Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Munomario777]

This would only work if there aren't any "duplicates", or else something like this might happen: "I pick Battlefield, Dream Land 64, and Midgar". If the stage list is limited enough to prevent this then it could work.

Could just have those similar stages be grouped together, but in a way that still lets you choose which one you want to play on.

My idea was that the person nominating the three stages is free to choose BF or DL or whatever, but either:
A) only one of the three nominations can be triplats (so if you pick BF, the other two stages in your nominations must be non-triplat)
B) any number of triplats can be added, but they all collectively count as one (so the 3-nomination list might be BF, DL, FD, and TC, and BF and DL only count as one)

(using triplats as an example)

With either system, the advantages are:
- non-BF triplats aren't banned for being too similar
- the nominating player can't fill their noms with triplats to force the other player to pick a certain stage layout
- the nominating player can choose a certain triplat for its unique properties (such as choosing yoshi's story because of its walled underside), which are important to consider

That's the best way to handle it imo. Any system like this should both:
- acknowledge the similarity of these stages, to avoid situations where one player can force another's hand, and
- acknowledge the differences of these stages, so that a player can choose a particular triplat if it's advantageous

 

[Thinkaman]

Untouched mentioned "striking", which is only relevant for finding a game 1 compromise stage. It doesn't relate to counterpicking.

As for the question, there is nothing wrong with any of the 2nd-best-stage selection methods as mentioned on the other page. They aren't cloneproof, though.

That said, given that one counterpick ban is a dubious legacy conceit, I have no idea why we'd move towards having two.

 

[infomon]

Ah ok that makes sense.

 

[Zeth444]

Does anyone know if Yoshi Story´s size was increased like Fountain´s? Maybe they find it necessary now that 8 player smash can be played at any stage.

Partial Quote

Could just have those similar stages be grouped together, but in a way that still lets you choose which one you want to play on.

My idea was that the person nominating the three stages is free to choose BF or DL or whatever, but either:
A) only one of the three nominations can be triplats (so if you pick BF, the other two stages in your nominations must be non-triplat)
B) any number of triplats can be added, but they all collectively count as one (so the 3-nomination list might be BF, DL, FD, and TC, and BF and DL only count as one)

That's the best way to handle it imo. Any system like this should both:
- acknowledge the similarity of these stages, to avoid situations where one player can force another's hand, and
- acknowledge the differences of these stages, so that a player can choose a particular triplat if it's advantageous

Honestly, I find this way to be the best way of handling triplats anyone has proposed so far. If Yoshi Story´s size was increased, we may need to include it on this list, even if it has Randall.

 

[Untouch]

I think a lot of people are looking at the triplats and FD with hazards on. I think that with hazards on they're different enough.
With hazards off though, outside of the weird glitch with dreamland, there's a good chance they're identical (we don't know how these stages function yet).
If randall still spawns, I don't think it should be categorized as a BF clone.

 

[lordvaati]

So reddit posted a mock-up of a stage list which I kinda dig for the first rounds.

 

[Untouch]

Kalos and T&C will function differently, while the platforms are similar, T&C still changes in layout. There's a solid chance that Kalos is the same too but with different layouts.
Outside of Smashville requiring hazards off (it's basically accepted that they'll always be on or always be off) I don't see any major issues with this.

 

[GFD]

And that's inherently a problem...why, exactly? Saying "it has gaps" is meaningless by itself, it's what those gaps do for the gameplay that's important. So how do the gaps negatively affect the match?

