Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[YoshiandToad]

I just realized that both Isaac and Gust Bellows push characters off the stage... could it be the reason why Isaac wasn't included as AT?

No.

...

...


...oh fine, I'll expand on that.

They may have the same end result but the way they function is different enough to not need exclusion of one for the other.

For example; even though Gust Bellows is an item in game that pushes the enemy off stage and the Drill is an item in game that pushes the enemy off stage, the two are rather different in how they operate, both of which in turn operate differently from Isaac's AT. Similarly Waluigi happily co-exists alongside the Pitfall item despite both items burying the opponent into the ground.

It's obviously speculation on my part(there's no official word on this as far as I'm aware) but that the two items have the same end result would be a pretty asinine reason to exclude what was considered one of, if not THE most popular Assist Trophy.

 

[FalKoopa]

An item cannot replace a character. It makes even less sense as some assist trophies and pokémon share their effects.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

No.

...

...


...oh fine, I'll expand on that.

They may have the same end result but the way they function is different enough to not need exclusion of one for the other.

For example; even though Gust Bellows is an item in game that pushes the enemy off stage and the Drill is an item in game that pushes the enemy off stage, the two are rather different in how they operate, both of which in turn operate differently from Isaac's AT. Similarly Waluigi happily co-exists alongside the Pitfall item despite both items burying the opponent into the ground.

It's obviously speculation on my part(there's no official word on this as far as I'm aware) but that the two items have the same end result would be a pretty asinine reason to exclude what was considered one of, if not THE most popular Assist Trophy.

Yes, I agree... I was just trying to think a reason for Isaac's removal, and I though that one would be more valid reason than "Sakurai forgot Golden Sun". I guess there might not even be a reason for it's removal...

 

[Aetheri]

Kyogre pretty much does the same thing as well...

It may have been possible that Isaac's assist trophy was cut simply to make room for other assists...while yes characters like Waluigi Lyn and Samurai Goroh have made a reappearance as assists there's also a lot that was added as well, and Isaac just happened to make the shortlist...same is true for poke ball summons (rip weavile and scizor)...

 

[YoshiandToad]

I'll stick my neck out on the line on this one. I'm fully prepared to get it lopped off here.

I have a theory;

Isaac physically aged in the latest game. Unable to make a decision between making Isaac in his classic Brawl AT look or updating the AT to reflect Dark Dawn's look, Sakurai decided to just scrap it instead of tackling that headache.

Either that or he was considered at some point seriously for a roster placement and then pushed(ha) aside for other characters to be completed first.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm still really hoping to see Isaac as a playable character. He has just as much potential to be as unique as King K.Rool, and it's only because of my intense love for Donkey Kong Country that I slightly prefer the King over the Adept. I honestly really, really want to see both. And have Dixie Kong and Impa as semi-clone extras.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Kyogre pretty much does the same thing as well...

It may have been possible that Isaac's assist trophy was cut simply to make room for other assists...while yes characters like Waluigi Lyn and Samurai Goroh have made a reappearance as assists there's also a lot that was added as well, and Isaac just happened to make the shortlist...same is true for poke ball summons (rip weavile and scizor)...

Don't forget Manaphy. I loved heart swap.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Oh boy, the old casuals are voting for something different routine.

1. Where is your proof? Where is your gosh darn proof? I keep hearing this garbage but if they know about the ballot' chances are they know about some of the characters suggested whenever it's brought up like Isaac, K.Rool, Shantae, etc.
2.if they aren't voting for a character the hardcore deems popular, then who are they voting for? No one has an answer and its all vague, "we don't know" statements. It's not meant as a serious point. This is meant to put everyone on an even playing field. I'll bet you a lot of these people's tune would change if their most wanted was popular on fan polls.
3.Youre forgetting that several of the popular characters are million sellers. For example, Donkey Kong Country is like the fifth best selling franchise of all time. Pretty sure it would spark casual interest.
4. Most of these people shouting this are the "the ballot is a suggestion box" people. Which is it folks?

I really don't like this line of thinking.

