Official DLC Character Discussion Thread - Read the new sticky/announcement

[Kenith]

Pig Ganon is great, too....but there's also that potential for him to be a Dedede clone with edited animations and attacks.

How in the even
This could not make less sense.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

How in the even
This could not make less sense.

To be fair, nothing much in Smash makes sense to begin with. And it's not like I think that would happen...but it's possible. Unlikely..by a lot. But still possible.

 

[Kenith]

To be fair, nothing much in Smash makes sense to begin with. And it's not like I think that would happen...but it's possible. Unlikely..by a lot. But still possible.

Dude, "well, Smash doesn't make sense" is like the biggest cop-out ever.
And no. Normally I would say that "anything" is possible but there is absolutely no way Ganon would even be close to a clone of Dedede. Ever. That is ridiculous.

Not to mention it defeats the purpose of why they would add Ganon in the first place.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

To be fair, nothing much in Smash makes sense to begin with. And it's not like I think that would happen...but it's possible. Unlikely..by a lot. But still possible.

TRIDENTS CAN'T BE USED TO SMACH PEOPLE IN THE FACE LIKE DEDEDE'S HAMMER.
Disprove that, then it's possible

 

[Burruni]

. Pig Ganon is great, too....but there's also that potential for him to be a Dedede clone with edited animations and attacks.

I almost want to see how this would even happen.

Because... there's so much wrong on it. Between Ganon Warping, having an arsenal of magic (the most shared would be Dead Man's Volley working like Gordo Toss), and having a pierce weapon instead of a blunt one... etc

 

[BKupa666]

It doesn't apply here, since he's not actively detracting Ganon, but "a clone with edited attacks and animations" is generally just an excuse to demean a character's moveset potential while lazily backing out of arguing that they'd actually be a clone.

Unless you're going the semi-clone route, but typically, stuff like "K. Rool would just be Bowser's standards and Dedede's specials" aren't going that route.

 

[Wolfie557]

Still can't believe there is an Ice Climber costume in Zelda BEFORE Smash4.....
Plus, Capcom has a bit too much mii costume stuff compared to other companies. I'd like Ubisoft to join in on the fun too.

 

[OsirisOda]

I really need to get on Smashboards more often. I forget that everyone I love is on here.

 

[Deleted member]

Never fear, we can always get an Ice Climber costume in the next DLC pack.
Popo for male Swordfighters, Nana for female Swordfighters.

 

[BKupa666]

Also, in terms of editing Ganondorf's moveset, I saw a comment on one of the many "Defend Falcondorf" YouTube videos that I think captures the problem with most of the defenses nicely. Most rely on the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, where a bull's-eye is drawn around assorted bulletpoints to create the appearance of validity; with Ganondorf, it's "this, this and this move look vaguely like this, that and the other things in canon, therefore the moveset is okay for the character." (and then, "okay" for the character being conflated with "the best that it can be," of course)

It's hyperbolic in its examples and a bit angsty, yes, but the point stands pretty well IMO. I guess, in the case of the bottom paragraph, you can replace "charismatic video" with "lengthy, well-written article."

[COLLAPSE="The True Correct Guy"]
"Okay, so basically, moveset is justified because "He's the personification of evil and power". This is exactly the attitude that makes me hate fans of Falcondorf. You are desperately grasping for straws here. When I play Smash Bros., I wanna feel like I'm playing as my favorite Nintendo character. I fight as a character the way he fights in his respected games. I don't want something as broad as "GANONDORF STRONG + WARLOCK PUNCH STRONG = GOOD MOVESET!!!!!" I mean, would that be the best way to represent other characters? What if Wario's moveset was based on him adapting books into three movie trilogies? That'd be uncharacteristic of Wario, but you could argue "OOOOOHHH!!! It's showing that he's greedy by milking a single book into three movies! It's perfectly fitting."

Nobody wants to play as a character for the reflection of their personality. A fighting moveset should represent the way a character fights canonically, not some bulls*** personality representation. How about we make Zelda throw books and scrabble pieces to represent her Wisdom? How about we give Link a cape and make him fly around like a super hero to represent his heroism? No, cause that'd be stupid. The only way people would ever defend that is if Link and Zelda and Wario had those stupid movesets originally and people are just uncreative and nostalgia blind.

Also, saying he's worn out because he's not seeking to rule the world is probably the dumbest thing I've heard you say on this channel considering that he tried to do exactly that in Brawl.

Also, really? Smash Bros isn't Canon? Oh my God. Yep! Smash Bros. isn't canon! Let's just give Link a gun, maybe give Lucina a lazor-shooting vibrator! Smash Bros. isn't canon so it's perfectly fine.
Honestly, it sucks that you made this video, because your charisma just lends an illusion of validity to these bulls*** arguments. People are going to see these points a more valid then they actually because they came from you, and they're going to use them out the butt. I don't understand how some people are able to agree with these points. It has to be some combination of denial and nostalgia-blindness, the two most irritating traits of gamers.