I guess I'll take this opportunity to try and explain what exactly my "conservative criteria" were when reviewing stages for potential legality. To be considered for a tournament stagelist, stages should have a single, solid, stationary piece of terrain, with no walls or ceilings, and two ledges, one each on both the top-left and top-right; zero or more soft platforms above the previously mentioned solid terrain, with no ledges; and no especially disruptive extra "hazards".
This is not an especially restrictive format, but even as such, there are some stages in my list for consideration that technically break outside of this format:

• Rainbow Cruise has a wall, though not especially tall. It may be worthwhile to include regardless, as it contributes a very unique layout.
• Yoshi's Story has Randall below the top of the solid terrain, but it does not go underneath of the stage. I suppose the definition could be amended to say platforms "cannot be below the solid terrain". But this is a defining feature of this single stage, and is not especially disruptive or unpredictable. Other stages also have platforms that go far beyond the left and right extremes of the solid terrain, particularly Smashville. However, I get the feeling that including this stage in stage lists would primarily be for the Melee nostalgia, as it doesn't have a lot of merits. It's just another tri-plat, and Randall is kind of a detrimental feature.
• Halberd could still have the transformations, which means the solid terrain is not stationary, and the stage would sometimes have a semisolid base. This would make it the most disruptive stage in the list by far, and I would be very wary of it, but it's worth testing out regardless. In the unlikely case that it's only the bridge section, however, it's easily legal. If it's only the floating section, I would ban it outright, because it would have a semisolid platform all the time.

I felt these inclusions still made my stage list fairly "liberal", but to each their own.
I'll try to reason as to why there cannot be multiple solid pieces of terrain in a legal stage. If two fighters are on opposite sides of a "gap", they cannot use purely ground-based approaches at all anymore, as they must go airborne in order to reach their opponent. This is an extremely drastic change in fundamental tactics compared to any other stage, and would make such a stage very polarizing. Depending on the size of the gap, even short-hops might not be able to clear it, which means a full-hop into the air would be necessary, leaving whoever decides to do this extremely vulnerable. Even if there is a soft platform going across the gap (as in Reset Bomb Forest), being forced onto a platform above your opponent is often a disadvantageous position to be in. If the gap has ledges on both sides, that also introduces some extremely unusual ledge tactics that wouldn't be necessary to deal with on any other stage.

 

[Zeth444]

So reddit posted a mock-up of a stage list which I kinda dig for the first rounds.

View attachment 157577

Besides prefering bans over vetos, I dig this stage list.
The stage list will probably increase - mostly because of those Misc stage -, but it will probably go down over Ultimate´s first year.
I must only question 3 things:

• Does hazardless Unova remove the walkoffs? It doesnt seem consistent with what we have seen so far from hazardless stages.
• Is that really Halberd´s hazardless form? Even so, I think blastzones, platform legth and lack of Rendall-wannabe is enough to make it a different stage.
• Same question regarding Halberd, but about Kalos.

 

[Untouch]

Besides prefering bans over vetos, I dig this stage list.
The stage list will probably increase - mostly because of those Misc stage -, but it will probably go down over Ultimate´s first year.
I must only question 3 things:

• Does hazardless Unova remove the walkoffs? It doesnt seem consistent with what we have seen so far from hazardless stages.
• Is that really Halberd´s hazardless form? Even so, I think blastzones, platform legth and lack of Rendall-wannabe is enough to make it a different stage.
• Same question regarding Halberd, but about Kalos.

All of these are just using assumptions but:

• Unova doesn't start with the platforms attached, so far all hazardless options result in the stage never "changing", so it's safe to assume they don't spawn.
• We don't know, I don't think it'll work like this. It'll likely function similarly to how the stage works, but with no Laser/Hook. Just basing this on how Prism Tower works.
• Again another guess, but there's a solid chance that it'll work like Town and City does, where the platforms change but that's it.

 

[Thinkaman]

The fastest and easiest stage select process is none.

If Great Plateau isn't legal--the most mundane stage possible with something remotely different--then let's discard any pretense that we want mechanical diversity and only play on Battlefields.

 

[NewGuy79]

This would only work if there aren't any "duplicates", or else something like this might happen: "I pick Battlefield, Dream Land 64, and Midgar". If the stage list is limited enough to prevent this then it could work.

I agree with this up to the point that the problem of duplicate stages should be handled through the stages themselves and not the selection process.

