DK Patch 1.08 Changes

[Man Li Gi]

it can be b reversed and wavebounced, and if you're tricky with it it actually works (un)surprisingly well. There's also a way you can do it running offstage without sd'ing, so it's actually a very good move and already comes out pretty fast. Yeah if it were to come out faster it actually wouldn't make it OP per say, it'd be a lot like aerial flame slap is, but as I see it the slighly longer delay for it to come out is beneficial in many ways. Either way though it wouldn't change things much if it were to come out like flame slap did (actually it would as you can actually b reverse (without changing direction) running offstage and actually hit people coming from a vertical recovery from below the ledge without dying. I do this with flame slap).

Sigh, you didn't even check off one of the boxes with your response. Face it, it's a bad move that will see very little fruition within the meta.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

It's weak but not that weak, and actually the range on it is very good, hits ppl above and in front or below and in front of Dk. Ive never thought about the fact that it doesn't auto cancel (it obviously doesn't), in that I've never thought about buffing that move and what it would do for Dk. Dude I'd be throwing that out, wavebouncing and b reversing it all over the neutral, damn that'd be great.

 

[Man Li Gi]

It's weak but not that weak, and actually the range on it is very good, hits ppl above and in front or below and in front of Dk. Ive never thought about the fact that it doesn't auto cancel (it obviously doesn't), in that I've never thought about buffing that move and what it would do for Dk. Dude I'd be throwing that out, wavebouncing and b reversing it all over the neutral, damn that'd be great.

Seriously, if it AC, then the move would be used by everyone, but I guess only command grabs get that luxury.

 

[Luigi player]

DKs aerial downB definitely is a contender for one of the worst / useless moves in the game.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I disagree, you guys just don't know how to wave bounce with it (more like you don't try), especially off stage. As I said you can also run offstage doing it without sd'ing, but I won't share how that's done. Point is, not useless.

 

[Man Li Gi]

What a strong assumption to make. I for one have been wavebouncing with every character I play, and yet to find any true usage out of that move.

Will doesn't use it, nor do other higher leveled DKS (Neon). U know why? It's a booty move!

If it could AC, wasn't telegraphed, better range, less start up, and better hitbox alignment, then sure it would be reaching usable status.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Given the time Will puts into the game compared to me, I'd definitely call him the more solid player, but he isn't the better DK. There is so much he could do that he doesn't. Also, he's basically going to give up on DK now that everyone (aka the bigwigs) want to get rid of customs.

Here's a random scenario for you. Say your opponent was kicked or knocked off stage, and already used his jump or is coming in from atop and coming down as he tries to recover. When a DK basically jumps off the stage and into the opponent, what is he most likely doing? Going to back kick the opponent. What does the opponent do knowing the back kick is coming? Given teh range on the back kick, unless you're shulk or a top player that likes to challenge everything, you're most likely going to air dodge. But you don't back kick. You wait for the air dodge (remember, you are flying towards them and they are flying towards you) and then do a wavebounced down B. I do this all the time and have been doing it for months, and it wouldn't surprise me if you haven't seen this even once. Given the veracity of your comment I would bet big money you haven't seen this once. Obviously this doesn't work vs all the cast, especially those with variable recoveries like Diddy and Sheik (sigh), or even against a fellow DK doing aerial up b coming back to the stage, the timing is very strict in order for the hits to connect. But against Luigi their recovery is so predictable that it's basically a free kill to run off stage and aerial down b them (it connects so far below the stage it's hilarious, because it hits below DK), don't even have to deal with wavebouncing or anything.

also, I kill people all the time with down b as I'm making it to stage, I'm so good with my timing that I've gotten pretty much everyone I've faced at least once with it. And it surprises me that me and bonzo are pretty much the only DK's to do it. In the 15 games i faced off with angel cortez a few weeks ago I got him like 4-5 times with it just coming back to the stage. I pretty much think its a mistake for DK's IN THIS GAME to reverse charge punch so that they are facing the opposite direction, I never ever have to worry about making it back to stage unless i'm facing mario's cape, as another thing I also do that other DK's don't do is reverse his aerial up b so I actually travel backwards which they are totally not expecting no matter how many times I do it, and I get back by reversing his up b and getting back to stage at full speed.

