DKC2 IS NOW ON NINTENDO SWITCH!!! Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits! Check Out Post 11,371 On Page 285

Justin Little

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So would anyone here love to see a remake of DK64? I would. DK64 wasn't my favorite DKC game, but I sure as hell would love to see a remake or a real sequel to it though.
I really like DK64, and I think some exaggerate the games problems a bit. Anything to improve the game's flaws and bring more positivity towards it would make me happy, if remade.

Having said that, I would much rather see a different take on a hypothetical 3D DK game. Not just different from DK64, but from the 3D Marios as well. Not sure what that would be, but just something that would make it stand out from other 3D platformers. Perhaps it could combine elements from Retro's games (top precision platforming, buddy powerups but with tag team elements from RARE's games, environmental set pieces) and Jungle Beat (beat em up lite style gameplay).

Whatever comes our way, I'm pretty damn excited for next year. Be it a new DKC, or 3D DK. Kroolkountry, Fatmanonice, and Hyle from DK Vine have been hyping things up lately, and it's gotten me giddy like Diddy!
 

RetrogamerMax

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I really like DK64, and I think some exaggerate the games problems a bit. Anything to improve the game's flaws and bring more positivity towards it would make me happy, if remade.

Having said that, I would much rather see a different take on a hypothetical 3D DK game. Not just different from DK64, but from the 3D Marios as well. Not sure what that would be, but just something that would make it stand out from other 3D platformers. Perhaps it could combine elements from Retro's games (top precision platforming, buddy powerups but with tag team elements from RARE's games, environmental set pieces) and Jungle Beat (beat em up lite style gameplay).

Whatever comes our way, I'm pretty damn excited for next year. Be it a new DKC, or 3D DK. Kroolkountry, Fatmanonice, and Hyle from DK Vine have been hyping things up lately, and it's gotten me giddy like Diddy!
I hope more than anything, Dixie miraculously makes it into Ultimate's roster. I believe she is the most deserving Nintendo character not yet in that deserves to get into Ultimate.
 

Lenidem

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So would anyone here love to see a remake of DK64? I would. DK64 wasn't my favorite DKC game, but I sure as hell would love to see a remake or a real sequel to it though.
I really, really dislike DK64. I think it's the only N64 game I had that I never finished because I always got bored. It's just not fun compared to Mario 64 or Banjo & Kazooie.

Now, if they really remake it and fix all the problems, why not. But that would require a lot of work, much more than Mario 64 DS or the 3D versions of Ocarina and Majora.
 

TheAnvil

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I hope more than anything, Dixie miraculously makes it into Ultimate's roster. I believe she is the most deserving Nintendo character not yet in that deserves to get into Ultimate.
I'd go as far as to say that Dixie is the only totally missing all-star. They may not be playable Eevee is a pokeball, Toad is in Peach's moveset, Cranky is a stage cameo, Slippy and Peppy are in Fox/Falco's FS, Waddle Dee is a victory animation for DDD, Waluigi is an assist etc.

Dixie has absolutely no genuine representation of the actual character herself in Smash.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Given the sheer number of comments I've seen by people who have said they only played the original DKC and not the sequels, I do hope that Diddy's Kong Quest's upcoming release on NSO will give people a new appreciation for both that game and of how good Dixie is as a character in it. I don't think it'll necessarily make a difference as far as her placement in Ultimate, but at the very least we'll see more general support for her in all kinds of appearances in spin-offs and crossovers in the future, Smash included.

As far as another 3D Donkey Kong game, I think it would be most beneficial to go in a direction that differentiates itself from the likes of Mario in that regard. One of the things that stood out about the DKC trilogy was how much it zigged where the 2D Mario games zagged, and one of the various issues with DK64 was that it felt like a bit of retread of both Mario 64 and Banjo-Kazooie, but just up to 11 with collectibles and level size. And of course the triumph of both Returns and Tropical Freeze was how much its level design and aesthetics differed from the NSMB series.

Take the kinetic energy of 2D DK at its best and put into 3D? Then you've got something.
 
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RetrogamerMax

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I really, really dislike DK64. I think it's the only N64 game I had that I never finished because I always got bored. It's just not fun compared to Mario 64 or Banjo & Kazooie.

Now, if they really remake it and fix all the problems, why not. But that would require a lot of work, much more than Mario 64 DS or the 3D versions of Ocarina and Majora.
Honestly, I would like to see a true DK64 sequel with smaller worlds but more levels in the game. Make each level the size of a Super Mario Galaxy level and make it clear what the objective is and where you should go.
 