If Midgar, Battlefield and Dreamland64 (hazardless) are found to be identical in nature I feel as if a stipulation should be attached to these stages, primarily that they are interchangeable. I say this because it would be impossible to create an overarching rule set that would be able to meet all of the standards were making, at some point we need to look at the stages and determine house rule around problematic situations rather than a mystical rule set that solves every problem on its own.

aka. purely identical stages should be grouped together and made interchangeably, it would be near impossible to create a single ruleset that could deal with a large roster and identical stages if they are counted individually.

 

[Untouch]

Honestly if the weird stage properties still exist I'm up for banning dreamland (hazardless) altogether, just to make things less complicated, if it's just going to function like battlefield but with jank.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Edit: Actually, on second thought I really like looking into using Stage Morph to keep things fair.

 

[Galgatha]

So reddit posted a mock-up of a stage list which I kinda dig for the first rounds.

View attachment 157577

No jungle Japes? No Reset Bomb Forrest? No go!

So, I decided to take some time, take a look at the entire stage list currently on the Smash website, and (going with stage hazards toggled off) came up with a rather liberal list of possible legal stages. It's freaking huge, with multiple as unsure or unlikely, but I decided to add them anyway. There aren't any starter/counter pick stages, as personally I am against that entire ideology.

Basically, this list of something I want to test out in competitive play, and then trim as necessary depending on how the game goes. I realize alot of you will probably disagree with me on many of these though lol. Below is the list:

1) Battlefield 2) Final Destination 3) Super Happy Tree (?) 4) Dreamland 5) Kongo Falls (??) 6) Jungle Japes 7) Brinstar (?) 8) Yoshi's Story 9) Fountain of Dreams 10) Green Greens 11) Pokemon Stadium 12) Delfino Plaza (?) 13) Wario Ware Inc 14) Frigate Orhpeon 15) Yoshi's Island 16) Halberd (?) 17) Lylat Cruise 18) Pokemon Stadium 2 19) Castle Siege 20) Smashville 21) Pirate Ship (??) 22) Unova Pokemon League 23) Prism Tower 24) Magicant (??) 25) Arena Ferox (??) 26) Reset Bomb Forrest 27) Find Mii 28) Mushroom Kingdom U 29) Skyloft (?) 30) Kalos Pokemon League 31) Town and City 32) Wuhu Island (??) 33) Willy's Castle (?) 34) Midgar 35) Great Plateau Tower (??) 36) Dracula's Castle (?)

[ Single ? means unsure, double ? means unlikely]

 

[Deathcarter]

So reddit posted a mock-up of a stage list which I kinda dig for the first rounds.

Assuing hazard off Lylat Cruise has no tipping, Smashville and Final Destination being starters while Warioware and Lylat are reduced to counterpicks would just be absolute proof of just how arbitrary and obtuse the mindset surrounding competitive smash is given Smashville jank and how unbalanced Final Destination is.

 

[Metal B]

Those three stages could also become legal, depending of there default layout, if you deactivate hazards.
Gamer can have variations without caves of live. 8-Volt will properly not appear.
Mario Maker can also have variations without walk-offs, lava and walls.
Wrecking Crew could have only a few floors and maybe no ladders (if they are even a problem at all). Bombs and barrel a very likely gone.

 

[dav3yb]

Those three stages could also become legal, depending of there default layout, if you deactivate hazards.
Gamer can have variations without caves of live. 8-Volt will properly not appear.
Mario Maker can also have variations without walk-offs, lava and walls.
Wrecking Crew could have only a few floors and maybe no ladders (if they are even a problem at all). Bombs and barrel a very likely gone.

In the criteria for legal stages i made, i mentioned stages without consistent layouts not being legal, i had forgotten about gamer, but mario makers falls under this as well. I think the main issue with wrecking crew will be the huge verticality of it, and if it keeps the ladders then it would just be really awkward.