the majority opinion on aerial down b is so wrong it's hilarious. Listening to Will on this is also stupid, the guy is wrong about this to the nth degree and you guys just copy him as if he has everything down perfect with DK when he is NOWHERE CLOSE to maximizing DK's abilities. I think vanilla DK the most solid player (strong fundamentals) is Bonzo anyway. I'm the one with all the tech, however.

Also, any dks that say it's a bad move because aerial fair or dair is better tells me that this Dk doesn't know what he's talking about, because there is very few areas where one or the other could be used. Each one has its use depending on positioning, and I use the one depending on my position vis-a-vis theirs. It literally makes me cringe every time I hear this uneducated remark about Dk from supposed Dk mains, so I'm just throwing that out there before you decide to say it yourself. I know bonzo agrees on this point 100%, he and I literally throw out the same move vs each other every time (either fair or down b) we try to spike each other, the person who connects is the one who got it out first. In other words there has never been a time I used one move and he used the other. Which suggests to me that we know what we are doing, and ppl making other remarks don't know wtf they are talking about.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Given the time Will puts into the game compared to me, I'd definitely call him the more solid player, but he isn't the better DK. There is so much he could do that he doesn't. Also, he's basically going to give up on DK now that everyone (aka the bigwigs) want to get rid of customs.

Here's a random scenario for you. Say your opponent was kicked or knocked off stage, and already used his jump or is coming in from atop and coming down as he tries to recover. When a DK basically jumps off the stage and into the opponent, what is he most likely doing? Going to back kick the opponent. What does the opponent do knowing the back kick is coming? Given teh range on the back kick, unless you're shulk or a top player that likes to challenge everything, you're most likely going to air dodge. But you don't back kick. You wait for the air dodge (remember, you are flying towards them and they are flying towards you) and then do a wavebounced down B. I do this all the time and have been doing it for months, and it wouldn't surprise me if you haven't seen this even once. Given the veracity of your comment I would bet big money you haven't seen this once. Obviously this doesn't work vs all the cast, especially those with variable recoveries like Diddy and Sheik (sigh), or even against a fellow DK doing aerial up b coming back to the stage, the timing is very strict in order for the hits to connect. But against Luigi their recovery is so predictable that it's basically a free kill to run off stage and aerial down b them (it connects so far below the stage it's hilarious, because it hits below DK), don't even have to deal with wavebouncing or anything.

also, I kill people all the time with down b as I'm making it to stage, I'm so good with my timing that I've gotten pretty much everyone I've faced at least once with it. And it surprises me that me and bonzo are pretty much the only DK's to do it. In the 15 games i faced off with angel cortez a few weeks ago I got him like 4-5 times with it just coming back to the stage. I pretty much think its a mistake for DK's IN THIS GAME to reverse charge punch so that they are facing the opposite direction, I never ever have to worry about making it back to stage unless i'm facing mario's cape, as another thing I also do that other DK's don't do is reverse his aerial up b so I actually travel backwards which they are totally not expecting no matter how many times I do it, and I get back by reversing his up b and getting back to stage at full speed.

the majority opinion on aerial down b is so wrong it's hilarious. Listening to Will on this is also stupid, the guy is wrong about this to the nth degree and you guys just copy him as if he has everything down perfect with DK when he is NOWHERE CLOSE to maximizing DK's abilities. I think vanilla DK the most solid player (strong fundamentals) is Bonzo anyway. I'm the one with all the tech, however.

I don't know where the amount of assumptions you made me about me came from, but I'm gonna set it straight, and lol u think you can beat Will.

My "veracity" comes from me looking at the game from an analytic perspective in which I see the frame data, the range, the power, the followups, and the potential of use in the further meta, and sorry, I just don't see it.

