Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Cutie Gwen]

Does it help that the whole style of the game is different? These and more characters are played much differently.

Not really, Ganondorf (Christ, he's a perfect example of everything today) stayed pretty much the same but is much better here than in Brawl

Well, three of Pit's specials were changed, in addition to the fact that the only special that remains the same as it is in Brawl, i.e. his arrows, function very differently.

He just plays very differently.

EDIT: 'd by the pretty foxy lady~
Outside of customs, how do the arrows function differently? A friend of mine mains Pit and he couldn't tell the difference


He really isn't.

Melee Marth is a spacing god that wrecks fools in footsies.

Roy is a super-aggro rushdown fighter that wrecks fools in advantage.

Just to clarify, I don't care much for either side of this debate, I just love to play devil's advocate~ :3

Outside of customs, how do the arrows function differently? A friend of mine mains Pit and he couldn't tell the difference
He plays closest to Marth's old playstyle out of all characters. Nerf Roy hard. Make him the worst FE character, not Ike, the best and most popular FE character

 

[Zelbur]

The fact that his side-b transitioned from a spinning reflector ring of flurry damage to Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost that also happens to have a reflector effect is a pretty big change.

That's on par with your example of Pit's bow being changed to a club.



No he doesn't.

The two play totally differently.

His recovery is way different also.

 

[Wintropy]

I do not believe so. Pit uses his bow for pretty much all of his normals, so changing it to a club would influence all of his normals. That is just one special.

Fair point.

Still doesn't change the fact that Pit's moveset was majorly overhauled in the transition from Brawl to 4.

Outside of customs, how do the arrows function differently? A friend of mine mains Pit and he couldn't tell the difference

His arrows had better duration and could be more freely controlled.

He plays closest to Marth's old playstyle out of all characters. Nerf Roy hard. Make him the worst FE character, not Ike, the best and most popular FE character

He doesn't.

Marth plays closest to Marth's old playstyle out of all characters.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And to think all of this started when I just said some people would like YLink in the future even with TLink back.

.....I honestly do hope that YLink returns in the next game with a Melee/MM moveset. That way, this whole debate will finally come to an end.

Not really. No reason to put him in and people will want characters they don't like to get cut. Besides, Ridley debate is over because Sakurai said no amiright?

 

[JaidynReiman]

And to think all of this started when I just said some people would like YLink in the future even with TLink back.

.....I honestly do hope that YLink returns in the next game with a Mele/MM moveset. That way, this whole debate will finally come to an end.

Don't worry. He won't.

 

[Zelbur]

Not really, Ganondorf (Christ, he's a perfect example of everything today) stayed pretty much the same but is much better here than in Brawl

Yeah, Ganondorf is pretty much the same, but there are other characters that have had major revamps and moveset changes.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Roy's situation is a lot different because in Melee, he has a major difference in moveset with Marth and Brawl redid Marth to where if Roy was bright back and declone they would be insanely separated. Plus there's the aesthetic difference they both have that makes them different. YLink like we said, has the same green tunic, hat and design like all the Links and whatever he brought TLink does. You need to straight declone him to where he has a original moveset and shares almost nothing with both Links and that won't happen for a while

Yeah, but the key thing here is that he had new changed moves to accompany his inclusion.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Fair point.

Still doesn't change the fact that Pit's moveset was majorly overhauled in the transition from Brawl to 4.



His arrows had better duration and could be more freely controlled.



He doesn't.

Marth plays closest to Marth's old playstyle out of all characters.

I don't remember Marth feeling this sluggish in Brawl, nor do I remember him being more ground-based

 

[AEMehr]

I think Toon Link over Young Link is more of a design choice than anything else really.

I mean in Melee the Zelda characters were designed to be from Ocarina of Time, so the quick Young Link clone makes sense. In the past two/three Smashes the core Zelda cast is designed as if they came straight out of Twilight Princess, a title in which Young Link does not appear in. So as opposed to redesigning the character like they did with Sheik, they scrapped Young Link altogether in favor of Toon Link for what I would imagine is more creative freedom on top of having more Zelda worlds represented.

