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Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimate

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Untouch

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On another unrelated note:
https://youtu.be/1FPJs_c3qY4
Looks as if green greens does not have blocks with hazards off. At the start of the level when kirby spawns in there are no blocks, yet in the invitational there were blocks spawned already.

Don't want to 100% say that is the case yet as I don't have 100% confirmation, this could be just a debug thing though.
This makes me wonder if any other stages in the trailers are hazards off.
 
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PoptartLord

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Since this has been brought up a couple of times recently I'll weigh in on this:
Couldn't it be argued that the potential poor memory of players is a bad reason to keep the stage list small?
It is indeed an incredibly bad reason. Who needs memory when we live in a world with this wondrous, high-tech thing exists called: a sheet of paper with the stage list printed out on it!! It can even keep track of hazards on/off for you! Place one at every setup and you're good to go!

Seriously, all "it's too much to remember!" stage list arguments lose to a sheet of paper. How is this even an argument for a game where players memorize true combo kill percents for a 60+ roster?
 

Fell God

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Since this has been brought up a couple of times recently I'll weigh in on this:

It is indeed an incredibly bad reason. Who needs memory when we live in a world with this wondrous, high-tech thing exists called: a sheet of paper with the stage list printed out on it!! It can even keep track of hazards on/off for you! Place one at every setup and you're good to go!

Seriously, all "it's too much to remember!" stage list arguments lose to a sheet of paper. How is this even an argument for a game where players memorize true combo kill percents for a 60+ roster?

Looking to be 70+ at this point! But, yeah, I don't see a problem with remembering the legal stages. As long as a solid list of legal stages exists and is easy to find, I'm hopeful that we can have a more diverse competitive scene. Besides, who wouldn't want to see Randall shenanigans in HD?
 

aarchak

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Besides, who wouldn't want to see Randall shenanigans in HD?
I, for one, would love to see Randall shenanigans in Ultimate. It's one of the reasons I hope some stages with hazards on won't just go illegal or stay as counterpicks only. It's one of my biggest worries with competitive Ultimate, that the stage list will get so conservative that we no longer have hazards.
 

WritersBlah

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I'm just going to point out that it's typically the oldest competitive vets who want more stages.

We're the ones who played Melee tourneys for years on Green Greens and Mute City, and had lots of great matches there.

It was always the youngest players who johned and complained about stages, with the most "faux-competitive" players being the "only FD" crowd.
I have noticed that to some extent, and I'm curious as to why it's true. I personally didn't start playing in tournaments regularly until Smash 4's release, but I had gotten my feet wet in competitive Smash with a Brawl tournament back in 2010 and playing on All is Brawl for a very long time after that. I wonder if that solidified anything in my head about the way stagelists were supposed to be constructed that brand new players never had exposure to. Watching old Melee matches on Rainbow Ride and Mute City have never seemed "jank" to me either. It makes me wonder why new players are so quick to want to ban stages or mechanics they don't feel familiar with.
 

Jamison

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I'm just gonna say it. I think from what we've seen thus far the development team has a poor understanding of what the community feels is a "hazard." Lylat tilting gone, okay we want that. Great Plateau Tower have an unpassable platform instead of a breakable one, not ideal. Yoshi's Story (Melee) no shy guys, alright, no Randall, we want Randall! Randall runs on a cyclical route that's easy to time. Town & City platforms don't move slightly, IDK how everyone feels about that. I don't think anyone cared that much TBH. I guess them not shifting around makes the stage have less "unpredictability" but if that's the case what happens if we get Fountain of Dreams back? Is hazard toggle going to freeze the platforms? Remove the side platforms? It would completely change the identity of the stage. I'm 100% on board with getting rid of some random shenanigans that we know affects gameplay negatively. But it feels like there's this notion now that if a platform moves vertically it's a hazard. While it will make stages competitive it could be going overboard and we could end up scrapping stages like Yoshi's Story (Melee) that a lot of people love BC they are just going to end up like a slight variant of FD, SV or BF. In Melee BF and DL are two very different stages. In sm4sh the differences are far less significant.