EDIT: Enough with this alienating players bulls***! Bowser got a buttload of change. He's practically a different character. Zero suit samus underwent some significant changes, and Pit had 3/4 specials changed. Would adding a dead man's volley hurt that much? It's not like Warlock punch is actually even usable, so just replace it with something canon! Sakurai and his team don't care about alienating players. Anyone whole feels alienated when a character is changed for the better is also a p****. No matter what anyone says, Smash Bros. will always be more about the fanservice than anything else. It's about different characters from Nintendo duking it out. That's what makes it so great. They way people want to play competitivley should never restrict better character representation in Smash Bros." [/COLLAPSE]

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

As clarification, I actually did mean Ganon as a Wolf-styled clone, not a Dark Pit-styled one. Same basic concept (big character with powerful, long-reaching attacks that have endlag), but all the moves are different in function. As an example, Ganon's F-Smash would have no vertical reach (as it'd be a straight thrust forwards), unlike Dedede's, but they still have similar functions; high power, long reach attacks with some endlag. That's what I was envisioning, not a straight Dedede clone.

I should probably mention that when I say "clone", I'm using the general term (characters using similar movesets with different properties); think a Wolf rather than a Lucina. From now on, I'm referring to clones like Lucina and Dark Pit as "modified characters", since that's all they are.

 

[Talpr1]

As clarification, I actually did mean Ganon as a Wolf-styled clone, not a Dark Pit-styled one. Same basic concept (big character with powerful, long-reaching attacks that have endlag), but all the moves are different in function. As an example, Ganon's F-Smash would have no vertical reach (as it'd be a straight thrust forwards), unlike Dedede's, but they still have similar functions; high power, long reach attacks with some endlag. That's what I was envisioning, not a straight Dedede clone.

I should probably mention that when I say "clone", I'm using the general term (characters using similar movesets with different properties); think a Wolf rather than a Lucina. From now on, I'm referring to clones like Lucina and Dark Pit as "modified characters", since that's all they are.

Uh the difference is that Wolf is actually based on Fox's model and reuses a few of his animations, while Ganon can't possibly based on Dedede's model or his animations because of a different body shape. If having a similar playstyle was the same of being a clone, then Pac-Man and Bowser Jr. would be considered clones as they play in a fairly similar manner.

 

[Burruni]

& are "quasi-clones" due to having similar moves as a whole, the fact that their specials are all "Custom Special" difference and fully share few basic attacks (such as 's D-tilt, F-Air, U-Air, and F-Smash).

To say this out of to

, here are the things we'd see.

A version of Gordo Toss that becomes Dead Man's Volley, okay, that's kinda how the move SHOULD work.

A version of Hammer Charge, which.... would be a charged stab of the trident akin to Shield Breaker? Okay, for the brute feel.

A version of Super Dedede Jump. Sure... possible, I'd see his recovery more similar to a warp but okay.

A version of Inhale...... period I just can't see happening.

Then we look at aerials, Dedede's N-Air would be down-right comical on Ganon. U-air and D-Air are suitable. B-Air.. sure, I guess just because has something similar. And F-Air... would just be weird with a trident.

Jab Combo? No. Dash Attack GOD NO, D-Tilt would just be silly. U-tilt.. is possible, just a simple headbut. F-Tilt being effectively a stab would be fine.

F-Smash would be more akin to to have to work. U-Smash and D-smash just... don't work reasonably with a trident.

Just.... yes, you could fit a number of Dedede's moves TO Ganon, but that's kinda just confirmation bias for others and just down-right mind boggling to imagine on a fair bit of them.

 

[Champ Gold]

Also, in terms of editing Ganondorf's moveset, I saw a comment on one of the many "Defend Falcondorf" YouTube videos that I think captures the problem with most of the defenses nicely. Most rely on the Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy, where a bull's-eye is drawn around assorted bulletpoints to create the appearance of validity; with Ganondorf, it's "this, this and this move look vaguely like this, that and the other things in canon, therefore the moveset is okay for the character." (and then, "okay" for the character being conflated with "the best that it can be," of course)

It's hyperbolic in its examples and a bit angsty, yes, but the point stands pretty well IMO. I guess, in the case of the bottom paragraph, you can replace "charismatic video" with "lengthy, well-written article."

[COLLAPSE="The True Correct Guy"]
"Okay, so basically, moveset is justified because "He's the personification of evil and power". This is exactly the attitude that makes me hate fans of Falcondorf. You are desperately grasping for straws here. When I play Smash Bros., I wanna feel like I'm playing as my favorite Nintendo character. I fight as a character the way he fights in his respected games. I don't want something as broad as "GANONDORF STRONG + WARLOCK PUNCH STRONG = GOOD MOVESET!!!!!" I mean, would that be the best way to represent other characters? What if Wario's moveset was based on him adapting books into three movie trilogies? That'd be uncharacteristic of Wario, but you could argue "OOOOOHHH!!! It's showing that he's greedy by milking a single book into three movies! It's perfectly fitting."

