Difference between "exploits" and "tricks"?

[greenblob]

With Brawl's announcement and Melee becoming more and more popular, what has often been called "glitches" or "exploits" have received new criticism from the newcomers. Especially heavily attacked is the wavedash, which is often banned in casual, FFA tournaments. Many people who argue against wavedashing say that it's a glitch or something that was never meant to be in Melee.
I'm not so sure about this, but I think wavedashing was discovered after the game had gone through the production and testing stages. I'm not so sure about this either, but I think the vast majority of Smashers (or at least the ones who visit these forums) don't consider wavedashing a glitch since characters are supposed to slide when they hit the ground after an air dodge or slide when hitting the ground after certain moves that put them in "helpless" mode due to the momentum (I think it's called the "landfallspecial"?), which would mean that wavedashing is just taking advantage of this by doing it instantaneously in a perfectly legal manner.

With that out of the way, the main point: Wavedashing is largely considered an "exploit"--something that doesn't take advantage of or manipulate the programming but instead uses the existing game mechanics in such a way that was never "meant" to be in the game.
Then what about the bomb jump recovery? I'm pretty sure that although Samus is supposed to bomb jump (something that's also in the Metroid games themselves), but I really doubt that the programmers ever thought of using it for recovery, making it an "exploit." What about edge-cancelled eggs or any other ledge-cancelling techniques? What about land-cancelling (missile cancel, SHL, etc.)? What about float cancelling? There's also using rising pounds/the cape/Marth's forward B/etc. for recovery purposes, edge-hogging, abuse of invincibility frames, the list goes on and on. Why are these never criticized? They're not even called exploits--instead they're called "tricks" or "secrets."

So..
What would you consider the dividing line between a "trick" and an "exploit," keeping in mind Brawl's development and what should happen with current advanced techniques? Do you think there is a difference?
Is there anything that's factually wrong/that you disagree with/that I missed?

 

[Zink]

I'd say wavedashing is a physics exploit while something like bombjumps or chainthrowing is a gameplay exploit. There are few actual glitches in SSBM- black hole, YYG, freeze glitch, and Link super jump. These are different because they are in direct violation of the physics engine or gameplay- i.e., in Link super jump you aren't supposed to jump that high, making it a physics glitch, while YYG has a permanent disjointed hitbox, which is in violation of gameplay.

 

[A-Laon]

An "exploit" is a useful tactic a noob doesn't want to take the time to learn and instead flames those who take advantage of it for being a part of the game.

Everything else is a useful tactic the noobs can do, and hence give them honorable titles such as "secrets" or "techniques."

In other words, don't bother even trying to decipher legitimate terminology. If it's in the game and isn't banned, call it a tactic and use it.

Anyway, now that I'm done with my own little personal rant...

The only part of melee you could argue to be "wrong" would be the wavedash as it is a programmed error in the result of air dodging into the ground, not just a move being used in an unintended way. It's really just a strange coincidence that it works out as a balanced and practical technique in actual gameplay, but it's because of this that it's legal. Likely, Nintendo won't ignore it's use, even if its existence is a mistake, and I can foresee brawl containing a similar move, though this time actually intended.

 

[pdk]

honestly, who cares about scrubs who act like WDing is an instant game-winner?

anyway, the only things in ssbm that i think should be banned aside from the obvious (certain fox-centric stages, items, etc) are tactics that reduce the game to a one-note symphony; things like luigi ladder, puff/peach stalling, the wobbles infinite, basically any true infinites since then you can simply get a one-stock advantage and run down the timer with these to win

also there's really not much basis at all for arguing that it's a glitch how characters retain their horizontal motion after airdodging into the ground, or how you can airdodge on the first frame of a jump

 

[Mcscruff]

i agree. Wavedashing wasn't an intended part of the game, but the developers knew about it and chose not to take it out. if all the noobs don't like the fact that we use wavedashing...then they can kiss my ***.

 

[fabianmo]

As they have said before there are only a few glitches in the game such as the Black Hole, Links super Jump, etc.
An exploit is when u can use a move like nobody else or invent another use for that move, for example Samus Bomb Jump, its supposed to be there but there has been invented alot of way sto use them, the one most used being the recovery.
Another perfect example is wavedash, its just jumping and dodging into the ground, that doesnt work right? Now what if we use it to dodge, create mindgames, etc; we are exploiting it so we can make it work into the game.
Like in many other games the noobs are the one complaining about advanced moves, for example in MKDS about snaking.

