DK Patch 1.08 Changes

[Donkeykong98123]

Cargo Bthrow has a lot more knockacbk the Cargo Uthrow does

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Cargo Bthrow has a lot more knockacbk the Cargo Uthrow does

I haven't tested it or anything and in case you yourself have, until what percents does cargo back throw have more knockback?

 

[Donkeykong98123]

I haven't tested it or anything and in case you yourself have, until what percents does cargo back throw have more knockback?

Cargo Uthrow never outscales Cargo Bthrow. Unless you were asking how much earlier does Cargo Backthrow kill, which is around 20-30% earlier.

 

[GiMiX]

I know back throw is stronger for sure, but because of the angle I'm not sure which is better for this situation.
Especially considering the player is probably going to DI up if you use cargo up throw (to avoid a follow up), effectively killing themselves. If they DI down you can just jump and Uair them.

I'll play around with it when I get the chance and see what's up. I've scored some kills with Cargo up shenanigans at the top of battlefield so if Cargo back is better I'll be even happier lol

 

[CPU?]

Alright so I messed around with DK's new cargo down throw and his cargo back throw.

-Cargo back throw
I've found that this throw can kill at around 145 on medium weight characters IF you're playing on a stage with a high platform like Battlefield. You just jump and cargo back throw if you manage to get a grab on the top platform. Other than that option I feel like this throw could be used to stage spike on Lylat pretty efficiently. I feel like this throw was buffed due to the damage boost for more kill potential off the ceiling with the new trajectory of the throw. The previous version was almost identical to the forward cargo throw, and not having much kill potential considering back throw would be the best option.

-Cargo down throw
Okay. So due to the nerf to up cargo I explored with cargo down throw at low percents as an alternative option to cargo up throw. The beautiful thing about his cargo throws are they don't have grab immunity, and considering the obvious buff to cargo down throw it has given us a lot of mix ups in the low percents to really rack up the damage early on. at 0% its as close to a chain throw as you're going to get, but after that they will most likely try to jump out of it which is where cargo down throw to up air is a good option. It's more of a risk vs reward ordeal, but I find it more worth it than not compared to the guaranteed 23% of a cargo up throw to up air combo. With cargo down throw you can dish out a lot of damage going as high as 40% to 50%, requiring 2 to 3 roughly 50/50 mix ups.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

\Also, just to note, they probably saw the cargo back throw change as a nerf to prevent it from stage spiking easier. They basically want to reward you for turning around and doing the stage spike with cargo down throw or forward throw, but they also know that by doing so the other player can mash out easier. Like I said before, the throws have mostly gained utility in their use against the side blastzones and doing follow ups in the case of cargo down throw. Can't wait to see what tech dks can come up with here.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Nice now just give his arms some hitboxes.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I swear left B is faster

 

[Big O]

I swear left B is faster

It hasn't been changed.

 

[Slowchamp]

Nice now just give his arms some hitboxes.

i wish they would put super armor on his hands, but that's very unlikely,

ive been waiting for an up-smash to get a range buff (to his sides) since the game came out.

 

[Agosta44]

Even if the sour spots for his arms were 2% and small knockback I would be happy.

 

[Donkeykong98123]

Alright so I messed around with DK's new cargo down throw and his cargo back throw.
-Cargo down throw
Okay. So due to the nerf to up cargo I explored with cargo down throw at low percents as an alternative option to cargo up throw. The beautiful thing about his cargo throws are they don't have grab immunity, and considering the obvious buff to cargo down throw it has given us a lot of mix ups in the low percents to really rack up the damage early on. at 0% its as close to a chain throw as you're going to get, but after that they will most likely try to jump out of it which is where cargo down throw to up air is a good option. It's more of a risk vs reward ordeal, but I find it more worth it than not compared to the guaranteed 23% of a cargo up throw to up air combo. With cargo down throw you can dish out a lot of damage going as high as 40% to 50%, requiring 2 to 3 roughly 50/50 mix ups.

I experimented with that as well. It's probably 1 time use thing when they won't expect it, but if they see it coming they have too many options to deal with it I think. Most jabs come out faster than we can get to them for another dthrow, and if they jump then they can air dodge immediately to not get hit by Uair. It's probably safer just to take the free 23% from Uthrow Uair, then after they're still able to be hit by Cargo, jump, uthrow, Forward Air, then they're already at 49% and you didn't have to put in nearly as much effort as far as reading their jump and whatnot out of Dthrow.

