Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Kirby Dragons]

Speaking of third parties, I love how Black Mage is rarely brought up...Ok irrelevant jokes aside, why is Black Mage not really talked about here?

That's something I often wonder myself.

Black Mage would make a good addition, as the only third-party character from an RPG, unique since he uses black magic, and he'd represent another somewhat major third-party character.

He has loads of ideas for moves, and generally, lots of things to draw from his series that could be good for items, an assist trophy, and a stage. If he got in, I'd hope for Lunar Core like it is in SSF2, that music is so epic. Not Black Mage's moveset though, it's pretty annoying.

I do think I recall hearing about Square Enix being strict about sharing their characters, which might answer your question.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Shantae is a not iconic indie third party who is not requested in Japan, she definitely doesn't have more chances than those characters, I don't even think she has chances at all.

Can you explain why do you think she is more likely than those characters, please?

I mean I'm going to be honest here, this is just my opinion on how I think Sakurai's brain is working on this. By no means do you have to agree with me.

My thoughts are that Sakurai will not find those characters to be viable in this edition of Smash.

For Waddle Dee, I think Sakurai considers him just a simple minor enemy much to how he can only consider Ridley
to be boss only material. You could argue that R.O.B. was the same way in Brawl, but he wasn't. R.O.B. was never fought against as a simple enemy in subspace as Waddle Dee is in Smash Run. When people who aren't familiar with the series think Kirby they think of the three already in Smash as playable characters. I think Sakurai feels the same way, and that he doesn't feel Waddle Dee needs to be playable. I think that if he found Bandana Dee, the specific Waddle Dee to be important to the series, he would already be featured in the game to some capacity.

Same goes for Isaac.
Where did his assist trophy go? Little Mac was made playable, and if he wanted Isaac to be playable, he would have had him be in the group of Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu. The fact that he didn't consider Isaac important enough to bring back as at least an assist makes me think Sakurai forgot about him. I feel we are more likely to see a DLC assist for Isaac before we seem him playable.

Inkling I just don't think is ready yet to be playable yet, and they have a better shot for Smash 5, when the series will be even more popular than it is now.

You might be thinking, "But what about the polls?" If Ridley won the poll he still wouldn't be playable. Sakurai will take who he wants, and I don't think he really wants these 3 right now.

I don't know, that's just my thoughts. Of course if you disagree let me know. But please do it in a somewhat friendly manner.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I agree and disagree with stigmas against 3rd parties.

I understand it's a Nintendo game. But there are some good 3rd parties available. Adding a few more won't kill the game. Let's say for example, that the next 15 newcomers (DLC + Smash 5) are as follows:

K.Rool
Isaac
Inklings
Wonder Red
Another Pokemon
Another Fire Emblem person
Bandanna Dee
Chibi-Robo
Captain Toad
E.Gadd
Rhythm Heaven newcomer
Wolf
Snake
Rayman
Some retro character

So this is the roster:


PLUS:
Captain Toad, Wonder Red, Bandanna Dee, E.Gadd, another PKMN newbie, FE newbie, RH newbie, Chibi Robo, Retro, Inklings, Isaac, K.Rool, and Rayman. That's 6 3rd Parties with...59 Nintendo characters. 59/65. That's a butt ton of characters. You're looking at roughly 91% of the roster being 1st Parties. That's not even counting the Mii Fighters. If you count them, that's 62/68

Your 3rd Party roster contains:
Sonic (he's Sonic), Mega Man (he's Mega Man) Pac-Man (he's Pac-Man) Ryu (icon of SF and fighting genre) Snake (gaming icon and veteran of Smash) and Rayman (gaming icon, popular 3rd party). For 3rd parties, that's a pretty awesome lineup.

Once we start getting into QUESTIONABLE 3rd parties, then I agree. But I'd argue that there are acceptable characters left.

 

[Chandeelure]

I mean I'm going to be honest here, this is just my opinion on how I think Sakurai's brain is working on this. By no means do you have to agree with me.

My thoughts are that Sakurai will not find those characters to be viable in this edition of Smash.

For Waddle Dee, I think Sakurai considers him just a simple minor enemy much to how he can only consider Ridley
to be boss only material. You could argue that R.O.B. was the same way in Brawl, but he wasn't. R.O.B. was never fought against as a simple enemy in subspace as Waddle Dee is in Smash Run. When people who aren't familiar with the series think Kirby they think of the three already in Smash as playable characters. I think Sakurai feels the same way, and that he doesn't feel Waddle Dee needs to be playable. I think that if he found Bandana Dee, the specific Waddle Dee to be important to the series, he would already be featured in the game to some capacity.

Same goes for Isaac.
Where did his assist trophy go? Little Mac was made playable, and if he wanted Isaac to be playable, he would have had him be in the group of Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu. The fact that he didn't consider Isaac important enough to bring back as at least an assist makes me think Sakurai forgot about him. I feel we are more likely to see a DLC assist for Isaac before we seem him playable.

Inkling I just don't think is ready yet to be playable yet, and they have a better shot for Smash 5, when the series will be even more popular than it is now.

You might be thinking, "But what about the polls?" If Ridley won the poll he still wouldn't be playable. Sakurai will take who he wants, and I don't think he really wants these 3 right now.

I don't know, that's just my thoughts. Of course if you disagree let me know. But please do it in a somewhat friendly manner.

Roy wasn't in the game, not even as a trophy, Sakurai probably thinks he is unnecessary and not relevant anymore, Roy disconfirmed (JK).
That's just a weird theory, it's like "I don't think Sakurai will add K.Rool/Dixie because even with all the requests he didn't add a DK newcomer in the base game or pre-ballot DLC, he probably doesn't think DK needs a newcomer".
But yeah, it's fine, that's your opinion, but still, even if that theory is true (I really doubt it), Shantae is not more likely than them.
She has no chances so she would have the same chances as those characters.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Roy wasn't in the game, not even as a trophy, Sakurai probably thinks he is unnecessary and not relevant anymore, Roy disconfirmed (JK).
That's just a weird theory, it's like "I don't think Sakurai will add K.Rool/Dixie because even with all the requests he didn't add a DK newcomer in the base game or pre-ballot DLC, he probably doesn't think DK needs a newcomer".
But yeah, it's fine, that's your opinion, but still, even if that theory is true (I really doubt it), Shantae is not more likely than them.
She has no chances so she would have the same chances as those characters.