Dinoman96

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I'd go as far as to say that Dixie is the only totally missing all-star. They may not be playable Eevee is a pokeball, Toad is in Peach's moveset, Cranky is a stage cameo, Slippy and Peppy are in Fox/Falco's FS, Waddle Dee is a victory animation for DDD, Waluigi is an assist etc.

Dixie has absolutely no genuine representation of the actual character herself in Smash.
Well, she's a Mii hat, lol

dixiehat.jpg
 
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StrangeKitten

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I really like DK64, and I think some exaggerate the games problems a bit. Anything to improve the game's flaws and bring more positivity towards it would make me happy, if remade.
I think DK64 is a great game. It has flaws for sure, but they're not as bad as most make them out to be. It's a magnum opus from Rare in it's own right. Screw the haters 😎
 

ChunkySlugger72

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While not as good as Rare's other 3D platformers in "Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie", Donkey Kong 64 is still a very solid game that I grew up playing and have nostalgia and wouldn't mind it being remade with enhancements or would absolutely love a follow up.

If there is two things that I might add to a sequel or future 3D platformer Donkey Kong game is probably add some "Beat em up" elements to the game to differentiate from Mario games, I want DK to feel like an absolute powerhouse and beat the **** out of things with his huge fist, pound the ground with enemy stunning shockwaves and grab foes and swing them around by their tail and slam them on the ground. Not really a fan of Jungle Beat (Lack of Rare legacy) ,But they kind of had the right idea with making DK feel powerful and to a lesser extent Retro's DKC's games especially with the ground pounds and finishing off bosses.

Rare absolutely nailed the cartoon humor and slapstick with DK 64 and would love to see that for the Donkey Kong franchise moving forward for whoever takes the reigns, Crash Bandicoot is a great example of where I think the DK series can take some notes from as the upcoming games "Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time" looks like it's oozing with cutscenes of cartoony personality and charm, Probably future games of the Country series can take notes from that upcoming game's platforming gameplay too.
 
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StrangeKitten

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While not as good as Rare's other 3D platformers in "Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie", Donkey Kong 64 is still a very solid game that I grew up playing and have nostalgia and wouldn't mind it being remade with enhancements.

If there is two things that I might add to a sequel or future 3D platformer Donkey Kong game is probably add some "Beat em up" elements to the game to differentiate from Mario games, I want DK to feel like an absolute powerhouse and beat the **** out of things with his huge fist, pound the ground with enemy stunning shockwaves and grab foes and swing them around by their tail and slam them on the ground. Not really a fan of Jungle Beat (Lack of Rare legacy) ,But they kind of had the right idea with making DK feel powerful and to a lesser extent Retro's DKC's games especially with the ground pounds and finishing off bosses.

Rare absolutely nailed the cartoon humor and slapstick with DK 64 and would love to see that for the Donkey Kong franchise moving forward for whoever takes the reigns, Crash Bandicoot is a great example of where I think the DK series can take some notes from as the upcoming games "Crash Bandicoot 4: It's About Time" looks like it's oozing with cutscenes of cartoony personality and charm, Probably future games of the Country series can take notes from that upcoming game too.
A platformer that combines the genre and beat em up well is Wario World. Highly recommend giving that game a playthrough if you haven't already :)
 

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The things I liked about DK64 were the 3 extra Kongs, Mad Jack, Army Dillo Round 2, Dogadon Round 2, Frantic Factory, Gloomy Galleon, Hideout Helm and a handful of tracks. Backtracking is fine on its own, but it was overdone in this game. Mine Karts were fun; Jungle Japes's was alright but it really shone in Fungi Forest and Creepy Castle, which I'd replay often. The concept of Hideout Helm being a grand finale was excellent, and I wouldn't feel that type of endgame anxiety get surpassed until I played Mass Effect 2's Suicide Mission.

Other than that, yea there were too many collectibles. The game is too derivative of Banjo-Kazooie in more than just music; Angry Aztec, Fungi Forest, and Creepy Castle feel like substitutes to Gobi's Valley, Click Clock Wood, and Mad Monster Mansion. Some of Banjo's--or more accurately Kazooie cuz she's putting in the real work--moves felt like they were split between the Kongs. OrangStand, the Rocket Barrels, and Simian Spring are stand ins for Talon Trot, Flight and Shock Spring Jump. DK's barrel sequences aren't fun; they could've done what Returns and Tropical Freeze did with their barrel segments long before Retro made those games but instead we're given 1st Person Mode. The way Retro handlled it made it look so simple that I'm surprised Rare didn't think to do that long ago. 3D barrel sequences would've been excellent for DK64.