 

[A-Laon]

if all the noobs don't like the fact that we use wavedashing...then they can kiss my ***.

One of the most blatantly perfect statements I've ever read on smashboards.

 

[Pye]

My opinion on this has always been pretty straightforward: There is VERY LITTLE about a program that the programmer does not know.

Wavedashing, I believe is 100% intentional. Somebody had to program the code that said, in layman's terms, "if you hit a surface during an airdodge, then slide while standing". The fact that wavedashing has a name and is so incredibaly (spelling?) useful now was, of course, completely unforseen. But it is deffinitly intentional. Also, if you look at AR, a wavedash is listed as a "land special" or something like that, as mentioned in the origional post. AR recodnizes it as something legit. Again, I think wavedashing was intended to exist.

Samus' bomb jumps may or may not have been intentional. Someone programmed how long the lag after a bomb is, someone programmed the fact that you stop in midair while laying one, and someone programmed how fast they fall, etc etc etc. Wether or not Nintendo knew that all this coincided to allow Samus to bomb jump like she can is unknown, but I deffinitly would not put it aside. It's very possible that bomb jumping is intentional.

As for canceling the lag on *insert projectile here* by landing, that HAS to be intentional, simply because some projectiles' animations are canceled by landing, while others ignore it completely. Falco and Fox's lasers and Samus' missiles are all lag free upon landing in the middle of its animation. This was programmed intentionally. It had to have been. Mario/Doc, Pikachu/Pichu and Link/YL's projectiles, all of them, still run through the complete animation on a landing. If all projectiles could be landing-canceled, it could have been a an unforseenly useful attribute, like wavedashing, but thats not the case: only some of them do. This was also intentional. The two completely different behaviors of the animations mean that at least one of them was put in on purpose. Who knows why: it may be left over from beta stages, thought to be unimportant. It could also be put in on purpose for whatever reason. But the fact is, it's programmed. It's there. Somebody wrote it in.

Things like the SWD, Link's super jump and the IC freeze glitch are different though. They only happen for one character. A slip up in the coding is bound to happen. The reason I don't think SHL is a glitch like these is because two characters can do it, which to me implies it was programmed twice. Once could have been an accident, but the fact that both the space animals and Samus can do it makes it intentional (an accident repeated 3 times over? Doubtful). All characters can wavedash, just like all characters can l-cancel. Likely intentional. Some characters can cancel animations by landing, while others can't. Probably done of purpose.

Reading this over, I realise that it's kind of all over the place, is terribly formatted and a very complicated read :S I hope people understand it, lol.

 

[Eaode]

Pye, I'm going to have to put explanations for all of those things in my sig because so many people don't know about them.
EDIT: all i could fit in the character limit was Wavedashing, but whatever.

 

[pdk]

wavedashing is really clearly just the result of two "sure what the hell" decisions on the part of the game designers (explained em already), not necessarily intentional but still not a big deal

 

[phanna]

A glitch is a manipulation of what a game should do, in order produce behaviour which is contrary to what could reasonably happen, as opposed to emergent behaviour, which isn't obvious game techniques, but a reasonable aspect of the game which fits with the rest of the game rules and spirit. An exploit is any glitch which violates the spirit of the game or prevents the rest of the game from operating as it should.

 

[M3tr01D]

Use any technique that doesn't freeze or stall the game forever. IC Freeze glitch is something that freezes the game and makes it unplayable so it isn't legit. Wavedashing doesn't freeze the game or make it unplayable in any way. In fact, it makes the game more fun because you can do more techniques.

SWD is obviously a glitch (slamming the control stick back and forth after laying a bomb gives NO reason at all to make you slide across the stage) However, it doesn't make the game unplayable in any way so it is useable.

L cancel, bomb jump, shine cancel, SHL, fast fall, DI, CC, short hop, stick jump, dash dance etc etc etc have ALL been around in both games there is no way they were not discovered and coded for incorrectly two games.

If people complain about how you play the game when it's something that doesn't make the game unplayable just do it more. When my friends say shine spike and shine cancel is cheap sometimes I'll do it the whole stock. You don't have to be governed by the rules of people who just suck at the game.

 

[Pye]

Pye, I'm going to have to put explanations for all of those things in my sig because so many people don't know about them.
EDIT: all i could fit in the character limit was Wavedashing, but whatever.

So my entire post was wrong?