If gamer didn't have some variations of it that had caves of life i would honestly say it'd be fine though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I can't really see Wrecking Crew being legal even with hazards off, unless it limits itself to only two floors' worth of platforms. Otherwise it goes all the way to the top and that's just asking for trouble.

Gamer will definitely not have Mom but it remains to be seen what the toggle will do to it and Mario Maker's layouts. Add it to the list of things to test at launch. (...there isn't one yet, is there?)

 

[IsmaR]

We already have hazardless Wrecking Crew.

It was rarely (if ever) legal in any 3DS stagelists.

 

[IndigoSSB]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/983vvc/the_smash_front_room_discussion_and_poll_for/

Just linking this here for exposure and thoughts on this proposed ruleset. I recommend reading it yourself but TLDR: the ruleset called Full List Partial Striking where both players take turns banning from the full stage list (so no "starter" or "counterpick" stages) until you're left with about half the list. Then for the entire set the stages are randomized from the remaining pool of stages.

This thread in general (not everyone obviously) seems to be anti-CPing and this seems like a fair alternative that also accommodates the larger stage list we'll inevitably have.

 

[Freecs]

Is hazardless Wily’s Castle going to be a neutral pick? I feel like that would be the coolest legal stage because it has those classic Mega Man 1 platforms.

 

[dav3yb]

Is hazardless Wily’s Castle going to be a neutral pick? I feel like that would be the coolest legal stage because it has those classic Mega Man 1 platforms.

Unless something changes in a later build, hazards off removes yellow devil AND the platforms, sadly.

 

[DJ3DS]

DtJ Glyphmoney , I'm tagging you in this because I believe you're the one who posted this reddit thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/983vvc/the_smash_front_room_discussion_and_poll_for/

Just linking this here for exposure and thoughts on this proposed ruleset. I recommend reading it yourself but TLDR: the ruleset called Full List Partial Striking where both players take turns banning from the full stage list (so no "starter" or "counterpick" stages) until you're left with about half the list. Then for the entire set the stages are randomized from the remaining pool of stages.

This thread in general (not everyone obviously) seems to be anti-CPing and this seems like a fair alternative that also accommodates the larger stage list we'll inevitably have.

I'm a personal fan of this proposed ruleset in and of itself. It's easy to understand and implement (would be even easier if someone just makes a phone app that does stage striking like e.g. Anther's Ladder already does) and crucially seems to accommodate every players personal dislikes. I don't ever want to play Smashville again, and under this ruleset I wouldn't have to. I really want to be able to play the likes of Prism Tower; under this ruleset I'd have this opportunity whereas people who are dubious on the stage don't have to go near it. It's a good compromise to the many different viewpoints on which the most appropriate stages are.

If I have one worry it's something that's largely independent of the striking procedure; namely how conservative people are going to be with the main stagelist. As an example, in the protected ruleset discussion I have seen prominent community figures arguing that stages like TC and LC should be banned. This is something I am staunchly against, and would rather not see gain traction.

It's my assumption that this kind of ultra conservative stage banning is not likely to come alongside FLiPS - largely because if the final stagelist was so conservative, there would be no big need for a new method of stage selection - but the possibility of it is probably my only real remaining concern.

 

[Untouch]

An idea I had was this.
The "true starter" pool is 3 stages. FD, BF and another (may YI Brawl). From that point the two players each pick a stage from the counterpick, then the normal striking occurs, this is for the first game.
All games after that use the 3-2-1 rule, the loser picks 3 stages, the winner strikes one stage, then the loser picks the stage from the 2 remaining stages.

I feel that you'd get a greater focus on "counterpicks" and would allow a larger, more liberal stagelist. Only problem I can think of is coming up with the 3 most "true neutral" stages.

 

[Galgatha]

FLiPS sounds like a good idea, but the issue becomes time consuming. Would this be at the start of every set, and the bans be perma bans? If so, I can get on with that.

