Disappointed with Link

[BrazenBunnies]

Am I the only one underwhelmed with what they decided to do with link? They could've made him a whole new awesome character but they decided to make small changes that basically end up nerfing him. I like how you get blade beams from his sword at 0%, but in reality how long does anyone stay at 0? Also, his tether grab is gone so he loses some of his range, along with his zair. His bombs now have to be detonated manually and that might be a buff or a nerf but it seems like there's a lot of lag on the trigger. They could've easily done the same thing they did to the inklings where his different smash attacks use different weapons or such. He could've had the champions abilities. Even his intro animation should've been the sheikah slate warp animation from BOTW. All of these changes probably would've been cooler to see. Hopefully the fact that none of the champions are present in the slightest means that they'll be DLC? What do you guys think?

 

[emefcue]

I will miss his z-air. I agree with the blade beams being a very limited perk. I feel like they made subtle yet appropriate changes to him to coincide with Breath of the Wild Link (2 arrows shot, bombs that manually detonate, no hook shot) while still staying true to who Link is.

Personally I think adding champion abilities would be too much and not fit in with the style of Smash. Link is a sword fighter at heart and his smash attacks being anything but sword attacks would take away from this identity.

That being said, he appears faster with his aerials (as do all characters in Smash Ultimate) and I can't wait until I can personally test him out. Until then I don't want to decide if he feels right or not, especially since this game will have multiple versions just as the Wii U did. One thing for certain, is that this will be a wild ride for us Link mains.
- Missing

 

[Reila]

"They could've made him a whole new awesome character "

They could if they decided to launch the game in 2020 or something like that. With the extremely short development time, they couldn't possibly have time to completely redo old characters.

"Hopefully the fact that none of the champions are present in the slightest means that they'll be DLC?"

They are no different than other one shot characters such as Midna, Ghirahim, Skull Kid with Majora's Mask. I wouldn't expect any of them. The main relevant Zelda characters already are in the game, anyways.

 

[Tri Knight]

His attacks seemed faster in the videos. I tried watching what he could do close up but it was tough with all the chaos... it kinda seemed like his attacks were faster. His bow will likely be stronger with the double arrows. I'll have to watch again to be sure about his faster attacks so don't quote me on that.

Might be an unpopular opinion but I'm glad he's still only using his Master Sword and I love the idea of remote bombs. I'm kind of hoping these changes means they're intending to push him into more of a melee focused style while using Young Link as the "Standard" zoner Link we're used to.

 

[MacDaddyNook]

I've been waiting for the 0% blade beam since the first game, I'm glad to see they finally added it.

Unfortunately, they changes to remote bombs completely ruins how I play Link, so I'm going to have to switch to one of his counterparts instead.

 

[Khao]

Honestly I would've hated it if they had completely reworked him. It makes zero sense to fundamentally change the way Link works just because of one single game in the series. He may have his BotW look, but he should absolutely still represent Link as he is throughout the Zelda series as a whole. Plus, he's been in Smash since day one and he already has a clearly defined playstyle. A playstyle that still fits his new incarnation at that.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

Honestly I would've hated it if they had completely reworked him. It makes zero sense to fundamentally change the way Link works just because of one single game in the series. He may have his BotW look, but he should absolutely still represent Link as he is throughout the Zelda series as a whole. Plus, he's been in Smash since day one and he already has a clearly defined playstyle. A playstyle that still fits his new incarnation at that.

I get that, but the old moveset has young link now...

 

[Gallerian]

I get that, but the old moveset has young link now...

To be frank, (and I feel bad in saying this, but) this is a bad argument.

Young Link (and Toon Link by extension) still has differences to him that separates him from OG Link. Fundamentals that OG Link mains would have to scrap to accommodate the changes in Young Link. Also, another thing you need to take into account is the players who are Character Loyalists. The ones who play a certain character because they are that character. To completely revamp them would kind of alienate that crowd. And to do something like that to a character who so iconic at this point would cause more trouble than it would ever be worth.