I acualy didn't know what you put in your sig, although you could've just typed it, it would've worked just as well. I just don't see how things with such variaty in the game could be an accident, especially when they exist in several different places (lag-canceling on land), or if the odds for everything to allow it to work are beyond what can be reasonably called a coincidence (bomb jumping).

If you've got sig room, explain please.

 

[Eaode]

I decided on sig because I end up having to explain it over again alot. Unfortunately, I Don't have room to fit everything I wanted to say, so I guess I say some of my thoughts here.

Wavedashing has an explanation in my sig already.

Here's my take on Auto cancelling. Note that this is what I believe. Nobody can really know the truth unless they were the programmer(s). My take on it is that as opposed to your thining, I think that the physics automatically make you land upon touching the ground. Auto cancelling is a LACK of extra programming, not a result of extra programming. The extra programming needs to be done to have the animation CONTINUE. There is a good example of this already. In the first version of the game (1.0), if you used bowser's flame attack in the air, the animation would halt when you landed (due to a lack of specific coding for that action). In the next version of the game (1.1), this was changed so that the animation would continue even if bowser landed during it. This leads me to believe the above theory that a lack of specific landing code for that move will cause it to end in the regular landing animation (cutting the original animation of and reducing lag).


Although L-cancelling, I believe, speaks for itself. It is obviously intentional, as that button input would have no effect otherwise, and it was in both games.

As a last not on auto cancelling: Fox and Falco both having auto cancelling projectiles is no indication of spontaneous repitition because the same coding was reused, so, because fox had it, falco has it.

And also, everyone having a WD does not indicate that it is intentiona. It is an effect of the pysics of the game engine itself and is not tied to any character specifically so it doesn't matter if all characters are capable of doing.



I hope that this is organized enough ^_^;;

Does that help.

 

[Pye]

Yes, thank you. Thats acualy a good way of looking at auto-canceling (I knew there was a name for it. Man, typing out "canceled lag on land" over and over was tiresome XD). I didn't think of that. You're probably right, too. Great, now my whole post up there is a waste of space, except maybe the bomb jumping part. Ah well.

Well, my opinion remains unchanged: wether something a glitch or not, it exists, and if it's not banned, use it. I've posted this quote before, and I post it again: "It is not your job to go easy so that your opponent can suck less". Tell them to find ways around it instead of complaining so much.

 

[Pneuma]

The people who dislike wavedash either can't do it or can't compete. Their opinions are not important.

 

[Schweppes]

They aren't people.

 

[BrTarolg]

ok heres my thought.

firstly, nobody knows if wavedash is intentional or not. dont give me that "land fall special" crap, and dont give me "producers knew it was in there"

landfallspecial is the name given to being on the ground in a neutral position whilst still being lagged. there are MANY examples of this - such as landing an up+B on the ground, or landing in an unrecoverable state. just because wavedash results in this does not make it an intentional addition.

something like l-cancelling is a very specific addition, that is mentioned and known to be an intentional part of the game, as it requires an active action, and gives a very specific result due to programming.

however, autocancelling, such as float cancelling, and shl, may or may not be intentional. its not new btw - this kind of this has existed since the dawn of fighter games like in street fighter where you could land an aerial and follow it up with any attack you felt like.
its programmed that when you hit the ground, you land. in some cases you land differently <ala landfall special when you land an up+B with lag into the ground with certain up+bs which move both up and down in the same movement> - but its programmed that when you land, you receive the regular landing animation. for things like aerials, it is programmed that you have landing lag.

just because falcos lasers autocancel does not mean its intentional because some projectiles do and some dont. its more likely that its a LACK of additional programming, which gets copied over onto the other character. for example, its likely they programmed fox first <for various reasons> - and saw no problem with his laser, and thus just copied the code over for falco.

things like float cancelling, im almost certain are oversights, theres very little reason why attacking during a float and landing it straight after should result in no lag. its probably due to some of the landing code of a float taking precedence over the aerial lag, and the programmers failed to see this.

i like to take the opposite view - programmers do NOT see everything in the game. did they see gameplay exploits like chainthrowing from 0 to death? not until later versions where they fixed it up for shiek.

even something as BLATANT as flame cancelling <its really, really obvious> didnt get fixed until after the game came out. that was probably the result of an oversight of the aattack having no landing lag programming into it - thus a lack of programming, same for the other autocancels. how could the programmers have missed something so blatant? well there you go.