 

[IndigoSSB]

The striking only happens at the start of the set, there's no banning or CPing. Also it's understandable to be concerned about conservative views, but that's only going to come naturally when implementing a radical change. A ruleset like this would definitely need a push early on or else TOs will just default to the standard CP system.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/983vvc/the_smash_front_room_discussion_and_poll_for/

Just linking this here for exposure and thoughts on this proposed ruleset. I recommend reading it yourself but TLDR: the ruleset called Full List Partial Striking where both players take turns banning from the full stage list (so no "starter" or "counterpick" stages) until you're left with about half the list. Then for the entire set the stages are randomized from the remaining pool of stages.

This thread in general (not everyone obviously) seems to be anti-CPing and this seems like a fair alternative that also accommodates the larger stage list we'll inevitably have.

You've got the core idea down, but the only stage that would be randomized would be Game 1. Game 2 and 3 would be chosen from that remaining pool by the loser, either with no bans or with 1 ban depending on how whoever is TOing decides to lean.

Something we haven't had a chance to talk about much outside of the podcast in that link, is the big issues that comes from having stages called counterpicks in the first place. I'm probably retreading ground that Amazing Ampharos has already covered many times, but by having a set of stages that's focused on for Game 1, you make those stages the only ones that you should really focus on practicing. If you can win on those stages, you have advantage for Game 1, and then again Game 3 where you CP to one of them again. This is a very barebones version of that argument, but the point is that when Game 1 holds so much weight in a set, those stages quickly become the ONLY stages people seek out.

That's a huge strength of FLiPS. We don't have starter stages and 'soon to be banned' stages, just... stages. No single one is inherently favored over another, so players are free to focus on the ones that they feel give their characters the best edge.



Oh, and on a related subject, we've also put together a poll on a number of hot topics for Ultimate's ruleset. This isn't included in it (though it will be in a later edition), but please take a look and fill it out if you haven't already!
https://twitter.com/SmashFrontRoom/status/1030504473939111938

 

[lordvaati]

Yeah I think the days of favored stages are nigh. FD was dangerously close to being deoted to a CP before, and despite claims of being the most balanced stage in theory Smashville has been exploited 2 games in a row by some of the higher ups in the roster.

With how immense the options nare now an overhaul of our old system is certainly in order.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah I think the days of favored stages are nigh. FD was dangerously close to being deoted to a CP before, and despite claims of being the most balanced stage in theory Smashville has been exploited 2 games in a row by some of the higher ups in the roster.

With how immense the options nare now an overhaul of our old system is certainly in order.

I've been glossing over most Smash 4 events lately. What happened on Smashville to call its balance into question?

 

[Untouch]

I've been glossing over most Smash 4 events lately. What happened on Smashville to call its balance into question?

From what I always watched in competitive smash 4, the platform is very campable, especially with certain characters like sonic.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've been glossing over most Smash 4 events lately. What happened on Smashville to call its balance into question?

In Brawl it was just excellent for MK, and wasn't exactly fun in most ICs matchups.

In 4 it favored Sheik, Sonic, and probably Cloud and Ness a decent amount in most matchups, in ways that could be described as annoying. It was also Little Mac's worst stage besides Duck Hunt, and was probably worse than DH in some matchups.

I do think Smashville is a good stage, one of the best, but let's just not put it on a pedestal as the paragon of balance.

I think that subjectively Smash 4 Battlefield is probably the "most neutral" stage in any smash game ever, but it still has plenty of biases, almost as many as Smashville.

 

[Galgatha]

Yeah I think the days of favored stages are nigh. FD was dangerously close to being deoted to a CP before, and despite claims of being the most balanced stage in theory Smashville has been exploited 2 games in a row by some of the higher ups in the roster.

With how immense the options nare now an overhaul of our old system is certainly in order.

I agree. I think that we as a communiy are moving away from this idea of "starter/counterpick" stages and separating them, and just keeping it to 1 large legal stage list. What that stage is list, we are all still arguing about lol.