I mean I would imagine a Young Link would probably utilize the same exact fighting style as an Older Link (Like in Melee). Toon Link is a different person entirely: and in turn feels much floatier, his projectiles have incredibly different properties, and his lack of long limbs even allows for a couple unique attacks. Toon Link is probably the most varied Link they could have chosen to make the two characters different enough from each other without making them completely different characters.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, but the key thing here is that he had new changed moves to accompany his inclusion.

Well yeah but you have to remember that Roy had a very strong following and, while the changes turned out to be quite dynamic for his moveset, he wasn't changed to the extent that he's unrecognisable.

Young Link's mask transformations is a clever idea and I'd love to see it happen, but it would really change the character into something else entirely. He wouldn't be Young Link then, he'd just be a transformation character wearing Young Link's flayed skin.

I don't remember Marth feeling this sluggish in Brawl, nor do I remember him being more ground-based

I don't know what Marth you're playing, in that case.

 

[Ura]

I don't want to go in circles here. I already said my piece. Whether it be popular or unpopular, i'll continue to support YLink even if the odds of him returning are slim.

 

[Morbi]

I don't remember Marth feeling this sluggish in Brawl, nor do I remember him being more ground-based

Um... and Roy isn't? Melee Marth is Melee Marth. Nobody on this roster plays like him, but I agree with Wintropy, Marth himself most closely resembles Marth.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I don't want to go in circles here. I already said my piece. Whether it be popular or unpopular, i'll continue to support YLink even if the odds of him returning are slim.

Although I'm never going to be convinced Yink has more than 0% chance, I'll admit. This was a relatively fun debate

 

[Morbi]

Although I'm never going to be convinced Yink has more than 0% chance, I'll admit. This was a relatively fun debate

It is not much of a debate if you are not willing to listen to the other side and change your perspective. I mean, you as well as I know that no Nintendo character has a 0% chance. Least of all a veteran.

0.001% is fairly reasonable.

 

[Champ Gold]

Yeah, but the key thing here is that he had new changed moves to accompany his inclusion.

Even then, his changes aren't drastic either. The biggest changes are his normals like ha F-Smash, F-tilt, Up-Tilt, D-Air, Dash Attack and animations. What I'm saying for YLink is straight drastic to the point where rarely anything similar towards the other Links. I mean redoing specials, normals, grabs, aerials and final smash.

What I want from TLink is making him a newcomer in a moveset style. AKA what people are asking for Ganondorf

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It is not much of a debate if you are not willing to listen to the other side and change your perspective. I mean, you as well as I know that no Nintendo character has a 0% chance. Least of all a veteran.

0.001% is fairly reasonable.

Then we should call the Ridley Debate the Big Hissyfit

 

[Zerp]

Would returning as a alt with different hurtboxes for be a satisfactory compromise for both sides? I've always wondered how many other people weren't OK with the character himself returning but would happily welcome a alt.

 

[Morbi]

Then we should call the Ridley Debate the Big Hissyfit

Well played.

I never thought that Young Link would be so controversial to be honest. Most people used to believe that he DID have a zero percent chance; however, if I have discerned anything from these committed responses, it is that some people are actually worried that Young Link might return.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Well yeah but you have to remember that Roy had a very strong following and, while the changes turned out to be quite dynamic for his moveset, he wasn't changed to the extent that he's unrecognisable.

Young Link's mask transformations is a clever idea and I'd love to see it happen, but it would really change the character into something else entirely. He wouldn't be Young Link then, he'd just be a transformation character wearing Young Link's flayed skin.



I don't know what Marth you're playing, in that case.