Also with Cargo Dthrow, if you can actually manage to get the stage spike before they start being able to tech the stage, you can get a free dair if they choose to jump immediately. It's pretty unlikely to happen since people mash really quickly but it's worth a shot.

@ GiMiX Cargo Bthrow DI Up is 132%, while no DI is 136%. Cargo Uthrow DI Up kills at 169, up and no DI. EDIT: Changed post to fix percents. DI was being wonky on my first go-around.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

If you manage to grab them near the ledge (at higher %s) more than a few times and already did a cargo stage spike you can actually mix it up by carrying them towards the blast zone and throwing them instead of doing the cargo stage spike. This can work because when they are near the ledge they won't try to mash out and will instead look to tech, so by the time they find out that you aren't stage spiking them it is probably too late for them to mash. Just a theory .

 

[itsaxelol]

^ it actually kills pretty decently, too

i just want a patch that fixes our bull****. my two guys, DK and mewtwo, are filled with nonsensical jank that pisses me off. i dont think there is any character that has as much crap as they do. what are the odds? lol

 

[GiMiX]

@ Donkeykong98123 OK you're right I did test this on battle field and the back throw is pretty damn strong.
The low percent up throw mixup I was talking about only works on parts of delphino plaza and halberd. Other than that they have to be well over 100% to get a kill.

Taking them near the blast zone and using cargo down throw can lead to a lot of fun with a follow up Fair. This is especially useful against people with predictable or poor horizontal recovery.
I'm so happy staging spiking can be pulled off on most stages with ease now, it's waay to fun.

 

[Big O]

@ itsaxelol So, the data dumps from earlier patches have been parsed and you were right about Ftilt and Fsmash not getting any changes. Technically Fsmash did get some change (now always hits them in the direction you are facing), but the hitbox sizes were unchanged. There may have been some behind the scenes changes to how people pass through each other that makes Ftilt/Fsmash whiff less or it may have just been me not whiffing as often as I used to and succumbing to placebo bias.

 

[itsaxelol]

@ itsaxelol So, the data dumps from earlier patches have been parsed and you were right about Ftilt and Fsmash not getting any changes. Technically Fsmash did get some change (now always hits them in the direction you are facing), but the hitbox sizes were unchanged. There may have been some behind the scenes changes to how people pass through each other that makes Ftilt/Fsmash whiff less or it may have just been me not whiffing as often as I used to and succumbing to placebo bias.

im sure the placebo effect that you got has a lot to do with fighting certain characters; you get a string of falcons and rosalines, you're gonna nail them each time. the problem is when you get someone like kirby, luigi, greninja, shiek and especially pikachu who's hurtboxes become non existent on some of their landing animations. thats when you notice it

my routine for every single patch, since the midnight release of jp 3ds smash
1) pick dk in training mode and lucina/marth/mac/mario whoever isn't huge for the cpu
2) set cpu to walk
3) fsmash
4) complain on smashboards how donkey kong still doesnt have hitboxes on his arms

 

[GiMiX]

If they are gonna make the damage focused on the clap at least give us more damage or less recovery frames...

 

[DaRkJaWs]

This probably isn't the place for this but I'll say it anyway...Now that I've matured with dk I really just want it to be harder for characters to fall out of his running spinning kong, or make it to where the 1st hit doesn't actually knock them away at times and instead sucks them in. The diddy matchup is one i hadn't faced in a while and I find spinning kong to be one move that deals with his bs, but only gets one hit in and I can't do crap with 7%. I actually think diddy is much harder than sheik, even after the nerfs. Other than this dk is pretty versatile even if the frame data leaves something to be desired.

Btw I did discover some tech with dk that makes him more versatile, it was always there but I never thought about it (and I know nobody else has either). When dk is charging his punch in the air he can actually roll the moment his foot touches the ground. So if you guys want to mix it up with say a running short hop back kick, right after that kick animation ends charge your punch and immediately press left or right for a quick roll. It's unpredictable and can lead to a follow up grab or continuation back kicks or whatever, depending on %s and their reactions to to the initial kick. Only issue with this is you can't have a fully charged punch. A good thing about this is that if you have a 9 or 10 wind punch ready it won't actually charge it all the way due to the minus 1 charge feature of giant punches wind. So you can do this all the time.