wavedashing im almost certain was not intentional, and i really find it stupid that people keep saying that programmers knew about it and left it in, because if you look for yourself, on an action replay, the evidence for this is very small.
its not necessarily a "glitch" or "exploit" - its just how the physics engine works. is it a glitch that if you jump out of falcos shine you jump higher? well its just how the engine works - it applies the momentum that you get from the shine and passes it onto you, albeit in a very odd way. intentional - probably not. there are some easy fixes they could give.

since you are all agreeable on the SWD and super jump things, i wont mention those.

it just so happens that wavedash causes more good than harm, and that its a very interesting feature for competetive play, so theres no reason to take it out after the game has come out. its pure coincidence.

its the same coincidence that the freeze glitch is very harmful, and thus banned and removed in later versions.

 

[AlphaZealot]

The designers intent means little or nothing, there are tons of things used today that are not being used as the designer intended. It does not invalidate something as useful or legit just because it was not preconceived.

Think of Wavedashing like dunking in basketball. Dunking always existed in basketball. Yet it wasn't until the game had been around for awhile and the players became physically fit enough to dunk that the technique began to surface. When the game of basketball was drawn up, do you think the designer thought of people like Shaq one handing the ball into the rim? By the arguements made against wavedashing, after dunking became popular, 1)it should have been banned or 2)the rims should have been made higher.

Why these arguements are stupid? When something like wavedashing or dunking comes along, the technique should be evaluated in terms of what it adds to a game. Wavedashing adds to Smash, it doesn't detract from it. Dunking added to basketball, it didn't detract from it.

Regarding L-Canceling: It was coded it, it would have to be considering it follows and algorithim (1/2 lag for each move). Z-Canceling, from what I've been told, may very well have been a glitch/exploit because it cancels all lag, not 1/2. The two should probably not be associated.

 

[_Phloat_]

Finally a good debate type thing...

Anyway, I am not sure wether they were intentional or not, but I think that they added a depth to the game that otherwise would not have been achieved, bringing the game to the point that it needs more than mind games, it actually takes tech skill...

So, wether they are against the intentions of the designers or not, I will use them, unless I am at a friendly or something, and no one else is serious about playing the game...

Also, I think that wasting all of the clock at a tourney is banned

 

[_Phloat_]

I do not think that z cancelling stops all lag, I think it just works like the L cancel.


L cancel means lag cancel, not use the L button, I think

 

[ThatGuy]

I do not think that z cancelling stops all lag, I think it just works like the L cancel.


L cancel means lag cancel, not use the L button, I think

He's talking about Z cancelling from SSB 64 (since Z was the shield trigger). It cancelled ALL lag from ariels, unlike the 1/2 lag from Melee.

Also Pye, Samus's bomb jumps were clearly intentional. They even describe the tactic on one of the Samus trophies.

 

[BrTarolg]

oh btw guys - *just* saying that all these things "add" to the competetiveness of the game isnt true.

street fighter is one of the simplest fighting games in existence.
three special moves, one chosen super move <which is just an elaborate version of their special> - fixed jumps, fixed aerials and attacks, the same lag for everyone after landing an aerial. no scenery, no items. i think the differences are pretty clear.

but beleive me, if you play against a even *slightly* decent street fighter player, you will get *****, every single time, over and over again, even moreso than smash.
in smash, you got noobs who understand the basics of the game, and sometimes they are actually very good players. in some cases, you got alot of the best players who rarely use the fancier techniques because most of the time the simpler ones are more effective. these kinds of players can do just aswell as everyone else, given that the rest of their game is good enough. they might take one or two stock off you, even if you get a clear win.

against a street fighter player, in a best out of three match, you will lose two matches, both losing your stock twice. it is likely that the moment you do *any* special move they will move in with an aerial or follow up counter, possible air parry your move if it is required <because they can see it coming> - and then land an aerial, two lower moves, and then follow it up into either a high damaging special, throw or supermove.
until you are able to counter that, you will get ***** again, and again and again.

and players who have never even *touched* the competetive SF scene who play reguarly will know all the basic tactics and movements, most of the combos availiable, and a decent fighting strategy, usually more than enough to beat you 4 times in a row easily.