Imagine playing Ryu in Street Fighter and suddenly he has Tae Kwon Do as his fighting style instead of his iconic Ansatsuken. You aren't playing Ryu, you're playing as someone who looks like Ryu, but it is certainly NOT Ryu. That's what it would feel like to the Link players. There are already people mad about his hookshot being gone. Now imagine if that extended to his literal EVERYTHING.

They kind of got away with it with Pit when transitioning from Brawl to WiiU because Brawl Pit didn't have much to work with, and he wasn't reconsidered all that iconic. By the time Uprising came around, he was more associated with that game than ever before, and were able to change his specials. Link is not one of those characters. Link has a history spanning more than 20 years of constant games across multiple playforms.

Another thing to consider is the fact that Link still has access to a lot of the moves and items from his OG Smash self in BotW. Boomerangs? Check. Bombs? Check. Spin attack? Triple check. Bows and arrows? Quadruple check.

It's a way of keeping him fresh whilst not completely alienating the people who played him for well over a decade.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

To be frank, (and I feel bad in saying this, but) this is a bad argument.

Young Link (and Toon Link by extension) still has differences to him that separates him from OG Link. Fundamentals that OG Link mains would have to scrap to accommodate the changes in Young Link. Also, another thing you need to take into account is the players who are Character Loyalists. The ones who play a certain character because they are that character. To completely revamp them would kind of alienate that crowd. And to do something like that to a character who so iconic at this point would cause more trouble than it would ever be worth.

Imagine playing Ryu in Street Fighter and suddenly he has Tae Kwon Do as his fighting style instead of his iconic Ansatsuken. You aren't playing Ryu, you're playing as someone who looks like Ryu, but it is certainly NOT Ryu. That's what it would feel like to the Link players. There are already people mad about his hookshot being gone. Now imagine if that extended to his literal EVERYTHING.

They kind of got away with it with Pit when transitioning from Brawl to WiiU because Brawl Pit didn't have much to work with, and he wasn't reconsidered all that iconic. By the time Uprising came around, he was more associated with that game than ever before, and were able to change his specials. Link is not one of those characters. Link has a history spanning more than 20 years of constant games across multiple playforms.

Another thing to consider is the fact that Link still has access to a lot of the moves and items from his OG Smash self in BotW. Boomerangs? Check. Bombs? Check. Spin attack? Triple check. Bows and arrows? Quadruple check.

It's a way of keeping him fresh whilst not completely alienating the people who played him for well over a decade.

I'll answer all of your paragraphs with my own.

From what we've seen so far, Young Link is just about exactly what Link was in sm4sh and brawl. Your character loyalist point, though, is absolutely valid. I played Link just because he was Link. On the other hand, in the case of Link, we're getting a different Link altogether. From a different game, with a completely new look. They could've completely remade Link, which they didn't do, and kept Young Link, as they have, as a sort of "classic" Link. I don't think that too many people would worry in that case. Die hard Link fans, like me, will continue to use Link no matter what, and especially if they've played Breath of the Wild, would enjoy the new moveset. If people played Link in sm4sh because of his moves and such, they would easily switch over to Young Link.

Thing is, changes to Link in accordance to BOTW would be canon, because they're in accordance to BOTW. Right now we're playing a Link who looks like BOTW link, yet has an extremely similar moveset to the previous renditions of Link. It definitely would still be Link, just a different version.

Again, he is iconic, but so is his new version. So why not have both?

Yes he does use those, but how often are boomerangs really used in BotW? I thought they were cool for a while, but ended up using a bow and sword much more often. The bombs are definitely there, and they're extremely useful, and I like how Nintendo changed that part in his moveset to match the game more accurately. His bow is almost exactly the same except for the addition of the double arrows. But, his spin attack could easily be a new down smash, to be replaced by the actual mode of vertical transportation in BotW: Revali's Gale. Heck, he could even have his two handed weapon spin attack as a side B, similar to squirtle or Yoshi.

I don't think it would be alienating those people, just giving them even more options.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I honestly can’t be more happy with what they did with Link. And as far as the “nerfs” you listed, those aren’t nerfs at all, but massive improvements.