 

[GiMiX]

Interesting roll trick, I'm going to try that out. I more or less agree what with you're saying about DK. I still perform the best with him in for glory, and spinning kong has A LOT to do with it.
The armor, projectile eating, roll stuffing move is just delicious. It does suck when you land that first knuckle and don't end up doing much though, you have to be fairly close to them when you connect to the move to avoid that.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I actually do not use spinning kong often (even in for glory unless there is a ****ton of lag), except in particular matchups, it's really not a move one should use that much except in situations where you know it covers all options if you are close to them. The reason I like it vs diddy is that its hard in general to deal with his banana and his short hop forward air. The problem is that i have to throw it out early to avoid getting hit and/or soak damage in with the super armor, but because of that characters like diddy get hit away with the first knuckle. Very annoying when you make a read like that, even if its with a a somewhat braindead move, and you get nothing for it. I think running and shielding is probably the best option with DK vs diddy now that I think about it, but that can be punished with diddy's grab game too.

 

[GiMiX]

Yeah it is a scrub stomp move, but I've found a lot of success with it (especially vs dodgers and people trying to zone). If killed the knockback on that first hit that would be great though.
Isn't it suppose to be the opposite of the air version? Where the blast is at the end and not the beginning?

 

[DaRkJaWs]

I don't know but I swear if they changed that part of it to where its a soft hit DK would be able to compete with the best of them. I don't even care that they can fall out of it while they are inside the spinning kong, just change that first hit so that it isn't hard...or maybe it needs to be hard so there's just enough knockback to where they stay inside if you time the move correctly? It might be a double edged sword there, i'd have to examine it closely. it also varies from character to character i believe, and whether they are on the ground or in the air. I think if you catch them on the ground at low percents it still sucks them in, if they are in the air they get hit back. someone correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[GiMiX]

From my understanding the hit box above him isn't as generous as it appears, so they tend to slip out more if you catch them doing a light hop or something (weight affects this too). If you catch them with a still grounded up b this is less likely to happen, however that's not too useful for this diddy kong situation.

And there's the obvious, if you land the knuckle when starting up-b from too far away it just launches them.

 

[itsaxelol]

I did discover some tech with dk that makes him more versatile, it was always there but I never thought about it (and I know nobody else has either). When dk is charging his punch in the air he can actually roll the moment his foot touches the ground. So if you guys want to mix it up with say a running short hop back kick, right after that kick animation ends charge your punch and immediately press left or right for a quick roll. It's unpredictable and can lead to a follow up grab or continuation back kicks or whatever, depending on %s and their reactions to to the initial kick. Only issue with this is you can't have a fully charged punch. A good thing about this is that if you have a 9 or 10 wind punch ready it won't actually charge it all the way due to the minus 1 charge feature of giant punches wind. So you can do this all the time.

This has probably been a thing since 64, which is why you haven't heard anyone talk about it lol

 

[GiMiX]

@ DaRkJaWs I've been implementing this, thanks for sharing this still haha. Light hop bair and roll away with this is pretty damn cute.
Also, how long has down cargo been an off stage kill throw at high percents?

I've been using it to gimp around 70% as a mixup if I don't go for the wall spike. But there have been several instances where it just killed them!
If there is any data on this I'd like to see it, otherwise I can mess around with mario in training when I get the chance.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

This has probably been a thing since 64, which is why you haven't heard anyone talk about it lol

I know but its funny how something as simple as that is "forgotten" in the midst of thinking about all the other aspects of smash 4. I mean, i haven't seen anyone do it in such a way that its advantageous to them other than simply rolling away to dodge a projectile or an attack while charging it coming down. In this case they come oos and do an attack (whiffing badly) thinking you are still in front of them while you are standing behind them. Plus the minus 1 feature actually comes in handy in this situation and that didn't exist to the same capacity in other smash games.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

@ DaRkJaWs I've been implementing this, thanks for sharing this still haha. Light hop bair and roll away with this is pretty damn cute.
Also, how long has down cargo been an off stage kill throw at high percents?