I personally think hazards should be viewed as things that primarily have a strong negative impact in competitive play. But they should also take into account how it affects a semi-casual and casual level of play. Frigate Orpheon is a good example. The plats moving around still but the Parasite Queen no longer flipping the stage upside down is perfect for a hazard toggle. That's what we want. The stage could be "more competitive" if they just froze it completely but not every moving part needs to be removed from a stage. We never got a chance to see what Wily's Castle with the platforms but w/o yellow devil would play like. I don't like this freeze/remove anything that moves mentality that is showing with hazard toggle. I think it's still overall a good thing but I do have genuine concerns we are going to lose potential stages. Even outside of competitive play if me and my friends want to play casually we won't touch Wily Castle bc of yellow devil but we still want the platforms. I'd love to play Melee's Mute City casually w/o the cars when my buddy and I falcon ditto. But IDK if we are going to get things like that. Maybe it's just me but I was looking forward to hazard toggle giving me more stages to play casually. No matter what I'm still going to play the most competitive stages the most but sometimes I like to mix in other stages for fun.
 

Untouch

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What's considered a hazards seems totally random.
Some stages have platforms that move. (Frigate Orpheon)
Some stages have platforms but they're static. (Saffron City)
Some stages have their platforms removed altogether. (Dr. Wily's Castle)
 

ParanoidDrone

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It seems pretty clear to me that what constitutes a "stage hazard" for the purposes of the toggle is decided on a stage-by-stage basis. Broadly speaking, anything that can deal or receive damage seems to be a safe bet for removal, Saffron City's Pokemon and Great Plateau Tower's ceiling being two obvious examples. Other than that, the only thing approximating a pattern that I can suss out is "what dynamic elements does this stage have?" But even that is imperfect since AFAIK T&C still transitions between its two forms, it's just that the platforms in each form don't move.

Obviously we'll need to document exactly what the toggle does for each stage once the game is released. Speculation is all well and good but there are simply too many unknowns to make any definitive statements right now.
 

Vulgun

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I don't believe the top of the tower breaking very easily in sudden death is irrelevant to competitive play. Nobody should be getting to 200% on a stage that small (stage and blast zones are both small) let alone 300%. If they do then it's likely going to be BC of the cave of life which would be a major issue. I do wanna know how the damage to the tower scales. Like if say the tower breaks in 1 hit with someone at 300% does it break in 3 hits with someone at 100%? If that was the case I could see it being less of an issue but someone could still eat a smash attack that would KO, eat an aerial/tilt and then eat a 2nd smash attack that would KO and survive. So a lighter character could go from 100% to 140% solely BC of a stage hazard which I feel is an issue. If the tower damage scales exponentially instead of multiplicatively then someone could eat a lot of hits with the hazard.

But characters, play styles etc. will all affect how "broken" the hazard/ceiling plat is. The community could feel it's not a major issue. Testing it out with hazard toggle on could show that most of the cast can punish the tech with a jab or tilt or something of that nature. Maybe since it is a relatively small cave of life it won't be as big of an issue as some of us think. But it still could be and would need some testing.
I think that the tower's damage only scales with the speed of the knockback, nothing more, and is absolutely dependent upon how much weight a character has and which attack actually hits the character. For example, if Falco is sent at the tower at 140% by Ganondorf's Forward Smash, it is completely possible for Falco to be sent flying fast enough to break the tower in one single hit. Conversely, if a character like King Dedede was hit towards the stage with Little Mac's Up Aerial at 300% damage, it's possible that the tower won't break due to Dedede's values and Little Mac's up aerial being too weak to send him launching.

I also do believe that the damage the knockback provides is based on a multiplicative manner rather than an exponential manner. For instance, and not to give any concrete statement, the velocity of the character relative to the tower would cause it to multiply in damage the faster they go. You could have two characters sent at the same time with the same knockback value to do the same damage, but it will start multiplying if one hits the tower at a higher value than the other.

