Diddy Kong 2v2 viability, strategy, and partner discussion

[ScouT]

Been looking and couldnt find a place where this has all been discussed under a single thread. We all know 2v2 is a difficult area in general and an even more difficult area as a diddy main if your partner doesnt have a good handle on how to use and avoid your bananas. I have been playing with a friend of mine recently and we have found a pretty good balance in our team comp of Peach or Ness/Diddy.

I know most of diddy's 2v2 vids on youtube are Diddy/MK or Diddy/DDD but lets try and get a discussion going for team strategies using other characters. I would like to propose this thread as a grounds for people to discuss what character their partner is and what the strengths and weaknesses are of that composition.

One thing that i think should be made the most aware of diddy in 2s is that you NEED A PARTNER THAT IS ABOVE AVERAGE IN THE AIR. Just a few that i can list off the top of my head are DDD/MK/Peach/Zamus.

Let us start with my team of Peach or Ness/Diddy. Seeing as both Ness and Peach are more viable in the air and Diddy is far more viable on the ground, i have found that the best thing for me to do is banana lock my opponent into an upthrow which puts my enemy in my partners playing grounds where further punishment can ensue. my partner is very good about keeping an eye out for what i am doing so when he plays as peach he is keeping tabs on my target and starts floating above me waiting to Fair after my Upthrow. As ness he more likely does Bair. But what we have found as the best combo with Ness is when i get them over the edge for him and he spikes them.

let the discussion begin?

Useful Videos:

(Gnes' Diddy)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEfJqrPGSf0 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks7Y6...eature=related

 

[napZzz]

I was just talking about this with someone earlier and what it seems like is that diddy is good when you have an opponent who can perform well in the air or can aid you and camp but not get ****ed too badly by bananas. DDD can do both of those, but there are better options I see.

For example, I've never actually seen anyone try this but a wario/diddy team. Its just theory, but I can imagine it being VERY effective due to warios ******** aerial mobility and even his ability to use items fairly well and he also compensates for diddys bad killing abilities with **** like this over powered fsmash and waft to aid diddys great damage racking game and tank long.

MK is an obvious partner I guess for the same reasons but I dont think he's as good as someone like wario.

I was trying to think if there was a character who coul duse banans to their advantage and make ag odod team mate for him, someone out of the oridinary that you dont really see that often. Zss is the first one I thought of because of her good glide toss and a trip from a glide toss like hers leads to plenty of options but I dont know how well that could play out outside of her using bananas well

 

[Lazee]

Wario/diddy is actually amazing,me and dao both play diddy and we teamed for a tournament and I switch to wario,we ended up getting 3rd losing to only dehf/camaman and mikehaze/bigfoot. Wario is amazing at following up nearly anything from diddy and can kill around 60-70 percent by tripping into half wafts and forward smash. He also stays in the air majority of the time racking up damage.the wario player should sh dair double jump dair around the stage poking and air camping while diddy punishes on the ground with bananas. I reccomend any good diddy and wario players to team up and watch the ****

 

[fource]

There's not much to say really. Diddy should rack up damage, run, stock tank, and that's about it.

Best partners (unarguably) are Meta Knight, Snake, G&W, and Wario. Possibly D3.

 

[Gnes]

Diddy's best teammate is meta(bet u didnt see that coming). IMO diddys partner compatibality goes like the tier list, at least for top tier. (not including falco though ADHD might say differently).

Personally ive had some success with other chrs. such as GAW, ZSS, Peach, and others how meta just feels like its so much easier. He can save u from being gimped, has naner applications, all of his moves (especially tornado) lead into combos, plus if all else fails he can just plank.

Now maybe im wrong about wario being less compatible with diddy than snake, however Fatal and ADHD have done generally well, and me and Razer when we team are amazing. I have teamed with a awesome wario before, however against certain matchups/styles of play i have my doubts.

 

[ADHD]

I suck in doubles and at this point I'm just going game & watch in it. I seriously cannot take losing momentum for no reason because he's so geared with focus in 1v1.