I've been using it to gimp around 70% as a mixup if I don't go for the wall spike. But there have been several instances where it just killed them!
If there is any data on this I'd like to see it, otherwise I can mess around with mario in training when I get the chance.

an offstage one? well you could do it but it was hard to recover before if you decided to go deep offstage due to the lag on both cargo forward throw and down throw.

 

[GiMiX]

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Kills pretty close to the stage at like 150+ from what I remember. I'll look more into it when I get the chance.

 

[itsaxelol]

@ DaRkJaWs I've been implementing this, thanks for sharing this still haha. Light hop bair and roll away with this is pretty damn cute.
Also, how long has down cargo been an off stage kill throw at high percents?

I've been using it to gimp around 70% as a mixup if I don't go for the wall spike. But there have been several instances where it just killed them!
If there is any data on this I'd like to see it, otherwise I can mess around with mario in training when I get the chance.

just started happening with the recent patch. love it. great on the omegas that have walls for the sides

 

[DaRkJaWs]

just started happening with the recent patch. love it. great on the omegas that have walls for the sides

did they actually change cargo downthrow to where it made them go farther? I thought it was the same but that they just made it to where DK stays stationary as he does it.

 

[Slowchamp]

im sure the placebo effect that you got has a lot to do with fighting certain routine for every single patch, since the midnight release of jp 3ds smash
1) pick dk in training mode and lucina/marth/mac/mario whoever isn't huge for the cpu
2) set cpu to walk
3) fsmash
4) complain on smashboards how donkey kong still doesnt have hitboxes on his arms

first thing i do after a patch is check if dk's up-smash, down-b, or side-b have been buffed. this cargo buff(?) came out of nowhere.

I think 1 way to fix down-b is if the initial 2 slaps have 1/2 as much endlag. anything after that, the end lag will stay the same as it is now (aerial down-b needs to be buffed too). i dont even know how to fix side-b. i guess it just needs to be bigger faster and stronger too.

also. after practicing many hours. ive pretty much perfected cargo pivot off stage down throw stage spike. its something worth practicing for sure.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Down b doesn't need fixed, if it was any faster it would be OP, although I wouldn't mind it's endlag reduced (aerial) when you land on stage right after. The reason it has endlag on the ground is that it can break shields, you just have to make sure you don't slap too many times to get punished.

 

[itsaxelol]

did they actually change cargo downthrow to where it made them go farther? I thought it was the same but that they just made it to where DK stays stationary as he does it.

pretty sure it got more knockback

 

[GiMiX]

It got a percent dmg increase, so maybe it scales. If that's how it works anyway lol

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Oh that's probably what it is then. I never did it offstage like some DK's did pre-patch except to stage spike.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Down b doesn't need fixed, if it was any faster it would be OP, although I wouldn't mind it's endlag reduced (aerial) when you land on stage right after. The reason it has endlag on the ground is that it can break shields, you just have to make sure you don't slap too many times to get punished.

It wouldn't even come close to being OP thanks to 43 frames of end lag as well as being a quake hitbox. When you reach the higher levels, you'll see how useless the move is (unless you face a heavily grounded character like Olimar, but even then, C'mon). If it hit in the air with the same range it has on the ground and could kill, then you have a case.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

The first part of my remark was about the move in the air, not on the ground.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The first part of my remark was about the move in the air, not on the ground.

Even then it's a no. Aerial transcendent moves are bad, it's really weak, doesn't AC, and has pitiful range. How would speeding the move up cause it to become "OP"? They would have to check all those perverbial boxes to make that move not a disgrace of a move.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

it can be b reversed and wavebounced, and if you're tricky with it it actually works (un)surprisingly well. There's also a way you can do it running offstage without sd'ing, so it's actually a very good move and already comes out pretty fast. Yeah if it were to come out faster it actually wouldn't make it OP per say, it'd be a lot like aerial flame slap is, but as I see it the slighly longer delay for it to come out is beneficial in many ways. Either way though it wouldn't change things much if it were to come out like flame slap did (actually it would as you can actually b reverse (without changing direction) running offstage and actually hit people coming from a vertical recovery from below the ledge without dying. I do this with flame slap).