Yeah I see how it probably might sound to others. It's just one of those gut feelings you know?

But that's the glory of Sakurai's brain... it never makes sense to any of us.

 

[Wintropy]

I agree and disagree with stigmas against 3rd parties.

I understand it's a Nintendo game. But there are some good 3rd parties available. Adding a few more won't kill the game. Let's say for example, that the next 15 newcomers (DLC + Smash 5) are as follows:

K.Rool
Isaac
Inklings
Wonder Red
Another Pokemon
Another Fire Emblem person
Bandanna Dee
Chibi-Robo
Captain Toad
E.Gadd
Rhythm Heaven newcomer
Wolf
Snake
Rayman
Some retro character

So this is the roster:


PLUS:
Captain Toad, Wonder Red, Bandanna Dee, E.Gadd, another PKMN newbie, FE newbie, RH newbie, Chibi Robo, Retro, Inklings, Isaac, K.Rool, and Rayman. That's 6 3rd Parties with...59 Nintendo characters. 59/65. That's a butt ton of characters. You're looking at roughly 91% of the roster being 1st Parties. That's not even counting the Mii Fighters. If you count them, that's 62/68

Your 3rd Party roster contains:
Sonic (he's Sonic), Mega Man (he's Mega Man) Pac-Man (he's Pac-Man) Ryu (icon of SF and fighting genre) Snake (gaming icon and veteran of Smash) and Rayman (gaming icon, popular 3rd party). For 3rd parties, that's a pretty awesome lineup.

Once we start getting into QUESTIONABLE 3rd parties, then I agree. But I'd argue that there are acceptable characters left.

I read "another Fire Emblem person" as "Anna".

Can she be this magical mystery character, then~? :3

 

[JaidynReiman]

I mean I'm going to be honest here, this is just my opinion on how I think Sakurai's brain is working on this. By no means do you have to agree with me.

My thoughts are that Sakurai will not find those characters to be viable in this edition of Smash.

For Waddle Dee, I think Sakurai considers him just a simple minor enemy much to how he can only consider Ridley
to be boss only material. You could argue that R.O.B. was the same way in Brawl, but he wasn't. R.O.B. was never fought against as a simple enemy in subspace as Waddle Dee is in Smash Run. When people who aren't familiar with the series think Kirby they think of the three already in Smash as playable characters. I think Sakurai feels the same way, and that he doesn't feel Waddle Dee needs to be playable. I think that if he found Bandana Dee, the specific Waddle Dee to be important to the series, he would already be featured in the game to some capacity.

Same goes for Isaac.
Where did his assist trophy go? Little Mac was made playable, and if he wanted Isaac to be playable, he would have had him be in the group of Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu. The fact that he didn't consider Isaac important enough to bring back as at least an assist makes me think Sakurai forgot about him. I feel we are more likely to see a DLC assist for Isaac before we seem him playable.

Inkling I just don't think is ready yet to be playable yet, and they have a better shot for Smash 5, when the series will be even more popular than it is now.

You might be thinking, "But what about the polls?" If Ridley won the poll he still wouldn't be playable. Sakurai will take who he wants, and I don't think he really wants these 3 right now.

I don't know, that's just my thoughts. Of course if you disagree let me know. But please do it in a somewhat friendly manner.

I see little chance of a DLC assist. Either Isaac is added as playable or as a Mii costume, but definitely not an Assist. I'm pretty certain Isaac will at LEAST get a Mii costume, due to the massive demand he's been getting.


Plus, not all characters are like "I don't care at all about this character, ignored." In fact, very rarely would that probably be the case. Rather, in some cases, its a matter of "Ok, the fans really want this one, but it doesn't look right to me... sorry, I can't justify it." That being Ridley.

Then there's other ones who get overlooked. That doesn't mean he doesn't want them at all, its a ridiculous notion. Its more on the lines of "This character doesn't have much going for him/her and there's other character's I'd rather have."

Skipping out on an Assist Trophy doesn't mean that Sakurai suddenly doesn't want in any way, shape, or form to include the character as playable, and if that character gets surprising overwhelming support, I don't see why he couldn't reconsider his position. That's exactly what the ballot is for; adding characters the fans want who got overlooked (because, obviously, if they didn't get overlooked the fans wouldn't still be requesting them).


The notion of "Sakurai forgot about him" can apply to ANY CHARACTER WHO ISN'T PLAYABLE IN THE GAME. Its a stupid argument and simply does not work.

I agree and disagree with stigmas against 3rd parties.

I understand it's a Nintendo game. But there are some good 3rd parties available. Adding a few more won't kill the game. Let's say for example, that the next 15 newcomers (DLC + Smash 5) are as follows:

K.Rool
Isaac
Inklings
Wonder Red
Another Pokemon
Another Fire Emblem person
Bandanna Dee
Chibi-Robo
Captain Toad
E.Gadd
Rhythm Heaven newcomer
Wolf
Snake
Rayman
Some retro character

So this is the roster:


PLUS:
Captain Toad, Wonder Red, Bandanna Dee, E.Gadd, another PKMN newbie, FE newbie, RH newbie, Chibi Robo, Retro, Inklings, Isaac, K.Rool, and Rayman. That's 6 3rd Parties with...59 Nintendo characters. 59/65. That's a butt ton of characters. You're looking at roughly 91% of the roster being 1st Parties. That's not even counting the Mii Fighters. If you count them, that's 62/68

Your 3rd Party roster contains:
Sonic (he's Sonic), Mega Man (he's Mega Man) Pac-Man (he's Pac-Man) Ryu (icon of SF and fighting genre) Snake (gaming icon and veteran of Smash) and Rayman (gaming icon, popular 3rd party). For 3rd parties, that's a pretty awesome lineup.

Once we start getting into QUESTIONABLE 3rd parties, then I agree. But I'd argue that there are acceptable characters left.

The stigma against third-parties isn't about the possibility of getting more in. Its about the notion that very obscure third-parties would even be considered let alone created into a character.