My most recent list, which I have posted in this thread, maxed at I think 36, which granted not all would be legal. But even to have 20 legal stages would be huge. We, as a community, need to start trying to make Ultimate fit in with the rule-set that we have made fro Smash 4, and make our rule-set fit to Ultimate. It simply wont work the other way around, and it would be bare bones and simply stupid at best.

I think, the best option as a community moving forward, would be to start off with as large a legal stage list as possible in the begining, and then start chopping stages out 1 by 1 when actual problems arise. Not theorized problems like "spaces between platforms" (which I swear is probably one of the dumbest reasons as to why a stage can't be legal). Fact is, other than a select number of stages that have been shown to us with Hazards off, we can't say completely which stages would cause a problem in a tournament setting.

Then, lol, of course we have the new Stage Morph, which would be awesome to watch in tournaments, but that is a different topic.

 

[dav3yb]

I've been trying to sit down and make a list of stages, not necessarily for tournaments, but broken down into things that most people shouldn't have issues with, and then any that I think a lot of people would consider fine, but other's might take some minor issue with. It's not too easy, but here's the first list I made up, with some notes beside some stages that may or may not play out once we get our hands on the game. It's honestly just too hard to make anything really defined right now without knowing exactly how the hazard toggle with effect most of these stages... FFS nintendo, let people play on hazards off stages at your little invites!

Spoiler: some stages

1. Battlefield
2. Final Destination
3. Peach’s Castle* (If hazards off removes the bumper)
4. Super Happy Tree (If hazards off removes the side clouds)
5. Dreamland (BF Echo)
6. Saffron City*
7. Princess Peach’s Castle*
8. Rainbow Cruise (If hazards off keeps just the base cruise ship)
9. Kongo Falls*
10. Jungle Japes* (If hazards off removes water/klaptrap)
11. Brinstar
12. Yoshi’s Story
13. Fountain of Dreams (BF Echo if hazards off prevents platforms from moving)
14. Green Greens*
15. Pokemon Stadium (2)
16. Delfino Plaza*
17. WarioWare, Inc.
18. Norfair
19. Frigate Orpheon
20. Yoshi’s Island
21. Halberd*
22. Lylat Cruise
23. Castle Siege (if hazards off prevents transforming)
24. Smashville (sigh)
25. Unova Pokemon League (if hazards off removes/prevents walkoffs)
26. Prism Tower*
27. Arena Ferox*
28. Reset Bomb Forest (If hazards off prevents transforming)
29. Find Mii*
30. Mushroom Kingdom U*
31. Mario Circuit*
32. Skyloft*
33. Kalos Pokemon League
34. Town and City (sigh)
35. Wuhu Island*
36. Midgar (BF echo)
37. New Donk City Hall*
38. Dracula’s Castle* (Assuming there is no right side walkoff, which there doesn't appear to be as of now)

Most of these stages I feel there aren't enough issues with to completely warrant being disregarded at this point in time. Anything with an asterisk(*) by it are ones with some features people have voiced concern with, or there might not be enough information on how the stage will act with hazards off, and need some more testing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've been trying to sit down and make a list of stages, not necessarily for tournaments, but broken down into things that most people shouldn't have issues with, and then any that I think a lot of people would consider fine, but other's might take some minor issue with. It's not too easy, but here's the first list I made up, with some notes beside some stages that may or may not play out once we get our hands on the game. It's honestly just too hard to make anything really defined right now without knowing exactly how the hazard toggle with effect most of these stages... FFS nintendo, let people play on hazards off stages at your little invites!

