Diddys worst Match Ups?

[ep1c_marf]

whats up guys im a marth main that struggles with the diddy match up and was wondering what his worst matchups are. I heard falco but are there any other match ups he struggles with? Thanks in advance !

 

[Praxis]

IMO Diddy loses to:

Mewtwo
Luigi
Zelda
Kirby
Peach
Squirtle

at minimum. I don't have experience with a lot of characters in PM so it's quite possible there's more (my region does not have a good Lucas, Lucario, Pit, Snake, etc).

However, I don't think you should be looking to counterpick. Diddy vs Marth is pretty even. The above characters beat Diddy because of their unique ability to control or ignore his bananas. You are probably better served as Marth by learning to control bananas. Marth has a fantastic reverse glide toss and a lot of followups out of it, and can combo Diddy quite badly once he gets in. Marth doesn't lose to Diddy, so why counterpick?

If you mentally can't handle fighting Diddy with a character that has the tools to, switching to another character with a slight advantage probably won't fix your hangups.

I'd focus on learning your banana game, picking up naners with Z-catch and wavedash, and glide tossing.

 

[ep1c_marf]

IMO Diddy loses to:

Mewtwo
Luigi
Zelda
Kirby
Peach
Squirtle

at minimum. I don't have experience with a lot of characters in PM so it's quite possible there's more (my region does not have a good Lucas, Lucario, Pit, Snake, etc).

However, I don't think you should be looking to counterpick. Diddy vs Marth is pretty even. The above characters beat Diddy because of their unique ability to control or ignore his bananas. You are probably better served as Marth by learning to control bananas. Marth has a fantastic reverse glide toss and a lot of followups out of it, and can combo Diddy quite badly once he gets in. Marth doesn't lose to Diddy, so why counterpick?

If you mentally can't handle fighting Diddy with a character that has the tools to, switching to another character with a slight advantage probably won't fix your hangups.

I'd focus on learning your banana game, picking up naners with Z-catch and wavedash, and glide tossing.

whats reverse glide toss?

 

[Praxis]

whats reverse glide toss?

And this is why you have trouble with Diddy, lol.

Okay, glide tossing is cancelling the startup of your roll with a banana throw so you get a long slide, right?

Well, you get different distances out of your glide toss depending on whether you use your backwards roll or forwards roll.

Most characters like Diddy have similar distances either way, but Marth has a very, very long backwards roll glide toss.

Rolling backwards while C-sticking the direction you want to throw gives you a super long glide toss.

And you can dash dance or reverse aerial rush to turn around right before you do the glide toss, and C-stick the direction you want to be facing, so you're not limited to merely retreating with it.

Marth can cross, like, half of FD with a turnaround backwards glide toss while doing a standing grab and chasing a banana.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I don't think switching off of an even matchup for a better matchup is too bad. Sometimes you just don't have the right mindset to do the matchup with your main, but you have a much easier time applying it with a different character. :o It would probably be better for you as a player in the long run to learn matchups that give you trouble though. It makes you godlike in the ones you're okay with/like.

 

[Praxis]

Just to elaborate:

Spoiler: Mewtwo

Of course, Diddy has spacie fall speed, so Mewtwo gets all kinds of crazy combos on him. Mewtwo hits Diddy particularly hard though. He has very powerful combos out of grab, and then kills early with uthrow. He also is extremely well suited to edgeguarding Diddy, with a dsmash that punishes Diddy's poor sweetspotting and a bair that smacks him right out of barrels and side-B.

Diddy, in turn, can't combo Mewtwo very well because he's floaty.

So, Mewtwo punishes Diddy harder than Diddy punishes Mewtwo...but that's just where it starts.

Mewtwo's long wavedash is extremely good for safely taking banana control. Mewtwo's long glidetoss is extremely powerful for using bananas against Diddy. Mewtwo's teleport allows him to instantly get to nearby bananas and immediately wavedash. Mewtwo can float over grounded bananas without tripping. And Mewtwo's reflector takes control of bananas.

In short, Mewtwo has better tools to gain control of bananas, better tools to use the bananas, better rewards for using the bananas (getting a grab or fair out of techchase), better edgeguarding tools, and in general kills faster and combos better.

This is a bad matchup if the opponent can use bananas.

Spoiler: Luigi

Not Diddy's worst matchup, but it's unusually frustrating. Luigi's excellent wavedash lets him get to and control bananas quickly. He can combo Diddy quite nicely and his nair makes most of Diddy's chases and surprises look silly. You will rarely land a side-B grab and he will safely slide out of almost all of Diddy's pressure from peanuts and bananas and weak aerials.