Yeah, the main roster is pretty big with just Nintendo characters, and there's still plenty more to go. We can viably see 1-2 new third-parties per title. And 1-2 may be dropped due to licensing issues as well. That's also the problem with third-parties; the licensing and negotiating back and forth causes them to be far more difficult to create, which is also why we're not likely to see many, and only the big iconic ones are the ones likely to be added.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I see little chance of a DLC assist. Either Isaac is added as playable or as a Mii costume, but definitely not an Assist. I'm pretty certain Isaac will at LEAST get a Mii costume, due to the massive demand he's been getting.


Plus, not all characters are like "I don't care at all about this character, ignored." In fact, very rarely would that probably be the case. Rather, in some cases, its a matter of "Ok, the fans really want this one, but it doesn't look right to me... sorry, I can't justify it." That being Ridley.

Then there's other ones who get overlooked. That doesn't mean he doesn't want them at all, its a ridiculous notion. Its more on the lines of "This character doesn't have much going for him/her and there's other character's I'd rather have."

Skipping out on an Assist Trophy doesn't mean that Sakurai suddenly doesn't want in any way, shape, or form to include the character as playable, and if that character gets surprising overwhelming support, I don't see why he couldn't reconsider his position. That's exactly what the ballot is for; adding characters the fans want who got overlooked (because, obviously, if they didn't get overlooked the fans wouldn't still be requesting them).


The notion of "Sakurai forgot about him" can apply to ANY CHARACTER WHO ISN'T PLAYABLE IN THE GAME. Its a stupid argument and simply does not work.



The stigma against third-parties isn't about the possibility of getting more in. Its about the notion that very obscure third-parties would even be considered let alone created into a character.


Yeah, the main roster is pretty big with just Nintendo characters, and there's still plenty more to go. We can viably see 1-2 new third-parties per title. And 1-2 may be dropped due to licensing issues as well. That's also the problem with third-parties; the licensing and negotiating back and forth causes them to be far more difficult to create, which is also why we're not likely to see many, and only the big iconic ones are the ones likely to be added.

I agree. The main point I was making was that people turn down 3rd parties sometimes, probably because they don't want it to be overkill. I just think they worry too much. I have faith that they wouldn't just pick ANY 3rd party. Especially not after the ones we've gotten.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I see little chance of a DLC assist. Either Isaac is added as playable or as a Mii costume, but definitely not an Assist. I'm pretty certain Isaac will at LEAST get a Mii costume, due to the massive demand he's been getting.


Plus, not all characters are like "I don't care at all about this character, ignored." In fact, very rarely would that probably be the case. Rather, in some cases, its a matter of "Ok, the fans really want this one, but it doesn't look right to me... sorry, I can't justify it." That being Ridley.

Then there's other ones who get overlooked. That doesn't mean he doesn't want them at all, its a ridiculous notion. Its more on the lines of "This character doesn't have much going for him/her and there's other character's I'd rather have."

Skipping out on an Assist Trophy doesn't mean that Sakurai suddenly doesn't want in any way, shape, or form to include the character as playable, and if that character gets surprising overwhelming support, I don't see why he couldn't reconsider his position. That's exactly what the ballot is for; adding characters the fans want who got overlooked (because, obviously, if they didn't get overlooked the fans wouldn't still be requesting them).


The notion of "Sakurai forgot about him" can apply to ANY CHARACTER WHO ISN'T PLAYABLE IN THE GAME. Its a stupid argument and simply does not work.






The stigma against third-parties isn't about the possibility of getting more in. Its about the notion that very obscure third-parties would even be considered let alone created into a character.


Yeah, the main roster is pretty big with just Nintendo characters, and there's still plenty more to go. We can viably see 1-2 new third-parties per title. And 1-2 may be dropped due to licensing issues as well. That's also the problem with third-parties; the licensing and negotiating back and forth causes them to be far more difficult to create, which is also why we're not likely to see many, and only the big iconic ones are the ones likely to be added.

Ok I see what you mean, I would certainly expect a costume for Isaac at the least. But in terms of it applying to every character playable, I would have to disagree. An example could be Takumaru who is an Assist in Smash 4, or Ayumi in Melee who at least had a trophy. Isaac to my knowledge, doesn't show up in this game at all. That's what I was going for when I said Sakurai forgot about him. Where is the Golden Sun representation? Does Sakurai find the series important? If he does wouldn't he at least give it some type of representation? Besides the two tracks on random stages.

 

[JaidynReiman]

I agree. The main point I was making was that people turn down 3rd parties sometimes, probably because they don't want it to be overkill. I just think they worry too much. I have faith that they wouldn't just pick ANY 3rd party. Especially not after the ones we've gotten.

My big problem with another DLC third-party at this point is getting a second third-party as DLC, rather than going for other first-party characters who could still be chosen. We already got three new third-parties in this title, that's a lot for Smash Bros. I'd rather we not get any more third-parties at this point in time, I want to see as many Nintendo newcomers as possible and I still think Wolf is coming as well.

Ok I see what you mean, I would certainly expect a costume for Isaac at the least. But in terms of it applying to every character playable, I would have to disagree. An example could be Takumaru who is an Assist in Smash 4, or Ayumi in Melee who at least had a trophy. Isaac to my knowledge, doesn't show up in this game at all. That's what I was going for when I said Sakurai forgot about him. Where is any Golden Sun representation?

Regardless of whether it was forgotten or not, what's to stop them from adding a GS character (or stage or both) as DLC if there's enough fan demand for it? I don't get the logic.


Also, there are two Golden Sun songs in the game. Weyard is unlockable for Palutena's Temple (its the world map theme from Dark Dawn) and Battle Theme Medley is still available on Norfair, its a remix of various battle themes from Golden Sun: The Lost Age.

 

[The Light Music Club]

My big problem with another DLC third-party at this point is getting a second third-party as DLC, rather than going for other first-party characters who could still be chosen. We already got three new third-parties in this title, that's a lot for Smash Bros. I'd rather we not get any more third-parties at this point in time, I want to see as many Nintendo newcomers as possible and I still think Wolf is coming as well.



Regardless of whether it was forgotten or not, what's to stop them from adding a GS character (or stage or both) as DLC if there's enough fan demand for it? I don't get the logic.


Also, there are two Golden Sun songs in the game. Weyard is unlockable for Palutena's Temple (its the world map theme from Dark Dawn) and Battle Theme Medley is still available on Norfair, its a remix of various battle themes from Golden Sun: The Lost Age.

