by the Smash 4 BR. No way he is better than .

Not saying it's true, but a commentator once said that Trela thinks Ryu beats Sheik. If that's true, unless he gets bodied by Rosa and ZSS, he is almost certainly better than MK and Sonic [the former is supposedly thrashed by ZSS and Sheik, while the latter probably struggles against both and Sheik heavily].

[Although it's beside the point, I think Pikachu is better than Ryu, and also figured Ryu would be pretty good because true Shoryuken seemed strong, but I had also never pegged him higher than top 15 until recently... *shrugs*].

 

Because my entire post was about how well they did crafting new characters with unique mechanics and balancing them enough that they're viable in competitve play without being overwhelming. Ganondorf was the best example I could think of for the opposite scenario. No unique mechanics, polarized design, and this is his third opportunity in Smash Bros to have fixed these things.

Sorry if I struck a nerve somehow by bringing up Ganon. Trust me, I've got no interest at all in talking about him any further than I need to for this thread's topic.

I fail to see how unique mechanics and a non-polarized design in and of themselves guarantees that Ganondorf will be better in the next Super Smash Bros. game. He could have swords, sorcery, and bare-knuckled brawling in the next game and still suck complete *ss (a concept some diehards around here can't seem to grasp whatsoever). Could he be viable in the competitive meta game with all of this? Yes. Could Ganondorf work as a sluggish Captain Falcon moveset derivative. Yes.
It's not that you've merely brought up Ganondorf in this discussion (though I still would have raised a brow at it either way), it's that you've implied that Ganondorf with a sword moveset instead of his Captain Falcon moveset derivative would/will be more viable than what we have. I absolutely hate when someone makes that sort of implication of any character if things went the way the "fans" wanted them to go (and it's often because they're unsatisfied with what they have and/or honestly believe they would do better than Sakurai Masahiro if put in charge of the game).
Maybe I'm simply not attached to Ganondorf that much (or any character for that matter) but I'm afraid I just don't feel the exact same way you do about his situation. Believe me when I say this: I would love a Ganondorf with weaponry, sorcery, and bare-knuckled brawling and possibly with a horse if Sakurai Masahiro can make horses work in Super Smash Bros. (the most faithful depiction of Ganondorf in my eyes), but I am not in the slightest irate over his current depiction and I would want to find some way to balance him out as much as possible against the rest of the cast with all that he has. Character viability balance and faithful character representation in crossovers the scale of Super Smash Bros. are two virtually incompatible things that have to have a some form of middle ground to please as much people as possible. I actually want him to be a little more of a hand-to-hand type in the Zelda games themselves to not make him such a straight evil, sorcerous warlord with weapons that is so prevalent in medieval settings. All I'm really going to do about this is see what happens next instead of whatever it is everyone else in this fanbase does.
Excuse the long whatever you want to call it.

 

I haven't spearheaded anything. lol

Keyword: Probably not Guaranteed.

 

If you have been doing any research or watched other much more well versed Bayonettas in other tournaments or on the Bayo fourms labbing you would understand that Salems Bayonetta really PALES in comparison. He got that far for his strong fundamentals.

I don't see how that has any relation to my point.

I said that Bayonetta and the other DLC characters have obvious, exploitable weaknesses, unlike the top tiers who don't leave many kinks in their armour when they are played well. As such, I do not think the DLC characters will be the dominant characters for the entire meta game, especially over time as people start exploiting their weaknesses any further.

I wasn't referring to any one specific player here, I'm talking about the characters in general.

 

Not saying it's true, but a commentator once said that Trela thinks Ryu beats Sheik. If that's true, unless he gets bodied by Rosa and ZSS, he is almost certainly better than MK and Sonic [the former is supposedly thrashed by ZSS and Sheik, while the latter probably struggles against both and Sheik heavily].

[Although it's beside the point, I think Pikachu is better than Ryu, and also figured Ryu would be pretty good because true Shoryuken seemed strong, but I had also never pegged him higher than top 15 until recently... *shrugs*].