You can't pressure Luigi well, or combo him well. Meanwhile, he can combo you hard. IMO Luigi has a slight advantage in this MU.

Spoiler: Zelda

Initially, on the surface, Zelda doesn't seem horrible. Yeah, her invincible Nayru's Love reflector takes control of bananas AND punishes your followup, so you lose a lot of your normally safe approach options, but you think you can adapt to that and bait it out. You can't combo her well but you can use items to shut down her air options and juggle her landings, Brawl style. This seems a pretty even matchup.

Until the Zelda learns item play, and discovers that using Teledashing (airdodge cancelled grounded up-B teleport), the Zelda player can instantly teleport to and grab any banana with a wavedash to cancel the teleport. Worse, the Zelda can actually teleport to AGT. The precision required of the Zelda is very high, but against a Zelda that can consistently teledash to AGT or teledash to wavedash pickup, you cannot leave a banana lying around- ever. This means Diddy essentially has to play with one naner, and be super careful with it (because of nayrus). A Zelda that can handle banana games shuts down Diddy's naner game so hard that he barely gains anything off of it.

Zelda has a notable advantage in this MU, IMO. Not as bad as Mewtwo though.

Spoiler: Kirby

Kirby gets all kinds of nutty spacie, combos on Diddy, doesn't get combo'd very hard, can survive most of his spike gimmicks, has some incredibly good throw techchases on Diddy, and doesn't get techchased or combo'd hard in return. His short size significantly reduces the pressure you can put on him with peanuts and bananas. Slight advantage IMO.

Spoiler: Peach

Peach has a lot of tools to control bananas, and most Peach players know how to play with items. She can groundfloat right over bananas without fear and her spacing mechanics just don't lend to the kind of pressure Diddy usually puts out. Dsmash can mess you up and so can turnip snipes. Slight advantage IMO.

Spoiler: Squirtle

Squirtle is hard to follow up on. Similar to Luigi, he kind of slips out of all of your banana pressure. Meanwhile, he's got a good banana game and can side-B right over your naners, messing up your normal spacing. He can kill hard with throws and is just in general solid against Diddy. Slight advantage on Diddy IMO.

Diddy is either even or slightly disadvantaged to Falco, and probably even or slight disadvantage to Sonic. I think Sonic is gimmick heavy but they are particularly good gimmicks against Diddy. (All of Sonic's spin stuff goes right over bananas and he can edgeguard Diddy with springs in a very stupid looking way.)

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Got to disagree on Luigi Zelda and peach praxis.
Luigi : outside of wave dashing is an exponentially slow character. This means with banana on the ground in front of you , you can make a wall with peanuts to where he has no way of approaching at all outside of jumping. If he rushes the zone, the wave dash either picks up the peanut then he slides straight to you for a smash attack punish, or he eats accumulating peanut damage. This is the m.u to pull out the double banana lol. His recovery is easily gimped by peanuts, and Luigi is highly vulnerable to being outzoned just don't fight the air priority straight on. This m.u is probably 6:4 in diddy's favor with a brawl mentality. Force the player to use the less optimal approach options and avoid that dair.
Zelda: Is a slow and floaty character that has very powerful punishes. Best way to approach her is with a banana in hand to bait that neutral b. Peanuts are great in this m.u cause most of the time they break upon hitting Zelda's neutral b, meaning you can run in dtilt lock over her land cancel. This m.u feels very even, cause her dins fire is completely worthless in this m.u. bair banana and walking away for 3 seconds all get rid of din's fire. And if you get your upb cut off by them, the barrels fly off after her. Zelda as a character is strongly over hyped. a rare match where agt down from the sky works very well.
Peach: don't have to put as much writeup into this cause of the melee experience. In this fight play her like you would play with toon link in melee. This means a lot of peanuts(your boomerang) and bananas(your bombs) she approaches from the air, so spaced back air(jpuff) retreats and spacing fair(marth) works nicely. Do not crouchcancel!!!
The rest of the m.u I don't have enough experience in, though mew two I agree is annoying cause of how long he forces you to play in the air agt to find an opening through that range. But every character with a good wave dash for bananas is not a bad m.u. though squirtle can kick rocks the annoying #%$%. So annoying to fight, chain grab only goes so far if you can't grab him. Lastly doesn't side b still go through Sonic's rolls and leads to regrab up throw to dair and/or sideb, or did they get rid of that?

