Diddy Kong can cancel hit-stun similar to Mega Man.

[Aunt Jemima]

Credits to Leffen for this discovery.

It seems that Diddy Kong can cancel hit-stun, just like Mega Man can, except he uses his Peanut Pop Gun.

Thoughts?

 

[Rakurai]

I don't think it would actually be fast enough to allow Diddy to escape from a proper combo.

There's still a noticeable lag between when Diddy takes out the popgun and when he can shield/airdodge.

 

[Senario]

I don't think it would actually be fast enough to allow Diddy to escape from a proper combo.

There's still a noticeable lag between when Diddy takes out the popgun and when he can shield/airdodge.

Any amount of stun the opponent suffers from being hit is significant. That is why Falco lasers and Sheik needles are so effective. Yes, they don't do much except make the opponent stagger a little bit. But this could possibly lead to breaking of combos simply because the peanut interrupts the opponent.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

And here's the second video.

I thought we left this hitstun cancelling garbage back in Brawl. I hope that Sakurai can patch this up sooner or later.

 

[Rakurai]

He really needs to test that against a proper combo from a player before anyone can come to conclusions about how good it is.

I still don't think Diddy would have enough time to escape from something like an up tilt combo from Mario.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'm seeing Diddy doing a fast attack after an attack that does a tiny amount of hitstun, exactly like any other action. How is this "hitstun canceling"?

It's just like Mega Man Rush Coil or Pikachu Thunder; neither is actually "canceling hitstun", they are just doing a frame 1 aerial attack.

 

[Renji64]

RIP combos once again. Alot of combo breakers and a lack of combos.

 

[bc1910]

Very silly stuff, but I'm 99% sure this and MM's rush cancelling are glitches. They'll probably be patched out relatively soon, at least I hope so. No need to panic, really.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This is incredibly weird but have there been tests with it beyond the remote sensor bomb or is it purely that? Can we confirm that this works during actual combos and not just the remote sensor bomb at 0%?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

RIP combos once again. Alot of combo breakers and a lack of combos.

The game hasn't even been out a month.

Combos take time to find.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I just don't get it. Is this a bug, is this intentional? Is this going to be patched? The questions ebb away at me. I know they fixed the Peach bug already so....

 

[Senario]

I'm seeing Diddy doing a fast attack after an attack that does a tiny amount of hitstun, exactly like any other action. How is this "hitstun canceling"?

It's just like Mega Man Rush Coil or Pikachu Thunder; neither is actually "canceling hitstun", they are just doing a frame 1 aerial attack.

Because in other smash games you cannot cancel weak hitstun. This is important because weak hitstun factors into multiple hit moves and a lot of tilts. The hitstun should mean you can only VI/DI to influence where you go but in this case he is acting out of hitstun which is problematic.

Even acting out of tumble is inhibiting to the combo game because it decreases the window you can feasibly follow up on. That is why is is a little harder to combo Melee Samus because she can Nair out of tumble.

 

[Untouch]

wasn't the megaman thing already fixed

 

[TTTTTsd]

Rush cancelling? No, as of Patch 1.02, it's still there. Which is why now that this is here I'm a bit confused. Why would something like this not be shared among the cast if this was the desired goal? This is just outright weird. We've got connections to people in NoA through our Melee heads, can someone send a video of this bug to them and maybe they can patch it?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's hard to imagine that being a bug since this move's properties are really not that special; certain special moves may have a flag that lets them cancel out of very particular hitstun states (which means the Rush Coil thing may not be a bug either). Note that hitstun appears to be complex, and it's not even just "tumble" vs "no tumble" since the Rush Coil cancel doesn't seem to let you out of multi-hit moves or jab combos; the mechanic seems more nuanced than that and seems like it only applies to a very small club of characters.

As of now, this changes nothing. This cancel is in no way, shape, or form useful for Diddy Kong since the commitment of this move before it even hits is probably longer than any hitstun it might cancel. If this is intentional design which is seeming likely, it's a bit strange that this move would be such a benefactor, but this just re-enforces the need to explore these mechanics in great depth when the full game comes out here.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I tweeted this out to like two people that I know do stuff for Nintendo. IDEALLY this will get patched, I don't even know tho.

The way I see it, if this is as bad as it is, this could be theoretically BANNED(I know that sounds weird but MVC3 had a game breaking TAC(Team Aerial Combo) bug they had to ban. Wouldn't be the first time a glitch was banned from competitive use...

 

[Paul the Octopus]

I tweeted this out to like two people that I know do stuff for Nintendo. IDEALLY this will get patched, I don't even know tho.

The way I see it, if this is as bad as it is, this could be theoretically BANNED(I know that sounds weird but MVC3 had a game breaking TAC(Team Aerial Combo) bug they had to ban. Wouldn't be the first time a glitch was banned from competitive use...