Most of the other bosses were serviceable but not really creative. Most had a shockwave and launched fireballs; King Kut Out was Rare admitting they didn't have enough time for a proper boss and rolled with that so I'll cut them some slack cuz it's funny...to a point. The K. Rool fight drags on unnecessarily; Grunty in both 'Kazooie and Tooie were also exhausting, but in the "Can this witch even be killed?!" way instead of the constant cutscenes and pacing problems.

I do like the idea of Cranky being DK's dad rather than grandpappy a lot, so it's been my headcanon since. Overall it's an alright game but compared to Mario 64, Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie it's the least of the 4. I'd rather they make a sequel that builds on its strengths and revamps a lot of things over a remaster.
 

Justin Little

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A platformer that combines the genre and beat em up well is Wario World. Highly recommend giving that game a playthrough if you haven't already :)
I haven't played that game since I rented it at Blockbuster. I distinctly remember they were celebrating Wizard of Oz's anniversary.

You can tell I have fond memories of the game. I think we were late on returning it, which got us in trouble financially. But guess who's laughing now, Blockbuster. HA!
 

RetrogamerMax

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A platformer that combines the genre and beat em up well is Wario World. Highly recommend giving that game a playthrough if you haven't already :)
My favorite Wario game of all time. The only problem I have with the game is I think it's too short as I think they could haved added 2 or 4 more worlds into it. Non the less, it's a underrated masterpiece.
 

Lenidem

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I think DK64 is a great game. It has flaws for sure, but they're not as bad as most make them out to be. It's a magnum opus from Rare in it's own right. Screw the haters 😎
What a nice attitude... "Screw people who don't think like me!! They're just haters!!"
 

LiveStudioAudience

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I think the general criticism towards DK64 can be roughly separated into three categories

[This is is just my take; not saying its at all a bad game or that it hasn't ended up with a lot fans of what it did]

Contrast From Donkey Kong Country
-This is generally where I fall as while the shift from kinetic platforming to a collectathon may have been inevitable given the limitations of the system, the move from more melancholy and interesting aesthetics/music of the SNES trilogy to the full blown bombastic cartoon of 64 proved to be too jarring. Mario 64 changed the gameplay focus sure, but it felt like the spirit and feel of the previous games stayed intact, same with Ocarina of Time. DK64 seemed like a title where so much of the magic that made the DKC games work ultimately felt missing.

Collectibles & Backtracking
-The most frequent knock against the game and with good reason as its where the consistent move by Rare to top themselves in scope finally backfired. Its most telling when one plays Banjo-Kazooie where the duo character feels like such a complete package with all their moves by the end of the game while DK64 has so many abilities split between the five characters that one can't help but feel like the individual Kongs aren't as fun as the bear & bird. And to compare it with the likes of Tropical Freeze, there's an appeal with the latter in how each level could be completed with either DK by himself or with the partner Kong of choices. 64's use of specific goals with required characters makes the game feel more rigid as a sandbox game than one would think.

Its Novelty in Hindsight
-Essentially the view that's emerged most in the years since release and in some ways the one that I think has probably subtly affected its long term legacy. Mario 64 is still obviously seen as a groundbreaking 3D game, and Banjo Kazooie as the title that arguably polished that formula even more. Various DKC games (both Rare & Retro) still stand out for both stage design and aesthetics. and even something like Diddy Kong Racing still has some unique elements that even Mario Kart hasn't touched. DK64 has its size and number of collectibles sure, but it just lacks that same stand out elements that various other games of its type have people going back to. Its a bit like some of the post PSX Spyro and Crash titles in that while solid they weren't necessarily doing anything that other titles weren't doing better or in a more interesting fashion either.
 
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Justin Little

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I think the general criticism towards DK64 can be roughly separated into three categories

[This is is just my take; not saying its at all a bad game or that it hasn't ended up with a lot fans of what it did]

Contrast From Donkey Kong Country
-This is generally where I fall as while the shift from kinetic platforming to a collectathon may have been inevitable given the limitations of the system, the move from more melancholy and interesting aesthetics/music of the SNES trilogy to the full blown bombastic cartoon of 64 proved to be too jarring. Mario 64 changed the gameplay focus sure, but it felt like the spirit and feel of the previous games stayed intact, same with Ocarina of Time. DK64 seemed like a title where so much of the magic that made the DKC games work ultimately felt missing.