It doesn't matter if the fan demand is enough, if Sakurai doesn't find the character needed, he won't add them, it's simple.

Also yes, I realized that and edited my post. I feel though Sakurai should have given Isaac a trophy, it's strange to me that he doesn't have one, yet people can consider him one of the most likely characters to be added. (RMC has him over 50%)

 

[EmceeEspio]

I see little chance of a DLC assist. Either Isaac is added as playable or as a Mii costume, but definitely not an Assist. I'm pretty certain Isaac will at LEAST get a Mii costume, due to the massive demand he's been getting.


Plus, not all characters are like "I don't care at all about this character, ignored." In fact, very rarely would that probably be the case. Rather, in some cases, its a matter of "Ok, the fans really want this one, but it doesn't look right to me... sorry, I can't justify it." That being Ridley.

Then there's other ones who get overlooked. That doesn't mean he doesn't want them at all, its a ridiculous notion. Its more on the lines of "This character doesn't have much going for him/her and there's other character's I'd rather have."

Skipping out on an Assist Trophy doesn't mean that Sakurai suddenly doesn't want in any way, shape, or form to include the character as playable, and if that character gets surprising overwhelming support, I don't see why he couldn't reconsider his position. That's exactly what the ballot is for; adding characters the fans want who got overlooked (because, obviously, if they didn't get overlooked the fans wouldn't still be requesting them).


The notion of "Sakurai forgot about him" can apply to ANY CHARACTER WHO ISN'T PLAYABLE IN THE GAME. Its a stupid argument and simply does not work.



The stigma against third-parties isn't about the possibility of getting more in. Its about the notion that very obscure third-parties would even be considered let alone created into a character.


Yeah, the main roster is pretty big with just Nintendo characters, and there's still plenty more to go. We can viably see 1-2 new third-parties per title. And 1-2 may be dropped due to licensing issues as well. That's also the problem with third-parties; the licensing and negotiating back and forth causes them to be far more difficult to create, which is also why we're not likely to see many, and only the big iconic ones are the ones likely to be added.

I'm just going to say that - and this is coming from a huge Sin and Punishment fan - there's no way Sakurai would forget Issac before Saki.

If he isn't DLC I'll be almost as shocked as if King K. Rool isn't. Only almost.

 

[Ura]

I think some people underestimate how popularity for a character is different for the ballot then it is for the vanilla roster.

Fans hardly have any input for who gets in the vanilla roster as popularity isn't a deciding factor there. Only some of the characters are chosen for their popularity and even then what's "popular" can be ambiguous in a way that it's popular to some people but not everyone.

The ballot is different in a sense that fans have the power to get a certain character in the game more so than they would normally have (Sakurai does have the last say though he wouldn't turn down a character with enormous popularity unless that character happens to be Ridley or some next 4th party character in which Sakurai won't add).

That's why i'm still confident that K. Rool will end up becoming DLC and that Isaac and Bandana Dee stand a strong chance of also following suit. A character doesn't necessarily need to be involved in the game to have a chance of being DLC. & were without any trophies in Brawl and were only merely stickers in the game. had it even worse initially in Sm4sH when he had no involvement in the game other than Marth having an attire based off his Melee outfit. All of that happened yet both &are in the game right now showing that involvement in the game in order to get in as a playable character is unecessary.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I think some people underestimate how popularity for a character is different for the ballot then it is for the vanilla roster.

Fans hardly have any input for who gets in the vanilla roster as popularity isn't a deciding factor there. Only some of the characters are chosen for their popularity and even then what's "popular" can be ambiguous in a way that it's popular to some people but not everyone.

The ballot is different in a sense that fans have the power to get a certain character in the game more so than they would normally have (Sakurai does have the last say though he wouldn't turn down a character with enormous popularity unless that character happens to be Ridley or some next 4th party character in which Sakurai won't add).

That's why i'm still confident that K. Rool will end up becoming DLC and that Isaac and Bandana Dee stand a strong chance of also following suit. A character doesn't necessarily need to be involved in the game to have a chance of being DLC. & were without any trophies in Brawl and were only merely stickers in the game. had it even worse initially in Sm4sH when he had no involvement in the game other than Marth having an attire based off his Melee outfit. All of that happened yet both &are in the game right now showing that involvement in the game in order to get in as a playable character is unecessary.

I see where you are coming from. But once again to me, Roy's situation is different than Isaac. Roy and Doc, had stickers, that's something rather than nothing. In Smash 4, Roy was pre-ballot, so Sakurai had plans for Roy. Isaac isn't pre-ballot, and still has zero representation in Smash 4, that's the big difference. Roy got added in the game as a preballot character, and so did Ryu, making their lack of content mean nothing. Isaac isn't pre-ballot, that's what makes the zero content so strange to me.

 

[BluePikmin11]

New Quick Update:

* Callie & Marie:
http://www.poll-maker.com/poll383419xeeba4950-15

* Dillon:
http://www.poll-maker.com/poll383409xE5bB4B12-15

* Dr. Wily:
http://www.poll-maker.com/poll383421x7dc0bB59-15

* Elma:
http://www.poll-maker.com/poll383414x4F40C0Bc-15

Go vote!

 

[Scamper52596]

In the same vein, I feel that a lot of people around here overestimate the popularity of some characters. I've noticed that many of the characters that are popular on Internet forums aren't really cared about when it comes to what I like to call the general audience, which is a lot bigger. What I'm saying is that we're part of a vocal minority that's loud because we use the Internet, but most the people who own and play Smash 4 way more casually than we do and who don't keep up with it on the Internet outnumber us. I think that Sakurai and the developers are going to continue to create DLC that will most likely appeal to the general audience along with us. The problem is that many of the characters that I see people from Smashboards root for are characters that aren't really popular with the larger audience. I've met more people outside of the 20 to 45 people I see on Smashboards everyday who don't care for any of the characters that the people I interact with on this website do. That's the reason I have next to no confidence in King K. Rool's chances ever since his Mii Fighter costume reveal, and have hardly any confidence in many of the other 'popular' characters.