---

either way - i think you have to see the difference between a gameplay exploit and a glitch exploit.

a gameplay exploit is chainthrowing, shinespiking, edgehogging, throw to kill combos. things that wernt intended, but just happened a a result of the way which they programmed <intentionally> the game. its just how the **** game works, and you have to deal with it. its innovative things discovered by players and then used very effectively.
generally, nothing has *really* broken the game, except for certain stall tactics. and even the more damaging exploits <like shieks chainthrow from 0-100> was fixed in pal <loves pal even though im a shiek player.>

a glitch exploit is something like SWD, freeze glitch, WD. something which was not meant to happen at all. do a wavedash with luigi. does that look like its meant to be there?! show that to 100 players who have never seen wavedashing, and they will go "wow cool glitch".

but then again, what are you going to do about it? nobody cares - wavedash is a cool feature to have and it adds to the game. its not really gamebreaking either.
let me put it this way - you are NEVER supposed to slide along the ground in a neutral position with lag. but it happens all the time, and most of the time it means nothing so its left in as land fall special.
the fact is, wavedash <or lets go simpler, wavelanding, or just airdodging into the ground> - works by calculating the traction that character has, and it acts like the character has been hit somehow into the ground, without being hit, and without being in a non lagged position - thus allowing yourself to move over edges and the like because there was never any programming to stop you from doing so <like with regular walking> - it uses a NONEXISTANT mechanic - a mechanic that was never programmed <other than landfall special, which was left alone because its assumed that when landing from a up+b hitting the ground whilst going upwards should do nothing, and it would crash the game otherwise>. so its just the physics engine working things out for itself.

but w/e- its there, and people use it, and its a cool feature to have.

in SSB64, z-cancelling cancelled all lag. we dont know why, its probably some kind of glitch ovveride with the shield instead of regular landing, and the fact that z also acts as r at the same time.

 

[ThatGuy]

That's a false statement. If you actually watched the matches instead of listening to stories, pros use "fancy techniques" all the time. If your tech game isn't up to par, you will simply be overwhelmed. Name one pro that doesn't use advanced techniques effectively. Hell, even Masashi waveshines, isn't he known to be the anti-tech-meister? Wasn't it the emergence of Bombsoldier that influenced Falco's all over the world with his crazy tech skill, and why there was a surge of technical Falcos, and why Falco has been moved up the tier list?

Your argument is irrelivent. If I showed a wall tech to people who have never seen (or at least recognized) a wall tech, they'll say "Wow, cool glitch". Ignorance does not mean they know.

Stop comparing Street Fighter and the like to Smash, the only comparision you can draw between those games is that they are both fighter genres. The game engine is COMPLETELY different. In Street Fighter, you don't have the DI factor. Street Fighter is more about priority and judgement. In MvC2, there are infinite combos that instantly kill the opponent. Besides the IC infinite grab, name an infinite combo in smash. You can't, because DI can and will always break it, if the person knows how to.

Throw to kill combos? How could they not intend it? How is that a gameplay exploit? Is a stomp to knee with Falcon a gameplay exploit too? Name me, again aside from Ice Climbers Infinite Grab, a guarenteed throw-to-kill combo. That's an ambiguous statement too. Is it like, throwing and then using a move to kill (Marth Uthrow to Fsmash on Space Animals), or throwing and comboing the person and ending with a finisher (Shiek Dthrow, Ftilt, Fair)? DI can break either.

Chainthrowing with Shiek is not broken, it only works on certain characters (albiet a very large cast), DI can break it eventually, the chaingrabber can mess up, or you can simply not get grabbed in the first place. And it's not a guarenteed kill combo.

Edgehogging was intended, I think it was even in a Nintendo instruction manual or strategy guide somewhere. If it wasn't intended, they would have allowed multiple characters to grab the edge, right?

Also, noobs who understand the basics still aren't good players, until you know the advanced scene you still suck.

You need a much better argument than that.

 

[BrTarolg]

i didnt say pros didnt use techniques effectively, i just said its often more effective to use a simple technique because it does more damage.

if youre marth and someone does a laggy attack you just tipper them with the c-stick, for an easy 20% damage to follow up with the best edgeguarding game of all the characters. theres no point in trying to do something funny like a fthrow chainthrow to tipped fairs, usually because of DI.

something like a tech, is pretty obvious its not a glitch, buecause it has a specific activation, and a specific effect, which is the same every single time, and for every single character, and was specifically and intentionally programmed into the game.

shiek's chainthrowing from 0 to 100 is a gameplay exploit. im not complaining about it - thats just what it is. its the innovation of players finding something uniquely gamebreaking. you dont think its gamebreaking? look at the tier list. the whole **** thing is shaped because of it. "eventually" is about 50% after the point she can kill you with a tilt and slap.