 

[Crimson23]

I think Bandana Dee works best.
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sn7vrv

 

[Diddy Kong]

I think there's a good chance that 'casuals' to would vote for highly popular characters as Dixie Kong, Toad, Impa, Bandana Dee and veterans as Ice Climbers and Snake. I also don't think that King K.Rool and Isaac are "internet fads only" as some people like to describe them. Golden Sun has a legit fanbase. I expect many people who played both GBA games and Brawl to have voted Isaac on the ballot. King K.Rool also cannot possibly be a unpopular choice due to the fact that the SNES DKC triology is just pure gold recreated in pixels controlled by a gamepad.

"Casual" doesn't automatically mean "ignorant" either. However, I do expect that "relevance" might play a bit more of an issue for the casual voters, because these characters are more on their minds. It's logical to assume that most Ballot voters are owners of a Wii U, or a 3DS. That's why I picked characters as Dixie, Toad, Impa, and Bandana Dee before others, as I simply think they are characters that both the casuals and "hardcore" fanbase would vote for.

But who knows, it might be a Sonic character that is topping the ballot since day 1

 

[Kenith]

Oh boy, the old casuals are voting for something different routine.

1. Where is your proof? Where is your gosh darn proof? I keep hearing this garbage but if they know about the ballot' chances are they know about some of the characters suggested whenever it's brought up like Isaac, K.Rool, Shantae, etc.
2.if they aren't voting for a character the hardcore deems popular, then who are they voting for? No one has an answer and its all vague, "we don't know" statements. It's not meant as a serious point. This is meant to put everyone on an even playing field. I'll bet you a lot of these people's tune would change if their most wanted was popular on fan polls.
3.Youre forgetting that several of the popular characters are million sellers. For example, Donkey Kong Country is like the fifth best selling franchise of all time. Pretty sure it would spark casual interest.
4. Most of these people shouting this are the "the ballot is a suggestion box" people. Which is it folks?

I really don't like this line of thinking.

I am pretty sure that unless you count it as part of Mario, Donkey Kong Country is FAR from 5th best selling video game franchise.

 

[Schnee117]

I am pretty sure that unless you count it as part of Mario, Donkey Kong Country is FAR from 5th best selling video game franchise.

Probably meant 5th best selling Nintendo franchise.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I think there's a good chance that 'casuals' to would vote for highly popular characters as Dixie Kong, Toad, Impa, Bandana Dee and veterans as Ice Climbers and Snake.

Bandana Dee and Impa over King K Rool? He might be old, but the fans that I know, who would be considered "casual" really like the guy since he was part of their childhood. Dee and Impa aren't as well known to the fans of the more classic games.

Dixie Kong, (Captain) Toad, King K Rool, Ice Climbers, Snake, Inkling, and Wolf would be names on a casual fan's ballot.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I am pretty sure that unless you count it as part of Mario, Donkey Kong Country is FAR from 5th best selling video game franchise.

Probably meant 5th best selling Nintendo franchise.

Yeah I meant this, my bad.

 

[YoshiandToad]

2.if they aren't voting for a character the hardcore deems popular, then who are they voting for? No one has an answer and its all vague, "we don't know" statements. It's not meant as a serious point. This is meant to put everyone on an even playing field. I'll bet you a lot of these people's tune would change if their most wanted was popular on fan polls.
3.Youre forgetting that several of the popular characters are million sellers. For example, Donkey Kong Country is like the fifth best selling franchise of all time. Pretty sure it would spark casual interest.
4. Most of these people shouting this are the "the ballot is a suggestion box" people. Which is it folks?

I really don't like this line of thinking.

2. Toad. They are voting for Toad(hopefully). They are correct to do this. Why the hell are YOU LOT not voting for Toad? You're all objectively wrong for not doing this. I'm disappointed in all of you. Foreshame on you all.