Actually, as I play Meta Knight as a secondary, I can tell you that MK does beat Sheik. It's 55:45 if not closer but he does. I can also tell you that he is definitely better than Ryu.

I don't see how Ryu could ever in a million years beat Sheik, though. He's so easy for Sheik to combo and his bad air acceleration just cements that. I really think Trela was just bull****ing because there is no way Ryu could win that MU.

 

Not saying it's true, but a commentator once said that Trela thinks Ryu beats Sheik. If that's true, unless he gets bodied by Rosa and ZSS, he is almost certainly better than MK and Sonic [the former is supposedly thrashed by ZSS and Sheik, while the latter probably struggles against both and Sheik heavily].

[Although it's beside the point, I think Pikachu is better than Ryu, and also figured Ryu would be pretty good because true Shoryuken seemed strong, but I had also never pegged him higher than top 15 until recently... *shrugs*].

MK getting thrashed by ZSS? This isn't January-Sept 2015 anymore.

MK 100% loses to Sheik though no debate in that.

 

If only ALL characters would be treated the same way the DLCs (barring Lucas and Mewtwo) were treated... Or vice versa...

 

OK corrin could be a threat in doubles and possibley singles due to spacing but bayonetta might not be a threat because she's slow and she might have very great combo game.Plus her only kill moves are here smashes and bair.

 

OK corrin could be a threat in doubles and possibley singles due to spacing but bayonetta might not be a threat because she's slow and she might have very great combo game.Plus her only kill moves are her smashes and bair.

Kill moves don't matter when Bayoneta can WT and disrespect you. Her bullets and Smash attacks also limit a lot of recovery options, so Bayoneta can gimp easily.

 

For the record, I called this Pay2Win stuff before Mewtwo even hit, which is why I advocated banning DLC characters from tournament play. Now we have several high tiers that can't be labbed unless you pay another third of the original game's cost, not to mention the advantage you get by picking of of these over the others.

I tried to warn you, but I guess it was naive to expect a reasonable response out of this board.

Banning DLC is not a reasonable solution because you would instantly be alienating users of those seven characters. Sorry, but when the majority clearly wants to see them in, appealing to the minority such as you isn't feasible. Add to that that your reasons for banning them are less noble and more selfish than you actually care to admit, so you are not exactly doing this as a community service but rather looking after yourself.
In the era of the internet, you have no excuse to learn about characters you don't even play as and this community constantly labs and post their research online. Though I've never expected a reasonable response from you anyways.

 

I'm starting to agree more with what Zero said about Bayonetta in his video on her speculated tier placement. She has problems with patient opponents who shield. So far, I haven't found many (if any) of her attacks to be safe on shield and she has no killthrows.

I can definitely see Corrin following in the same vein as cloud. Both of them just appear to be good characters, in a straightforward manner. One of the two obviously with better recovery.

 

Personally, I view mid-tier as a place for putting characters that just don't have enough rep yet.

says hi.

 

Banning DLC is not a reasonable solution because you would instantly be alienating users of those seven characters. Sorry, but when the majority clearly wants to see them in, appealing to the minority such as you isn't feasible. Add to that that your reasons for banning them are less noble and more selfish than you actually care to admit, so you are not exactly doing this as a community service but rather looking after yourself.
In the era of the internet, you have no excuse to learn about characters you don't even play as and this community constantly labs and post their research online. Though I've never expected a reasonable response from you anyways.

Tell this to anti-Miis.

 

Tell this to anti-Miis.

Except Miis are created characters and no competitive scene should have created characters, ever.
Do you see people bringing their own creations to Soul Calibur tournaments? Me neither.

 

No fighting game has ever been balanced, yet people have adapted all the same. Even if this game WAS poorly balanced, that's no reason not to adapt.

Just as an FYI you're talking to a guy that thought Ganondorf was OP.

 

Bayo is certainly a good character but I think people are really underestimating Corrin.