Collectibles & Backtracking
-The most frequent knock against the game and with good reason as its where the consistent move by Rare to top themselves in scope finally backfired. Its most telling when one plays Banjo-Kazooie where the duo character feels like such a complete package with all their moves by the end of the game while DK64 has so many abilities split between the five characters that one can't help but feel like the individual Kongs aren't as fun as the bear & bird. And to compare it with the likes of Tropical Freeze, there's an appeal with the latter in how each level could be completed with either DK by himself or with the partner Kong of choices. 64's use of specific goals with required characters makes the game feel more rigid as a sandbox game than one would think.

Its Novelty in Hindsight
-Essentially the view that's emerged most in the years since release and in some ways the one that I think has probably subtly affected its long term legacy. Mario 64 is still obviously seen as a groundbreaking 3D game, and Banjo Kazooie as the title that arguably polished that formula even more. Various DKC games (both Rare & Retro) still stand out for both stage design and aesthetics. and even something like Diddy Kong Racing still has some unique elements that even Mario Kart hasn't touched. DK64 has its size and number of collectibles sure, but it just lacks that same stand out elements that various other games of its type have people going back to. Its a bit like some of the post PSX Spyro and Crash titles in that while solid they weren't necessarily doing anything that other titles weren't doing better or in a more interesting fashion either.
Mostly agreed. My situation with 64 is a little different from others. When the game came out, I remember not liking the game. As you pointed out, the game was completely different coming from the original DKC, and as much as a loved Banjo, that style of gameplay wasn't what I had envisioned for a 3D DK.

Fast forward to- say early 2010s- I popped the game back in the 64, and I loved it a lot more than I did back then. It's still isn't the game I was hoping it would be, but I grew to appreciate what the game does right. And as someone who likes to at least attempt 100%ing games, DK64 honestly doesn't feel as strenuous as some games that come out nowadays. There is some bad moments no doubt, but... I don't know... I feel like I went through much worse with other games, some that are considered good from the public.

Now, I'm in a situation where I now like the game, and the game that was once well reviewed upon release is now considered a "trainwreck" or "killer of the 3D platformers". The later always aggravates because it completely ignores the great platformers that came after that we're coming from Sony's camp: Sly Cooper, Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter. Then you got the masterpiece that is Psychonauts. Lastly you had Mario Sunshine, Rayman 3, and the Crash/Spyro games with varying degrees of success. 3D platformers didn't truly die off until the PS3, Xbox 360, Wii era where the only games I can think of are Ratchet and Clank Future trilogy, Sly 4, and of course Mario Galaxy1+2.

I don't buy the notion that DK 64 was some Boogeyman that single handedly destroyed 3D platformers. Consumers and developers were just, unfortunately, burned out after awhile. And with RARE being bought by Microsoft who had there own demographic to take care of, there was no one left but Nintendo and Insomniac to pick up the slack.

Thankfully the indie scene has picked it right back up thanks to Gears for Breakfast and Playtonic Games (yes I consider Yooka Laylee a success. The Kickstarter was a success, and still managed to have a million players despite the reception.) Now, we are seeing games like Astro Bot, Super Lucky's Tale, Sackboy, Balan, Clive N Wrench, Psychonauts 2, a new Ratchet, and I imagine Gears for Breakfast and Playtonic are developing sequels as we speak. 3D platformers are finally back, and I couldn't be happier. Hopefully some of these games will turn out well. Balan looked super rough. (Astro Bot was fantastic though. More people need to play that one.)
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Its not so much that DK64 killed the platformer (as you noted plenty came out after it) it was more than it was one the last really big titles of the genre's financial golden age.

Once upon a time, games of that type were the thing selling consoles. Nintendo got big with Mario, Sega with Sonic, so many various other third parties each creating their own platforming mascot to often big sales. Prior to Zelda's return from hibernation via OOT and Pokemania making it to North America, the three icons of Nintendo in the mid 90s were arguably Mario, Yoshi, & the Kongs, all platformer characters. And it was the same for 3D versions with Mario 64 being the launch game for the N64, Crash Bandicoot helping Sony get profits on the PSX, and the Saturn's failure to have a major Sonic game as being seen as a chief cause for the system's failure in the US.

However while the 6th generation of consoles certainly did have its share of platform games, the turn of the millennium marked a change in its dominance. The top 10 best selling titles of both Xbox and PS2 had none, and even the Gamecube, often seen as being a natural home for such a genre, had Mario Sunhine beaten by both Melee and Double Dash in sales. Essentially while it would be a bit longer before their actual quantity diminished, both the player demographics and styles of games in the market had changed so much that a platformer was not seen as the kind of release to get people to buy consoles or as the type of title that a large majority of hardware owners bought. After a 15 year run as often being seen as the face of what video games were, the big spotlight was not on them anymore.