Logically though the answer would be; totally random.
I've seen a lot of fan support from everyone from Shadow the Hedgehog(Second Sonic characters seem to get a lot of Miiverse support for example, which I guess can be classified as more casual than Smashboards) to Goku(unfeasible), to every Mario character(particularly Daisy actually), to Minecraft Steve(also unfeasible) to Freddy Fazbear(also unfeasible).

Obviously there will be overlap with the 'hardcore' audience, because characters like Wolf(due to Brawl), Inklings, Dixie Kong, Wonder Red, Bayonetta etc have been played recently by these casual and young audience members so the characters will be fresh in their minds.

3. DK(C) is top five Nintendo series which I think you meant there and for the most part I agree with this...only I think Dixie probably does better with the casual audience than the king does.

Between the fact I doubt many of the casual DK audience actually got to the end of these pretty rock hard platformers, Dixie making a more recent appearance in Tropical Freeze and Dixie getting marginally more exposure through toy merchandise than the king, I feel they'd probably swing more towards the female chimp than the fat croc.

But obviously this is opinions and since casuals are less likely to write down who they voted for than the Smashboards going community, it's harder to nail down who they'd choose. That's my speculation on this situation regarding these enigmatic 'casuals'.

Because that's all ANY of us can do at the end of the day; speculate. Let's face facts; we can't even answer point "4." because no one freaking knows. There's no official statement so it could be down to sheer votes or it could be a suggestion box.

None of us know. None of us.

Edit: 'd; you did mean that on .3

 

[Scamper52596]

Just to be clear, my original argument was never about what the more casual fanbase was voting for on the ballot if they even were voting at all. I feel like my original point got lost somewhere along the line. The point I was trying to make is that many characters that are popular on Internet forums such as this one likely won't appeal to a majority of the audience that plays this game; therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if many of said popular characters don't end up becoming playable via DLC. That's it.

It's an expectations kind of thing, and I want to keep mine in check. I'm not expecting only the bigger names to make it in solely because they're the most popular according to Internet polls. I'm not expecting very unpopular choices to make it either. Quite frankly I'm not exactly sure what to expect at this point, and that's what makes me very excited to see what DLC characters might come next. All I'm saying is that I believe the next 'fanservice' DLC characters are going to be carefully picked so that they can appeal to both the hardcore audience and the more casual audience, which I firmly believe that some of the popular characters on Smashboards don't do. If anything based on what kind of DLC has been released thus far, this is what I feel I should expect.

 

[False Sense]

All I'm saying is that I believe the next 'fanservice' DLC characters are going to be carefully picked so that they can appeal to both the hardcore audience and the more casual audience, which I firmly believe that some of the popular characters on Smashboards don't do.

Now how exactly does (or doesn't) a character appeal to both audiences?

 

[BKupa666]

I feel as though "casuals are voting" is an attempt to keep "relevant," relevant. No one takes "relevant" on its own seriously anymore thanks to K. Rool and Isaac topping the polls, plus future-less characters like Lucas and Roy showing up. As such, people have changed their language to "casuals are voting" because they can then sneakily imply the fallacious "casuals will only vote for relevant characters" assumption without being called on it.

 

[BluePikmin11]

A lot of people on YouTube in the comments generally have 3rd parties, it's pretty rare to see someone like King K. Rool, Isaac, or Bandanna Dee pop up there.

 

[False Sense]

A lot of people on YouTube in the comments generally have 3rd parties, it's pretty rare to see someone like King K. Rool, Isaac, or Bandanna Dee pop up there.

Are Youtube comments really a good measure of character popularity/votes?

 

[BluePikmin11]

No I just like to bring it up, seems like a nice example of a website generally voting for someone not being Isaac, Dee, and K. Rool a portion of notable casual votes.
I'd imagine Twitter would be the same thing.

 

[Kenith]

Are Youtube comments really a good measure of character popularity/votes?

Nothing is a really good measure of popularity/votes to be fair.

 

[False Sense]

No I just like to bring it up, seems like a nice example of a website generally voting for someone not being Isaac, Dee, and K. Rool a portion of notable casual votes.
I'd imagine Twitter would be the same thing.