Link losing his hook shot is excellent. Due to that he had a regular grab. In competitive play, having a tether grab is a massive disadvantage because you have substantial cool down if you miss, enough to get you killed against a skilled player. Having a normal grab allows link to apply appropriate pressure. Tomohawk grabs are on option now. And even if you whiff a grab you won’t get punished as hard. Sure, you lose an off stage gimmick recovery, but that doesn’t stop it from being linear and predictable. There also the loss of tether mix ups, but there is no need for that if you have a stronger presence on stage.

Links bombs may not be able to be on the stage so much, but the ability to remote detonate gives him the ability to have stage control and some solid edge guard scenarios. And if you want to recover you just pull a bomb, z-drop, detonate. I’m sure players will adapt to the change.

I’m not sure if you are aware but Link can pick up his arrows out of the ground like in breath of the wild. These are a great substitute for having an extra bomb as they can be thrown and z-dropped, so you can have set ups at the edge where you throw an arrow up and have a bomb placed, covering a neutral ledge get up and a roll get up, for example. Also, if you pick an arrow up and shoot an arrow again, you will shoot 2 arrows. This is a seamless integration of breath of the wild play with traditional Link characteristics

Link also has a greater amount of range on his sword. His forward air looks excellent, and with the dash canceling mechanics he has the potential to quickly zone in on his opponent with strong tilts and jabs.

I think this is smash’s best iteration of Link thus far. He has too much going for him.

And also, I know where you’re coming from, but having spin attack as down smash would not be good, and would be very easy to punish.

I get that it’s cannon but Link is a sum of all his incarnations, and this iteration has done a great job. Revali’s Gale honestly doesn’t sound very useful on paper, especially if it does no damage a la Pit’s up B. Link’s spin attack is the most iconic move in the Legend of Zelda series, so replacing it with anything else just can’t do it justice.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I think people are passing too harsh of judgment against him before the game is even out. We have not even begun to explore the possibilities with his remote bombs. OK, so we can't play Link the way we have in past games; so don't. That doesn't automatically make him hopeless. We have a ton of research to do.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Gotta say I'm kinda let down too. I was seriously hoping for an UpB change to Revali's Gale + Paraglider, but whatever. Like the OP said, at least making his intro animation the Sheikah Slate warp would've been really neat.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I honestly can’t be more happy with what they did with Link. And as far as the “nerfs” you listed, those aren’t nerfs at all, but massive improvements.

Link losing his hook shot is excellent. Due to that he had a regular grab. In competitive play, having a tether grab is a massive disadvantage because you have substantial cool down if you miss, enough to get you killed against a skilled player. Having a normal grab allows link to apply appropriate pressure. Tomohawk grabs are on option now. And even if you whiff a grab you won’t get punished as hard. Sure, you lose an off stage gimmick recovery, but that doesn’t stop it from being linear and predictable. There also the loss of tether mix ups, but there is no need for that if you have a stronger presence on stage.

Links bombs may not be able to be on the stage so much, but the ability to remote detonate gives him the ability to have stage control and some solid edge guard scenarios. And if you want to recover you just pull a bomb, z-drop, detonate. I’m sure players will adapt to the change.

I’m not sure if you are aware but Link can pick up his arrows out of the ground like in breath of the wild. These are a great substitute for having an extra bomb as they can be thrown and z-dropped, so you can have set ups at the edge where you throw an arrow up and have a bomb placed, covering a neutral ledge get up and a roll get up, for example. Also, if you pick an arrow up and shoot an arrow again, you will shoot 2 arrows. This is a seamless integration of breath of the wild play with traditional Link characteristics

Link also has a greater amount of range on his sword. His forward air looks excellent, and with the dash canceling mechanics he has the potential to quickly zone in on his opponent with strong tilts and jabs.

I think this is smash’s best iteration of Link thus far. He has too much going for him.

And also, I know where you’re coming from, but having spin attack as down smash would not be good, and would be very easy to punish.

I get that it’s cannon but Link is a sum of all his incarnations, and this iteration has done a great job. Revali’s Gale honestly doesn’t sound very useful on paper, especially if it does no damage a la Pit’s up B. Link’s spin attack is the most iconic move in the Legend of Zelda series, so replacing it with anything else just can’t do it justice.