Edit: I can't say that for gnes or AZ, they seem to make him really good. I sure as hell can't, I need a mk to win because they don't fail when it comes to playing other good mks. What happens when I team with another char besides mk (all the time) is that another metaknight will just send him up in the air, and I can't save him. At least meta can handle his own juggle game.

 

[ScouT]

lets not make this about tiers, i feel that 2v2 with team attack on makes lower tier characters far mor viable.

i disagree with snake being a good partner, too much ground play by 2 characters and you will end up hurting your teammate a lot.

I think that the one aspect of a partner that you need to look for is that characters ability to finish from the air. and that doesnt leave a lot of characters (well a lot can finish but some are far, far better at it than others).

Wario is an OBVIOUS good partner for his insanely strong aerials. Ness's DAir fits real will into banana lock -> grab releases from diddy at the edge (and also if you have yourself an exceptional ness partner like i do, he can aim an up-B to just above me for when i throw my target up). Peach's Fair does really well out of banana locks into UThrows/DA -> UTilt/ DA-> USmash and she is also pretty good with items. MK for god knows how many reasons. ZSS is a decent partner but a lot of her attacks are really useful from air AGAINST the ground which causes some team attack sometimes.

This isnt just about deciding a good character to team with, i feel that a lot of you are good enough with diddy to realize where the pieces fit with other characters. I feel that discussing certain tactics that work really well with a certain composition is a vital topic for discussion.

 

[fource]

lets not make this about tiers, i feel that 2v2 with team attack on makes lower tier characters far mor viable.

i disagree with snake being a good partner, too much ground play by 2 characters and you will end up hurting your teammate a lot.

I think that the one aspect of a partner that you need to look for is that characters ability to finish from the air. and that doesnt leave a lot of characters (well a lot can finish but some are far, far better at it than others).

Wario is an OBVIOUS good partner for his insanely strong aerials. Ness's DAir fits real will into banana lock -> grab releases from diddy at the edge (and also if you have yourself an exceptional ness partner like i do, he can aim an up-B to just above me for when i throw my target up). Peach's Fair does really well out of banana locks into UThrows/DA -> UTilt/ DA-> USmash and she is also pretty good with items. MK for god knows how many reasons. ZSS is a decent partner but a lot of her attacks are really useful from air AGAINST the ground which causes some team attack sometimes.

This isnt just about deciding a good character to team with, i feel that a lot of you are good enough with diddy to realize where the pieces fit with other characters. I feel that discussing certain tactics that work really well with a certain composition is a vital topic for discussion.

Lol. Sorry dude, but I think you got this way out of whack. Snake is UNARGUABLY one of Diddy's best partners. Even if it doesn't sound good theoretically, it's been amazing in practice.

ADHD/Fatal. Gnes/Razer. Advent/(Snake main I can't remember but they took 2nd)

And I'll agree that low tiers do better in doubles, but that does not mean they do as good as top tiers still. Also, doubles is not about what you can do with the 2vs.1. Doubles is about being a good enough team to get to the 2vs.1.


http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8391701&postcount=10

Simple answer: Getting rid of useless threads helps us, as a board, move toward advancing are meta game at a faster rate.

 

[ScouT]

Your not understanding what I'm saying... 2v1s can be fit in through out the entire 2v2... If your partner can break away for a second and fit in something on your target, you can create devastating combos. I have personally never played with a snake parter so maybe I was ou of line in that regard but I'm not saying that this is about 2v1. 2v2 is organized chaos and if you and your partner can go in knowing a few tricks that your composition allows, it will give you an advantage over the other team is who is essentially trying to make it 2 seperate 1v1s. That is the point of this thread.

 

[rvkevin]

I usually team with a Rob/Wolf player and do fine...until we face a MK on a team...MKs so dominate in teams that you need someone that can handle themselves for a little bit if you do get separated...Ideally, your partner will be MK to neutralize the other one, but some characters like Snake, Wario, and DDD may substitute.

Btw, I would be careful saying Diddy and Snake is a powerhouse team with examples like Gnes/Razer; they always place first and second in their region so of course they're going to do good as a team...And ADHD/Fatal lost to MK/Anther and doubles MKs at S.N.E.S., though they did beat some MK teams at Apex.