What are you talking about?

TAC infinites are not banned. They are used all the time in tournament matches and have a profound impact on the UMVC3 meta.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What are you talking about?

TAC infinites are not banned. They are used all the time in tournament matches and have a profound impact on the UMVC3 meta.

Maybe I was thinking of a different glitch? I'm not INCREDIBLY familiar, but I know there was one glitch that essentially locked a player or caused some sort of issue...lemme look it up...AH! The snapback glitch! There we are. My apology, I should really double-check my stuff. Guess I was in too big a rush.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

Maybe I was thinking of a different glitch? I'm not INCREDIBLY familiar, but I know there was one glitch that essentially locked a player or caused some sort of issue...lemme look it up...AH! The snapback glitch! There we are. My apology, I should really double-check my stuff. Guess I was in too big a rush.

No worries. Deciding to ban a mechanic is always a tradeoff between (1) the inconvenience of having to closely monitor/look out for illegal tactics and (2) avoiding game-breaking mechanics.

In this case, the mechanic is pretty annoying but not game-breaking (opponent can still win), so I'd be surprised if it was banned - not enough benefit to make up for the inconvenience of monitoring so closely for it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This ban would be insane and unenforcable. Can you imagine being a TO called over to clarify if Rush Coil was used more quickly than your rules ostensibly allow? It's not even clear these mechanics make the game worse; Mega Man having extreme survival ability seems like a character defining attribute, and this cancel doesn't seem likely to help Diddy Kong in any meaningful way due to the long, slow animation on the move in question. Even if these mechanics were just all bad though, we just have to accept them; it's too basic of an action to even consider banning.

 

[RanserSSF4]

I already posted a thread like this on Diddy Kong forums. While I do think this will be broken for Diddy only, I DO think it will be punishable just like Mega Man's combo breaker. The problems with Diddy's "glitch" at the moment are:

1. the peanut gun does have a bit of landing lag
2. Even if you airdodge, the opponent can punish/predict that since airdodges are nerfed in this game.

 

[Roxas215]

I tweeted this out to like two people that I know do stuff for Nintendo. IDEALLY this will get patched, I don't even know tho.

The way I see it, if this is as bad as it is, this could be theoretically BANNED(I know that sounds weird but MVC3 had a game breaking TAC(Team Aerial Combo) bug they had to ban. Wouldn't be the first time a glitch was banned from competitive use...

What???? There is nothing banned in MVC3. TACs are used almost in EVERY match.

The snapback glitch is now the "Kubuto" Escape which is useable.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm sorry man it's been a LONG time and I was looking to draw comparisons. Closest thing I thought of was stuff like that! (I already got corrected but if people are gonna jump on my skin for it I'll just outright remove it if you want lol)

In reality though, looking back at this one day later, I don't know how much this will ACTUALLY DO for Diddy. I mean sure it's a good option but is Side-B invulnerable even? The most it leads to is an airdodge into the ground with lag, a shield(if the hitstun is that low to begin with) or Side-B which might not be good to do during a combo for obvious reasons of getting hit.

Yeah this is less worrying the more I calm down and look at it.

 

[響「Hibiki」]

Interesting find, but I am not sure how this this is useful in any way. Doesn't the gun have huge amounts of startup? Seems pretty punishable, especially when up against characters that can cover ground quickly.

 

[Player-1]

Oh no now you'll have to read whether Diddy will air dodge or not to follow up on...

lmao at this thread. This is not some game breaking glitch that will let diddy rise to the top. This seems to only work for moves that have low hitstun meaning mostly low percent combos. And then what? Diddy air dodges to get out of the combo? In Brawl, reading air dodges when trying to follow up against an opponent is basic and is often one of the worst options to do because of how common and predictable it is. In Brawl you had to actually frame trap your opponent's air dodge, in this game the game does it for you because of how horrendous the landing lag is after an air dodge. And it's way too early about talking about "patching stuff" out of the game. If Nintendo wants to patch it out just because it's a glitch then that's fine, patching glitches is normal. But whining to Nintendo because you think this is over powered or something and want it patched out is a scrub mentality, the metagame advances so you advance with it or get stuck going 0-2 in bracket. I hear people saying Megaman is one of the worst chars in the game but you want Rush Cancelling gone? LOL. Oh no only in certain situations you can't have your precious combos whatever will you do? In melee more than half the time those standard combos a character had wouldn't work on say jigglypuff and didn't hear people whining that jigglypuff was too broken. Why? Because jigglypuff being floaty was part of her character. ATs like this become part of the character too when meta game advances so whining to take it out when it was JUST discovered 2 weeks into the Japanese release (not even American or world wide) is inhibiting the meta game growth. If we find out after a while of actually playing this game that diddy or mega man is in fact like best char in the game and/or hard countering half the cast then sure then you can actually complain (if you want it patched simply for the fact that you think this is a glitch and glitches need to go then that's a completely different valid argument, but keep in mind you wouldn't have a lot of what makes melee melee or a lot of other competitve games). People said the same thing about the Zss-robin infinite, and while I agree that infinites are generally bad for the game what if robin becomes the MK of the game and zss is the only counter? That sounds good to me.