Well claw shot is really situational. There's no reason it is less viable in competitive play, and no reason you can't tomohawk grab with a tether. Not to mention, tether recoveries don't have to be linear. It's much faster than a regular recovery move, you can swing down and under an opponent trying to punish, and you can act out of it much faster, because tether recoveries have much less lag after grabbing the ledge.

I love the new bombs and arrow mechanic, although I wish link could have a bit more mobility while charging them, as he does in BotW. I also understand your side of the argument, but with all of the hype and speculation surrounding link in particular, I was just a bit underwhelmed.

Also, regarding his down smash, it's already extremely punishable, as is his spin attack in their sm4sh iteration.

I thought that revali's gale might be something more like peach's or g&w's up b, but I absolutely get where you're coming from with the iconicity of the spin attack.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I just think it's kinda funny that anyone puts forward the idea that they play Link because he's like super good... and not because they just like Link as a character.

I welcome the BOTW version. It's something different. We've had three or four games of largely the same kind of Link. It hasn't really panned out (competitively). Let's see what remote bombs do to the meta.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

I just think it's kinda funny that anyone puts forward the idea that they play Link because he's like super good... and not because they just like Link as a character.

I welcome the BOTW version. It's something different. We've had three or four games of largely the same kind of Link. It hasn't really panned out (competitively). Let's see what remote bombs do to the meta.

I don't think anyone does, to be honest, but they also play link because he's a sword character with some decent projectiles. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Link mains switch over to young link, as he is, from what we've seen, almost exactly the same as Link in previous games.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the BotW version too, but I wish it was just a bit more different.

 

[CostLow]

Wow. Are we really debating the usefulness of remote detonating bombs? Have you seen how big of an impact that has for Snake? They are stage control gold. The second arrow will be like one of PacMan's fruit. I can't wait.

 

[zeldasmash]

Wow. Are we really debating the usefulness of remote detonating bombs? Have you seen how big of an impact that has for Snake? They are stage control gold. The second arrow will be like one of PacMan's fruit. I can't wait.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Link in this game is basically Snake with a sword. Ancient Bomb Rune is automatically a great asset due to how similar it makes it to Snake's C4. It allows Link to consistently bomb recover, it has more range then the regular bombs and Link can set them of whenever he wants. I think it's a balancing thing that Link can only have 1 bomb at a time because if he had 2, Link would almost always have the neutral in his favor or have the entire stage to himself.

This is a different Link we're playing compared to the previous ones. A good character to practice with this iteration of Link is Snake due to how similar their playstyles are in this game.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

Wow. Are we really debating the usefulness of remote detonating bombs? Have you seen how big of an impact that has for Snake? They are stage control gold. The second arrow will be like one of PacMan's fruit. I can't wait.

I have no problem with the remote bombs, I think they fit Link's character and work well, it will just be another adjustment. I think that the second arrow will be a bit more situational since you have to shoot it first, which means you need to deal with the lag of the actual shot, then running over to pick it up.

Do we know if link is the only one who can pick his arrows up? If so, that would be awesome.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I don't think anyone does, to be honest, but they also play link because he's a sword character with some decent projectiles. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Link mains switch over to young link, as he is, from what we've seen, almost exactly the same as Link in previous games.

Don't get me wrong, I do like the BotW version too, but I wish it was just a bit more different.

This doesn't make much sense, though. The moment you drift away from "I like Link" and/or "I like Link's playstyle", you're effectively evaluating overall viability, no? Like, if your goal is only to win, Link just isn't the answer. He never really has been. Even at his very best, he's a blip on the competitive radar.

I don't say any of this with malice. I worked hard for years to prove that Link and Young Link had a place in tournaments. My problem was I largely lived in denial of his frame data. It's kind of depressing when you realize that Marth, Lucina, and Roy are more dangerous as characters because they can close the gap more quickly and more effectively than Link can pull out projectiles. (The warmup on boomerang is egregious.) That only bugs me because I want Link to be good.

I'm going to play SSBU much the same way (blind faith in Link and Young Link), but for once, I'm going to do it with both eyes open. I'm gonna be better about working around his weaknesses, but that's why I see this attitude of "oh now he's ruined" as missing the point. He's Link. Admit it. We're gonna play him and make him good. XD Suggesting anything along the lines of "he was good before but now he's not so I can't play him"... like what? Cloud is right there. Save yourself a lot of pain.