Corrin has great mixups, great spacing tools, and solid kill power. I feel people are looking past him/her because of how flashy bayo is in comparison. This article isnt wrong, everyones so focused on bayo but if you take a moment to peep at how Corrin is performing in tournaments, you would see Corrin is really not that far off from being as much of a threat as the others.

 

For the record, I called this Pay2Win stuff before Mewtwo even hit, which is why I advocated banning DLC characters from tournament play. Now we have several high tiers that can't be labbed unless you pay another third of the original game's cost, not to mention the advantage you get by picking of of these over the others.

I tried to warn you, but I guess it was naive to expect a reasonable response out of this board.

I don't consider it pay to when when only one DLC character has cracked the top ten in the tier list and that's Ryu.

Cloud is solid, but he's 12th on the tier list, and Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas are all in the middle to lower tiers.

Point is, I don't see anything that is is ban worthy yet. Ryu is fourth, but Shiek, ZSS, and Rosalina(three characters that come with the core game) are all considered better then him.

Unless something is outright broken, then DLC characters should never be banned. As far as I'm aware, other fighting games don't ban DLC characters, so why should Smash do the same?

 

If you are really worried about the characters and actually feel you can't afford them, take the money you would spend entering the tournament, don't enter (not like you're gonna win anything without the MU experience anyway), and hide it in a box or something. After a few tournaments, you'll have more than enough to get all the required DLC. The cost of DLC is basically a drop in the bucket relative to the cost required to be able to play the game without DLC.

This is all well and good but you're forgetting one very important thing. You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever. It is a line in the sand no one should cross. By offering these low prices on DLC they are aiming to manipulate and convince you that it is not a big deal to pay extra specifically because the price is so low. You end up believing what you've posted here. You end up paying a few extra dollars when you don't really have to and you feel like that should be the norm or that its acceptable. That is exactly what they wanted. To make it acceptable in society to pay the extra pointless fee so they could take your money.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

 

This is all well and good but you're forgetting one very important thing. You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever. It is a line in the sand no one should cross. By offering these low prices on DLC they are aiming to manipulate and convince you that it is not a big deal to pay extra specifically because the price is so low. You end up believing what you've posted here. You end up paying a few extra dollars when you don't really have to and you feel like that should be the norm or that its acceptable. That is exactly what they wanted. To make it acceptable in society to pay the extra pointless fee so they could take your money.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

Are you saying we should get every single DLC pack from Hyrule Warriors for free?
I mean, I agree with boycotting stuff like MKX and Battlefront stupid DLCs (heck, everybody should boycott the whole games, why would anyone would want to play Battlefront anyway?), but every DLC? Devs gotta eat....

 

This is all well and good but you're forgetting one very important thing. You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever. It is a line in the sand no one should cross. By offering these low prices on DLC they are aiming to manipulate and convince you that it is not a big deal to pay extra specifically because the price is so low. You end up believing what you've posted here. You end up paying a few extra dollars when you don't really have to and you feel like that should be the norm or that its acceptable. That is exactly what they wanted. To make it acceptable in society to pay the extra pointless fee so they could take your money.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

I forgot the part where you had the authority to tell us what we can and can't do with our money.

 

I think the only point that matters is that the devs are a little arrogant to assume that the latest newcomers won't need any balancing tweaks, be it buffs or nerfs.

 

It's not really surprising that DLC released 2-3 weeks ago is ranking high in tournaments. Few people know them very well. The matchups are not well known either. Seriously, why are people crying over "high tier" allegations on characters that are less than a month old?

Remember when Smash 4 first released and everyone was crying that Little Mac was OP? Remember when Bowser was considered top-tier?

Seriously, tiers need time to really develop. Look at melee; its tier list was still radically changing even 5 years after release. These characters have barely been out for 1 month.

Chill.

You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

Yeah, **** all those people who are making these DLC for a living! They should work for free to appease entitled teenagers on the internet!