IMO, MK is so dominant in doubles that I would only be comfortable with a MK (maybe Snake) partner when going up against one...Who says low/middle tiers are more viable in doubles? MK still makes them unviable.

 

[Gnes]

Firstly Kevin, i agree with what u said. Part of me and Razers success is just from base skill level as players, but realize that at one tourney, we took Dojo/Zac to last game set 2, the same team who got 3rd at genesis. Realize this was a team with meta/GAW, pretty much snake's worst nightmare.

Secondly, Scout i understand what ur trying to get across, and yes 2v1 interceptions during matches are important, but those aren't really character specific, its just the basics of team play. For instance talked u about ness's dair, how about a diddy sideB>snake nair>diddy dair>snake jab reset...fsmash.

The point im trying to get across is that u need to look at what each chr. brings to the table and how they compliment each other. Snake in teams is much more tilt spammy, more aerials, less nades, C4, and his goal is mainly to get the kill. Without all his items scattered across the stage, hes more inclined to use naners better(snakes naner applications are top notch). Everyone likes to say diddy "cant team well with _____ chr. because they both need the ground." In this i realize that most people dont understand how diddy NEEDS to be played in teams. So perhaps that will be the best place to move our discussion to, instead of our current topic of partner selection.

 

[fource]

What Gnes said. All of it.

I'm not trying to start arguments here. So can we try to make this productive opposed to turning on each other?

Back on the 2vs.1 topic. This in my opinion is based upon the person you team with, not the character. If you team with someone who plays doubles ridiculously, then interceptions will happen all day (cough cough UTD cough cough). Every character has some sort of reaction, it's just how the person chooses to react that dictates the flow of the match. I play with Karma/Ratman all the time, they understand how doubles works. Their DThrow to FSmash gets so ridiculous. If you have no fluidity in your team, you're screwed. It's kind of like facing G&W/Zamus if you guys get me.

Gnes basically summarized why Snake is so good to team with. I actually love items. Love them. Me and Nate run double Diddy a lot and we get to the point where we have to ask each other for more nannerz because 3 just isn't enough =). With that being said, I love instant throwing grenades that Snake players simply toss in the air, it's so good since people don't focus on little balls when doubles is so hectic. :D


Partner Selection: You need to play with someone who understands how you play. The way I like to word it is, your partner has to know what you'll do with your banana before it leaves your hands. Without this, your partner will be tripping all game and it's just not pretty. This may also lead to you having to limit yourself to one banana for their sake which should never be the case.

Gnes and Razer know each other in and out I think and that only helps there team.​

To me, this quality is the most crucial to have for Diddy's partner.

 

[rvkevin]

GnW is Snake's worst nightmare? I thought Diddy and Snake hard countered GnW...you just need to watch out for your partner for early grab release to Usmash kills...

I have had problems against double MK's and to a smaller extent MK teams...When I'm being pressured by Dairs and Tornado, I have trouble aiding my partner. Any advice? The problem with Diddy and ___ is when Diddy is being pressured, he can't really help out his partner immediately and ___ needs to be able to stand alone against MK so I wouldn't advise partnering with someone that gets hard countered by MK. Unless, is there a way for Diddy to be played in teams to avoid this? I understand creating 2v1 situations are important, but its almost impossible to do against double MKs, and even if you do, and its not going to be that much more beneficial having another person underneath a Dairing MK.

 

[fource]

GnW is Snake's worst nightmare? I thought Diddy and Snake hard countered GnW...

G&W has like a 70/30 against Snake on doubles. Character match ups in singles completely change in doubles.

I have had problems against double MK's and to a smaller extent MK teams...When I'm being pressured by Dairs and Tornado, I have trouble aiding my partner. Any advice? The problem with Diddy and ___ is when Diddy is being pressured, he can't really help out his partner immediately and ___ needs to be able to stand alone against MK so a partner that gets hard countered by MK wouldn't be advisable. Unless, is there a way for Diddy to be played in teams to avoid this?

Run. Whenever you're being pressured, go for the other MK since your partner should be distracting him.

 

[Gnes]

G&W has like a 70/30 against Snake on doubles. Character match ups in singles completely change in doubles.