What I find more broken about this is that you can probably use it to avoid kill moves or other similar moves that link a weak hit into a strong hit ( I was able to rush cancel out of villager's utilt before the 2nd hit connected which would have killed me). And also side-b out of popgun cancel ( if that's what it is, leffen didn't explain it very well) seems really interesting to me for other applications other than a combo breaker.

 

[Luigi player]

Pretty nice that Diddy has something like that. Not that it will be that useful though, it's too slow...

 

[Emblem Lord]

The DHC glitch in MvC3 got patched out. It was insanely broken also my entire team was based around it. Storm on point, Wesker as middle, Dante as anchor. Team was so stupid and damage was way too high thanks to DHC. Anyways, peanut gun isnt that great of a move,but maybe the glitch is improved if Diddy uses a custom peanut gun special? Or maybe he cant even do it unless its default peanut gun?

So much testing to do.

 

[[TSON]]

I'm seeing Diddy doing a fast attack after an attack that does a tiny amount of hitstun, exactly like any other action. How is this "hitstun canceling"?

It's just like Mega Man Rush Coil or Pikachu Thunder; neither is actually "canceling hitstun", they are just doing a frame 1 aerial attack.

Rush cancelling and popgun cancelling both literally cancel being hurt into the respective attacks. They are not doing so after hitstun normally ends - they're doing it as soon as frame 1. Rewatch the videos, it's very apparent in the first video when leffen is trying to jump/attack and can't do so for like 40 frames, but then cancels into popgun almost immediately. Rush cancelling is even more obvious because you can see a momentum shift.

The "Thunder cancel" is not really a cancel, though, it's just an attack that calls the thunder projectile on frame 1 so even if you hit him the projectile will still come down.

It's hard to imagine that being a bug since this move's properties are really not that special; certain special moves may have a flag that lets them cancel out of very particular hitstun states (which means the Rush Coil thing may not be a bug either). Note that hitstun appears to be complex, and it's not even just "tumble" vs "no tumble" since the Rush Coil cancel doesn't seem to let you out of multi-hit moves or jab combos; the mechanic seems more nuanced than that and seems like it only applies to a very small club of characters.

As of now, this changes nothing. This cancel is in no way, shape, or form useful for Diddy Kong since the commitment of this move before it even hits is probably longer than any hitstun it might cancel. If this is intentional design which is seeming likely, it's a bit strange that this move would be such a benefactor, but this just re-enforces the need to explore these mechanics in great depth when the full game comes out here.

If Diddy is holding a banana as seen in the second video, the popgun can be canceled into an airdodge and thus cancelled into a banana throw. THAT is a little dumb.
And rush cancelling/popgun cancelling will work on multihit attacks as long as you're not on the ground when you try to cancel. It only works if MM/Diddy are in the air at the time. It is all non-tumble KB while in the air.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Perhaps this is the secret reason as to why Diddy only gets one banana here.

Still, I don't see this being especially terrible. The example above about Melee Jigglypuff did remind me of that nightmare of a thing
(MUs too hardt)

 

[Luigi player]

Megaman and Diddy Kong aren't the only ones that can cancel weak hitstun with B moves.

So far I've found ouf that Greninja can do it with sideB and I think Lucario can use upB. Lucarios upB obviously wouldn't be too great since it has a lot of startuplag at the beginning, though.

Greninjas sideB also has some startup it seems. If you try to sideB during multijabs you'll see a lot of smokeclouds appearing, but you'd only hit your opponent if he does the finisher (since then there's enough time between the hits for sideB to work).

You can also use these moves out of Ganondorfs grounded sideB. It's pretty funny.

 

[Rakurai]

You can also use these moves out of Ganondorfs grounded sideB. It's pretty funny.

Do you mean that if you mash on said moves as you're being dropped by his side B, you won't actually hit the ground and will just do the move in question instead?

 

[Luigi player]

Do you mean that if you mash on said moves as you're being dropped by his side B, you won't actually hit the ground and will just do the move in question instead?

didnt try it with all of them but greninja can cancel the fall and hit ganon with sideB instead yeah

 

[Rakurai]

didnt try it with all of them but greninja can cancel the fall and hit ganon with sideB insteah yeah

Lol.

And here I thought it was bad enough that they made the Flame Choke techable in Smash 4...