Him having a following wouldn't be a reason he would have his moves changed.
I will agree that the moves won't be drastically changed, as YL will probably keep the same play style. But you can still change some moves that would keep him the same projectile based play-style. For example you could change YL's N-Air into him turning into a rolling Goron (like Sonic's neutral air) or change his F-Smash into him into a Zora with him slashing his fins and it wouldn't change the main play style as long as the functions of the special moves remain the same.

 

[Aetheri]

I would say Shiek Charizard and Zamus have had major moveset changes.....

Edit: Shiek has 2 new moves, Zamus has 1 and so does Charizard

ZSS had two changes btw...

----

Either way should Sakurai add Ylink the only changes I can see him making is giving him a slingshot instead of the bow...

 

[Twin Shot]

Just give Young Link Masks as Stat Changers like Shulk and bypass the transformation thing.

 

[APC99]

While we're on the topic of "clones", I've been thinking about the two introduced in this game, Lucina and Edgy Pit. Looking into their in-game counterparts, one thing I hope to see is, eventually (Smash V would work) give the two new moves and semi-clone status, like Lucas / Roy / Falco / Ganon.

For Lucina, I think her N-Special should become Attack Stance, kind of like PM Lucas' Offense Up in design. Then, her Side Special is Astra, making the combo automatic, but still able to change direction. Up Special is now Aether, where inputting once in-air, acts like Dolphin Slash, with a second tap of the button performing a meteor strike attack (It'd basically be a faster, chargeless version of the Mii Swordfighter's Airborne Assault on ground). Down Special, Aegis Counter, takes half-damage, and then deals the other half to the opponent with the original's full knockback. Maybe a new final smash based off of the Awakening event in, well, Awakening, with a giant beam of light bursting down upon her a la Entei.

As for Dark Pit, he gets sweetspots at the hilt of his dual blades, like PM Pit. I'd also make the Electroshock a simple uppercut that helps recover when in mid-air, but same in ground. His Down Special changes into Archangel Ring, a.k.a. Pit's old Side Special. It reflects projectiles and has multi-hit capabilities, but leaves him open from behind.

But of course, this is slightly off-topic, let's continue beating dead horses like the Young vs. Toon debate, shall we?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Him having a following wouldn't be a reason he would have his moves changed.
I will agree that the moves won't be drastically changed, as YL will probably keep the same play style. But you can still change some moves that would keep him the same projectile based play-style. For example you could change YL's N-Air into him turning into a rolling Goron (like Sonic's neutral air) or change his F-Smash into him into a Zora with him slashing his fins and it wouldn't change the main play style as long as the functions of the special moves remain the same.

Laggy af moves confirmed. Yink confirmed 'Garbador's god in comparison' tier

 

[Wintropy]

Him having a following wouldn't be a reason he would have his moves changed.

I know.

It's an incentive for Sakurai to bring him back, which would facilitate a change of moves in itself.

I will agree that the moves won't be drastically changed, as YL will probably keep the same play style. But you can still change some moves that would keep him the same projectile based play-style. For example you could change YL's N-Air into him turning into a rolling Goron (like Sonic's neutral air) or change his F-Smash into him into a Zora with him slashing his fins and it wouldn't change the main play style as long as the functions of the special moves remain the same.

I honestly feel that is just shoehorning differences in to justify the character's return.

Which, to be frank, is a classic example of "protests too much", methinks.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It isn't meant to justify his return. The real reason YL would be brought back is to appeal to the fans and mains who want them back.

 

[Morbi]

ZSS had two changes btw...

----

Either way should Sakurai add Ylink the only changes I can see him making is giving him a slingshot instead of the bow...

I would be salty if he did that, Young Link is apparently the only Smash Link smart enough to use magic arrows. Even with customs. Why take that away? Plus it would take away from our girl Villager, she is the true slingshot master.

I do not anticipate a lot of changes at all really, he would probably just reflect Adult Link rather than Toon Link. So the dash attack, b-air, d-air and n-air of adult Link.

 

[Wintropy]

It isn't meant to justify his return. The real reason YL would be brought back is to appeal to the fans and mains who want them back.