Nobody wants to play as a character for the reflection of their personality. A fighting moveset should represent the way a character fights canonically, not some bulls*** personality representation. How about we make Zelda throw books and scrabble pieces to represent her Wisdom? How about we give Link a cape and make him fly around like a super hero to represent his heroism? No, cause that'd be stupid. The only way people would ever defend that is if Link and Zelda and Wario had those stupid movesets originally and people are just uncreative and nostalgia blind.

Also, saying he's worn out because he's not seeking to rule the world is probably the dumbest thing I've heard you say on this channel considering that he tried to do exactly that in Brawl.

Also, really? Smash Bros isn't Canon? Oh my God. Yep! Smash Bros. isn't canon! Let's just give Link a gun, maybe give Lucina a lazor-shooting vibrator! Smash Bros. isn't canon so it's perfectly fine.
Honestly, it sucks that you made this video, because your charisma just lends an illusion of validity to these bulls*** arguments. People are going to see these points a more valid then they actually because they came from you, and they're going to use them out the butt. I don't understand how some people are able to agree with these points. It has to be some combination of denial and nostalgia-blindness, the two most irritating traits of gamers.

EDIT: Enough with this alienating players bulls***! Bowser got a buttload of change. He's practically a different character. Zero suit samus underwent some significant changes, and Pit had 3/4 specials changed. Would adding a dead man's volley hurt that much? It's not like Warlock punch is actually even usable, so just replace it with something canon! Sakurai and his team don't care about alienating players. Anyone whole feels alienated when a character is changed for the better is also a p****. No matter what anyone says, Smash Bros. will always be more about the fanservice than anything else. It's about different characters from Nintendo duking it out. That's what makes it so great. They way people want to play competitivley should never restrict better character representation in Smash Bros." [/COLLAPSE]

I see your point but what works is that it has a triangle moveset style to all the triforce users.

- Courage: Uses his weapons and various tools to defeat his foes and relies on his sword, arrows and bombs to do the trick.

- Wisdom: A magic based moveset where she uses her spells to take out her opponents and you have to use them right or it can get you killed

- Power: A powerful warlock Brawler who uses his fist to plow through his enemies.

I don't mind him using a weapon but I don't want him as a sword user or relying on those weapons because he can be much more versatile than that and you can keep some Falcondorf moves like making the Warlock Punch a ground pound like what he did in OoT, keep his side-B, keep the up-tilt, Fair, Dair and even revamp the Wizard Foot and Dark Dive to where it isn't similar to the Falcon Kick and Falcon Dive. I rather revamp Dorf like make his Nair similar to 's Nair, FTilt can have the sword slash as well as his Up-air and new grabs than changing everything about him for 'canon' reasons because your definition of canon is way different than what we see it.

Remember
Don't even learn PK Fire nor PK Thunder. Sakurai had to say Paula taught Ness PK Fire just for a reason he had it

All of specials including her customs are all from 's arsenal in Uprising and her boss fight in there has none of that in Smash 4.

has none of her moves in OoT and doesnt do any of those things

FREAKING ROCKET BOOTS. ROCKET ****ING BOOTS. She has none of that in the Metroid games and those were added because Sakurai probably didn't want those horrid looking platform heels in her Other M Zero Suit.


can't do Nosferatu because he can't learn dark magic in FEA without reclassing himself into a Dark Mage.

And the biggest reason for non-canon in Smash is the guy who blatantly supports this.

And don't make me get into characteristics of fighters like with with how OOC they are

 

[ShinyRegice]

While we're talking about Ganondorf... personally I don't mind his moveset very much, he's still a unique character and very fun to play as. That said I suppose it could be cool if there were some elements from his boss battles in his moveset without having to completely revamp him or change him too much. What do you think about those tweaks I'm suggesting here?

- His jab now becomes a reflector in addition to what it already is. Yippee, Dead man's volley added to Ganondorf's moveset!
- Warlock Blade becomes default neutral special, and if B is pressed again during the reverse window, he will immediately do a quick but much weaker sword slash instead, which still has increased shield damage and transcendent priority.
- Neutral air is completely changed, instead Ganondorf creates a ball of dark energy between his hands and crushes it to generate a dark explosion.
- When Wizard's Foot hits the ground, the shockwaves released around Ganondorf are more powerful and they're also visually more impressive.

Your opinion?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Dedede's N-Air would be down-right comical on Ganon.

Welp. GG. Sakurai loves making playable Zelda villains lose seriousness and more comedic

 

[Frostwraith]

Remember people: anyone thinking my article is defending Ganondorf as a Falcon clone is blatantly misinterpreting it.

I did not write that article to defend Ganondorf's moveset but to explain WHY it is what it is.

When I do analyses, I prefer to take on a neutral stance and think from various points of view, addressing each's pros and cons.

 

[Banette]

I find it funny how in almost all cases of character speculation, the character in question having appeared in a large number of games/having had an impact on their respective series from the start, is considered favourable for their chance of inclusion, yet in the specific instance of Pokémon, including a character of such qualities (read: that has been around since the first generation) is frowned upon for the very same reason.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I find it funny how in almost all cases of character speculation, the character in question having appeared in a large number of games/having had an impact on their respective series from the start, is considered favourable for their chance of inclusion, yet in the specific instance of Pokémon, including a character of such qualities (read: that has been around since the first generation) is frowned upon for the very same reason.