when i say throw to kill - does it look like its intended that as a marth player you should be able to throw a falco around so much that they end up at a killable percentage and then you have a 100% garuanteed kill? i really hope not. i should expect that programmers would not have expected something like that to happen.

no, DI CANT break the chainthrow, though id like to see you try. i *promise* you if you get grabbed as roy by shiek on FD, youre going to be chainthrowin until you get to the edge at which point you get ftilt to slap.

when i said edgehogging - was being vague. really i mean the way edgehogging REALLY works - when people use the roll animation to hog it even after theve left the edge. programmers didnt realise that players could abuse the invulnerability frames in such a way it was at the same time impossible to knock them off the edge, and that you could not grab the edge even though they were no longer touching it.

you can get by just fine with basic techniques. no WD, no shffling, no edgeteching. some characters do rubbish <like falco> if you try and play like this, but there are plenty of characters who excel without any of this <like shiek.> you cant just assume players "suck" because they dont play using fancy techniques.

playing against marth with falco, and having the marth get a lone shieldgrab and chainthrow me to 50% and then tipper and edgeguard doesnt require any advanced techniques.

 

[full_95]

this whole argument is irrelevant. whether you call them gameplay exploits, physics exploits, glitches, blah blah blah, the fact of the matter is that they are useable moves in the game. everybody has an equal opportunity to learn advanced moves, and i am sick of hearing people cry about them just because they wont take the time to learn the moves themselves. i spent a lot of time learning advanced techniques and i am gonna use them. if they arent in brawl, ill just figure out other ways to accomplish the same endgame that advanced techniques have led me too in melee. see it doesn't matter if they take the advanced techs from melee out of brawl, cuz new ones will evolve and noobs will still ***** about it, it's the circle of life man.

By the way, did anyone else watch that boise state oklahoma game last night? there was some of the most rediculous trickery that i have ever witnessed in my life in the end of that game.

 

[Edg]

"Exploit" and "Trick" are two terms that mean the same thing but in a different way, like saying "half full" or "half empty". Basically meaning something that was not put in the game on purpose but resulting from something that was (like airdashing onto a platorm was supposed to slide you... it just wasnt meant to be a form of movement). You could call anything whatever you want, and non competitive newcomers can make whatever rules they want regarding wavedashing in their home games, but when playing other people the only important thing regarding "exploits" or "tricks" is that both players agree on what the rules are about them.

 

[Red Exodus]

New players these days... So what if someone can chaingrab you? If they have enough skill to catch you again and again you should be owned by them, especially when you got to tournaments.

Bomb jumps take skill, you don't just drop a few bombs and and hope you make it back, you have to time them, space them, and looking out for edgeguarders at the same time. In Link's case it's a little harder to do it right since he has huge lag on just about every move.

L-cancelling, WDing and DIing can be do by all characters so I don't see the big deal. Whoever learned these moves and found a way to use them well deserves to kick some newbie ***.

 

[MaskedMarth]

Wavedashing is not one of those things that crops up by accident. A programmer has to explicitly say "when you air-dodge into the ground you enter the landfallspecial animation and you plug "traction" and "angle of air dodge" into an equation to determine how far you slide." Both the landfallspecial and the slide were totally intentional. Air dodging into the ground immediately after a jump? They probably didn't think of that possibility, or at least didn't dwell on it very long.

 

[urban_shinobi]

look, it is close to physics. say you take a lake, frozen over( to the point of supporting a smalll car) and you jumped onto it.....you slide, escpecially if you lay low to the ground. it isnt just meerely glithin or a trick of the eyes, it is what needed to be in there. this isnt a real life universe ( in smash) and just think of old shows that everyone loved.
in dbz, once they jump, punch, and land (even if it is a short distance) you see them slide back. this is fighting, w/o humans, so that aspect had to have been in, just to make it better

 

[Seyasha]

Wavedashing is a glitch, I mean the prodcucer didn't INTEND to put in the game, I'd say the word defect is more apropiate. While it most likely won't be in brawl, why complain when you can't do sommething? Doesn't that just make you look even more pathetic?