So far we've seen three veterans that almost every Smash fan is familiar with along with a character that is very iconic that almost every gamer is familiar with, three veteran stages that are from the original Smash along with one new stage that was bundled with a character, and a bunch of Mii Fighter costumes that aren't too difficult to make. That tells me that they're playing it very safe with their DLC lineup, and I just don't feel that they're going to drastically change that in future DLC. Sure we have the ballot, but I've always seen it as more of a suggestion box rather than an actual popularity contest. Sakurai probably wants to gauge what characters will sell well overall. The trick is to pick a character from the ballot that can be popular and appeal to both the general audience and the more hardcore audience because not all characters that are popular with the hardcore audience are popular with the general audience. I don't think Sakurai is just going to drop all of the various factors that go into picking a character for popularity alone and instead look for characters that he feel will appeal to everybody despite maybe not being a very popular choice on Internet forums because, like I said, the general audience outnumbers us.

Just felt like sharing because that's the way I see it. I wouldn't even be surprised at this point if the characters we get from the ballot won't even feel like ballot characters and instead just feel like the next DLC characters in general. I always see people refer to the characters that will get picked from the ballot as ballot characters so it's been conditioned in my mind that they should stand out as being ballot characters, but at this point I doubt they even will in the end.

 

[JaidynReiman]

In the same vein, I feel that a lot of people around here overestimate the popularity of some characters. I've noticed that many of the characters that are popular on Internet forums aren't really cared about when it comes to what I like to call the general audience, which is a lot bigger. What I'm saying is that we're part of a vocal minority that's loud because we use the Internet, but most the people who own and play Smash 4 way more casually than we do and who don't keep up with it on the Internet outnumber us. I think that Sakurai and the developers are going to continue to create DLC that will most likely appeal to the general audience along with us. The problem is that many of the characters that I see people from Smashboards root for are characters that aren't really popular with the larger audience. I've met more people outside of the 20 to 45 people I see on Smashboards everyday who don't care for any of the characters that the people I interact with on this website do. That's the reason I have next to no confidence in King K. Rool's chances ever since his Mii Fighter costume reveal, and have hardly any confidence in many of the other 'popular' characters.

So far we've seen three veterans that almost every Smash fan is familiar with along with a character that is very iconic that almost every gamer is familiar with, three veteran stages that are from the original Smash along with one new stage that was bundled with a character, and a bunch of Mii Fighter costumes that aren't too difficult to make. That tells me that they're playing it very safe with their DLC lineup, and I just don't feel that they're going to drastically change that in future DLC. Sure we have the ballot, but I've always seen it as more of a suggestion box rather than an actual popularity contest. Sakurai probably wants to gauge what characters will sell well overall. The trick is to pick a character from the ballot that can be popular and appeal to both the general audience and the more hardcore audience because not all characters that are popular with the hardcore audience are popular with the general audience. I don't think Sakurai is just going to drop all of the various factors that go into picking a character for popularity alone and instead look for characters that he feel will appeal to everybody despite maybe not being a very popular choice on Internet forums because, like I said, the general audience outnumbers us.

Just felt like sharing because that's the way I see it. I wouldn't even be surprised at this point if the characters we get from the ballot won't even feel like ballot characters and instead just feel like the next DLC characters in general. I always see people refer to the characters that will get picked from the ballot as ballot characters so it's been conditioned in my mind that they should stand out as being ballot characters, but at this point I doubt they even will in the end.

I'd like a source on that "general audience," because as far as I'm seeing, the "general audience," AKA the more casual fanbase, are far less likely to be aware the ballot even exists. The core fanbase, the ones that would know it exists and submit ballots, are also the ones who more frequent online forums and the internet in general, and would be far more likely to submit ballots in the first place.


Whenever someone brings this up, they always fail to mention the fact that the likelihood of a massive "casual" fanbase voting in the ballot is slim-to-none, and even then, if they would be aware of it they'd vote for something totally random because, they're casuals. They don't know any better. Many of them probably vote the first thing that pops into their head, namely non-video game characters who have zero chance of being added anyway.



The main roster is the one this time around that targeted a more casual audience with characters like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer. The hardcore audience are the ones who would be far more likely to vote in the ballot.

 

[BKupa666]

I think some people underestimate how popularity for a character is different for the ballot then it is for the vanilla roster.

Fans hardly have any input for who gets in the vanilla roster as popularity isn't a deciding factor there. Only some of the characters are chosen for their popularity and even then what's "popular" can be ambiguous in a way that it's popular to some people but not everyone.

The ballot is different in a sense that fans have the power to get a certain character in the game more so than they would normally have (Sakurai does have the last say though he wouldn't turn down a character with enormous popularity unless that character happens to be Ridley or some next 4th party character in which Sakurai won't add).

That's why i'm still confident that K. Rool will end up becoming DLC and that Isaac and Bandana Dee stand a strong chance of also following suit. A character doesn't necessarily need to be involved in the game to have a chance of being DLC. & were without any trophies in Brawl and were only merely stickers in the game. had it even worse initially in Sm4sH when he had no involvement in the game other than Marth having an attire based off his Melee outfit. All of that happened yet both &are in the game right now showing that involvement in the game in order to get in as a playable character is unecessary.

Good post. Of course, you have to consider that Sakurai might not be taking "fan service" to mean the same thing that we, the fans, do (i.e. "I'm working overtime at my kitchen to deliver you more food dishes! That is service for the fans, right?"). At the same time, the fear of casual overlords flooding the ballot is vastly overstated...they have to know about the ballot, care about it, and vote for the same few characters in droves for any impact to be had, which there's no proof of them doing. They need to be at least somewhat invested in Smash online to know about the ballot at all, and they split votes between characters like the rest of us; just take Shantae and Shovel Knight and Banjo and replace them with assorted Mario and Pokémon characters, plus Shrek.

Could both of those things happen? Absolutely (the former way more likely than the latter). But the odds certainly aren't ever in their favor.

 

[The Light Music Club]

We have to keep in mind that casuals still know about these types of things. I mean, Nintendo does make it a point for the general audience to know about their up and coming events, the ballot included. The mass amount of Twitter, Facebook, and Miiverse "casuals" could be voting, and we just don't know it. We have no way to gauge any type of popularity without really knowing who those types of people are voting for.