It's the same problem as Fire emblem. The characters change so often in Pokemon that if you go back you may lose what you had. Just because a character was in Gen 1 doesn't necessarily make them relevant. When the character pool changes every few years it comes down to who is unique/popular.

Hence Lucario and Greninja.

Pretty much every other series doesn't have that problem so the fan-criteria changes.

Also "muh reps"

 

[BKupa666]

I see your point but what works is that it has a triangle moveset style to all the triforce users.

- Courage: Uses his weapons and various tools to defeat his foes and relies on his sword, arrows and bombs to do the trick.

- Wisdom: A magic based moveset where she uses her spells to take out her opponents and you have to use them right or it can get you killed

- Power: A powerful warlock Brawler who uses his fist to plow through his enemies.

I don't mind him using a weapon but I don't want him as a sword user or relying on those weapons because he can be much more versatile than that and you can keep some Falcondorf moves like making the Warlock Punch a ground pound like what he did in OoT, keep his side-B, keep the up-tilt, Fair, Dair and even revamp the Wizard Foot and Dark Dive to where it isn't similar to the Falcon Kick and Falcon Dive. I rather revamp Dorf like make his Nair similar to 's Nair, FTilt can have the sword slash as well as his Up-air and new grabs than changing everything about him for 'canon' reasons because your definition of canon is way different than what we see it.

Remember
Don't even learn PK Fire nor PK Thunder. Sakurai had to say Paula taught Ness PK Fire just for a reason he had it

All of specials including her customs are all from 's arsenal in Uprising and her boss fight in there has none of that in Smash 4.

has none of her moves in OoT and doesnt do any of those things

FREAKING ROCKET BOOTS. ROCKET ****ING BOOTS. She has none of that in the Metroid games and those were added because Sakurai probably didn't want those horrid looking platform heels in her Other M Zero Suit.


can't do Nosferatu because he can't learn dark magic in FEA without reclassing himself into a Dark Mage.

And the biggest reason for non-canon in Smash is the guy who blatantly supports this.

And don't make me get into characteristics of fighters like with with how OOC they are

I don't want him to use a sword and become Ike 2.0 either, I just want his "SO SO STRONG" theme to incorporate cool magic from canon instead of generic punches and kicks with visual purple sparkles. Even if you defend the moveset's thematic coherence or whatever, it's one of, if not THE most boring moveset in the game compared to its peers, even just those from the Melee days.

Also, I see what you're going for with the "they represent the Triforce" bit, but I think that partly falls into the fallacy I mentioned above, where it cherry-picks moves to fit a predetermined theme, while brushing off the parts that don't fit. Personally, I don't see the plethora of Links running away and camping with projectiles as being particularly "courageous," nor Ganondorf getting bodied by lightweights as representative of "power." Also, those three themes are so general that they can be applied to any Smash character's play as well (you need bravery and wisdom at different times, and every character has some power in varying degrees).

 

[Banette]

It's the same problem as Fire emblem. The characters change so often in Pokemon that if you go back you may lose what you had. Just because a character was in Gen 1 doesn't necessarily make them relevant. When the character pool changes every few years it comes down to who is unique/popular.

Hence Lucario and Greninja.

Pretty much every other series doesn't have that problem so the fan-criteria changes.

Also "muh reps"

I'm not sure if those two are entirely comparable - I had best illustrate this with an example: Haunter is a Pokémon that I've seen on many a Pokémon X/Y team (Gengar, its evolution, is a very popular Pokémon after all). Gastly (Haunter's pre-evolution for those unfamiliar with the series) however, can be obtained very early in both Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal (Sprout Tower at night) and Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum (Old Chateau). Did I mention that the Gastly line is from among the first 151 Pokémon? Haunter/Gengar has been on many a Pokémon fan's team throughout multiple games.

The premier reason for many a Zelda fan to support Impa's possible inclusion in Smash 4 as a playable character, is her status as the only returning character in the series that does not yet fulfill a role in the game - what I hope my example shows is that Pokémon does in fact have recurring characters; strangely enough many a keyboard warrior will not look past the number of a Pokémon's 'gen', and ignore any such feats during the discussion of this particular series (while one would expect a number of generation I - or at least recurring - Pokémon to have this exact 'Impa appeal'). All in all I would say that Pokémon doesn't have it as bad as Fire Emblem in the 'returning characters' department.

For Fire Emblem, isn't it also true that the two 'main Smash veterans' of the series (Ike and Marth) just so happen to be the two reoccurring protagonists? I don't know as much about the series though, and I recognize the problem you describe; to me all Fire Emblem characters are pretty (even the boys), so I can live with most choices.