You know who the noobs are, they are they guys that say, "ur a noob cuz ur glitchn nd ur gay" >_>

 

[urban_shinobi]

i think one of the guys in glasses behind programming put it in, and didnt tell anyone, cuz it makes sense to have it (even though i just learned how to actually do it) just that for some characters it is uneeded

 

[247Marthathon]

i think an exploit is something that puts you at a much greater advantage than another player. i think the wavedash is a trick because everyone can do it, its simply a better evade. the samus grab where her beam goes twice as long is an exploit. it is basically pressing random buttons until you get that easter egg. it even goes through the person!! its a very fine line and someone said it well by saying its a trick when you can do it and an exploit when you cant. theres exploits in all games and this is no exception.

 

[Seyasha]

exploit. it is basically pressing random buttons until you get that easter egg.

Hmm, that make sme wonder... how do you suppose people learned about Wavedashing/ Lcancelling? it's not something you tend to find on accident. I mean it's not like, "I think I'll air dodge really close to the ground and see what happens... OMG HAX" I think it may have been put into the game on purpose (contradictory to my previos post) and just , "leeked" out.

 

[Mcscruff]

oh btw guys - *just* saying that all these things "add" to the competetiveness of the game isnt true.

street fighter is one of the simplest fighting games in existence.
three special moves, one chosen super move <which is just an elaborate version of their special> - fixed jumps, fixed aerials and attacks, the same lag for everyone after landing an aerial. no scenery, no items. i think the differences are pretty clear.

but beleive me, if you play against a even *slightly* decent street fighter player, you will get *****, every single time, over and over again, even moreso than smash.
in smash, you got noobs who understand the basics of the game, and sometimes they are actually very good players. in some cases, you got alot of the best players who rarely use the fancier techniques because most of the time the simpler ones are more effective. these kinds of players can do just aswell as everyone else, given that the rest of their game is good enough. they might take one or two stock off you, even if you get a clear win.

against a street fighter player, in a best out of three match, you will lose two matches, both losing your stock twice. it is likely that the moment you do *any* special move they will move in with an aerial or follow up counter, possible air parry your move if it is required <because they can see it coming> - and then land an aerial, two lower moves, and then follow it up into either a high damaging special, throw or supermove.
until you are able to counter that, you will get ***** again, and again and again.

and players who have never even *touched* the competetive SF scene who play reguarly will know all the basic tactics and movements, most of the combos availiable, and a decent fighting strategy, usually more than enough to beat you 4 times in a row easily.

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either way - i think you have to see the difference between a gameplay exploit and a glitch exploit.

a gameplay exploit is chainthrowing, shinespiking, edgehogging, throw to kill combos. things that wernt intended, but just happened a a result of the way which they programmed <intentionally> the game. its just how the **** game works, and you have to deal with it. its innovative things discovered by players and then used very effectively.
generally, nothing has *really* broken the game, except for certain stall tactics. and even the more damaging exploits <like shieks chainthrow from 0-100> was fixed in pal <loves pal even though im a shiek player.>

a glitch exploit is something like SWD, freeze glitch, WD. something which was not meant to happen at all. do a wavedash with luigi. does that look like its meant to be there?! show that to 100 players who have never seen wavedashing, and they will go "wow cool glitch".

but then again, what are you going to do about it? nobody cares - wavedash is a cool feature to have and it adds to the game. its not really gamebreaking either.
let me put it this way - you are NEVER supposed to slide along the ground in a neutral position with lag. but it happens all the time, and most of the time it means nothing so its left in as land fall special.
the fact is, wavedash <or lets go simpler, wavelanding, or just airdodging into the ground> - works by calculating the traction that character has, and it acts like the character has been hit somehow into the ground, without being hit, and without being in a non lagged position - thus allowing yourself to move over edges and the like because there was never any programming to stop you from doing so <like with regular walking> - it uses a NONEXISTANT mechanic - a mechanic that was never programmed <other than landfall special, which was left alone because its assumed that when landing from a up+b hitting the ground whilst going upwards should do nothing, and it would crash the game otherwise>. so its just the physics engine working things out for itself.

but w/e- its there, and people use it, and its a cool feature to have.

in SSB64, z-cancelling cancelled all lag. we dont know why, its probably some kind of glitch ovveride with the shield instead of regular landing, and the fact that z also acts as r at the same time.

if you like street fighter so much, why dont you just quit smash and play street fighter?
why does everyone have to discuss this? noobs are always going to complain about wavedashing because they cant do it, and they think its the only reason as to why you are better than them. how to stop their whining: " kiss my *** noob, ill wavedash if i want", it works for me every time.