Exactly, but realize Diddy has like a 65-35 on GAW in doubles, 50-50 against meta, 55-45 snake, and 35-65 against wario(unfortunately, wario is our greatest threat) but thats not why i posted lol.

At top levels of play, diddy is only effective as a support chr. U must constantly keep track of everything happening on the battlefield, assisting your partner with naners, etc., but at the same time being a stock tank. I'm sure everyone knows Santi, or at least have heard of him. He's pretty much retired now but at the time of his prime, his playstyle in teams is exactly the most effective style for diddy in teams. To be quite frank, he never got hit. The area he created with his projectiles made him impervious in most situations, even in regards to metaknight. That's exactly the way diddy should be played in doubles.

Diddy is near unapproachable in doubles, considering the general lack of space available. Spacing is not near as tight as in singles, and this only proves advantageous for us. In many instances in my team matches, the opposing team just literally doesn't attempt to attack me.

Now i remember ADHD randomly stating one day in the houston thread that meta should be banned in doubles because sometimes he just cant be touched when inside his "area." This is exactly the area i mean. Almost every instance in doubles for diddy, if u are being attack, u can punish safely.

So for the purpose of discussion, ill post a few old team vids, maybe this will explain what I mean in a more visual way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEfJqrPGSf0 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks7Y6-7pi4k&feature=related

 

[PhantomX]

Wario and Diddy, though a great team, are susceptible to camping strategies from double MK. Against any other team they do great, but double MK does not bode well for them, b/c they can both get gimped if they attempt to help their partner out, they can both be zoned very well if the MKs cover/compliment each other well, and Wario/Diddy both need to space well to take MK on, which is difficult if there's two of them.

 

[ScouT]

Exactly, but realize Diddy has like a 65-35 on GAW in doubles, 50-50 against meta, 55-45 snake, and 35-65 against wario(unfortunately, wario is our greatest threat) but thats not why i posted lol.

At top levels of play, diddy is only effective as a support chr. U must constantly keep track of everything happening on the battlefield, assisting your partner with naners, etc., but at the same time being a stock tank. I'm sure everyone knows Santi, or at least have heard of him. He's pretty much retired now but at the time of his prime, his playstyle in teams is exactly the most effective style for diddy in teams. To be quite frank, he never got hit. The area he created with his projectiles made him impervious in most situations, even in regards to metaknight. That's exactly the way diddy should be played in doubles.

Diddy is near unapproachable in doubles, considering the general lack of space available. Spacing is not near as tight as in singles, and this only proves advantageous for us. In many instances in my team matches, the opposing team just literally doesn't attempt to attack me.

Now i remember ADHD randomly stating one day in the houston thread that meta should be banned in doubles because sometimes he just cant be touched when inside his "area." This is exactly the area i mean. Almost every instance in doubles for diddy, if u are being attack, u can punish safely.

So for the purpose of discussion, ill post a few old team vids, maybe this will explain what I mean in a more visual way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEfJqrPGSf0 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks7Y6-7pi4k&feature=related

please continue, your doing what im trying to do but im not wording it quite like you are i guess because people werent catching on to what i was trying to do.

Diddy is a phenomenal support character in 2s, as you stated, and those videos are perfect examples. You played back and everytime your partner was in trouble, you were there with a banana to interrupt the momentum (very nice job on that btw). But just a tid bit of what i was trying to say is stuff like at 0:13 in the 2nd video when you threw into a Fair and at the end when you Faired out his DThrow. I guess what i was trying to say earlier is that is is very beneficial to learn your teammates move set and dynamics so that you can react to eachothers moves and benefit off the situation that are created through out the match. Be on your toes but also realize your place as a diddy in 2s.

Diddy has very predictable combo's and make sure your teammate knows some of the more common ones and where it forces your enemy so that he can react accordingly.

And to PhantomX:

Do you have a video that we can all see as an example to this?

 

[FelixTrix]

I honestly don't think mk is THAT good to be banned in singles as of yet, but double MK in doubles is really ********.