I could be completely wrong in this regard, but it is some food for thought when talking about the fragility of the tower.
 

Dario64

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I made a Video exactly with the same Topic!
Although I do believe there could be more Legal Stages.
 

Thinkaman

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I'm just gonna say it. I think from what we've seen thus far the development team has a poor understanding of what the community feels is a "hazard."
That's fitting, since I think the community has a poor understanding of what the community feels is a "hazard."
 

ParanoidDrone

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There are a few points from the direct I'd like to bring up since I think they're relevant to the thread subject.

(Please note that I will not be attempting to hide spoilers. If you're planning to watch a recording of the direct later and want to be surprised by everything, don't read this.)

1. New Donk City Hall is a transforming stage most similar to Prism Tower. I could see no obvious hazards, so it looks like it would actually be a solid legal candidate against everyone's initial assumptions.
2. Brinstar Depths has grabbable ledges now.
3. There's a new "Stage Morph" feature where you can select two stages on the stage select screen and the two will switch between each other mid-match, which can be set to occur either randomly or on a set timer.
4. All stages will be available from the start, no unlocks. A full shot of the stage select screen was shown, so if someone pulls a still image from the VOD or whatever we would have a solid reference point. (EDIT: Image here. List below.)
5. Dracula's Castle features a bunch of Castlevania bosses, but those will undoubtedly be gone with hazards off. The basic layout looks...not awful? They never showed a fullscreen angle of the whole stage so it's hard to say for sure but I think this one is worth looking at.
6. A...Monster Hunter stage of some sort? There was a stage boss (and also an assist trophy) stated to be from that series on a stage I didn't recognize at all. Looked like a walkoff so possibly a moot point anyway. (EDIT: Since the stage select shown was stated to have every stage but the MH stage wasn't explicitly introduced, it's likely tied to that mystery mode Sakurai was being coy about.)
7. There's also a dedicated training mode stage of all things, with a grid and projected trajectory lines on hit and everything. Not something that would concern actual gameplay but still a very nice touch.

The official site also has the stages listed.

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Peach's Castle 64
Kongo Jungle 64
Hyrule Castle 64
Super Happy Tree (aka Yoshi's Story 64)
Dream Land 64
Saffron City 64
Mushroom Kingdom 64
Princess Peach's Castle (Melee)
Rainbow Cruise
Rumble Falls
Jungle Japes
Great Bay
Temple
Brinstar
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
Yoshi's Story (Melee)
Fountain of Dreams
Green Greens
Corneria
Venom
Pokemon Stadium 1
Onett
Mushroom Kingdom 1 (Melee)
Brinstar Depths
Big Blue
Fourside
Delfino Plaza
Mushroomy Kingdom
Figure 8 Circuit (aka Mario Circuit Brawl)
Warioware
Bridge of Eldin
Norfair
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Castle Siege
Distanct Planet
Smashville
New Pork City
Summit
Skyworld
Shadow Moses Island
Luigi's Mansion
Pirate Ship
Spear Pillar
75M
Mario Bros.
Hanenbow
Green Hill Zone
3D Land
Golden Plains
Paper Mario
Gerudo Valley
Spirit Train
Dream Land GB
Unova Pokemon League
Prism Tower
Mute City SNES
Magicant
Arena Ferox
Reset Bomb Forest
Tortimer Island
Balloon Fight
Living Room
Find Mii
Tomodachi Life
Pictochat 2
Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Galaxy
Mario Circuit (Wii U)
Skyloft
Great Cave Offensive
Kalos Pokemon League
Coliseum
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Gamer
Garden of Hope
Town & City
Wii Fit Studio
Boxing Ring
Gaur Plain
Duck Hunt
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone
Wily Castle
PAC-LAND
Mario Maker
Suzaku Castle
Midgar
Umbra Clock Tower
New Donk City Hall
Great Plateau Tower
Moray Towers
Dracula's Castle
 
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Untouch

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It looks like the breakable parts of brinstar aren't breakable in hazard toggle. Legal please, it has a good layout assuming that the lava doesn't spawn too.
 

blackghost

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that direct had minimum 3 and likely a fourth legal stage. any stagelist that is under like 10-12 is just cutting stagelist to be extra conservative. i know thereis no point pushing for stage morphing or the new final smash integration. not gojng to even bother.
 