 

[A Distant Demon]

I'm not sure if those two are entirely comparable - I had best illustrate this with an example: Haunter is a Pokémon that I've seen on many a Pokémon X/Y team (Gengar, its evolution, is a very popular Pokémon after all). Gastly (Haunter's pre-evolution for those unfamiliar with the series) however, can be obtained very early in both Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal (Sprout Tower at night) and Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum (Old Chateau). Did I mention that the Gastly line is from among the first 151 Pokémon? Haunter/Gengar has been on many a Pokémon fan's team throughout multiple games.

This doesn't make gengar relevant though. Unless a pokemon has some actual ties to the game hen there really isn't a pont. Hence why many charcters with many appearances end to not be cared for. EX tingle and ganon.

Lucario, for example is pretty much given to you in XY

The premier reason for many a Zelda fan to support Impa's possible inclusion in Smash 4 as a playable character, is her status as the only returning character in the series that does not yet fulfill a role in the game - what I hope my example shows is that Pokémon does in fact have recurring characters; strangely enough many a keyboard warrior will not look past the number of a Pokémon's 'gen', and ignore any such feats during the discussion of this particular series (while one would expect a number of generation I - or at least recurring - Pokémon to have this exact 'Impa appeal'). All in all I would say that Pokémon doesn't have it as bad as Fire Emblem in the 'returning characters' department.

Impa is a dumb choice
Yet Impa is relevant in her games (or so they say) and is a necessary part of the games. Gengar, in your example, is just one of many many many possible pokemon.

For Fire Emblem, isn't it also true that the two 'main Smash veterans' of the series (Ike and Marth) just so happen to be the two reoccurring protagonists? I don't know as much about the series though, and I recognize the problem you describe; to me all Fire Emblem characters are pretty (even the boys), so I can live with most choices.

Coincedence. Micaiah is the protag of Radiant Dawn anyway as far as I know.

This isn't to say a gen 1 pokemon isn't impossible. Its just nearly everyone is either not important (90% of them) or not that popular. There just isn't any good reason to add one.

Gengar has a rising popularity it seems (pokken) but his lack of relevancy beyind that is his problem. Likely a new, shinier pokemon would beat him next game.


And again, it is a mutated version of the "reps" argument I so greatly despise. It's just instead of hating any character that comes from a certain series it's a certain gen.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Coincedence. Micaiah is the protag of Radiant Dawn anyway as far as I know.
Likely a new, shinier pokemon would beat him next game.

Ike and Micaiah are both protags, essentially Eirika and Ephraim.
Bull****. Game Freak doesn't want Shiny pokemon

 

[Champ Gold]

I don't want him to use a sword and become Ike 2.0 either, I just want his "SO SO STRONG" theme to incorporate cool magic from canon instead of generic punches and kicks with visual purple sparkles. Even if you defend the moveset's thematic coherence or whatever, it's one of, if not THE most boring moveset in the game compared to its peers, even just those from the Melee days.

Also, I see what you're going for with the "they represent the Triforce" bit, but I think that partly falls into the fallacy I mentioned above, where it cherry-picks moves to fit a predetermined theme, while brushing off the parts that don't fit. Personally, I don't see the plethora of Links running away and camping with projectiles as being particularly "courageous," nor Ganondorf getting bodied by lightweights as representative of "power." Also, those three themes are so general that they can be applied to any Smash character's play as well (you need bravery and wisdom at different times, and every character has some power in varying degrees).

Yeah but what people like you guys are asking isn't a revamp but damn overhaul and shove away fans of the moveset. And you wanna know the true problem of Ganondorf;

He has absolutely nothing to use for moveset wise without making **** up. Outside of Dead Man's Volley, most of his stuff aren't as special without making him into a swordfighter or saying he should have Ganon's stuff when people and Nintendo has stated than Ganon and Ganondorf are two different situations and Ganondorf has nothing from Beast Ganon. As of now, most of his moveset can be redo into a Warlock Fighter similar to like of M. Bison from Street Fighter. I rather keep the physical magician then make him into another weapon user because to feel like the games. Falcondorf works in a small situation of "Oh Yeah, I can beat you with my sword or some magic but let me beat the crap out of you with my bare hands"

I'm not sure if those two are entirely comparable - I had best illustrate this with an example: Haunter is a Pokémon that I've seen on many a Pokémon X/Y team (Gengar, its evolution, is a very popular Pokémon after all). Gastly (Haunter's pre-evolution for those unfamiliar with the series) however, can be obtained very early in both Pokémon Gold/Silver/Crystal (Sprout Tower at night) and Pokémon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum (Old Chateau). Did I mention that the Gastly line is from among the first 151 Pokémon? Haunter/Gengar has been on many a Pokémon fan's team throughout multiple games.

The premier reason for many a Zelda fan to support Impa's possible inclusion in Smash 4 as a playable character, is her status as the only returning character in the series that does not yet fulfill a role in the game - what I hope my example shows is that Pokémon does in fact have recurring characters; strangely enough many a keyboard warrior will not look past the number of a Pokémon's 'gen', and ignore any such feats during the discussion of this particular series (while one would expect a number of generation I - or at least recurring - Pokémon to have this exact 'Impa appeal'). All in all I would say that Pokémon doesn't have it as bad as Fire Emblem in the 'returning characters' department.