If you just genuinely don't like the idea of playing with his remote bombs... well, I can't help you.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

This doesn't make much sense, though. The moment you drift away from "I like Link" and/or "I like Link's playstyle", you're effectively evaluating overall viability, no? Like, if your goal is only to win, Link just isn't the answer. He never really has been. Even at his very best, he's a blip on the competitive radar.

I don't say any of this with malice. I worked hard for years to prove that Link and Young Link had a place in tournaments. My problem was I largely lived in denial of his frame data. It's kind of depressing when you realize that Marth, Lucina, and Roy are more dangerous as characters because they can close the gap more quickly and more effectively than Link can pull out projectiles. (The warmup on boomerang is egregious.) That only bugs me because I want Link to be good.

I'm going to play SSBU much the same way (blind faith in Link and Young Link), but for once, I'm going to do it with both eyes open. I'm gonna be better about working around his weaknesses, but that's why I see this attitude of "oh now he's ruined" as missing the point. He's Link. Admit it. We're gonna play him and make him good. XD Suggesting anything along the lines of "he was good before but now he's not so I can't play him"... like what? Cloud is right there. Save yourself a lot of pain.

If you just genuinely don't like the idea of playing with his remote bombs... well, I can't help you.

Whoa whoa whoa, I said I like the remote bombs. Also, Link did after all get 3rd place in civil war, which is a pretty big accomplishment. Yeah his frame data sucks in sm4sh. I don't think he's ruined at all, I only wanted a bit more of a deviation from his previous iteration, that's all. I love link as he his in sm4sh and I love this new link, but I wish they just changed him a bit more. He does, after all, have a dash attack in BotW, and I think that his moveset could be much more expanded upon, but that doesn't mean I don't like link and won't play him, I absolutely will!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Whoa whoa whoa, I said I like the remote bombs. Also, Link did after all get 3rd place in civil war, which is a pretty big accomplishment. Yeah his frame data sucks in sm4sh. I don't think he's ruined at all, I only wanted a bit more of a deviation from his previous iteration, that's all. I love link as he his in sm4sh and I love this new link, but I wish they just changed him a bit more. He does, after all, have a dash attack in BotW, and I think that his moveset could be much more expanded upon, but that doesn't mean I don't like link and won't play him, I absolutely will!

I probably started out addressing you and then quietly transitioned into addressing the world. Also, your purple text is inhumane.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I’ve personally always had loved Link. I love the Zelda series, so I just naturally gravitated towards him. Admittedly, the first character I ever played with in smash was Fox, because, well I love Star Fox as well. But the remainder of time I played majority Link.

There are characters I play for play style, and some that I play just because they’re fun. Link has always been a combination of both for me. I play aggressively, especially with sword characters, so a great portion of my playing with Link will revolve around spacing with aerials and following up with shield pressure, grab combos, tomahawks, a few bomb mix ups, first hit Bair to jab/grab/smash sets ups. This obviously isn’t optimal, but I’ve done my damage. Now that Link has a regular grab, and from what I can perceive, increased range on his sword, then this may be the best Link for me, personally.

It is important to stick with the characters you like the most because even if you have a pocket cloud, you’ll still retain what you learned from other characters. At the very least the amount of determination you need to put in to win with a character with worse frame data lol.

 

[Iridium]

I have no problem with the remote bombs, I think they fit Link's character and work well, it will just be another adjustment. I think that the second arrow will be a bit more situational since you have to shoot it first, which means you need to deal with the lag of the actual shot, then running over to pick it up.

Do we know if link is the only one who can pick his arrows up? If so, that would be awesome.

I think others can pick it up, and Kirby can also use double arrows in addition if he uses Inhale in Link. It should be useless for majority of characters, but who knows (oh, I hope!)?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I don't see bombs being picked up as an issue. Yes, hold my remote control bomb.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I don't see bombs being picked up as an issue. Yes, hold my remote control bomb.

That made me laugh more than it should have.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Bear in mind that the new bomb can be hit back towards us by just about any attack. Like the post above me said, that's not a huge issue since we now decide when it blows up, but it's something that I hadn't seen anybody talk about.