Spoiler: some stages

1. Battlefield
2. Final Destination
3. Peach’s Castle* (If hazards off removes the bumper)
4. Super Happy Tree (If hazards off removes the side clouds)
5. Dreamland (BF Echo)
6. Saffron City*
7. Princess Peach’s Castle*
8. Rainbow Cruise (If hazards off keeps just the base cruise ship)
9. Kongo Falls*
10. Jungle Japes* (If hazards off removes water/klaptrap)
11. Brinstar
12. Yoshi’s Story
13. Fountain of Dreams (BF Echo if hazards off prevents platforms from moving)
14. Green Greens*
15. Pokemon Stadium (2)
16. Delfino Plaza*
17. WarioWare, Inc.
18. Norfair
19. Frigate Orpheon
20. Yoshi’s Island
21. Halberd*
22. Lylat Cruise
23. Castle Siege (if hazards off prevents transforming)
24. Smashville (sigh)
25. Unova Pokemon League (if hazards off removes/prevents walkoffs)
26. Prism Tower*
27. Arena Ferox*
28. Reset Bomb Forest (If hazards off prevents transforming)
29. Find Mii*
30. Mushroom Kingdom U*
31. Mario Circuit*
32. Skyloft*
33. Kalos Pokemon League
34. Town and City (sigh)
35. Wuhu Island*
36. Midgar (BF echo)
37. New Donk City Hall*
38. Dracula’s Castle* (Assuming there is no right side walkoff, which there doesn't appear to be as of now)

Most of these stages I feel there aren't enough issues with to completely warrant being disregarded at this point in time. Anything with an asterisk(*) by it are ones with some features people have voiced concern with, or there might not be enough information on how the stage will act with hazards off, and need some more testing.

That looks like a pretty reasonable list. The only omission I can think of that merits at least passing consideration is Gamer, pending what the hazard toggle does to its randomized layout.

It pains me to exclude Magicant from these lists but that platform underneath everything kills it. The likes of Jigglypuff would have a field day pitching a tent and setting up camp.

 

[dav3yb]

That looks like a pretty reasonable list. The only omission I can think of that merits at least passing consideration is Gamer, pending what the hazard toggle does to its randomized layout.

It pains me to exclude Magicant from these lists but that platform underneath everything kills it. The likes of Jigglypuff would have a field day pitching a tent and setting up camp.

Yeah, Gamer I think would be OK, but I think it's randomized layouts have issues of their own. So like Mario Maker, I feel like making sure it lands on one that doesn't have issues that usually keeps stages from being legal would hurt it too much. I feel people would just avoid it to try and keep from landing on a layout that might be awkward for them, since you can't control that.

I have a personal thing against magicant as well honestly. If it wasn't for the bottom platform it'd be fine, since hazards off would obviously get rid of the landing craft and flying man.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have my own list of what I'm thinking about the stages. I just list all 103:

Spoiler: Personal Stage Thoughts

Stages I think will obviously be legal worthy:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Dream Land 64
Brinstar
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Pokemon Stadium 1
Delfino Plaza
WarioWare Inc.
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island Brawl
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege
Smashville
Unova Pokemon League
Prism Tower
Arena Ferox
Tortimer Island
PictoChat 2
Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Circuit 8 *assumes removing hazards 100% guarantees it never hits you
Skyloft *also assumes removing hazards 100% guarantees it never hits you
Kalos Pokemon League
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Wily Castle
Midgar
Umbra Clock Tower
New Donk City Hall

Stages I think have a fair chance of playing out okay and why I have concerns:

Peach's Castle 64 (just general meta stuff about how the shape plays)
Kongo Jungle (size ratios and how capable the top is)
Yoshi 64 (how the clouds are handled)
Rainbow Cruise (is it just the boat?)
Jungle Japes (how the water plays out in this engine)
Green Greens (how the hazards off plays out)
Corneria (is the gun still a platform with hazards off?)
Big Blue (What does hazards off even do?)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (are wind and electric form still present, and if so, do they still do the dumb things?)
Port Town Aero Dive (will it have ledges added/play out okay if not?)
Pirate Ship (how does the water play out with hazards off?)
Spirit Train (gotta really experiment with the gameplay of the hazards off form)
Mute City 3DS (what does this do with hazards off?)
Reset Bomb Forest (does it still turn into that horrible second form?)
Find Mii (are the sizes of the two main platforms big enough to avoid rock style camp-offs?)
Gamer (does hazards off prevent the loop lay-outs?)
Garden of Hope (how is the little "fort" handled with hazards off?)
Windy Hill Zone (is hazards off best case scenario?)
Mario Maker (how does hazards off work here?)
Great Plateau Tower (needs experimenting how practical the "cave of life" is to exploit)
Dracula's Castle (really unsure about the size, optimistic!)