Untouch

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Final smash thing I can see being used at side tourneys.
Stage morph I can't see being used, too complicated.
 

ParanoidDrone

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My standard view on any new features like stage morphing is that, unless it's obviously and blatantly broken, it deserves at least thoughtful consideration and, ideally, actual playtime to see how it works. I'm unwilling to dismiss it out of hand, although I do concede that it's unlikely to ever become standard. But the idea is intriguing at the very least and I'd like to see how it plays out in practice.

Also, I missed this watching the direct, but the stage hazard toggle is part of the rules menu, which suggests to me that you can't toggle it on/off on the stage select screen and would make it awkward at best to switch between the two modes depending on the stage.
 
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Jamison

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Thoughts: New Donk City seems like it could be comparable in overall play style to Prism Tower, so being that it's a new stage I think gives it a strong merit for competitive consideration. Likely as a counter-pick though, I don't think it's starter level.
My guess with Fountain of Dreams is that the side platforms won't move at all with hazards toggled off. As much as I love FoD in Melee I'd be surprised if it doesn't fall into that category of Dreamland in sm4sh that it plays too similarly to BF. Based off of how sm4sh plays compared to melee I personally feel platform layout is more crucial for sm4sh and by extension ultimate. than compared to Melee where blast zones seem to play a more significant role than they do in sm4sh. I think Melee having 3 triplat stages not even including FoD and how different those stages are in a lot of MU's also backs this up. So using a conservatively sized stage list I don't see FoD making the cut but I think that's only because of BF. Even with randomly moving platforms (and a relatively small size for doubles) I think the stage is perfectly fine for competitive play
I'm sure there will be some discussion of the potential of stage morphing in competitive. Ideas like an opponent can pick two stages or they pick 3 you eliminate one and play on both of the other two, or they pick a stage and you pick a different stage and you play on the two of them etc. I personally don't think any of these ideas work. You will know the two stages selected and one of the two is almost certain to be more favorable. This means that campy play would be promoted to wait out the one stage for a more advantageous one. I could see there being potential to double up on FD's or BF's for music changes but I think the transformation itself could be distracting for some. So I don't believe there's any competitive potential for stage morphing.
 

Thinkaman

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Final Smash meter is as irrelevant as Stamina mode: a tertiary throwback to traditional fighters. "What if everyone had KO Punch?!?" Cute, but less competitively significant than Coin mode.

Stage Morph (timed) will be considered as a game 1 option but rejected for reasons that will never be adequately explained. It has weird implications for stalling. On one hand, stalling on that tree or rock has less incentive when the stage is going to turn back to FD in 60 seconds. On the other, stalling has more incentive when the stage is going to turn back to a more favorable layout in the future, such as better blast zones.

The net effect is probably anti-stall, since it is so much more relevant in the most egregious cases. (That it helps)
 

Untouch

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New Donk seems like it fixes some of the potential sharking problems with Prism. If one of the two are going to be legal I'd call for that one.
I think morphing, if people want to go along with it, could fix a lot of problems people have with stages.
 

blackghost

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Final Smash meter is as irrelevant as Stamina mode: a tertiary throwback to traditional fighters. "What if everyone had KO Punch?!?" Cute, but less competitively significant than Coin mode.

Stage Morph (timed) will be considered as a game 1 option but rejected for reasons that will never be adequately explained. It has weird implications for stalling. On one hand, stalling on that tree or rock has less incentive when the stage is going to turn back to FD in 60 seconds. On the other, stalling has more incentive when the stage is going to turn back to a more favorable layout in the future, such as better blast zones.