Thing is, how can you be sure that's the general consensus there? There's no poll or any real statistical analysis of the public opinion there, it's just looking at a sample of comments and drawing conclusions from that. That's just not a strong example.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Oh boy, the old casuals are voting for something different routine.

1. Where is your proof? Where is your gosh darn proof? I keep hearing this garbage but if they know about the ballot' chances are they know about some of the characters suggested whenever it's brought up like Isaac, K.Rool, Shantae, etc.
2.if they aren't voting for a character the hardcore deems popular, then who are they voting for? No one has an answer and its all vague, "we don't know" statements. It's not meant as a serious point. This is meant to put everyone on an even playing field. I'll bet you a lot of these people's tune would change if their most wanted was popular on fan polls.
3.Youre forgetting that several of the popular characters are million sellers. For example, Donkey Kong Country is like the fifth best selling franchise of all time. Pretty sure it would spark casual interest.
4. Most of these people shouting this are the "the ballot is a suggestion box" people. Which is it folks?

I really don't like this line of thinking.

Donkey Kong Country is the fifth best selling Nintendo franchise of all time. There are more than five 100m selling franchises and DKC hasn't hit that yet (its still pretty damn good, though, around 65m, with Zelda only about 10m more).


Otherwise, totally agreed with everything you've stated.

 

[Kenith]

Donkey Kong Country is the fifth best selling Nintendo franchise of all time. There are more than five 100m selling franchises and DKC hasn't hit that yet (its still pretty damn good, though, around 65m, with Zelda only about 10m more).
Otherwise, totally agreed with everything you've stated.

Wait, DKC has only 10mil more copies sold than the Zelda series?
Why has it only two characters?

 

[Scamper52596]

Now how exactly does (or doesn't) a character appeal to both audiences?

In my honest opinion, the best example I can think of is K. Rool VS Dixie Kong.

General recognizability is a big factor here as to what I feel makes a character appeal to both audiences. K. Rool is an older character who really hasn't been in any main series Donkey Kong game in quite some time. Because of that his design might throw many people off who don't realize he's actually a Donkey Kong character. Meanwhile Dixie Kong is a character who has made recent appearances in her franchise and looks similar to Diddy so there's no question as to what franchise she originates from. Not to mention she starred in her own game at one point. Because of this, more people will make an immediate connection to Dixie Kong when viewing the available DLC characters. What also makes her the better choice is that most K. Rool fans will be fine with her inclusion because a lot of them just want to see a new DK character in general join the roster because it's definitely overdue, while K. Rool will be a harder sell to most of the casual crowd who outnumber the hardcore crowd. For this reason I think that Dixie Kong is a way safer choice when it comes to DLC because she appeals to both audiences, and that's why I think K. Rool was chosen to be a Mii Fighter costume. We obviously don't know for sure whether or not Donkey Kong will get a DLC character, but if it does I'm expecting Dixie Kong over K. Rool at this point.

 

[False Sense]

Wait, DKC has only 10mil more copies sold than the Zelda series?
Why has it only two characters?

What every Donkey Kong fan has been saying for years.

 

[~Krystal~]

Wait, DKC has only 10mil more copies sold than the Zelda series?
Why has it only two characters?

I'm actually more surprised there hasn't been an assist trophy by now. You would think there would at least be that.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Wait, DKC has only 10mil more copies sold than the Zelda series?
Why has it only two characters?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_game_franchises


My mistake, its actually 20m. DKC is around 56m and Zelda is 73m. I probably made this mistake because VGChartz says "65m" if you search for "Donkey Kong."


Its still closer than most people would think. You'd think Zelda is a 100m seller but its actually not. Its still very good, of course.

 

[Talpr1]

A lot of people on YouTube in the comments generally have 3rd parties, it's pretty rare to see someone like King K. Rool, Isaac, or Bandanna Dee pop up there.