Thus given the time of Donkey Kong 64's release coming right before the genre's gradual loss in importance, it easy to see why people would point to it as the element that helped get the public sick of it. While there might be a kernel of truth to that with collectathons specifically, in regards to platformers generally, DK64 was guilty of nothing except being one of the last major examples of one that was marketed and hyped as hard as it was.
 
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InASnowBoundLand

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There's more "DKC" in just 1 Klump nipple than there will ever be in all of DK64.

NPCs were all like pulled from generic cartoons, too.




I don't think these even have a name besides "worm" and "llama".
 
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StrangeKitten

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What a nice attitude... "Screw people who don't think like me!! They're just haters!!"
What a nice attitude... "How dare you be enthusiastic about a game you love!!" Look, I admitted that the game has flaws. There have been many criticisms said about the game, and they are valid for the most part. If someone doesn't like the game, that's fine. But I do, and I feel like it's been overly hated as of late.
 
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Mariomaniac45213

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My stance on DK64 is that I loved it as a kid and merely tolerate it now as an adult.

My pros:

- King K.Rool's characterization and cutscenes. This is the game that made me fell in love with him.

- Boss battles are really fun IMO. Idc what anyone says King Kut Out is hilarious. Dogadon and Army Dillo are awesome. Mad Jack is great, and yes King K.Rool battle is awesome. The pufferfish was the only stinker IMO.

- The new Kongs were awesome

- The multiplayer was fun at the time.

- The graphics. Back in the day they looked amazing and it was one of the few N64 games that supported wide screen. I still think its one of the better aged games on the N64.

- The soundtrack. While yes its not as good as Wise's OST's but Kirkhope still composed a catchy as hell soundtrack I still listen to today. Some people complain the soundtrack is "Banjo leftovers" but as someone who has never played Banjo and have only heard the Smash remixes of Banjo's music that point doesnt bother me.

The Cons:

- The Camera. Like most 3D platformers of that era the camera did not age well and is crap a lot of the time.

- The heavy amount of collectibles.

- Not being able to switch Kongs on the fly. Running back to tag barrels is extremely tedious and annoying and its only made worse by...

- The Kongs slow movement speed. Jesus man why did Rare make the kongs run so slow. Unless your Lanky handstand running or Diddy (and even then hes not as speedy as he could be) you are moving 1 mph in molasses.

- Bonus Barrels. Just the concept of these is terrible. There's too many of them and a lot of the minigames aren't fun. Beaver Bother, the fly swat, the mine-cart, the slot machine are all terrible. Just imagine in Super Mario 64 after completing a platforming challenge to reach a star you were greeted with a ****ty jank mini-game instead. 50/120 of the power-stars are like this.

- The non-kremling/kong NPCs besides Snide. The characters dont feel like DK characters to me. They feel like they belong to any other generic cartoon platforming game.

Speaking of cartoony tones. This is one area of criticism I disagree with people on. Besides the NPCs I mentioned above I felt the overall tone was the natural evolution. DKC while more atmospheric at the end of the day its still a group of cartoony apes going to war against against crocodilian people over bananas. DKC2 kept the same tone but added a pirate theme. DKC3 got more cartoony with its boss designs and the fact that you play as an overlygrown baby. The cartoony nature just gives the DK universe more personality IMO and I dont mind it at all tbh.
 

ChunkySlugger72

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- The soundtrack. While yes its not as good as Wise's OST's but Kirkhope still composed a catchy as hell soundtrack I still listen to today. Some people complain the soundtrack is "Banjo leftovers" but as someone who has never played Banjo and have only heard the Smash remixes of Banjo's music that point doesnt bother me.
As someone who also happen to grow up with Donkey Kong 64 more than Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie, Please do yourself a big favor, Whether it's on the Nintendo 64 or Xbox, Whenever you have some free time definitely give these Rareware classics a go.

The characters, worlds, music and story/setting ooze that same Rareware style and charm that DK 64 also happens to be known for so you'll feel right at home.

If you love Donkey Kong 64 then you will absolutely love both Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie.
 