 

[didds]

I also agree on Peach not being bad. It's just bad if you don't camp and utilize diddy's anit float gun like you should in the mu.

 

[Praxis]

I can accept the Luigi/Peach ones, but have you ever fought a Zelda with an excellent banana game and teledash > AGT?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

The Zelda I fight has a decent item game, its just the execution for it is exceedingly high and the payoff is exceedingly low. If she upbs, most of the time I send out a peanut just in case and get ready for naryu's love. On top of that she is too slow to really get any followups on the items. Notice this match I had at even, cause with good play she can set a decent wall, and she has good kill power. Just every wiffed naryu's love leads to a monkey flip>dair. In general though, Zelda is a very defensive character and doesn't have the ability to force diddy to approach past mid long range. If I remember right, Zelda's gt is garbage, so She can't be unpredictable with the item till she jumps. She has minimum approaches and followups while holding it, and has no way to protect herself from non cardinal approaches. Diddy and a many other characters get a lot more bang off tech chases than her as well. Would love it if mew two picked up bananas more, that is more time I don't have to worry about that ranged tilt game or grab.
I do appreciate how you get in depth with your arguments and to your point, no I don't think a good Zelda with items really exist yet. Right now I feel its in my favor when I fight, but no Zelda really specializes in item play.

 

[Praxis]

See, I fight a Zelda who is really good at item play, and I only win because he's kind of robotic (he tries too hard to always pick the best option so he's predictable). I do just as well with my secondaries or nanerless Diddy as I do with my regular Diddy, because he uses the naners so well.

 

[Angrycuban]

I dont think peach beats Diddy but its not really bad for her. Yeah she cna float and control items but her poor movement speed and horrible wave dash mean that diddy can really camp her out hard. Its kinda like Fox in melee, if Diddy camps hard peach can't do much but if you can get a smaller stage or actually get in once in a while you can do a lot of damage so its fairly even IMO. II wouldn't recommend picking peach up for the diddy match up though its not really worth it, marth does fine. Honestly before you switch characters id recommend learning the match up with your main more

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

OK I love pm, but would anyone else agree that some of the ledge antics are kind of impossible to punish. Trying to get mew two off the ledge is starting to feel like getting puff off the ledge in melee with captain falcon, except unless your mew two, your always captain falcon. Mew two kirby sheik and a few other characters may actually lead to a ledge grab limit. Just seems kind of messed up, even with items and projectiles, they are completely invincible through the duration of the move and can waste out the clock. Why is this not considered stalling? 1-8 times sure, 18-45 its ridiculous, I just back away from the ledge, but they keep doing it anyway. Any way to punish this?

 

[DeFish]

Spam side taunt, go for the psychological warfare.

 

[Praxis]

OK I love pm, but would anyone else agree that some of the ledge antics are kind of impossible to punish. Trying to get mew two off the ledge is starting to feel like getting puff off the ledge in melee with captain falcon, except unless your mew two, your always captain falcon. Mew two kirby sheik and a few other characters may actually lead to a ledge grab limit. Just seems kind of messed up, even with items and projectiles, they are completely invincible through the duration of the move and can waste out the clock. Why is this not considered stalling? 1-8 times sure, 18-45 its ridiculous, I just back away from the ledge, but they keep doing it anyway. Any way to punish this?

I know what you're talking about because Emukiller did it to Mew2King and Armada.

If you edgehogged wouldn't Mewtwo kill himself? You could threaten edgehog and punish Mewtwo's teleport to the stage...

Otherwise, the game needs Brawl's ledge grab limit. And this will probably be fixed next update.

Also, make sure you put on your sunglasses.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

I know what you're talking about because Emukiller did it to Mew2King and Armada.

If you edgehogged wouldn't Mewtwo kill himself? You could threaten edgehog and punish Mewtwo's teleport to the stage...

Otherwise, the game needs Brawl's ledge grab limit. And this will probably be fixed next update.

Also, make sure you put on your sunglasses.

Mewtwo still retains the jump and can go into canceled nair lock or retreating back air. in addition diddy cant cover the ground fast enough to go grab the ledge from a staller like that. and going anywhere near it gets me eating a fair or tilt. peanuts go straight through them, i even tried a double banana ladder drop while on smashville and nothing, too much invincibility lol. Maybe jump off reverse monkey flip kick will trade but that is about it.

 

[DeFish]

Maybe jump off reverse monkey flip kick will trade but that is about it.