Which is why I once again would like to point to Isaac and Bandana Dee, how many non-hardcore fans know about these characters?? Especially Isaac, since he hasn't been a playable character in a long time.

Heck, even the "lurkers" who watch us (like those visiting when the leak broke) could be voting for other characters we might not even have thought of.

Same goes for those in all the other regions. What about Nintendo fans in say Africa? Do we know who they are voting for? No we do not. I do know they exist too because they are the amiibo reddit.

Simply put, we won't know who will be in, until we see what lies behind the fiery smash ball in the next trailer. There are just too many factors.

 

[Scamper52596]

I'd like a source on that "general audience," because as far as I'm seeing, the "general audience," AKA the more casual fanbase, are far less likely to be aware the ballot even exists. The core fanbase, the ones that would know it exists and submit ballots, are also the ones who more frequent online forums and the internet in general, and would be far more likely to submit ballots in the first place.


Whenever someone brings this up, they always fail to mention the fact that the likelihood of a massive "casual" fanbase voting in the ballot is slim-to-none, and even then, if they would be aware of it they'd vote for something totally random because, they're casuals. They don't know any better. Many of them probably vote the first thing that pops into their head, namely non-video game characters who have zero chance of being added anyway.



The main roster is the one this time around that targeted a more casual audience with characters like Villager and Wii Fit Trainer. The hardcore audience are the ones who would be far more likely to vote in the ballot.

I explicitly mentioned that I like to call it the general audience, so there's obviously no source for something like that. I don't even know why you asked. When I'm talking about the casual fanbse I'm talking about the people who still enjoy playing Smash, but aren't following it as closely as we are. Those kind of people still greatly outnumber us. You have to remember that DLC has to sell whether or not the more casual fanbase is voting in the ballot, which I'm sure many of them still are. This includes people who only own the 3DS version which has an install base of over 50 million, so there are probably way more 3DS owners playing this game who aren't keeping up with everything as closely as we are. Sakurai is targeting the more casual audience with Smash, so he's more than likely going to choose characters that he feel will sell to them. This brings me back to my original argument which is that there are many popular characters I notice that won't appeal to a majority of the target/general audience, and I don't think Sakurai is going to choose characters that he feel won't sell as well to that audience based on what DLC we've seen so far.

 

[Aetheri]

In the same vein, I feel that a lot of people around here overestimate the popularity of some characters. I've noticed that many of the characters that are popular on Internet forums aren't really cared about when it comes to what I like to call the general audience, which is a lot bigger. What I'm saying is that we're part of a vocal minority that's loud because we use the Internet, but most the people who own and play Smash 4 way more casually than we do and who don't keep up with it on the Internet outnumber us. I think that Sakurai and the developers are going to continue to create DLC that will most likely appeal to the general audience along with us. The problem is that many of the characters that I see people from Smashboards root for are characters that aren't really popular with the larger audience. I've met more people outside of the 20 to 45 people I see on Smashboards everyday who don't care for any of the characters that the people I interact with on this website do. That's the reason I have next to no confidence in King K. Rool's chances ever since his Mii Fighter costume reveal, and have hardly any confidence in many of the other 'popular' characters.

So far we've seen three veterans that almost every Smash fan is familiar with along with a character that is very iconic that almost every gamer is familiar with, three veteran stages that are from the original Smash along with one new stage that was bundled with a character, and a bunch of Mii Fighter costumes that aren't too difficult to make. That tells me that they're playing it very safe with their DLC lineup, and I just don't feel that they're going to drastically change that in future DLC. Sure we have the ballot, but I've always seen it as more of a suggestion box rather than an actual popularity contest. Sakurai probably wants to gauge what characters will sell well overall. The trick is to pick a character from the ballot that can be popular and appeal to both the general audience and the more hardcore audience because not all characters that are popular with the hardcore audience are popular with the general audience. I don't think Sakurai is just going to drop all of the various factors that go into picking a character for popularity alone and instead look for characters that he feel will appeal to everybody despite maybe not being a very popular choice on Internet forums because, like I said, the general audience outnumbers us.

Just felt like sharing because that's the way I see it. I wouldn't even be surprised at this point if the characters we get from the ballot won't even feel like ballot characters and instead just feel like the next DLC characters in general. I always see people refer to the characters that will get picked from the ballot as ballot characters so it's been conditioned in my mind that they should stand out as being ballot characters, but at this point I doubt they even will in the end.

As Jaidyn stated, the casual audience are less likely to be voting on the ballot to begin with, they are less likely to be following the Smash website or Nintendo Directs etc... and if Sakurai's going to be picking characters from the ballot then it is more likely that the characters will appeal to hardcore smash fans more because they are the ones that are more than likely voting for said characters....

Also keep in mind that casuals aren't exactly 'rooting' for any specific characters, thus they may not care who exactly gets in over other characters to begin with...unlike the vocal minority being those that frequent internet forums and such....Heck I won't be surprised if a large number of casuals don't even bother with DLC, casuals may not bother with trying out every character out of an already large roster because they don't play the crap out of the game to being with...unlike the rest of us that puts in hundreds of hours...

Now of course the more recognizable the character the more likely it may catch the casual player's eye, but at the same time the Smash roster already has a lot of characters that most of us wouldn't even be familiar with outside of smash, the exposure can still be good for the character even amoung the general audience...

 

[Scamper52596]

As Jaidyn stated, the casual audience are less likely to be voting on the ballot to begin with, they are less likely to be following the Smash website or Nintendo Directs etc... and if Sakurai's going to be picking characters from the ballot then it is more likely that the characters will appeal to hardcore smash fans more because they are the ones that are more than likely voting for said characters....

Also keep in mind that casuals aren't exactly 'rooting' for any specific characters, thus they may not care who exactly gets in over other characters to begin with...unlike the vocal minority being those that frequent internet forums and such....Heck I won't be surprised if a large number of casuals don't even bother with DLC, casuals may not bother with trying out every character out of an already large roster because they don't play the crap out of the game to being with...unlike the rest of us that puts in hundreds of hours...

Now of course the more recognizable the character the more likely it may catch the casual player's eye, but at the same time the Smash roster already has a lot of characters that most of us wouldn't even be familiar with outside of smash, the exposure can still be good for the character even amoung the general audience...