For Fire Emblem, isn't it also true that the two 'main Smash veterans' of the series (Ike and Marth) just so happen to be the two reoccurring protagonists? I don't know as much about the series though, and I recognize the problem you describe; to me all Fire Emblem characters are pretty (even the boys), so I can live with most choices.

For the situation with FE is this:
Just keep Marth, Ike and Robin and add no one else but them but it'll poss off the fanbase who wants a rep from past games (Lyn, Hector, Sigurd and Micaiah), reps from recent games (Corrin/Kamui and Azura) and the characters I cut out (). Thing is you can please the FE side because it has so many characters to work with but so little of a franchise to have that many.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Can someone please nicely explain why Captain Toad is such an appealing potential fighter?

Because he's a much better choice than Goku, Jumpman, and Tingle all combined

Pig Ganon is great, too....but there's also that potential for him to be a Dedede clone with edited animations and attacks.

 

[Banette]

This doesn't make gengar relevant though.

While I completely agree, my goal was only to point out that the 'appears in multiple games' criterium that many posters seem to enjoy so much is somehow not applied to Pokémon. I guess we can say that this criterium was proven to be silly or at least know exceptions, although that's a different point.

And again, it is a mutated version of the "reps" argument I so greatly despise. It's just instead of hating any character that comes from a certain series it's a certain gen.

I apologize for not directly responding to the rest of your post, but rest assured I agree with everything you said (even hating on Impa ); your final sentence describes more or less the oddity that I thought to bring up, so I'm glad we reach the same conclusions in the end I suppose. Honestly I don't know to judge mr. Sakurai's or Nintendo's way of thought, and can only comment on the tendencies I see with those who dare to speculate, whether I agree with them or not.

 

[Frostwraith]

The idea of Beast Ganon as a Dedede close has to be one of the most nonsensical ideas I've ever heard.

1. Body shapes aren't the same, so it's impossible to port animations from one character to another
2. I highly doubt the sort of situation that led to Ganondorf being a Falcon clone will ever be repeated

On point 2, do remind that Ganondorf's model in Melee had come from a tech demo and happened to work well with Falcon's animations, so there would have to be a pre-made Ganon model that would work with Dedede's shape and animations. Which makes me bring point 1: they don't share body proportions.

 

[Wolfie557]

I'd like Snake back in. But it probably won't happen. :/

Anyway, I want this.

 

[The Novice Sword]

I'd like Snake back in. But it probably won't happen. :/

Anyway, I want this.

Given that the status of Metal Gear as a whole is a little uncertain right now I'd say Snake's return as a Smasher is even more so.

Also, we have no idea what will happen to DLC characters in any future versions of Smash. I'd hope they remain as secret unlockable characters, but we'll see.

Bayonetta is one omy top DLC picks too and her amiibo would be the crown jewel of my collection. Although I think they'd probably use her 2 look since its more recent plus from the game exclusive to Wii U.

 

[Wolfie557]

Yea I think they would use 2's design. But 1's could be a costume! :D

I.....er.......actually want more Mii Outfit DLC. Specifically 3rd parties, so there could be a Rayman one maybe........or Snakes!

 

[BKupa666]

Yeah but what people like you guys are asking isn't a revamp but damn overhaul and shove away fans of the moveset. And you wanna know the true problem of Ganondorf;

He has absolutely nothing to use for moveset wise without making **** up. Outside of Dead Man's Volley, most of his stuff aren't as special without making him into a swordfighter or saying he should have Ganon's stuff when people and Nintendo has stated than Ganon and Ganondorf are two different situations and Ganondorf has nothing from Beast Ganon. As of now, most of his moveset can be redo into a Warlock Fighter similar to like of M. Bison from Street Fighter. I rather keep the physical magician then make him into another weapon user because to feel like the games. Falcondorf works in a small situation of "Oh Yeah, I can beat you with my sword or some magic but let me beat the crap out of you with my bare hands"


For the situation with FE is this:
Just keep Marth, Ike and Robin and add no one else but them but it'll poss off the fanbase who wants a rep from past games (Lyn, Hector, Sigurd and Micaiah), reps from recent games (Corrin/Kamui and Azura) and the characters I cut out (). Thing is you can please the FE side because it has so many characters to work with but so little of a franchise to have that many.

Strawmen are a major failing of the Falcondorf Defense Squad to the point where I have no idea why they have the backing they do, and YouTubers can get thousands of views by just attacking them while failing to see the forest for the trees.

A lot of its members like to say "you people all want Ganondorf to be changed this one, radical way that I am going to paint as undesirable compared to what we have." In reality, the people who want Ganondorf changed have a variety of opinions on how best to do it. These vary from changing a Special or two or a few standards, or both, changing a larger number of moves while keeping the cool old staples, a complete revamp (with magic, a sword, or maybe a mixture, a revamp while giving the old moveset to a different character (usually Black Shadow) or keeping him the same while adding in Ganon or Toon Ganondorf. But oh no, they're all one homogenous group who just want to throw everything away and give him a sword, according to Falcondorf fans (maybe even including Sakurai, given how a sword is his go-to teasing taunt and custom NSpec).