I really like teaming with falco with diddy, because falco is good at distracting one person with either a chaingrab or close up jab pressure. It then becomes a 1v1 for diddy, which isn't all that hard, and once you get the person you are fighting off stage, you go and help your partner.

http://allisbrawl.com/video/video.aspx?id=21114

This is me and Nerd about a month ago at NWM. We got 2nd.

 

[PhantomX]

Double MK loses to MK/GW and MK/Wario, though.

 

[Dekar173]

Double MK loses to MK/GW and MK/Wario, though.

Theorycraft! I'd like to see M2K + Tyrant v Dojo + UTD so we could verify/deny this claim ;O

It could be M2K + Dojo v Tyrant + Fiction for MK/Wario :D

 

[istudying]

This is the thread that we need.

 

[ScouT]

none of those comps even have a diddy in them. lets get back on topic.

If you did not have an MK on your team and you were versing an MK team, what character would you prefer to have as a partner and what specific strategies would you go about using??

Edit: Oh and as more and more useful discussion, facts, and hints come about in this discussion, i will be updating the top post for all to see.

 

[Deez.]

Wow I really need to read the Diddy boards more often.. I completely agree with what all you guys are saying. I think Snake,Wario,Mk, and DDD are all good candidates for Diddys best partner..

but you guys failed to mention one person.. I think myself Diddy and TL would be a team that is very effective. for one they're both use to having items in their hand non stop knowing how to catch on command and throwing it back at the opponent. and also TL is constantly in the air doing ridicules Ariel moves and comboing off there partner attacks. And not to mention TL has a pretty good glide toss of which im not mistaken.. So i can see Diddy and Toon Link being a pretty tough team to beat. as for them going up against double MK it'll be just as hard for them as fighting a Snake and diddy for the fact TL has his own bombs that blow up and other tactics to keep mk in a box or making a wall for them not to approach.

And if the diddy and TL player both know how to control their space and maintain there momentum I really don't see them losing to a double mk team. because if im not mistaken the bombs TL has could interrupt the nado. but thats just my two sense. please comment if you have any ideas on this being a good team or not...

 

[rvkevin]

And if the diddy and TL player both know how to control their space and maintain there momentum I really don't see them losing to a double mk team. because if im not mistaken the bombs TL has could interrupt the nado. but thats just my two sense. please comment if you have any ideas on this being a good team or not...

I can see this working on Final Destination (Which will probably be banned)...On smaller stages, its going to be harder to control the space and it will be easier to lose and harder regain momentum...Also, expect to have a hard time on their counter pick. Plus it would take a lot of experience for the teamwork to develop (Transferring items and things of that nature). Besides MK, Marth may be of concern...

 

[Gnes]

Me and Jerm have teamed many times...The hardest team for us was snake/wario (Razer/DMG). The things is, diddy tink have trouble killing and they both die relatively early. Also, both chrs. roles in teams are basically identical, which doesnt help at all. Double mk ***** Diddy Tink, believe me. First of all, mk tink is like 65-35 mks favor(dojo 2 stocks every tink he plays, including jash), and teams doesnt change much considering now tink has even less room work with. Once mk gets him off stage its pretty much over(and u cant save him ).

Toon link is a okay partner, but not my choice regularly. I much prefer partners who can kill easily since im primarily the stock tank of all my teams.


Also Deez, toon link has no glide toss, only jump cancels.

 

[Deez.]

Me and Jerm have teamed many times...The hardest team for us was snake/wario (Razer/DMG). The things is, diddy tink have trouble killing and they both die relatively early. Also, both chrs. roles in teams are basically identical, which doesnt help at all. Double mk ***** Diddy Tink, believe me. First of all, mk tink is like 65-35 mks favor(dojo 2 stocks every tink he plays, including jash), and teams doesnt change much considering now tink has even less room work with. Once mk gets him off stage its pretty much over(and u cant save him ).

Toon link is a okay partner, but not my choice regularly. I much prefer partners who can kill easily since im primarily the stock tank of all my teams.


Also Deez, toon link has no glide toss, only jump cancels.

Makes sense thanks Gnes.