That's a lot of commitment though, and if you miss it puts you in a really bad position.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

See, I fight a Zelda who is really good at item play, and I only win because he's kind of robotic (he tries too hard to always pick the best option so he's predictable). I do just as well with my secondaries or nanerless Diddy as I do with my regular Diddy, because he uses the naners so well.

Fair enough, even if this ends up being true, 4 bad m.u out of a game this deep without any being spacies is pretty good. Though I still feel like samus may end up Slight disadvantage, then again a samus with esam execution all the time is rare.
And to defish, my point was that all options to attempts to punish a repeating ledge grabber put you in a bad position. Though I do recommend flip kick to go through dk's upb if you can't set the barrel rocket in time.

 

[DeFish]

Even then, I think that those 4 might just need more work to actually figure out a good way to approach the matchup. One of the things that drew me to Diddy is the absurd number of tools he has that allow him to deal with different opponents and strategies. He can play campy with projectiles, patient with bananas, he can go balls deep like Captain Falcon, he can gimp offstage a million different ways... I feel like he has an answer to literally anything, if the player is creative enough to see it and adaptable enough to implement it. While Diddy's technical skill ceiling isn't as high as someone like Lucas, I feel like the mental skill ceiling for the person playing him is one of the highest in the game.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

b reverse waveland peanuts wallcling walljump glide toss ariel glide toss running down smash chain grabs that only works on certain characters at certain percents. ledge cancel fairs. shield drop nairs and the funniest one of all, the peanut aglide up banana toss forward. oos nair oos glide toss upb edgeguarding and that is about where diddy's technical game ends. The hard part is choosing the right time to do a certain punish and knowing your opponent's tech and d.i paterns. question, how much control does the person have of where they go flying when hit by sideb slap? Is it enough to mess up followups?

 

[DeFish]

It's enough to influence if you can follow up with a Fair or Bair, and on floatier characters they can DI up to get away at higher percents. Characters around Marth's weight and heavier really can't escape the follow up aerial, though.

 

[D-reckless]

I thought link would be a bad matchup for diddy because of his ridiculous range and projectile spamming. Idk if im missing something but ive been having some trouble with link.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Link spams the same speed as diddy with boomerang. On most stages diddy has access to chain throws. The only o.p thing about link is the up b spike that kills at 0 percent, and that is avoidable through baiting and sweet spotting. Link is just good, but kind of lacks a good gtf off me move. And gets comboed heavy. A pretty fair character. May be even at worst. Don't pick slant stages against him though, makes PS impossible and makes banana game weaker. Sky loft is good though

 

[DeFish]

The next time you have problems with projectiles, try doing a short hop -> peanut -> AGT banana. If you space close, you can get a grab if they shield all of those. If you time it so the peanut hits the boomerang, the banana follows through and hits Link. I'm not 100% consistent with this, but when I've pulled it off it's been very effective.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

The next time you have problems with projectiles, try doing a short hop -> peanut -> AGT banana. If you space close, you can get a grab if they shield all of those. If you time it so the peanut hits the boomerang, the banana follows through and hits Link. I'm not 100% consistent with this, but when I've pulled it off it's been very effective.

If you make diddy glide up while throwing the banana forward with the c stick, it becomes a lot more consistent.And yeah it works great for edge guarding fire emblem characters as well.

 

[Praxis]

The next time you have problems with projectiles, try doing a short hop -> peanut -> AGT banana. If you space close, you can get a grab if they shield all of those. If you time it so the peanut hits the boomerang, the banana follows through and hits Link. I'm not 100% consistent with this, but when I've pulled it off it's been very effective.

So you AGT toward the opponent with both sticks, and the banana impact on his shield keeps him in shieldstun enough to grab him guaranteed?

I'm a tad skeptical that it's guaranteed, but I can imagine it being very effective (like jab grabs).

 

[DeFish]

I'm not totally sure if it's guaranteed, and I think the effectiveness depends on how far away you are when you throw the banana. The nice thing though is that if you can condition your opponent to expect the grab, you can catch the banana as it bounced off shield and rethrow. Even if it isn't guaranteed, that's a lot for an opponent to react to in a short amount of time.

Another use for that technique is SH -> Popgun until they try to run under it, and then AGT the banana. I like this option against people like Fox and Marth that generally deal with projectiles by dodging them.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

A banana toss puts you in shield stun (4.45+staled damage)/2.235. Where SD = 6(being generous here) That means they are in shield stun for ~4.68 additional frames. Enough time for you to land and jc grab? It would have to be perfect spaced and the banana hitting first thrown agt forward, then through sheer force of will, sonic running to where the peanut hits right before you get there for the grab. And staled peanut damage is even less than 6. Its still a good followup though. Even on shield can sometimes agt the same banana on hits if it doesn't go through

 

[D-reckless]

wow thanks everybody, definitely will be trying this. could i use this sam method to get past falcos lasers? If not, what would be a good way to deal with him. And against Falco, FD favors who?