I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of casual fans don't bother with DLC, but I'm sure that another large number of casual fans do bother with it. Nintendo obviously wants DLC to sell. Whether the casual fans keep up with Directs and the Smash website, Nintendo still bothers to advertise their Smash DLC on the main menu and also when you turn the game on. The easiest way to make sure it's worth it to create DLC is if Sakurai chooses characters that will appeal. That's why they've been keeping it safe with the DLC they made so far. I don't feel like that's going to drastically change.

 

[BKupa666]

Let's look at how Nintendo has promoted the ballot...the April Direct and the Smash Facebook page (unsure about Twitter), the former of which is something almost exclusively online fans watch, and the latter of which features a mix of online fans and casuals. Those sources then spread to online publications and forums (for the ballot announcement itself as well as "OMG WayForward Wants Shantae In Smash!!" fluff pieces), which, as the name suggests, are read predominantly by online fans, with a few casuals stumbling by from time to time. You have occasional "Vote for So-And-So" Miiverse posts, where there's generally more casuals, but then again, it's not droves and droves of them, given the pitiful install base of one of the two consoles, and where not all of them even know what they're voting for or where. And then, of course, word of mouth, which you have to assume comes largely from the fans who care enough about Smash and voting for new characters to bring it up to fellow gamer friends.

Unless Nintendo explodes with casual promotion of the ballot these last two months, that's not a blend that's going to favor casual influence. If anything, hardcore trolls will blur the lines between online and casual fan desires ("Ballot Suggestions" on Twitter has a ton of joke suggestions, not to mention 4chan existing, period) to the point where using those labels is futile; in essence, there are viable ballots and distraction ballots, the latter of which come from both groups and the former of which online fans have a much firmer grip upon due to their focus and determination.

EDIT: Also, I've said it before, unless Nintendo legitimately suspects foul play, it's stupidly baseless to look at concrete 'sales' data with the ballot and then allow Sakurai to say "Nah, I don't think those characters will sell. I'll ignore the ballot data and invent my own for the lulz."

 

[Ura]

I see where you are coming from. But once again to me, Roy's situation is different than Isaac. Roy and Doc, had stickers, that's something rather than nothing. In Smash 4, Roy was pre-ballot, so Sakurai had plans for Roy. Isaac isn't pre-ballot, and still has zero representation in Smash 4, that's the big difference. Roy got added in the game as a preballot character, and so did Ryu, making their lack of content mean nothing. Isaac isn't pre-ballot, that's what makes the zero content so strange to me.

Still, my point is that not being in the game initially doesn't negate a character from being in the game. Isaac might not be pre-ballot but there's really nothing stopping him from getting in the game as a ballot character given his popularity in the fanbase. If the ballot was truly "fanservice", then Isaac being in the game should be a must really because theirs not a lot of characters that have the fan support that he does.

Good post. Of course, you have to consider that Sakurai might not be taking "fan service" to mean the same thing that we, the fans, do (i.e. "I'm working overtime at my kitchen to deliver you more food dishes! That is service for the fans, right?"). At the same time, the fear of casual overlords flooding the ballot is vastly overstated...they have to know about the ballot, care about it, and vote for the same few characters in droves for any impact to be had, which there's no proof of them doing. They need to be at least somewhat invested in Smash online to know about the ballot at all, and they split votes between characters like the rest of us; just take Shantae and Shovel Knight and Banjo and replace them with assorted Mario and Pokémon characters, plus Shrek.

Could both of those things happen? Absolutely (the former way more likely than the latter). But the odds certainly aren't ever in their favor.

This brings me back to my original argument which is that there are many popular characters I notice that won't appeal to a majority of the target/general audience, and I don't think Sakurai is going to choose characters that he feel won't sell as well to that audience based on what DLC we've seen so far.

These are good points to take in to consideration though i'm a bit skeptical about it. A lot of the casuals vote for stupid characters that have little to no chance of being in a Smash game. These people vote for Goku, Shrek, Spongebob, and other 4th party characters that Sakurai laughs at the prospect of being in the game along with Sony/Microsoft characters. hasn't been in a Smash game since Melee (before he became DLC) and theirs a lot of Smash Bros fans (the general/casual fans more specifically) that got in to the series during the Brawl days. Sakurai had no problem making the character DLC even with that in to consideration and the character presumably sold well. Even so, a lot of casual fans will still be interested in whatever characters come out so they could watch gameplay footage of said character and want to purchase that DLC character based on said character's Smash appearance even if they have no interest in the character's game he/she originated from.

And lets be real here, who here actually liked&because of FE back in the Melee days? People only liked the 2 because they were the cool swordsmen dudes that were fun to play as. I'm willing to bet that casual fans thought Fire Emblem was a spinoff series of the Legend of Zelda and that Marth and Roy were from a LoZ-like game.

 

[Aetheri]

I'm willing to bet that casual fans thought Fire Emblem was a spinoff series of the Legend of Zelda and that Marth and Roy were from a LoZ-like game.

This reminds me of when I was watching parents name the Smash characters on Youtube, and so many of them thought the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus characters were from Zelda...

However another point is brought up, being that appeal towards a lot of people doesn't necessarily have to be from popularity...If say King K Rool came in and casuals who are unfamiliar with K rool or the DK series in general will probably be interested simply because of his design, personality, moveset, etc...

Edit: posted before I was finished oops...

Either way, even though characters like Isaac, B Dee, Shantae, Shovel Knight, etc may not be notable to the casuals they may still bring enough appeal based on other factors that may catch their interest...This is the beauty of Smash...I wonder how many casuals play Fire Emblem thanks to Smash?

 

[Ura]

I also mained Shulk for a while not because of Xenoblade but because I was really in to his Smash moveset (I have plans on playing Xenoblade one day though). It's totally plausible for a fan to like a character in Smash and not care about that character's game.

 

[Scamper52596]

I think that the biggest way for a character to get the appeal of someone is if they're at least somewhat generally recognizable. That's why I think we got three veterans and a gaming icon. People have an immediate connection to a character they recognize which will make said DLC character an easier sell. That's just my opinion though. I guess we'll all find out what's going on behind the scenes soon enough...

 

[Champ Gold]

This reminds me of when I was watching parents name the Smash characters on Youtube, and so many of them thought the Fire Emblem and Kid Icarus characters were from Zelda...