 

This is all well and good but you're forgetting one very important thing. You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever. It is a line in the sand no one should cross. By offering these low prices on DLC they are aiming to manipulate and convince you that it is not a big deal to pay extra specifically because the price is so low. You end up believing what you've posted here. You end up paying a few extra dollars when you don't really have to and you feel like that should be the norm or that its acceptable. That is exactly what they wanted. To make it acceptable in society to pay the extra pointless fee so they could take your money.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

Cancer is a disease that kills people. This is a system to enhance gameplay well beyond what was originally put out. Two very different things.

Furthermore, the DLC is something they are under no obligation to make, and we are under no obligation to use. But it enhances the overall game experience, from a casual and competitive perspective, which is why nearly all tournaments mandate having DLC characters. They are under no obligation to offer patches either, but they do so anyway to enhance the gameplay experience of the players [unless you'd like Diddy Kong able to airdodge out of every combo ever and killing people at 90, Sheik true combo dthrow uairing everyone not Diddy Kong for KOs, and Luma respawning every 8 seconds (or whatever it used to be)]. And those patches are all free themselves.

You seem to have some extremely dubious axioms about games should work and make questionable claims because of them. DLC is an add-on, not included in the game for whatever reason. In the case of Cloud/Bayonetta/Corrin, the reason is crystal-clear - they could have held the smash ballot and delayed the game's release until this February [that's over a year and a half], or they could release the game when it's complete [which it was at 1.0.0], then update it periodically and ask for feedback about what other characters people want to see.

In doing so, they have to expand a fair bit of energy to build every single one of those characters and balance them around 50+ other characters [3.0 PM Mewtwo took over 600 hours to create from scratch, and he was also not well-balanced]. I imagine Nintendo can make them somewhat more quickly with a larger staff and not having to hack stuff, but I can imagine a similar time commitment [which is why we wait months for these characters].

You're telling me to expect them to give us 7 bonus characters [plus new stages] for free? To do this for people they've never met, many of whom angrily hurl expletives and even threats at them for not making the game exactly as they want it?

Grow up.

 

Kill moves don't matter when Bayoneta can WT and disrespect you. Her bullets and Smash attacks also limit a lot of recovery options, so Bayoneta can gimp easily.

Yeah gimp is just the word that goes against it because tbh all you do is DI and you cant gimp

 

Bayonetta?

SIDE B PLS

 

This is all well and good but you're forgetting one very important thing. You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever. It is a line in the sand no one should cross. By offering these low prices on DLC they are aiming to manipulate and convince you that it is not a big deal to pay extra specifically because the price is so low. You end up believing what you've posted here. You end up paying a few extra dollars when you don't really have to and you feel like that should be the norm or that its acceptable. That is exactly what they wanted. To make it acceptable in society to pay the extra pointless fee so they could take your money.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

Bruh. This is called business.

 

Okay, let's go.
First of all, Bayonetta is a good character.
It's not the first time a character with a bad neutral game is proven to reach high placements and win stuff because he has a amazing punish game or early kills. Look at MK neutral game, is sad.
But he can be losing for you in the entire game than kill you of a dash attack at 20~40%.
Bayo is that type of character.

She is top-tier material ? Possible.
It all will depends if there's something to adapt at first place.
People keep saying "Learn how to DI" as a argument.
Do you guys realize that Nairo and many others top players know how to DI ? Do you think they don't tried their best to avoid being combo'ed by Bayonetta ? It's not as the character is only combo'ing to death some scrubs in For Glory. It's happening in tourneys and if people don't discover how to break this strings or don't be catched in a Witch Time, Bayonetta will be proven a excelent choice for competitive play, a top tier.
I main Sheik.
I think Bayo can develop over Sheik. I don't like her inclusion (I played both games fyi) but as a competitive player I need to accept/adapt or prove that she is really broken.
We're very far from the third option, since we got no major tourney since Bayonetta debut. Let's try our best with adapting.Maybe it works.

Now what I think about Corrin....
Solid character.
But in Smash4, because we have a character that is almost perfect at neutral game (Sheik), amazing combo's to death (ZSS, MK, Ryu...), being solid doen't look to be what a character need to suceed.
Pit is solid. I think Corrin will be at maximum around Pit in the tier list.

