@ Jiggernaut:
Honestly, I think the match-up revolves around how well Jigglypuff can stay in the air, and how well Diddy Kong can defensively respond with his own aerial attacks and measured rush-down. Diddy users should not crutch on grounded banana peel combos, as they will be infrequent at best. This alone spells out a very even match-up.
I agree with you. Grounded banana peel combos are not the way to go here. If the Diddy player doesn't try to use them, it would be better for him in this matchup. He could concentrate on other things. Directly, I believe that it would be a very even matchup... if Diddy had a decent upB attack.
What I believe gives Jiggs an advantage in this matchup is the fact that any time she forces diddy to use the barrels to recover, she can hit him with nair or dair and he will fall to his death.
Not exactly. Even though her aerial speed is fast enough, it's easy to see coming when Jigglypuff tries to throw a banana. She's not on the ground. She has no mix-ups like dribbling or popgun cancels; all she can really do is throw back a banana, and it isn't that fast. You can punish on reaction with a retreating fair to recatch and hit Jigglypuff.
Plus, she can't apply the pressure like Marth or MK can to keep you away from getting back your banana. Assuming she ends up whiffing a throw, it isn't hard to breach her defenses and get it back. She realistically only has aerials in this sense, and a Monkey Flip Kick will outprioritize everything well-spaced, everything but pound if not.
And if she does make you trip, what will she do? Fair could kill if it's fresh, but Fair is hardly ever fresh, especially in this matchup. Pound? She doesn't have a scary amount of follow-ups to pressure you away from the banana.
You make it sound like every time we get a banana we will throw it right towards you and fly towards you at the same time. We don't have to be that predictable. Obviously she doesn't have as much mixups as Diddy does, but she can still use them.
Your assumption that Fair is never fresh "especially in this matchup" astounds me. Where did you get that information? Why do you think that? A good Jiggs player knows how to not stale fair and use it as a kill move. In fact since she has a way to basically combo into her fair and can't use her other kill moves as well, the Jiggs player should keep fair fresh, especially in this matchup.
And? Wario and MK are both very often in the air, and out matchups with them aren't 70-30.
No. Even without tripping, bananas are still a very viable projectile, even more so because they're completely under the Diddy's control. Things like Falco's lasers, even though they cover ground and short hop height, have slight knockback, and are great camping tools, can only go in a set path. Diddy has full control of his bananas. They're still good tools for throwing at your opponent and setting up aerial traps. When a projectile's coming, 99% of the time the opponent is going to try to airdodge or move away. Diddy can force you to react to this and punish accordingly.
Aerial banana traps exist. Just because they don't make you trip doesn't mean they don't work well.
MK is slow as crap in the air, and Wario doesn't have multiple jumps. Wario has to land a lot, and MK can't make his way through your defences easily.
Bananas are a viable projectile, but it's tripping that makes them amazing. The problem with your statement is that opponents can use bananas too, where falco's lasers cannot be picked up and used against him. Jiggs doesn't have to airdodge or move away when you throw them. She can use
any aerial attack to catch them and then use them against you. Even if she just throws it on the ground, it makes you more predictable and limits your options.
Alright, I can concede that aerial traps exist, though I have no idea what they could be. They wouldn't work well, however, if Jiggs caught the banana with an aerial, and if she knew about aerial traps, could easily use the aerial that would totally neutralize any threat from you by looking at your current position.
Correction, any time Diddy has to use his barrels to recover under the stage, he'll lose a stock.
No, not really. If diddy does an arc from not under the stage, Jiggs can still hit him with a nair or dair as he's recovering.
Nothing really. But this is all assuming that Diddy's directly under or close to under the stage, trying to get to the ledge. If he is, Jigglypuff possesses the tools to easily gimp him.
However, Diddy realistically shouldn't ever be there. When powerful moves hit anyone, you're DIing up and to the corner. When Diddy's fairly above the ledge and offstage, he monkey-flips then so he can't get intercepted if he tries to monkey flip straight to the ledge. If he's offstage and straight across the ledge, he can charge his rocket barrels until he's far from the ledge and down some, then arc his bananas above the ledge. This way, the barrels disappear, and if he gets hit then, he can instantly use his bananas to recover.