The net effect is probably anti-stall, since it is so much more relevant in the most egregious cases. (That it helps)

i like the idea that match one of a set is played on stage morph of a list of all the "neutrals" a strong argument can be made its the most fair way to start a set as no stage is an absolute neutral. there no counterargument to it being random as we can order the order of the list and set the timer on the switch. like other competitive games, this adds layers for skilled players to take advantage off. your opponent camping you out on smashville? well when that timer gets to 5:00 minute that platform will vanish and you get the advantage.

idont think the smash meter mode will ever have a chance. characters like Bayonetta, samus, bowser, and inkling have final smashes that are truly ridiculously strong. ESPECIALLY bayo not going to even justify that being considered.
 

Thinkaman

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Stage Morph is specifically between 2 stages, not a bigger list.
 

Lhautlow

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Hey everybody, I just repertoried every Stage of the game that we saw on the direct. I did not compt how many there was, not sure the whole 103 are here.
I was thinking really hard to what we're gonna do with all this content. I mean we never had to deal with more then 6 or 7 legal stages. But right here we could have around 20 to 30 playable stages. Strikes and bans won't ever be the same, so we have to think what the next format will be.
Here's my Google Doc, with some of my opinions on it on which stage could be or will be legal :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lhREip_SD2TGgJej61GQZxy3dj0gcdyKM4RZ-ckCBcU/edit?usp=sharing

Hope you'll like it, it took me more then 1h to do it. Feel free to say my opinion is bad, anyway I am not a TO right now, am more like a guy that tries to gather a community lol
 

ぱみゅ

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I really, REALLY like the concept of Game 1 morphing stages.

There is much potential for a new creative ruleset that leaves everyone satisfied enough... But this community has a past of being lazy and I bet by march we'll have that laziness reflected in the ruleset used by most large events.
:196:
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Stage morph could be totally embraced if it works generally well and people want it. Consider this model, assuming a very large stage list:

First a random set of 9 legal stages is picked from all legal stages by the TO. For round robin pools one random list would just be given out and used throughout. For bracket it would be associated with bracket stage (so winner's 1 might use FD/BF/SV/Prism Tower/Yoshi's Brawl/Delfino/Wuhu/New Donk/Unova). For larger tournaments this would be done well in advance and included on per station printouts along with the total counterpick legal stage list.

Each player may ban two stages from the 9 from game 1. This will be done in a 1-2-1 order.

Next from the remaining stages each player selects a stage. Game one will be on a stage morph between both stages.

Characters are double blind for game one.

For game two (and all further counterpick games), the loser of the previous game picks three stages that are not blocked by DSR from the entire legal stage list (for DSR purposes, a stage morph disqualifies BOTH stages it included). The winner of the previous game can choose to play on any one of those three stages or a stage morph of any two. Character selection then follows.

Fast, fair procedure that accommodates a huge number of stages. Little tweaks can be made to ensure various things (like for the random 9, you could have a cap on the number of same platform structure or number of moving stages permissible before it's a reroll), but the general idea would work pretty well... if people were willing to go for it. This isn't really even a formal proposal, just me spitballing something that would work pretty well utilizing the new feature.
 

Untouch

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Loser picks the first and starting stage.
Winner picks the second stage.
Set the morph time to 1 minute.
 

TimonBoyd

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This is a thread about tournament stage policy.
Character Predictions
-Geno
-Banjo & Kazooie
-Paper Mario
-Rex & Pyra
-Incenaroar
-Waluigi

DlC
-Octolings
-Crash Bandicoot

ECHO
-Funky Kong
-Shadow The Hedgehog
 
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infomon

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At the top of the stage selection screen it shows that all the stages are in a tab that says "Normal". There are no other tabs. So what do you think they will be? "Custom" is probably one. But imagine we'll be able to make our own custom stage-list and have those stages in their own tab. So we could single out the legal stages, ideally some with hazards and some without. Doubt it though but it would solve a lot of our problems....
 