Assuming that YT is a reliable measure of popularity, who is the most popular first-party character? Third-parties aside from Rayman and characters owned by Namco, Sega and Capcom are pretty unlikely for reasons everybody should know at this point, regardless of how much support they get.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Assuming that YT is a reliable measure of popularity, who is the most popular first-party character? Third-parties aside from Rayman and characters owned by Namco, Sega and Capcom are pretty unlikely for reasons everybody should know at this point, regardless of how much support they get.

YT?


If you mean new characters, assuming online polls, there's no question its King K. Rool. If it includes veterans Wolf probably edges him out slightly (and even then K. Rool still tops most online polls, probably because more people what newcomers as DLC).


The second varies more heavily, but Isaac tends to take that most often, with others being Inklings, Bandana Dee, Krystal, and Paper Mario.

I'm actually more surprised there hasn't been an assist trophy by now. You would think there would at least be that.

Assist Trophy is definitely an oddity.


As for newcomers, its justified why DK didn't get one until Brawl. The iffy situation during Melee because prevented any Rare characters from making it into the game. If it wasn't for the impending Rare buyout, we probably would've gotten both Diddy and Banjo and Kazooie. DK was definitely a top contender for two new characters in Brawl, but there were a lot of characters to pick from, and he planned to make Diddy and Dixie a tag-team, so that might've exhausted the resources for a second DK newcomer in Brawl. Plus, around that time there hadn't been a new main DK game in a long time, unless you count Jungle Beat, King of Swing, and Jungle Climber.

 

[False Sense]

In my honest opinion, the best example I can think of is K. Rool VS Dixie Kong.

General recognizability is a big factor here as to what I feel makes a character appeal to both audiences. K. Rool is an older character who really hasn't been in any main series Donkey Kong game in quite some time. Because of that his design might throw many people off who don't realize he's actually a Donkey Kong character. Meanwhile Dixie Kong is a character who has made recent appearances in her franchise and looks similar to Diddy so there's no question as to what franchise she originates from. Not to mention she starred in her own game at one point. Because of this, more people will make an immediate connection to Dixie Kong when viewing the available DLC characters. What also makes her the better choice is that most K. Rool fans will be fine with her inclusion because a lot of them just want to see a new DK character in general join the roster because it's definitely overdue, while K. Rool will be a harder sell to most of the casual crowd who outnumber the hardcore crowd. For this reason I think that Dixie Kong is a way safer choice when it comes to DLC because she appeals to both audiences, and that's why I think K. Rool was chosen to be a Mii Fighter costume. We obviously don't know for sure whether or not Donkey Kong will get a DLC character, but if it does I'm expecting Dixie Kong over K. Rool at this point.

I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

In regards to your point about casual fans knowing which series the character originates from... I don't see how that's much of a problem. Even if someone doesn't immediately know what series they're from, a simple check on the Smash website would clear that up quickly (assuming the reveal trailer didn't make it obvious enough already). The fact that she's more recognizable due to her most recent appearance is a fair point, but just looking like a Donkey Kong character? I don't see how that would really impact sales. You could even make the argument that Dixie resembling the DK characters on the roster would lower sales, as she has less to distinguish herself from the others and wouldn't stand out as much.

Also, I'm just going to say that I really think the hardcore crowd is the target audience with DLC. Just look at who we got already; characters like Roy and Lucas weren't added because of their widespread recognizability. Those characters were added specifically due to their high levels of popularity amongst the dedicated Smash fanbase. Even stage DLC consists mostly of retro stages that directly appeal to the nostalgia of longtime fans. And all that was added pre-ballot; now they have a direct source of info on who the fans want.

Basically, I think some people are overestimating the influence of "casual" players on DLC.

 

[BKupa666]

To address the tidbit of "casuals know of a character therefore that character is getting a lot of casual votes," that's true...for casual fans who know about the ballot and care enough to vote in it, who are also fans of that specific character within that specific series. Given exactly how many series there are for casuals to be fans of, not to mention many characters within each of those thousands of series, that's not a compelling reason to expect any individual character.

 

[Talpr1]

YT?

YouTube's comment section, which was brought up by BluePikmin.

 

[JaidynReiman]

YouTube's comment section, which was brought up by BluePikmin.