Stages for which I have no real hope (why when specifically relevant):

Big Battlefield
Hyrule Castle
Saffron City (the layout I'm pretty sure won't play well despite not seeming bad at first glance)
Mushroom Kingdom 64
Peach's Castle Melee
Kongo Falls (the rock)
Great Bay
Temple
Yoshi's Island Melee
Venom
Onett
Mushroom Kingdom II
Brinstar Depths
Fourside
Mushroomy Kingdom
Mario Circuit Brawl
Bridge of Eldin
Distant Planet
New Pork City
Summit
Skyworld
Shadow Moses Island
Luigi's Mansion
Spear Pillar
75m
Mario Bros.
Hanenbow
Green Hill Zone
Super Mario 3d World
Golden Plains
Paper Mario
Gerudo Valley
Dream Land 3DS
Magicant (I just don't see the bottommost platform not being present and thus an eternal camp)
Balloon Fight
Living Room
Tomodachi Life
Mario Galaxy
Great Cave Offensive
Coliseum
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Wii Fit Studio
Boxing Ring
Gaur Plain
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Pac-Land
Suzaku Castle
Moray Towers

So personally, I have real interest in 53/103 of the stages. I'm pretty sure not all 53 will work out, but that's what I want to start with day one and work down from there. Even for the 50 stages I don't really have hope for, I'm still just going to see what's up with hazards off like check the mechanics just in case a surprise comes along. Some of my names are not fully current for stages; the official site doesn't work well for me and I can't easily check the correct new names of stages.

I do also agree that Magicant is likely to be a huge waste, especially since it's the only EarthBound themed stage that has any kind of a chance at all. We're already likely to lose a lot of series' music completely that will be missed (like Xenoblade), but EarthBound seems like it should be so close to being okay and then it's just... not.

 

[MercuryPenny]

I think that subjectively Smash 4 Battlefield is probably the "most neutral" stage in any smash game ever, but it still has plenty of biases, almost as many as Smashville.

just because i'm interested - what biases does battlefield have? the only real bias i can think of is little mac getting platform camped to death, but that's true on every non-fd stage. rosalina exploits the platform layout pretty hard, but then again rosalina exploits all platform layouts. characters with vertical combos like the platform heights, but a bias towards vertical combos is built into the game (vectoring and worse vertical di), and the higher ceiling somewhat compensates for it.

not disagreeing, just interested to hear what you think they are

 

[Untouch]

Even if the platform under magicant is removed, the platforms are just not suitable for characters like little mac.

 

[infomon]

IMO we shouldn't talk about a stage being "neutral" or "biased" or whatever. All that does is push someone's subjective opinion on top of the game. We'll end up crafting the game around a specific idea of the meta, instead of letting the meta evolve around what the game actually is.

This is a game that has a bunch of stages. We ban the ones we must. What's left are a bunch of environments. People will have preferences for different ones. They might like how their characters work on different stages, or maybe just like the aesthetic of some stages, or whatever reason. These stages are equal on the stage-select screen, they're equal parts of the game, and they're equally valid places to compete.

In any case it's maybe better to talk about how a stage affects a given matchup rather than just a character in a vacuum. But that's still just theorycrafting a meta.

Example: If the game had just two legal stages, Battlefield and Delfino Plaza, and we go 60-40 on one and 40-60 on the other, then I say we have equal skill at the game. It doesn't matter about characters, we both had equal opportunity to pick whatever characters we want. So starting game 1 on Battlefield because you theorize that it's somehow more balanced across matchups, isn't fair to the game or the players.