Thinkaman

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Assuming stage builder returns, that has historically been the other "category" of stages.
 

Munomario777

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the main issue with a large stage list has always been that for game one, it's hard to whittle them all down to one stage that both players agree on

for CP it's easier since the idea is to give one player an advantage, and there are systems that work a lot better with that

with stage morphing, now both players can essentially CP at the same time, which is potentially HUGE for large stage lists



the tabs are probably custom stages and DLC stages, like in smash wii u
 

DtJ Glyphmoney

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Holy ****.

Game 1 is ****ing solved, stage morph between both players pick is too beautiful (assuming it you know, works)

Still the question of what 9 stages to use as the neutral roster, but this is a massively powerful tool for us to play with. Good god Sakurai you actually care. We don't deserve you.
 

Untouch

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My only concern (outside of some stuttering issues I assume will be fixed by launch) is that turning it off and on again may be a lengthy progress.
If it's only being used for neutral, turning it on and then off again when the match is over may get a bit annoying. That is if you can't just select the same stage twitch for the morph, then it just doesnt do anything.
 

**Gilgamesh**

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the main issue with a large stage list has always been that for game one, it's hard to whittle them all down to one stage that both players agree on

for CP it's easier since the idea is to give one player an advantage, and there are systems that work a lot better with that

with stage morphing, now both players can essentially CP at the same time, which is potentially HUGE for large stage lists



the tabs are probably custom stages and DLC stages, like in smash wii u
Incorrect; one player will still have the advantage of starting on the stage of their choice first. Matches also doesn't last That long either. The other player might not even get their stage time equally AND might not even get the stage to pop up.
 
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infomon

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Holy ****.

Game 1 is ****ing solved, stage morph between both players pick is too beautiful (assuming it you know, works)

Still the question of what 9 stages to use as the neutral roster, but this is a massively powerful tool for us to play with. Good god Sakurai you actually care. We don't deserve you.
LOL if we let each player pick a starter stage to morph for game 1, then there's no reason to limit it to 9 starters. You could have the full list of legal stages. Or any number of starters, whatever makes sense that doesn't counterpick the already-chosen characters too hard or something.
 

MaestroDavros

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I don't see stage morphing working in the long run. We've already seen that players want the same stage layout throughout a match, and transformation stages have already been frowned upon.

Plus, even with using an agreed upon list of legal stages, morphing mid match could result in the next layout completely changing the favor from one fighter to another, which would make such a match unfair.
 

DtJ Glyphmoney

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9 is an arbitrary, but ultimately prob pretty solid, number. Game 1 has to meet community standards of 'fairness', and that pretty much means 'stages we've already seen be neutrals in the past'. Keep in mind too, stage is picked before character now.

So, and I fully acknowledge that I'm getting ahead of myself since we don't know exactly how stages are going to operate with hazards off (though we got a hellva clue in the direct today), I anticipate we start with something like:

-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Yoshi’s Island
-Lylat Cruise
-Smashville
-Town and City
-Pokemon Stadium 1/2

There's 8 that are pretty much locks as is. This does assume a completely frozen Pokemon Stadium though. Could argue for several others, such as Dream Land or even Frigate but those run the issue of redundant stages and being perceived as 'less neutral' respectively.

Interestingly enough, we're also now free from another old restriction; neutral lists must be an odd number. Since we don't need to strike down to a single stage, we could easily do even numbers as well.

I don't see stage morphing working in the long run. We've already seen that players want the same stage layout throughout a match, and transformation stages have already been frowned upon.

Plus, even with using an agreed upon list of legal stages, morphing mid match could result in the next layout completely changing the favor from one fighter to another, which would make such a match unfair.
There has never been something like this before, we can't compare it to something like a transforming stage. Beyond that, the ones that have transformed have often times been legal and only cut because of a few problematic moments, such as a low blast zone during a transition or a temporary walkoff that got abused. Here, we solve both of those issues and are switching between two very fair stages on a predictable time table. It's about as sweet of a deal as we could hope for!