 

[DeFish]

NUMBERS

This guy with the math. It's nice to see the actual value for banana shield stun, so thanks for posting that.

I don't think Diddy has many guaranteed on-shield follow ups, at least not where bananas are concerned. However, Diddy has a million ways to get through an opponent's shield, or force them to make a panic OOS move and then capitalize. I think that Diddy shield pressure boils down to conditioning your opponent to respond to a particular shield poke option, and the punishing them for being foolish enough to think their plan would work.

I was watching one of Seagull Joe's matches from Xanadu a couple weeks back, and one of the things they talked about is how he picks one option and repeats it until his opponent either adapts or loses. If they adapt, he switches to a different option. I've been trying to incorporate more of that into my play, starting with safe and "cheesy" options like peanut spam, and then adjusting my game as my opponent responds. While most characters seem to have a set way that they like to play the neutral game (Falco spams lasers to gain control and safely approach to start comboing, for example), I think that Diddy has the tools to execute at least half a dozen different plans for the neutral game, which makes him very hard to play against.

Vs. Falco, the matchup is entirely about control and momentum. I don't feel like stage matters a ton, so try to pick places you're comfortable with. FD tends to be very one sided either way, since Diddy and Falco combo each other incredibly violently, and without platforms to escape with you're largely at the other player's mercy if they start hitting you.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Falco vs diddy is pretty much a ssb 64 match on FD, each character spawns at death percent. Diddy has up smash followups that lead to fair for an early kill, and falco has pillars of salt combos.falco the best at pressure vs diddy the best OOS character in many cases. Important note, very bad idea to receiver from straight under the stage, that is falco and his dair is a spike

 

[Soft Serve]

@ Searing_Sorrow How are you calculating shield stun?

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/
The discussion came up in similar threads around smash boards, here is one.
Also added b reversal and b cancels to my playstyle now, it adds a whole new dimension to diddy's unpredictability,and lets you side b while running in the opposite direction, or throw a peanut while running away. very useful, its like a wavedash in the air for agt followups and chain setups.

 

[Seagull Joe]

only loses to , , and in my opinion.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

From my experience diddy loses to ,, and samus. In diddy dittos we all die a little inside. On the Samus matchup though, diddy not having very good vertical killing options really becomes exposed. The kill throw on a floaty still wont kill her till past 150. Have to counter stage pick pretty hard for her. Mew two till ledge stall looked at is obvious. From experience I can combo mew two pretty hard, but no way to approach that stall game, and he combos just as hard, with better edgeguard game in this matchup with bair.

 

[ep1c_marf]

only loses to , , and in my opinion.

shiek? please explain

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Was wondering, is there a thread that has information on what characters have chain grabs or really bad tech grabs on diddy. I so far know a few(Marth, diddy), but don't know if some of them are jank and avoidable.(king DDD)

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Let me make sure i got this right seagull.
It was all fun and games for, but everything changed when the fire nation attacked. Only the avatar, master of all 4 elements could save us, but when the world needed him most, he vanished (Project M 4.0).

 

[DeFish]

To weigh in on the Sheik matchup, Diddy's biggest problem here is that he gets comboed to an absurd degree. Needles will go through peanuts and clank with bananas, so Sheik requires more thought to approach than some other matchups. Also on the topic of needles, they're very strong against Diddy's recovery. In fact, I'd say that they're our hardest projectile to recover against, with Mario Fireballs being a close second. All of that being said, we can still combo Sheik pretty well, and grounded bananas can help to limit her approach options, but Sheik combos against Diddy result in death more often than in other MUs.

I don't know if I feel that Sheik is a counter to Diddy, or that the MU is heavily in her favor, but it definitely is one where you cannot relax or let your guard down, because Sheik can punish Diddy harder than a lot of other characters can. Then again, given what @ Praxis has said about Zelda's ability to grab bananas out of up-b, maybe we should be thankful when people play Sheik.

 

[POLOGUN]

These would be:

Mewtwo. Really bad matchup.

Squirte. Side B goes through bananas.

Sonic. Same as Squirte.

Falco. Good neutral game against Diddy.