 

[Deleted member]

Looking forward to trying and figuring out Link a bit more. Can't wait to main him again.

 

[BigHairyFart]

I don't see bombs being picked up as an issue. Yes, hold my remote control bomb.

https://youtu.be/SmhjioVFmDo?t=4m23s

Turns out that you can't detonate your bomb if an enemy is holding it

 

[Iridium]

https://youtu.be/SmhjioVFmDo?t=4m23s

Turns out that you can't detonate your bomb if an enemy is holding it

Yep. However, I am amazed at the huge blast radius it has anyway!

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

https://youtu.be/SmhjioVFmDo?t=4m23s

Turns out that you can't detonate your bomb if an enemy is holding it

Whoa. That is incredibly disappointing.

 

[BigHairyFart]

Whoa. That is incredibly disappointing.

I agree. I was SO excited about this rework, but it looks like it causes more problems than it fixes imo. Not having a zair anymore really hurts me inside too.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

This match makes me more optimistic. I love that he throws the bomb straight up and then manually detonates it. Given its blast radius, this is probably better than having the bomb require impact.

Chill, folks. Link will have a new meta.

 

[Spatman]

TWith the extremely short development time

stop with this urban legend please: this game has the longest development time in Smash history

 

[Keeshu]

Personally I'm liking the new Link so far, even if he hasn't been massively changed. I like the remote bombs (but then again there's Snake for that too... but Link feels better than him usually). The main problem I have is that his Up B doesnt seem to go very far.
I'm curious about how powerful this sword beam is. Can it KO? because that would even stocks out quickly if so if link died first and was using invincibility frames. I just dont see Link players even try to do that, and they often get hit first.

I have a question. I saw Link do the grab animation while in the air. So instead of doing zair does he have an air grab now? Sadly I don't remember which video had a link do that. And no, it was not a boomerang throw. He grabbed someone, threw them, then jumped in the air and did the same animation for the grab. Perhaps a glitch?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I have a question. I saw Link do the grab animation while in the air. So instead of doing zair does he have an air grab now? Sadly I don't remember which video had a link do that. And no, it was not a boomerang throw. He grabbed someone, threw them, then jumped in the air and did the same animation for the grab. Perhaps a glitch?

A video reference would be helpful. I've not seen the clip you're describing here.

 

[Keeshu]

A video reference would be helpful. I've not seen the clip you're describing here.

If I ever find it again I will surely post it.

Edit: If it helps at all, I saw it on the breath of the wild Map just in case there's some glitch with that map I haven't heard of yet. I'm still thinking it's just some glitch though because It'd be weird to have link with a midair grab and that doesnt even reference BOTW. It'll probably be patched out.

 

[BrazenBunnies]

Personally I'm liking the new Link so far, even if he hasn't been massively changed. I like the remote bombs (but then again there's Snake for that too... but Link feels better than him usually). The main problem I have is that his Up B doesnt seem to go very far.
I'm curious about how powerful this sword beam is. Can it KO? because that would even stocks out quickly if so if link died first and was using invincibility frames. I just dont see Link players even try to do that, and they often get hit first.

I have a question. I saw Link do the grab animation while in the air. So instead of doing zair does he have an air grab now? Sadly I don't remember which video had a link do that. And no, it was not a boomerang throw. He grabbed someone, threw them, then jumped in the air and did the same animation for the grab. Perhaps a glitch?

They did end up nerfing EVERYONE's recovery so I'm not too surprised. I'd love to see the air grabbing, but it's probably a glitch.

 

[Spatman]

Well, air grab wouldn't have sense for Link. I hope he doesn't have that (and surely he hasn't)

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

M2K's thoughts (and Salem's thoughts) on Link: https://youtu.be/EDSNqkfquCo?t=210 (timestamp)

 

[BrazenBunnies]

M2K's thoughts (and Salem's thoughts) on Link: https://youtu.be/EDSNqkfquCo?t=210 (timestamp)

Thanks! I should've been subscribed to m2k earlier, but yeah his edge guarding/trapping game will be helped a ton by remote bombs.