I hear what the top players sa, but don't take everything as 100 as I have to use my own knowledge and test or whatever. This type of assumption does bother me a lot.

To make assumptions as to say I haven't seen let alone use a wavebounced down b is beyond stupid and quite condescending on your part trying to tell me that I'm not playing the character right. The move isn't really worth the risk for the marginal reward you get other than the style points received.

Something dawned on me. I remember you and Radical Larry did make a serious argument to legalize Luigi's Mansion. I don't know if I have to/can take your opinion seriously.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

There's another assumption: that it's done for style points. I don't even smirk anymore when I do it because I do it in almost every game I'm in. For me a kill is a kill and I'll use the best move that will give me this. And aerial down b in many scenarios is the better move.

And yeah bro I love luigis mansion, but more importantly I note you didn't even think about the scenario I gave you and given that I'm not talking about it anymore other than to say that your opinion and the opinion of most dks is wrong on this and one day you'll see a set with me in it and change your mind instantly. Not only did you dodge my scenario but you twisted my words to suggest you had never seen a wavebounced down b, as opposed to one in the scenario I gave you, smh.

 

[Man Li Gi]

"it wouldn't surprise me if you haven't seen this even once. Given the veracity of your comment I would bet big money you haven't seen this once."
Your own words.

Anyway, any good DK would predict the AD and respond with a bair anyway. Bair's reach and overall better move far exceeds the extremely niche uses of the down b. I didn't respond to the scenario mainly because I didn't get if you wanted a response or nah. Also, you having to bring up an extremely niche situation to help your case proves how useless it is as you have to be hard pressed or have gained tunnel vision to actually say to yourself that aerial down b is the most optimal option in the moment. Hell, I would even use fair in that situation because of the range and power it provides over aerial down b.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Why would you use fair when we both already agreed back air is how we are approaching? Now ur just making **** up. And for your information sometimes I do approach with fair, I use every single one of my spikes including forward b and I do it better than anyone.

And as for "my own words", words and sentences are typically made in the context of a paragraph or set of paragraphs, so no, just, no.

Most of my kills with down b is running off ledge (not short hopping either, I'm talking about directly running off) and also when returning from being knocked off stage, by far. The reason the former isn't done by dks is because they don't know how to do It without sd'ing, and the reason they don't do the latter is because they simply havent tried it enough to see how often it's a successful counter edgeguard. The niche situation was just an example og how useful it is if you put your head to the game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Why would you use fair when we both already agreed back air is how we are approaching? Now ur just making **** up. And for your information sometimes I do approach with fair, I use every single one of my spikes including forward b and I do it better than anyone.

And as for "my own words", words and sentences are typically made in the context of a paragraph or set of paragraphs, so no, just, no.

Most of my kills with down b is running off ledge (not short hopping either, I'm talking about directly running off) and also when returning from being knocked off stage, by far. The reason the former isn't done by dks is because they don't know how to do It without sd'ing, and the reason they don't do the latter is because they simply havent tried it enough to see how often it's a successful counter edgeguard. The niche situation was just an example og how useful it is if you put your head to the game.

I said bair is best, but if I was facing forward and for some reason decide not to face backwards, I would then use fair. Not hard to understand. Nothing is being made up.

Yes, well you did explicitly say those words in terms of me not wavebouncing down b. It doesn't really matter what the context was (though the context was something like this "I know how to use this, while you don't") so yeah, just yeah.

I want to see results or just straight up face you to prove you wrong. It can be mirror or what ever.