Yes

But

You miss the bit where Sakurai essentially said that Toon Link is Young Link.

You will have to justify why Young Link is a different character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

When was the last time we debated about the same subject for so long? The 'IC but 3 at a time' thing, right?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

If anyone wants I can decode(hack) and see if theres any upcoming events

*in Cartman's voice* Do it.

 

[Morbi]

Yes

But

You miss the bit where Sakurai essentially said that Toon Link is Young Link.

You will have to justify why Young Link is a different character.

That is easy enough. He is objectively a different character. Honestly, the burden of proof is directed at the party who believes they are the same character. Unless Sakurai actually states that Toon Link is Young Link. "Essentially" is not good enough for me.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

We need poofy hair Link, he's the original and most recurring Link and represents the entirety of the "Hyrule's Decline and The Last Hero" timeline.

Spoiler

 

[A Distant Demon]

If you're playing melee marth like you play Smash 4 Roy you are probably playing BOTH wrong. . .

 

[Champ Gold]

While we're on the topic of "clones", I've been thinking about the two introduced in this game, Lucina and Edgy Pit. Looking into their in-game counterparts, one thing I hope to see is, eventually (Smash V would work) give the two new moves and semi-clone status, like Lucas / Roy / Falco / Ganon.

For Lucina, I think her N-Special should become Attack Stance, kind of like PM Lucas' Offense Up in design. Then, her Side Special is Astra, making the combo automatic, but still able to change direction. Up Special is now Aether, where inputting once in-air, acts like Dolphin Slash, with a second tap of the button performing a meteor strike attack (It'd basically be a faster, chargeless version of the Mii Swordfighter's Airborne Assault on ground). Down Special, Aegis Counter, takes half-damage, and then deals the other half to the opponent with the original's full knockback. Maybe a new final smash based off of the Awakening event in, well, Awakening, with a giant beam of light bursting down upon her a la Entei.

As for Dark Pit, he gets sweetspots at the hilt of his dual blades, like PM Pit. I'd also make the Electroshock a simple uppercut that helps recover when in mid-air, but same in ground. His Down Special changes into Archangel Ring, a.k.a. Pit's old Side Special. It reflects projectiles and has multi-hit capabilities, but leaves him open from behind.

But of course, this is slightly off-topic, let's continue beating dead horses like the Young vs. Toon debate, shall we?

My changes for Lucina is making her faster and lighter than Marth and giving her some of her custom moves like Iai Counter, Effortless Blade and Neutral B doesn't break shields but can still damage it and is a multi hit move. Make her more combo based like her moves having less lag on aerials and change her neutral Binto an Aether but doesn't bring her upward. It just spins her and can KO at high percentages.

As for other characters

: Warlock Punch is now a ground pound like Ike's eruption.
Nair is similar to Mewtwo's
Up Air is a sword slash
New Up Smash
Buffed Movement.
He can float for a small while but his Up-B recovery is still the same

: New Fair animation
Side-B has an electric effect (kinda like Fox's reflector)


: New Side-B Light Speed Attack (Just like Fox and Falco's Illusion but with better knockback)
F-Smash is a Roundhouse kick

: Dair is his butt stomp from the WL games
Dash attack is his shoulder bash


: Side B can be cancelled into an Up-B for better recovery options
KO Meter can also boost special attacks while having the meter up, however can easily lose it as well. But it you have to attack for the meter to build up.
Up-B can arc like Roy's but only in the air.

 

[Wintropy]

That is easy enough. He is objectively a different character. Honestly, the burden of proof is directed at the party who believes they are the same character. Unless Sakurai actually states that Toon Link is Young Link. "Essentially" is not good enough for me.

Hey, you don't have to tell me twice. I really don't care either way.

But you're gonna have to convince Sakurai of that.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I would say Shiek Charizard and Zamus have had major moveset changes.....

Edit: Shiek has 2 new moves, Zamus has 1 and so does Charizard

'Zard actually has 2 new moves, at the very least, not counting customs; Flare Blitz and his Final Smash.