It's like with Snake. Yes, if you grab him out of cipher, you force him to C4 himself back up, and characters with spikes or multiple jumps can easily kill him. However, realistically you shouldn't be able to grab him out of cipher, because he's not going to be recovering close to the ledge.
Diddy can be gimped if he's not under the stage, too. It's not edgegrabbing that gets him, it's getting hit by a weak, long lasting attack that will make him lose his barrels. I really have no idea what you're talking about with bananas and recovering. From what I understand, unless you get near the stage it won't work. So if we hit you off stage with your barrels out, you won't be getting near the stage.
Cipher grab is not a good comparison. You can't grab in the air. The only reason cipher grabbing should not happen to Snake is, as you said, because he won't recover that close to the stage. The situations do not compare because
Jiggs can do an aerial off the stage too. If diddy uses the barrels anywhere offstage, Jiggs can very easily hit him. She isn't limited to when diddy recovers from straight up.
It seems that your calling this a 70-30 matchup in your favour is entirely based on the fact that you have a largely aerial based game, ergo you stay in the air a lot, ergo you don't get tripped by bananas, ergo you beat Diddy because he doesn't have bananas anymore.
The two main misconceptions with this are that bananas are unviable if the opponent isn't on the ground, and that Diddy is a horrible character without his bananas. Both are false. Diddy possesses the tools to do very well in this matchup even without bananas.
No, that's not what I'm saying. You're putting words in my mouth here. I am not saying that banana's make the character. It is a great matchup for Jiggs mostly because of Diddy's gimpable recovery. Yes, Jiggs can easily avoid the bananas, and since she's in the air a lot she has to worry about tripping very little compared to every other character in the game. Plus she can use banana
decently well. See my point above about banana>rest. She has almost every defence against bananas (which I will not repeat).
I don't think diddy isn't good without his bananas. Actually if diddy never used bananas in a match against my Jiggs, I would be much more worried. If he decided to fight directly, I think he would have an easier time with things. Maybe.
Even though Jigglypuff possesses the good aerial mobility, that's okay; Jigglypuff's normally the one approaching, anyway. Diddy's actual aerials all beat Jigglypuffs, except for Pound, which is able to outprioritize everything except a Monkey Flip Kick that doesn't hit the Pound hitbox. And besides that, it's not as if you'll be pounding every time we try to do an aerial. Will you be able to do a pound during the ending lag of F-air or B-air? Other tools, such as peanuts, aerial banana traps, shieldgrabs, uptilts out of shield and downtilts, baiting attacks or dodges and punishing them with an aerial (see aerial banana traps)...they all help Diddy greatly in this matchup.
His aerials do not beat all of hers. Even if they did, she could wait until he used one and then use her mobility to go in with one of hers. This paragraph makes no sense to me, because it is mostly based off of the fact that diddy's aerials beat out Jiggs' directly, and I'm pretty sure that isn't true. If they did, we would just have to punish the cooldown of the moves, which is simple for her.
This matchup isn't 70-30 Jigglypuff, or 70-30 Diddy, or 60-40 Jigglypuff. This is very close to even. Who has the advantage, who can say, but there's no overwhelming advantage for anyone.
I seriously think this matchup is in Jiggs' favour. I think being able to gimp Diddy every time he uses the barrels to recover along with neutralizing his banana game is a huge advantage.
Also, I hope this adamant post was not fuelled by the extremely rude post I make on the Jiggs board matchup thread, because I apologized for that.
. We play often, and he can attest that Jiggs puts the fear of god into him, but he's starting to adapt to the match and I can see it being likely 55-45 either way. He always keeps moving, and uses Diddy's high ground speed to attempt to bait a bair and either pivot grab or attempt a smash, and he's getting good at only tossing banana's when I go to replenish my jumps.
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