Not being a Zelda fan, I don't know how many of the Hyrule Warriors moves come directly from Ganondorf's boss fights, but giving him some of them, like that move where he pulls a shadowy Beast Ganon out of the ground, would be infinitely better and representative of "powerful warlock" than "generic sliding kick with purple sparkles."

 

[The Novice Sword]

Yea I think they would use 2's design. But 1's could be a costume! :D

I.....er.......actually want more Mii Outfit DLC. Specifically 3rd parties, so there could be a Rayman one maybe........or Snakes!

I really love Mii costumes and hope they add more. They're nice alternative to the many characters that don't quite make the cut as full characters. Rayman is a great example for me personally because I'm too thrilled with idea of him as a full fighter, but a Rayman Mii costume would be pretty cool. Bonus points if it make the Mii's arms invisible.

(A Bayontta costume over full fighter would break my heart, but I would still accept it over nothing and it would be fun)

 

[Burruni]

I really love Mii costumes and hope they add more. They're nice alternative to the many characters that don't quite make the cut as full characters. Rayman is a great example for me personally because I'm too thrilled with idea of him as a full fighter, but a Rayman Mii costume would be pretty cool. Bonus points if it make the Mii's arms invisible.

(A Bayontta costume over full fighter would break my heart, but I would still accept it over nothing and it would be fun)

Get the full trio.

 

[APC99]

In my humble opinion, there's one simple solution to this entire "Ganon Canon" mess.

First off, I've been a huge G-dorf player lately, and I certainly love playing as him. The character is certainly a powerhouse with a lot of unique capabilities. I know that Warlock Punch / Volcano Kick (the up tilt) are janky, but you know what? That's why they're amazing. The most satisfying kill I've ever landed is shattering a Falcon's shield with the up tilt's range, and going for a Reverse Warlock Punch.

However, I do agree there's some certain problems. The lack of Dead Man's Volley is stupifying to me. My idea is that Warlock Punch and Dead Man's Volley become one and the same. Considering that Ryu now has basically introduced the double-move concept, I think that Warlock Punch and Dead Man's Volley would be among one of the best amalgams to include.

Lightly tapping the button will have Ganondorf pimp slap forward, releasing the Dead Man's Volley. Tapping it again will perform the backhand once more. The Dead Man's Volley does not disappear unless it hits someone, and it grows in damage with each hit / reflection (it would ignore multipliers like Fox's Reflectors, but it would certainly be vulnerable to G&W's Bucket / PSI Magnet). Not only does the backhand reflect the volley, but also any projectiles thrown at him.

Finally, holding / charging the B Button would give us Ganon charging his pimp hand with dark energy, and releasing it into the all-powerful Warlock Punch. It still is the same method of attack (backhanding the opponent), but holding it would allow you exchange that speed of attack, for a more powerful spaced tool.

Down Special can act like Wizard's Foot in-air, but on ground, we could see him release dark energy around himself in the shape of his beast form and rush forward. A multi-hit Wizard's Foot, basically, but faster and actually pays homage to his other abilities.

Up Special, finally, is a more unique Dark Dive. Instead of grabbing opponents, he smacks them downwards with a flip kick and laughs as he now goes into a hover, similar to G&W's Fire / Palutena's Jump Glide.

Side Special and Final Smash stay the same, duh.

And, there you have it. His moves haven't changed too much, all while still having the Ganon flair.

Also, no sword, you may ask? That's on purpose because no matter what people say, the forms Ganondorf that inspire our Smash Ganon (OoT, TP) do not use a sword as their own signature weapon. The Execution sword he wields in his taunt isn't a vital part of his character, and the only other times we've seen him use swords are Hyrule Warriors, the Spaceworld demo and Wind Waker, which is treated as a whole other world in Smash. He's not wielding the Execution sword in the same way Bowser Jr's not wielding the paintbrush in his basic moves, it's a minor part of the character and isn't what makes him different from others.

 

[NintenZ]

His about the Blue Birds from Rhythm Heaven? They could be really good characters in Smash. Right? RIGHT???

 

[Champ Gold]

Strawmen are a major failing of the Falcondorf Defense Squad to the point where I have no idea why they have the backing they do, and YouTubers can get thousands of views by just attacking them while failing to see the forest for the trees.

A lot of its members like to say "you people all want Ganondorf to be changed this one, radical way that I am going to paint as undesirable compared to what we have." In reality, the people who want Ganondorf changed have a variety of opinions on how best to do it. These vary from changing a Special or two or a few standards, or both, changing a larger number of moves while keeping the cool old staples, a complete revamp (with magic, a sword, or maybe a mixture, a revamp while giving the old moveset to a different character (usually Black Shadow) or keeping him the same while adding in Ganon or Toon Ganondorf. But oh no, they're all one homogenous group who just want to throw everything away and give him a sword, according to Falcondorf fans (maybe even including Sakurai, given how a sword is his go-to teasing taunt and custom NSpec).