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Second point that I've wanted to get out there, and just kinda touched on here some, is that we're going to have to keep with the previous neutral mentality. I'm also in full support of as large of a stage list as humanly possible, but let me outline why I maintain the former of these points a little more here.

Assume we do go ahead and make every single stage possible for game 1. There's one very, very key component to game 1 in particular that cannot be ignored, it has to feel 'fair'. Pulling a random sample from a stage roster as bonkers large as we're likely to actually see be feasible here is going to lead to deviation from set to set, and that's going to lead to one player being more favored by the stages offered.

But, of course, you'll be quick to point out (and correct to do so), the current Neutral list does that already. But here's the key difference, people feel that it's fair. You can make arguments as compelling as you'd like, with statistics and examples and damning evidence in your favor, but at the end of the day most players are going to want the 8 or so I've laid out above. Giving them something else might be better for them, sure, but forcing it upon them is not the way to get those horizons to broaden.

In particular here, Game 1 carries a ludicrous amount of weight. If two players of equal skill are in opposition, the deciding factor should boil down to the terrain. Game 2 is won by whoever counterpicked there, and Game 3 is won by the loser of Game 2. I won't act like that's how EVERY set goes, but I hope you can see how important making Game 1 as balanced as possible becomes when there are many sets that DO boil down to that exact exchange.

It is far from perfect, but it's what's going to make people excited to play this game.
 
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Nakamura

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if Battlefield and FD are chosen, you could be able to select the BF or Omega form of any stage to sub it out.
 

Munomario777

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Incorrect; one player will still have the advantage of starting on the stage of their choice first. Matches also doesn't last That long either. The other player might not even get their stage time equally AND might not even get the stage to pop up.
use RPS to determine which stage goes first, just like determining who bans first
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Starters and counterpicks is a broken model. It literally does not work, and this has been proven in every smash game. What happens when you try to make it work is that the community bans every counterpick stage regardless of merit. You need a procedure that can deal with having 20+ legal stages and game one not always being restricted to a subset. This need is the starting point.

Transforming stages being "frowned upon" is honestly silly. What's the objective problem? Yes, advantage changes with time. Isn't that 100% strictly superior to one player being at a constant unchanging advantage? It's not even like we pick "neutral" stages; we always have Final Destination as a starter and it's very consistently one of the most skewed legal stages in terms of character advantage in every smash game even in regions with liberal stage lists. Like think about it. What's the effect of Delfino's temporary walk-offs? Well, characters with bad recoveries have a better shot because sometimes the stage isn't as dangerous for them, and if you know your opponent is on the lower end of the IQ spectrum, you can bait them into doing stupid stuff near the walk-off and maybe get a cheeky kill but if your opponent is even merely just slightly below average in terms of intelligence they'll control space, pin you to the walk-off, and then you're in big trouble when the stage starts transforming. What's the effect of not having platforms? Well, any character with a poor air game gets massively magnified since the opponent totally loses the ability to put vertical space between them. Which is a bigger impact on a match-up really?

Players don't want stages that are generally disruptive, and most players aren't comfortable with rocking the boat and complaining if too much is banned. However, there's a huge fatigue across the entire community with Animal Crossing stages and the general idea of just always playing on the same couple of stages. The community as a whole is sympathetic to the "ban stages, ban them all!!!" side's arguments about specific stages but totally unsympathetic to the position of just having fewer stages for the sake of it. Smash Ultimate is giving us the tools to change it, and whether we use stage morph or not (it's not really clear how well it will work out; we'll have to see the fine details of the mechanics), there's going to be a lot of very unhappy people if we don't change our basic model to just plain have more diversity. The idea of playing on 9 or fewer stages in a game with 103 (!) stages is the sort of thing that if you just spell it out that way should sound like an absolutely crazy idea to you, and if we try to really make that happen, it's going to hobble this game throughout its competitive lifespan.
 
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