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Lenidem

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What a nice attitude... "How dare you be enthusiastic about a game you love!!" Look, I admitted that the game has flaws. There have been many criticisms said about the game, and they are valid for the most part. If someone doesn't like the game, that's fine. But I do, and I feel like it's been overly hated as of late.
There is a difference between expressing enthousiasm about something and showing disdain towards others. It's a matter of politeness. Almost everybody here is being courteus: they say what they like or don't like about DK64 (and I enjoy reading both). "Screw the haters" is totally different: that's just rude.
 

BirthNote

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I didn't know some people view DK64 as the game that killed platformers. It's not accurate, as Banjo-Tooie, Conker, Jak, Sly and Ratchet managed to turn heads til 2004, along with Rayman, and Mario always had widespread acclaim with Sunshine and especially Galaxy.

Really, what killed platformers was Halo. That game marked an insane shift in the industry, along with GTA3. Both were groundbreaking titles, and people were throwing tons of cash at Microsoft and Rockstar to play them. Master Chief became the new face of gaming, so much so that developers steadily shifted to 1st Person Shooters because that's where the money was. Sony tried to compete with Killzone (the "Halo Killer") and Activision made Call of Duty, which would become the successor, but I'll come back to that. Same with GTA3; dozens of open world sandbox city games popped up. GTA and Halo proved that games didn't have to be happy-go-lucky platformers to sell; you could make gritty products with guns and action, and still be mainstream.

Since developers realized this they all tried to cash in on it. Microsoft was gonna publish Psychonauts, but shortly after Halo 2's success they did a company-wide purge of anything that wasn't similar to Halo, so games like Psychonauts and Oddworld got dumped on the sidewalk. BK Nuts N Bolts was made because nobody had faith in platformers at Rare or Microsoft in general. "No no no! Gamers don't want stuff like this--they just wanna shoot things!" is an in-game quote, 20 minutes in. Ratchet & Clank is the only 3D Platformer that survived besides Mario and Sonic; Mario will never die and his games are groundbreaking. Sonic's games did terribly and contributed to the negative view of platformers, along with Post ND Crash and Post IG Spyro, but unlike the latter 2, Sonic kept a dedicated base and refused to stop, even with losing a home console and one of the worst games of 2006. Ratchet & Clank took the BK concept to linear levels, added sci-fi and most importantly focused on guns. Insomniac used gunplay as their selling point, calling it a shooter with platforming elements to keep it from being disregarded, and it worked wonders. Jak would eventually shift to guns as well, creating Action Platformers as a sub genre, because that's where the money was: in guns. Rstchet is the only platformer from the 2000s to survive the dying off of its genre.

Eventually Halo got overthrown by Call of Duty, and from there on, if you weren't an FPS, your fate was sealed. The amount of Halo knockoffs made were NOTHING compared to the CoD knockoffs. Activision could pump out CoD's on a yearly basis, which most big name titles simply couldn't try, so they had the genre utterly locked down and a legion of copycats chasing them, along with excellent standouts like Bioshock. Nintendo made the Wii and there became a clear split between gamers: the casuals who played "kiddy crap" and the real gamers who played shooters. The market was oversaturated with FPS's and other genres barely got recognized.

Eventually platformers came back, but not as we recognized them. Uncharted 2 became a system seller and the face of PS3, and from a surface glance it looks like just another shooter. Playing it reveals that it's equal parts Stealth, Shooter and Platformer. Games like InFamous would also mix platforming with shooters, but in that case it was disguised as a superhero genre (Much like how Sunshine has shooter mechanics despite being Mario). Platformers left their cartoony origins behind and started to thrive with Mirror's Edge, Uncharted, InFamous, arguably Assassin's Creed and others. The Indies also started moving up towards 3D platformers, but unlike the mainstream titles they brought the cartoon aesthetic back. Fast forward a couple more years and here we are now.

That's a quick rundown of Platformers from my experience playing games. I grew up during Halo and CoD's rise; I loved Halo and liked GTA but never got into CoD so I saw the shifts firsthand. There's more nuance in this history but I'm not gonna go too in depth as this was meant to be a rundown. DK64 didn't kill platformers, as some of the best in its genre came years after. It's simply that FPS's squeezed everything else out of the equation. FPS is still the main genre, but the market has diversified to the point where multiple genres can now have a successful piece of the pie.
 
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GoodGrief741

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
8,246
I didn't know some people view DK64 as the game that killed platformers. It's not accurate, as Banjo-Tooie, Conker, Jak, Sly and Ratchet managed to turn heads til 2004, along with Rayman, and Mario always had widespread acclaim with Sunshine and especially Galaxy.