 

[Big O]

I used to think aerial Down B was useless, but that was only for like the first month I had the game. The extra range, wide arc and always a spike hitbox on the move makes it DK's easiest and most general all-purpose spike. Offstage it's strong enough to gimp bad recoveries at low %'s and KO at mid %'s. The reach on it is almost as good as Bair and it arcs like 180 degrees. It has the most active frames of all his spikes and the 2 part hitbox makes it slightly better at tagging dodges. Being B-reversable and usable no matter which direction you are facing are nice spacing perks too. Aerial Down B is useless on/above the stage, but offstage it is a decent move with high reward.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Not completely useless on stage, allows one to mix up how they are coming down if you can b reverse or wavebounce it at the last moment as long as the second hitbox or slap is given time to come out, and if the second slap hits and they are at the right % it bounces them off the ground. And well said big_o, it's the active frames on it that actually make it more useful as opposed to flame slaps active frames, in many circumstances anyway (even assuming flame slap could spike as well).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I find it so funny that DK's Down special is getting criticized so harshly since I think that it is my favorite move of his. Its the easiest spike of his to get in, its great for spacing, and holy crap talk about shield damage. if you opponent is right on you or is against the edge with his shield its a guaranteed shield popper. Anyone saying this move is weak needs to re-evaluate how to properly execute it and its implications.

 

[GiMiX]

I actually find run off Fair/Dair to be the easier spike options. For people mixing it up and recovering high down B is good for countering air dodging though.

 

[DongofDelaware72]

People can usually see the Fair coming since it comes out fairly (no pun intended) slow. I mix it up and use reverse down-b when trying to spike. Honestly, I say it works better in terms of quickness in comparison to Fair, but it doesn't have the power like Dair and Fair. I like to use down-b because people typically don't expect it.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

People can usually see the Fair coming since it comes out fairly (no pun intended) slow. I mix it up and use reverse down-b when trying to spike. Honestly, I say it works better in terms of quickness in comparison to Fair, but it doesn't have the power like Dair and Fair. I like to use down-b because people typically don't expect it.

All these mixups and options DK has for spiking is why I think DK is one of the best doubles character in the game, when your opponent is focusing on 2 characters at once they usually won't be able to keep track of all the different ways DK can spike. DK can spike from a plethora of positions and it's what makes his edgeguard game so versital.

 

[DongofDelaware72]

All these mixups and options DK has for spiking is why I think DK is one of the best doubles character in the game, when your opponent is focusing on 2 characters at once they usually won't be able to keep track of all the different ways DK can spike. DK can spike from a plethora of positions and it's what makes his edgeguard game so versital.

I completely agree. The only other spiking option I don't use on DK is his side-b. It is rare that you'll get that sweet spot on his forehead, which will require you to get really close to the opponent. Side-b only worked it seems in Melle and Brawl

 

[DongofDelaware72]

I completely agree. The only other spiking option I don't use on DK is his side-b. It is rare that you'll get that sweet spot on his forehead, which will require you to get really close to the opponent. Side-b only worked it seems in Melle and Brawl

*Melee*

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I completely agree. The only other spiking option I don't use on DK is his side-b. It is rare that you'll get that sweet spot on his forehead, which will require you to get really close to the opponent. Side-b only worked it seems in Melle and Brawl

I have managed to get one in (on a really good shiek actually) by standing on the edge right before she ledge snapped. I think I got it in more because she didn't expect it though. I think the custom jumping head but is a better move but the normal one has a nifty shield breaking property.

 

[DongofDelaware72]

I have managed to get one in (on a really good shiek actually) by standing on the edge right before she ledge snapped. I think I got it in more because she didn't expect it though. I think the custom jumping head but is a better move but the normal one has a nifty shield breaking property.

I personally like the stubborn headbutt custom. Although it really slow, the super-armor makes up for it. I'll most likely have to go in the lab to know how to use the headbutt spike effectively.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I personally like stubborn headbutt too, I'd say even more than the vanilla although the better one is definitely matchup dependent. Jumping headbutts not bad but I can't b reverse that so I won't use it

 

[Dsull]

Hmm, i need to get in the habit of using Cargo. Im so used to not even thinking about it.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

I personally like the stubborn headbutt custom. Although it really slow, the super-armor makes up for it. I'll most likely have to go in the lab to know how to use the headbutt spike effectively.