Cloud.
Cloud is not completely new anymore. Cloud have a excelent and very experienced player maining him (M2K), plus a lot of great players.
People choose Cloud because he is popular, but because he have great options too. He can be less solid than Corrin (more flaws as a character), but his strengts are in another level in comparison.
Finishing Touch force people to never airdodge in some spacing situations because a airdodge read can kill you at 50~60%: Uair them all day long.
Limit Cross Slash is a powerfull edge guard tool against character that don't have hitboxes in their recovery.
His neutral-B is a awesome move when charged too.
And his neutral game is at least good, because combines great range with good framedata, and Limit break makes you approach him.
Cloud is not a bad character at all.
But I think his recovery will be much more exploited in the next months, and he will find horrible MU's, where he will suffer the L.Mac curse offstage.

: Top/High: Bad neutral game, but with a lot of death combos and hard punishes (WT), she can afford it.
: High tier. I think it will suffer with bad MU's when everybody lab how to edge-guard him so good as Mr.R did with Sheik.

: Mid tier. Solid character: as Pit, as Falcon.
I think it can win minor tourneys, some locals, even take great positions at majors. But they just showed nothing amazing alongside the counter to argue. Good neutral, some combo potential, but at least need more to be discovered at this point.

 

personally im enjoying my $ tiers - so its nice to see some fresh wind in the tournament scene

 

I like the DLC characters as a whole, but I think Mewtwo, Lucas, and Roy could use a bit more attention.

 

This is all well and good but you're forgetting one very important thing. You should not have to pay for DLC. Ever. It is a line in the sand no one should cross. By offering these low prices on DLC they are aiming to manipulate and convince you that it is not a big deal to pay extra specifically because the price is so low. You end up believing what you've posted here. You end up paying a few extra dollars when you don't really have to and you feel like that should be the norm or that its acceptable. That is exactly what they wanted. To make it acceptable in society to pay the extra pointless fee so they could take your money.

Don't buy into paid DLC and don't support it. It is cancer.

Sure. It's not like the people who work for months making this need to put food on their tables or something. Tell you what, try working for free for a month and tell me how that goes.

Cancer is a disease that kills people. This is a system to enhance gameplay well beyond what was originally put out. Two very different things.

Furthermore, the DLC is something they are under no obligation to make, and we are under no obligation to use. But it enhances the overall game experience, from a casual and competitive perspective, which is why nearly all tournaments mandate having DLC characters. They are under no obligation to offer patches either, but they do so anyway to enhance the gameplay experience of the players [unless you'd like Diddy Kong able to airdodge out of every combo ever and killing people at 90, Sheik true combo dthrow uairing everyone not Diddy Kong for KOs, and Luma respawning every 8 seconds (or whatever it used to be)]. And those patches are all free themselves.

You seem to have some extremely dubious axioms about games should work and make questionable claims because of them. DLC is an add-on, not included in the game for whatever reason. In the case of Cloud/Bayonetta/Corrin, the reason is crystal-clear - they could have held the smash ballot and delayed the game's release until this February [that's over a year and a half], or they could release the game when it's complete [which it was at 1.0.0], then update it periodically and ask for feedback about what other characters people want to see.

In doing so, they have to expand a fair bit of energy to build every single one of those characters and balance them around 50+ other characters [3.0 PM Mewtwo took over 600 hours to create from scratch, and he was also not well-balanced]. I imagine Nintendo can make them somewhat more quickly with a larger staff and not having to hack stuff, but I can imagine a similar time commitment [which is why we wait months for these characters].

You're telling me to expect them to give us 7 bonus characters [plus new stages] for free? To do this for people they've never met, many of whom angrily hurl expletives and even threats at them for not making the game exactly as they want it?

Grow up.

I feel like I want to keep this since it is a great response towards the people who malign all kinds of DLC.

 

And here i am still rooting for Roy expecting him to some day win a big tournament.

I have my hopes on you Sethlon!