I'm blocking BluePikmin so I didn't see his comment.

I don't know who the most requested characters in YouTube comments are.

 

[Scamper52596]

I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree.

In regards to your point about casual fans knowing which series the character originates from... I don't see how that's much of a problem. Even if someone doesn't immediately know what series they're from, a simple check on the Smash website would clear that up quickly (assuming the reveal trailer didn't make it obvious enough already). The fact that she's more recognizable due to her most recent appearance is a fair point, but just looking like a Donkey Kong character? I don't see how that would really impact sales. You could even make the argument that Dixie resembling the DK characters on the roster would lower sales, as she has less to distinguish herself from the others and wouldn't stand out as much.

Also, I'm just going to say that I really think the hardcore crowd is the target audience with DLC. Just look at who we got already; characters like Roy and Lucas weren't added because of their widespread recognizability. Those characters were added specifically due to their high levels of popularity amongst the dedicated Smash fanbase. Even stage DLC consists mostly of retro stages that directly appeal to the nostalgia of longtime fans. And all that was added pre-ballot; now they have a direct source of info on who the fans want.

Basically, I think some people are overestimating the influence of "casual" players on DLC.

People like what they're familiar with. You see the DLC we've gotten so far as catering to the hardcore crowd; I see it as playing it extremely safe. Like I mentioned before, we've gotten three veterans with an iconic newcomer, and three retro stages with a new stage bundled with the new character to make him a more appealing sell. The pattern I see here is that this is all recognizable stuff that most people who have played Smash before should be more than familiar with. Likewise Dixie Kong is the more recognizable figure between the two, and I feel that more people would be inclined to make the purchase because of that.

 

[False Sense]

People like what they're familiar with. You see the DLC we've gotten so far as catering to the hardcore crowd; I see it as playing it extremely safe. Like I mentioned before, we've gotten three veterans with an iconic newcomer, and three retro stages with a new stage bundled with the new character to make him a more appealing sell. The pattern I see here is that this is all recognizable stuff that most people who have played Smash before should be more than familiar with. Likewise Dixie Kong is the more recognizable figure between the two, and I feel that more people would be inclined to make the purchase because of that.

I think this raises the question of where you draw the line between "hardcore" and "casual."

Are "casual" fans expected to have played through and be familiar with each installment of the Smash series? Are "casual" fans expected to be excited when content from the oldest games in the series is added through DLC? Are "casual" fans expected to care about the series and DLC that much?

 

[Putuk]

Why the hell are YOU LOT not voting for Toad?

 

[YoshiandToad]

10/10 reasoning. Good work.

 

[Scamper52596]

I think this raises the question of where you draw the line between "hardcore" and "casual."

Are "casual" fans expected to have played through and be familiar with each installment of the Smash series? Are "casual" fans expected to be excited when content from the oldest games in the series is added through DLC? Are "casual" fans expected to care about the series and DLC that much?

I'll just quote myself from a page back. When I say casual fans I'm talking about the fans of Smash who enjoy playing it, but just aren't following it as closely as we are. There are thousands upon thousands of Smash fans who are like this. They're familiar with and play all iterations of Smash. I'm sure there are lots of people who owned Brawl who are only playing the 3DS version right now. You also have to consider those who just got into the franchise with Smash 4 and love it. I'm not talking about the casuals who pick up and play the game for a week then don't play it for another 7 months if that's what you're thinking. I'm talking about the casuals who are still invested in the franchise, but not to the point where they're spending their time on the Internet keeping up with what everybody has to say about the series like we do. I'd still say that those kind of casual fans would care for what kind of DLC Nintendo might offer. At least care enough to check it out briefly, and if they see something that catches their eye there's a good chance they'll purchase it. And what I'm ultimately saying is that there's a better chance they'll purchase something that appeals to them. Such as a familiar veteran or character in general. You have to remember that in the end, Smash is still a franchise that's targeted to the casual fanbase as a fun party game that can be played by one's self or with friends. That's what makes up a majority of the franchise's install base.