Really, what killed platformers was Halo. That game marked an insane shift in the industry, along with GTA3. Both were groundbreaking titles, and people were throwing tons of cash at Microsoft and Rockstar to play them. Master Chief became the new face of gaming, so much so that developers steadily shifted to 1st Person Shooters because that's where the money was. Sony tried to compete with Killzone (the "Halo Killer") and Activision made Call of Duty, which would become the successor, but I'll come back to that. Same with GTA3; dozens of open world sandbox city games popped up. GTA and Halo proved that games didn't have to be happy-go-lucky platformers to sell; you could make gritty products with guns and action, and still be mainstream.

Since developers realized this they all tried to cash in on it. Microsoft was gonna publish Psychonauts, but shortly after Halo 2's success they did a company-wide purge of anything that wasn't similar to Halo, so games like Psychonauts and Oddworld got dumped on the sidewalk. BK Nuts N Bolts was made because nobody had faith in platformers at Rare or Microsoft in general. "No no no! Gamers don't want stuff like this--they just wanna shoot things!" is an in-game quote, 20 minutes in. Ratchet & Clank is the only 3D Platformer that survived besides Mario and Sonic; Mario will never die and his games are groundbreaking. Sonic's games did terribly and contributed to the negative view of platformers, along with Post ND Crash and Post IG Spyro, but unlike the latter 2, Sonic kept a dedicated base and refused to stop, even with losing a home console and one of the worst games of 2006. Ratchet & Clank took the BK concept to linear levels, added sci-fi and most importantly focused on guns. Insomniac used gunplay as their selling point, calling it a shooter with platforming elements to keep it from being disregarded, and it worked wonders. Jak would eventually shift to guns as well, creating Action Platformers as a sub genre, because that's where the money was: in guns. Rstchet is the only platformer from the 2000s to survive the dying off of its genre.

Eventually Halo got overthrown by Call of Duty, and from there on, if you weren't an FPS, your fate was sealed. The amount of Halo knockoffs made were NOTHING compared to the CoD knockoffs. Activision could pump out CoD's on a yearly basis, which most big name titles simply couldn't try, so they had the genre utterly locked down and a legion of copycats chasing them, along with excellent standouts like Bioshock. Nintendo made the Wii and there became a clear split between gamers: the casuals who played "kiddy crap" and the real gamers who played shooters. The market was oversaturated with FPS's and other genres barely got recognized.

Eventually platformers came back, but not as we recognized them. Uncharted 2 became a system seller and the face of PS3, and from a surface glance it looks like just another shooter. Playing it reveals that it's equal parts Stealth, Shooter and Platformer. Games like InFamous would also mix platforming with shooters, but in that case it was disguised as a superhero genre (Much like how Sunshine has shooter mechanics despite being Mario). Platformers left their cartoony origins behind and started to thrive with Mirror's Edge, Uncharted, InFamous, arguably Assassin's Creed and others. The Indies also started moving up towards 3D platformers, but unlike the mainstream titles they brought the cartoon aesthetic back. Fast forward a couple more years and here we are now.

That's a quick rundown of Platformers from my experience playing games. I grew up during Halo and CoD's rise; I loved Halo and liked GTA but never got into CoD so I saw the shifts firsthand. There's more nuance in this history but I'm not gonna go too in depth as this was meant to be a rundown. DK64 didn't kill platformers, as some of the best in its genre came years after. It's simply that FPS's squeezed everything else out of the equation. FPS is still the main genre, but the market has diversified to the point where multiple genres can now have a successful piece of the pie.
I didn't know Microsoft was originally going to publish Oddworld and Psychonauts, that's quite the interesting tidbit! Especially now that Microsoft owns Double Fine and is actually publishing Psychonauts 2.

And great write-up! It's always cool to see in retrospect how trends shift, especially from this "happy ending" where we know platformers are still a thing (and maybe better than ever?)
 

RetrogamerMax

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
8,785
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NNID
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Not being able to switch Kongs on the fly. Running back to tag barrels is extremely tedious and annoying and its only made worse by...
I don't know why Rare couldn't pull this off when Konami did in Mystical Ninja: Starring Goemon:


Surely, Rare could have done this with the quick switching on the go concept with the Kongs in DK64.
 