 

[Talpr1]

Doesn't Charizard have a different F-air in Brawl?

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

That is easy enough. He is objectively a different character. Honestly, the burden of proof is directed at the party who believes they are the same character. Unless Sakurai actually states that Toon Link is Young Link. "Essentially" is not good enough for me.

They fill the same exact role; "smaller, quicker Link clone". Young Link just had Fire Arrows, while Toon Link doesn't; but Tink has much more different from Link than Young Link did.

That seems like a replacement to me.
It's like saying Pichu wouldn't be a clone of Pikachu because of his attributes and that he isn't the same Pokemon; he's still the same character, just in an earlier phase of it's evolution. Not to mention Pichu was only in Melee because Gen 2 was recent, and they wanted to advertise it. The best chance Pichu had was to get back in Brawl because of HeartGold/SoulSilver, and he didn't get in then.

 

[Morbi]

Hey, you don't have to tell me twice. I really don't care either way.

But you're gonna have to convince Sakurai of that.

I did not need to convince Sakurai about Dark Pit or Dr. Mario.

Honestly, when it comes down to it, Young Link is a plausible veteran and most of the DLC characters we have recieved thus far have been veterans. Some of which were fairly low effort. Sakurai stated that if the character functions differently, they deserve their own character slot. Young Link DOES function differently than Toon Link. So the crux of the issue is whether or not he would even consider Young Link.

I believe most people skip that step and just assume that Young Link was replaced by Toon Link and that he is not a viable option. However, the circumstances of Toon Link's inclusion in Brawl beg to differ that sentiment and sort of imply that he percieves the two as different entities. But I do not speak for him.

 

[Wintropy]

I did not need to convince Sakurai about Dark Pit or Dr. Mario.

Honestly, when it comes down to it, Young Link is a plausible veteran and most of the DLC characters we have recieved thus far have been veterans. Some of which were fairly low effort. Sakurai stated that if the character functions differently, they deserve their own character slot. Young Link DOES function differently than Toon Link. So the crux of the issue is whether or not he would even consider Young Link.

I believe most people skip that step and just assume that Young Link was replaced by Toon Link and that he is not a viable option. However, the circumstances of Toon Link's inclusion in Brawl beg to differ that sentiment and sort of imply that he percieves the two as different entities. But I do not speak for him.

I asked PushDustin for clarification, because honestly, I'm curious myself.

The Doc / Pittoo point is good, because it demonstrates just how idiosyncratic Sakurai's rationale behind character design is. He reckons Doc is distinct enough to be his own character (I agree, but that's neither here nor there), yet he conflates Ridley from Other M with Ridley from every other Metroid game, when canonically the former is a clone of the latter.

Maybe it does just come down to what "role" they fulfill. For all we know, Sakurai just thinks Toon Link is the same thing as Young Link in terms of role, i.e. a faster, smaller Link.

Conversely, Doc wasn't replaced by anybody to fill in the slower, heavier Mario design, so he brought Doc back for that purpose. Pittoo is an anomaly, this is the first time there's been a Pit clone in the roster, ergo it's impossible to comment absolutely on that concept.

If, hypothetically speaking, Sakurai added Foreman Spike as a slower, heavier Mario, I doubt we'd see Doc return. That's total speculation, but that's my opinion and, until evidence to the contrary is duly provided, I stand by it.

 

[False Sense]

Young Link discussion again, huh?

Personally, I think that when you get down to it, there's not a strong enough incentive to bring back Young Link. You can debate all you want about mask transformations, other clones, and what he represents, but at a fundamental level, Young Link is a clone that is nearly identical in concept to another character on the roster that lacks a significant amount of demand. Sure, he has his fans, but it's a small crowd, especially when compared to the fans of characters like Mewtwo, Roy, and Lucas. He'd be appealing mostly to a niche fanbase, and as such, is not an optimal choice for DLC.