 

[Lazee]

What gnes said,also I have some super flashy tricksies u can do with ddd like a couple infinite setups,
Snake has banana trip into uptilt,there's also bananalock into upb offstage for metaknight,
Wario has banana into waft,fsmash.
I think who's best depends on playstyle.
I play offstage a lot as diddy and find wario,mk,and dedede my top 3 fav doubles partners for sure.because they all can help recover from gimps.I tend to play damage racker/tank/gimper in doubles and have my partner be the primary killer

 

[ScouT]

Well on Nov. 7th i will be teaming with a peach partner, should be some fairly interesting videos from that. Shes fairly difficult to kill and can help me get out of some sticky situations. and because of her good recovery and stall time over the edge, it gives me enough time to get over there and help her out if shes getting edge hogged or harrassed. however, I am not sure how the 2 of us will be able to handle MK teams so we're working on some combos and what not.

 

[AlphaZealot]

What Gnes said. Me/Q gave up on Diddy/TL. Heck, at WaBI we got 3rd in teams with Diddy/TL. Then at WaBIII with basically the same exact competition we got 1st with Diddy/MK.

Diddy/TL just has to many weaknesses (put a luigi on a team, your done, or a wario, or double MK, or anything that doesn't die until 170).

 

[Dojo]

Theorycraft! I'd like to see M2K + Tyrant v Dojo + UTD so we could verify/deny this claim ;O

You may be seeing this in about 9 days. Keep your eyes open.

 

[Gnes]

WTF...why are u here? U dont play diddy...****ing poser.

 

[Lazee]

gtfo! you disgrace diddy kong by making him a secondary dojo =P

 

[Dojo]

WTF...why are u here? U dont play diddy...****ing poser.

Dang you even called me your Diddy brother after beating Mike... I'm hurt. :\

*leaves*

 

[Lazee]

^lmao

10char

 

[Gnes]

Dang you even called me your Diddy brother after beating Mike... I'm hurt. :\

*leaves*

Then u ***** me with mk 2-0 in OK.



Hey AZ. Who do u team with now? Is it still Judge/or some other lucky *******.

edit:Just got a random text from razer saying adhd copied my peanut gun wavebounce...****ing posers everywhere.(j/k dojo, ur diddys legit, patiently legit lol)

 

[FelixTrix]

Peanut gun wavebounce? that **** is oldd. hahaha

 

[UltimateRazer]

Me and Gnes ****. :] Gnes is really good in teams. Our 0 to deaths. Done.

Secrets sealed.

 

[Deez.]

Isn't Peanut Gun Wave Bouncing the same as B reversal?

 

[ScouT]

Lucas' c-stick propulsion is wavebouncing. B reversal over the edge just moves you closer a tiny bit, nothing really game breaking

 

[AlphaZealot]

Hey AZ. Who do u team with now? Is it still Judge/or some other lucky *******.

Who I've teamed with:

2/11 @Test Your Might VII 9-12-09 w/Kel
2/15 @God Kais Present: Brawl Bootcamp Lvl. 1 9-5-09 w/Overswarm
2/12 @Summer Smash 2 8-22-09 w/Korn
3/12 @C3 August Assault 8-15-09 w/Junebug
7/53 @EVO 2k9 7-19-09 w/Judge
17/108 @DBR Presents: Genesis 7-12-09 w/Judge
3/13 @Chudats Dojo 6-27-09 w/Plank
1/31 @Midwest Circuit Championship 6-20-09 w/Judge
1/08 @WAB IV 6-13-09 w/Quivo
1/09 @TYM V 5-30-09 w/Nope
1/21 @MWCE #3 The Competition 5-23-09 w/Judge
1/12 @Wings and Brew III 5-16-09 w/Overswarm
5/12 @Hams Off my Bread 5-9-09 w/Zach
1/08 @Wings and Brew II 5-2-09 w/Overswarm

So...Umm...no one consistently right now. Judge and I have only been to one tournament together since EVO and we didn't team cause he didn't know he was going till last minute. So I would say Judge and I will team whenever we both know we are going to a tournament, but right now there aren't any circuit events so its like completely random who shows and who I team with. This weekend I'll be trying my luck with Lain. I think Judge/me are basically unstoppable vs any team in the MW except if Anther teams with M2K or M2K teams with Ally. Or some combination of those 3 players teams.