StrangeKitten

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
639
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
There is a difference between expressing enthousiasm about something and showing disdain towards others. It's a matter of politeness. Almost everybody here is being courteus: they say what they like or don't like about DK64 (and I enjoy reading both). "Screw the haters" is totally different: that's just rude.
You have certainly been far more rude than I have been, and shown a lot of disdain towards me. You assumed a much worse intent from my tongue-in-cheek "screw the haters" than I intended. It ain't that deep. I'm not trying to shut down criticism of DK64, nor am I saying that anyone has to agree with me. I was just trying to convey that I don't think it's a terrible game like some have made it out to be. I don't think I've seen anyone here think it's flat-out terrible, just other reviews I've seen in the past on places like YouTube. As others have brought up, DK64 has been blamed for "killing the platformer" when that's not the case. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say DK64 has received undue hate. I could have expressed my feelings more gently, but I honestly did not mean ill will towards anyone.
 

Lenidem

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
573
You have certainly been far more rude than I have been, and shown a lot of disdain towards me. You assumed a much worse intent from my tongue-in-cheek "screw the haters" than I intended. It ain't that deep. I'm not trying to shut down criticism of DK64, nor am I saying that anyone has to agree with me. I was just trying to convey that I don't think it's a terrible game like some have made it out to be. I don't think I've seen anyone here think it's flat-out terrible, just other reviews I've seen in the past on places like YouTube. As others have brought up, DK64 has been blamed for "killing the platformer" when that's not the case. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about when I say DK64 has received undue hate. I could have expressed my feelings more gently, but I honestly did not mean ill will towards anyone.
Yeah, sure, I'm the rude one. Whatever.
 

BirthNote

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,615
Location
A warrior's grave...
NNID
GeneticDestiny
Hey StrangeKitten StrangeKitten and Lenidem Lenidem we're inching to open hostility. Not there yet but a few posts down the line could take a bad turn. It's fine if you two don't see eye-to-eye but if it gets heated let's agree to disagree and keep it moving. No hard feelings, just keep it cordial.
I didn't know Microsoft was originally going to publish Oddworld and Psychonauts, that's quite the interesting tidbit! Especially now that Microsoft owns Double Fine and is actually publishing Psychonauts 2.

And great write-up! It's always cool to see in retrospect how trends shift, especially from this "happy ending" where we know platformers are still a thing (and maybe better than ever?)
Yeah it's a nice full-circle with Psychonauts 2. Double Fine got Majesco to publish them and Oddworld went to EA once Microsoft dropped them. In Oddworld's case, Munch's Odyssey was their 1st "bad" game and as a flagship launch title that didn't help endear them to Microsoft. Stranger's Wrath is one of my GOATs and they were trying to balance the current trend of shooters with their Oddworld brand. Absolutely adored that game, but it and Psychonauts got shafted and barely sold. Really sucks too; Psychonauts had a groundbreaking concept and Stranger's Wrath had groundbreaking gameplay and they got screwed, but they were my favorites from 2005.

Thanks for the feedback too; nowadays I say platformers are better than ever, on a tech and gameplay scale they've worked wonders. If we get a new DKC soon I'd love to see what type of level design and interactivity they can pull off, because those games feel more organic than most. Hopefully we get a follow-up on the news of this patent real soon.
 

LiveStudioAudience

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Messages
778
What's exciting is that indie studios and fan games are finally really making breakthroughs with 3D platformers, meaning we could see that genre enter another real renaissance as much as 2D one has in the last decade. Just as an example as a Classic Sonic fan, I hope that Adventure Era fans can get games that fill that niche for them like the former games have for me.
 
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StrangeKitten

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 25, 2020
Messages
639
Location
Pokemon Stadium 2
Hey StrangeKitten StrangeKitten and Lenidem Lenidem we're inching to open hostility. Not there yet but a few posts down the line could take a bad turn. It's fine if you two don't see eye-to-eye but if it gets heated let's agree to disagree and keep it moving. No hard feelings, just keep it cordial.
No worries, I wasn't planning on responding to them any further on this subject. I agree to disagree, with no hard feelings. Moving along...

What's exciting is that indie studios and fan games are finally really making breakthroughs with 3D platformers, meaning we could see that genre enter another real renaissance as much as 2D one has in the last decade. Just as an example as a Classic Sonic fan, I hope that Adventure Era fans can get games that fill that niche for them like the former games have for me.
There are rumors floating around that indie devs might be brought on to revive some of Nintendo's franchises. If true, I kinda doubt DK would be one of them, since that seems like something Nintendo would hand to a bigger studio, but who knows? And a spiritual successor, ala Yooka-Laylee, is possible too. I'd especially like to see one for DK 64, since it's likely that Nintendo will stick more towards the 2.5D platformer style they went for with Returns and Tropical Freeze. If the game let you swap characters on the fly, it would remedy one of DK64's biggest faults. Would be pretty great :)
 
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