Wouldn't bother trying to spike with headbutt. It is incredibly weak

 

[Dsull]

Im not sure why you would bother trying to spike with headbutt. Its the hardest of the 4 to pull off and its the weakest one. Without so much damage you can just nair them to death, lot of characters can still recover from it.
And how the heck did you manage to spike Shiek? Ive come to the conclusion you cant meteor her because every time i do either i just pass right through her for no reason during one of her moves (any..move...not just her flipkick thing) or she powers through it with a weak hit.
Same for ZSS. Never ever been able to spike them because of their ******** air priority/invulnerability

 

[GiMiX]

Yeah their horizontal recoveries have invisibility frames on start up. I wouldn't try to gimp/spike them outside of cargo shenanigans, they are squishy anyway.
DK's side B is ledge cancellable, I've done some janky spikes and shield breaks on campers utilizing this. But honestly I don't ever look to hard to attempt with that move.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Im not sure why you would bother trying to spike with headbutt. Its the hardest of the 4 to pull off and its the weakest one. Without so much damage you can just nair them to death, lot of characters can still recover from it.
And how the heck did you manage to spike Shiek? Ive come to the conclusion you cant meteor her because every time i do either i just pass right through her for no reason during one of her moves (any..move...not just her flipkick thing) or she powers through it with a weak hit.
Same for ZSS. Never ever been able to spike them because of their ******** air priority/invulnerability

Haha well she was off stage and I was at the edge of the stage. I guess my fingers flubbed because for some reason DK did the head butt. I think the shiek was more surprised than I was at that attack because it sent her down (barely) and she vanished laterally going under the stage lol. If she had seen it coming she would have easily recovered but I guess it just wasn't expected. I'll post a video when I get home. She was a good player too, not some scrub. I bet she was suuuuuper salty though...

 

[Dsull]

Yeah their horizontal recoveries have invisibility frames on start up. I wouldn't try to gimp/spike them outside of cargo shenanigans, they are squishy anyway.
DK's side B is ledge cancellable, I've done some janky spikes and shield breaks on campers utilizing this. But honestly I don't ever look to hard to attempt with that move.

Its not even on the startup, its the entire move either has priority over everything or invulnerable. Ive literally "never" gotten though it without a counter attack. And even then usually they just breeze past me and dont get hit by said counter (also play lucario/ike)
Ive learned to deal with it by just simply avoiding the scenario but it still irritates me that the character i play primarily because of his spiking potential, cant spike them even with sweetspot dair spike.
Anyway sorry for derailing the thread lol

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Alright so I messed around with DK's new cargo down throw and his cargo back throw.

-Cargo back throw
I've found that this throw can kill at around 145 on medium weight characters IF you're playing on a stage with a high platform like Battlefield. You just jump and cargo back throw if you manage to get a grab on the top platform. Other than that option I feel like this throw could be used to stage spike on Lylat pretty efficiently. I feel like this throw was buffed due to the damage boost for more kill potential off the ceiling with the new trajectory of the throw. The previous version was almost identical to the forward cargo throw, and not having much kill potential considering back throw would be the best option.

-Cargo down throw
Okay. So due to the nerf to up cargo I explored with cargo down throw at low percents as an alternative option to cargo up throw. The beautiful thing about his cargo throws are they don't have grab immunity, and considering the obvious buff to cargo down throw it has given us a lot of mix ups in the low percents to really rack up the damage early on. at 0% its as close to a chain throw as you're going to get, but after that they will most likely try to jump out of it which is where cargo down throw to up air is a good option. It's more of a risk vs reward ordeal, but I find it more worth it than not compared to the guaranteed 23% of a cargo up throw to up air combo. With cargo down throw you can dish out a lot of damage going as high as 40% to 50%, requiring 2 to 3 roughly 50/50 mix ups.

I've explored this as well. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who uses the cargo dthrow at low percents for the regrab mixup. It's not so good against a competent opponent but if they like to airdodge then this does work for a while.
What I REALLY like about cargo dthrow is that it sets up tech chases on fast fallers, and if they miss their tech you can dtilt lock them into a 9 wind punch for a ridiculous kill setup.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Wrong thread nothing has changed.