That kinda happened with me when I first saw in Melee.

Although that didn't help since they both appeared in Hyrule Temple and Together We Ride plays on there as well

 

[SpaceJell0]

I think that whatever happens, we can trust Sakurai to listen to the fans. There's just something about the way he does things that just creates super fun new characters and cooler than before vets.

Whoever makes it in, I can guarantee I large number of you will be happy about it. He knows how to make his fans happy

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Its popular because that's what Sakurai has outright said in the past (not just "ANY" character will be added), and because he's kept up that trend (only EXTREMELY iconic third-party fighters have been made for Smash).


Its not just something the fanbase made up. Sakurai himself has stated this, and has kept up his track record as well.


That doesn't mean lesser third-parties can't make it, but we have to be realistic about suggestions and speculation. At this point in time anything less than an extremely iconic third-party character is completely and totally unrealistic, period, end of story. There's nothing to debate here.


Having an obscure first-party character is a totally different scenario from having an obscure third-party character.

Not exactly what I meant.
What I meant was that people absolutely don't want a character just because it's a lesser 3rd party character. In my opinion, it's no different than not wanting a Pokémon character because it's a Pokémon. I'll just stop right now to avoid arguments.

That's something I often wonder myself.

Black Mage would make a good addition, as the only third-party character from an RPG, unique since he uses black magic, and he'd represent another somewhat major third-party character.

He has loads of ideas for moves, and generally, lots of things to draw from his series that could be good for items, an assist trophy, and a stage. If he got in, I'd hope for Lunar Core like it is in SSF2, that music is so epic. Not Black Mage's moveset though, it's pretty annoying.

I do think I recall hearing about Square Enix being strict about sharing their characters, which might answer your question.

He was in Mario 3-on-3 hoops though. Unless they became even more strict, I don't think they would object to Black Mage being in Smash.
Maybe he just doesn't really cross anyone's mind when talking about Smash.
Cloud Strife might be a factor in this. Some people might want him instead. (Or is he one of those characters that was liked so much everybody hates him?)

Back on topic though, what characters would make the roster feel complete to you guys? (Those who feel the roster is already complete need not reply.)

 

[Talpr1]

Right now, there is an huge crocodile shaped hole in the roster.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Right now, there is an huge crocodile shaped hole in the roster.

Man, no matter how much I stress it, people still believe in the darndest things when it comes to the character selection.

Which is to say, no, Crocomire's exclusion is not a hole in the roster.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Nah but K. Rool would be great.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think a lot of "Casuals" know about the Ballot. It was revealed on a general Nintendo Direct so it's not even just Smash Bros fans that know about it, but fans of all sorts of game franchises in general. Not to mention that the knowledge of the Ballot has been spread across all sorts of websites such as Youtube, Tumblr, Facebook and Twitter etc. DLC even gets advertised in the game itself.....

I think some of you make it sound like the "casual audience" don't even know what the internet is.....

Just my two cent's I guess.

 

[Talpr1]

Even if they know that the ballot exists, the majority of them will probably vote for characters that are effectively a burned vote for whatever reason(third party, NPC in this game, not a VG character), and those who doesn't still aren't organized, making the vote from casuals quite dispersive. Hell, some casuals might vote for perceived major contenders such as K. Rool or Inklings.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I wonder what will happen if none of the top Smashboards/GameFAQs/Reddit picks get in and we instead get a second Sonic character or a new Pokemon or Mario character...

Riots? Internet backlash? Twitter hate mobs?

Would you trust the result? Would you trust Sakurai after? Would that new character be the new 'Dark Pit' or 'Pichu' with a sizable hatebase due to this? So many questions, so very many hypotheticals.

I do genuinely wonder if we'll ever see the top 10 most requested posted anywhere. I'd lean towards no, but it'd be very interesting to see.

Or heck; if we'll even be told in October/November who is on their way or whether they'll stagger the surprises over a long period of time.

 

[Onyx Oblivian]

I think a lot of "Casuals" know about the Ballot. It was revealed on a general Nintendo Direct so it's not even just Smash Bros fans that know about it, but fans of all sorts of game franchises in general. Not to mention that the knowledge of the Ballot has been spread across all sorts of websites such as Youtube, Tumblr, Facebook and Twitter etc. DLC even gets advertised in the game itself.....

I think some of you make it sound like the "casual audience" don't even know what the internet is.....

Just my two cent's I guess.

This is what I was going to say. A LOT of people know about this ballot or at least they did when it was first revealed and voted.

I had friends (who don't frequent forums) who voted for characters like Isabelle and Waluigi, hell, my girlfriend voted for Cooking Mama and Lana from Hyrule Warriors.

 

[Kenith]

I don't think Isaac's Assist Trophy was cut because Golden Sun was forgotten.
Otherwise they wouldn't have added a new music track from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (the least popular game).

Not to mention Isaac was requested a lot in Smash 4's development (iirc) - he would be one of the last AT's to get cut for any reason other than time constraints, or him being difficult to make work on 3DS.

 

[FalKoopa]

I think a lot of "Casuals" know about the Ballot. It was revealed on a general Nintendo Direct so it's not even just Smash Bros fans that know about it, but fans of all sorts of game franchises in general. Not to mention that the knowledge of the Ballot has been spread across all sorts of websites such as Youtube, Tumblr, Facebook and Twitter etc. DLC even gets advertised in the game itself.....

I think some of you make it sound like the "casual audience" don't even know what the internet is.....

Just my two cent's I guess.

This is true.

That said, the online Smash community probably will exert a disproportionate amount of influence.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

I don't think Isaac's Assist Trophy was cut because Golden Sun was forgotten.
Otherwise they wouldn't have added a new music track from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn (the least popular game).

Not to mention Isaac was requested a lot in Smash 4's development (iirc) - he would be one of the last AT's to get cut for any reason other than time constraints, or him being difficult to make work on 3DS.

I just realized that both Isaac and Gust Bellows push characters off the stage... could it be the reason why Isaac wasn't included as AT?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I just realized that both Isaac and Gust Bellows push characters off the stage... could it be the reason why Isaac wasn't included as AT?

I wouldn't think so. There is more than one item that does the same thing.