Not being a Zelda fan, I don't know how many of the Hyrule Warriors moves come directly from Ganondorf's boss fights, but giving him some of them, like that move where he pulls a shadowy Beast Ganon out of the ground, would be infinitely better and representative of "powerful warlock" than "generic sliding kick with purple sparkles."

Yeah and that sparkle foot is much funner to play than some punk ass with a sword. You say we spew power and all that junk because the man is literally the holder of the triforce of power and want him to keep that power and I've explain that but you guys keep ignoring me.

And not like it matters, nobody would be ******** about his moveset so much if he was good as he was in Melee instead of being crap like in Brawl and low tier again in Smash 4.

If that's the case then blame his TP design of being fat too bulky instead of buff and lean like his OOT design where it fit moreso.

I'm done and arch everyone jump down my throat because I grew up with his moveset and rather want it expanded on than replaced

 

[Burruni]

In my humble opinion, there's one simple solution to this entire "Ganon Canon" mess.

First off, I've been a huge G-dorf player lately, and I certainly love playing as him. The character is certainly a powerhouse with a lot of unique capabilities. I know that Warlock Punch / Volcano Kick (the up tilt) are janky, but you know what? That's why they're amazing. The most satisfying kill I've ever landed is shattering a Falcon's shield with the up tilt's range, and going for a Reverse Warlock Punch.

However, I do agree there's some certain problems. The lack of Dead Man's Volley is stupifying to me. My idea is that Warlock Punch and Dead Man's Volley become one and the same. Considering that Ryu now has basically introduced the double-move concept, I think that Warlock Punch and Dead Man's Volley would be among one of the best amalgams to include.

Lightly tapping the button will have Ganondorf pimp slap forward, releasing the Dead Man's Volley. Tapping it again will perform the backhand once more. The Dead Man's Volley does not disappear unless it hits someone, and it grows in damage with each hit / reflection (it would ignore multipliers like Fox's Reflectors, but it would certainly be vulnerable to G&W's Bucket / PSI Magnet). Not only does the backhand reflect the volley, but also any projectiles thrown at him.

Finally, holding / charging the B Button would give us Ganon charging his pimp hand with dark energy, and releasing it into the all-powerful Warlock Punch. It still is the same method of attack (backhanding the opponent), but holding it would allow you exchange that speed of attack, for a more powerful spaced tool.

Down Special can act like Wizard's Foot in-air, but on ground, we could see him release dark energy around himself in the shape of his beast form and rush forward. A multi-hit Wizard's Foot, basically, but faster and actually pays homage to his other abilities.

Up Special, finally, is a more unique Dark Dive. Instead of grabbing opponents, he smacks them downwards with a flip kick and laughs as he now goes into a hover, similar to G&W's Fire / Palutena's Jump Glide.

Side Special and Final Smash stay the same, duh.

And, there you have it. His moves haven't changed too much, all while still having the Ganon flair.

Also, no sword, you may ask? That's on purpose because no matter what people say, the forms Ganondorf that inspire our Smash Ganon (OoT, TP) do not use a sword as their own signature weapon. The Execution sword he wields in his taunt isn't a vital part of his character, and the only other times we've seen him use swords are Hyrule Warriors, the Spaceworld demo and Wind Waker, which is treated as a whole other world in Smash. He's not wielding the Execution sword in the same way Bowser Jr's not wielding the paintbrush in his basic moves, it's a minor part of the character and isn't what makes him different from others.

Honestly.
I'd be largely for this.
I just kinda prefer my version of combining Dead Man's Volley and Warlock Punch... partically because it leaves the main move available for his true form.


which is that the punch has far less damage, but it sends out a strong dark orb akin to his combo in Hyrule Warriors (0:20)

 

[NintenZ]

But I see Bandana Dee having a lot of potential for a moveset and other things too, so I'll just support him.

 

[The Novice Sword]

Get the full trio.

Suddenly I actually want to play Wonderful 101

His about the Blue Birds from Rhythm Heaven? They could be really good characters in Smash. Right? RIGHT???

I looked them up and can't tell if you're kidding or not...either way I'd be cool with it. I really don't know anything about Rhythm Heaven so never have much to say in any talk about a possible character for it. But I would be pretty open to any RH character as long as they make use of timing and rhythm in their moveset.

 

[APC99]

For me, Rhythm Heaven would be best w/ a character like Marshall, who could use 2 of the Chorus Kids in other parts of the moveset, like Smashes for extra reach, or a Glee Club special where they appear on each side to sing, and going in rhythm with the song would make Marshall sing extremely loud, stunning opponents. I don't know what the rest would be, but to me, Marshall (or just a singular "Chorus Kid") would be the better choice, considering you can get away with a lot of the more wacky Rhythm Heaven mini-games using a more simple body type compared to Karate Joe or the Wrestler.