Did we have an official pac-man dream buffs for future patches?

[Furret24]

Yes I have: Yoshi's bair. Diddy Kong's up-tilt. Sheik's f-smash. Sonic's f-throw. Luma's up-tilt. Roy's dash attack.

Yeah, of course PAC-MAN has KO options, but he needs to land them reliably. All can be lacking in some way. Some aren't strong enough. Some are situational-heavy. Others are just plain bad... His d-smash is too weak, nair isn't really a killing move, unless it's rage and near a blast zone. I'm pretty surprised you mentioned up-air. What makes you think it is a KO move? In order for it too kill, the opponent needs to be damaged over 150% and be hit way up. Though even if the back hit of up-air is surprisingly strong, you have to position yourself to hit with it. B-throw is only a killing move if PAC-MAN is at rage and near the ledge. It's too situational. And sometimes, when you finally land a KO option, it will not score the KO.

I am not deeply into G&W and DHD, so I can't really compare to them. Of course they struggle with maybe similar things PAC-MAN does, but at least they have a tool in grab in a heavily defensive game, with shields being way too overpowered. PAC-MAN hates rage (I know G&W does too), and that is why I think PAC-MAN loses to Bowser, for example. His tools is not enough to deal with rage, and he can't abuse it either. This even further his KO problems. PAC-MAN is weak, and his strongest moves/options are too situational as well. His Bonus Fruit are legit, but as I have said, they can used against him. And anyone who knows the PAC-MAN matchup can anticipate when he will use them. So I wouldn't really say his KO options are THAT reliable, even though he have them.

PAC-MAN's grab is the worst grab in the whole series and no one can convince me otherwise. I would much rather have Brawl Ganondorf's grab (!!!) than that of an utterly garbage one that PAC-MAN has. I commend you for thinking positively about that lackluster grab, but really, you are just fooling yourself if you think that it has some sort of merit to it no other grab have. You can't simply argue against data. (Once, a Captain Falcon has dash grabbed me while I grabbed, with the beam animation only reaching halfway.)

I still stand by my points. PAC-MAN needs buffs, and not only fixes.

Pac-Man's bair, fsmash, and dash attack can all kill. Sonic's fthrow is not a kill throw.

"they have a tool in grab in a heavily defensive game" <- Please make this comprehensible. Pac-Man may dislike rage, but it's not something he really hates (atleast, not nearly as much as other characters). His KO options aren't the most reliable, but they generally get the job done (unlike G&W and Duck Hunt).

Pac-Man's grab is the worst (along with Mewtwo's), but it does have one thing no other grab has, a long lingering grab-box. That is something you can't argue against.

 

[Goggalor]

I don't really understand why arguing is happening here. Isn't this a "dream" buffs thread? I'd get it if this were a "realistic buff" thread, but it's not. If the man wants 70% of Pac-Mans moves to get buffed, then the skies the limit.

I'll agree with both sides though. It wouldn't take much to be done to Pac to satisfy me and how I play, but we can't continuously rely on being unexpected in competitive play. Especially with all of this extra attention that Pac-Man has been getting from people like Zero and ESAM. We do need plenty of strong buffs if Pac-Man wants to continue to be a solid character in the metagame.

 

[Nu~]

Sorry for the late reply, but I will reply to all of you who replied to me.

Furret24 : My changes will not make PAC-MAN a powerhouse. Remember that Peach's dash attack is a KO move while most of PAC-MAN's moves aren't (Bair, for instance). And about the thing that "PAC-MAN has it easy [killing] compared to Duck Hunt Duo and Mr. Game & Watch" isn't necessarily right, but it could be true anyway. Not that the subject is about that. Robin mains tend to complain about their grab all the time, should I go over to them and show them PAC-MAN's grab? They can complain how much they want, even though our grab is worse. It is fine if they believe their grab is bad.

Nu~ : Well, everything isn't just theoretically. I would not say I am just sitting back and hoping for buffs that will never come. Since when is that on par with addressing a character's weaknesses? "You honestly need a character change or a different frame of mind because that list is insanity. You are asking for another character. An overpowered one at that" Care to explain more? Can you list at least five things (or rather, half the list, even though you meant the whole list) that would make PAC-MAN another character and an overpowered at that? Please explain you reasoning as well. Because I wanna know how.

K Kaiyedy : "-Did you say that the bell should stun when it's z-dropped? That would be the most broken thing in the game..." Read again. "-How/why would making the last hit on Pac's up b kill be useful in any way? You couldn't use in on the stage, even when someone is trying to land because you'd be in special fall. That's punish city." Why the heck not? Why are people so against minor things like this? (Please note that I am referring to the third jump/bounce, not the "fourth" one, the one that will put you in helpless.) But well, since you asked, I can explain: In some situations (like teams, for example) you escape a grab with the trampoline but the opposing character also lands on the trampoline, making it red almost immediately. I have never killed with it, not even high up on the stage or at 150% (<--opponents damage)... So yeah, why not? "-Wouldn't your proposition for f-throw just be another down throw?" Uhh, not really. D-throw sends along the ground (kinda) and f-throw is like in front of you but a bit far away. I'm not suggesting that f-throw should be another d-throw, but rather more close to the ground after the throw, so the opponent can choose whether to land on the ground or jump. (The current f-throw is higher up.) This could lead to some 50/50 situations. "-The power pellet is already powerful, it doesn't really need a buff..." You think so? Well, I think not. It isn't as strong as it should be. It takes long time to execute, can be interrupted AND is hard to hit with unless Bell setup at high %s. I want it to KO at around 100% (not like 120%-130%), which is reasonable for a move like that. And it also does too little damage. What a joke/shame...

"Second, don't complain about how bad a character is, especially if that character is your main. If you think Pac is bad and that the only reason people are losing against him then do one of these things: Look up Abadongo; Get another main; or GET GOOD SON." Why shouldn't I complain? Someone has to address his weaknesses. If nobody would ever complain, then that would mean the character is fine, which is definitely not PAC-MAN's case. Yes, I think PAC-MAN is underwhelming COMPARED TO other characters. Some tricks he has will not simply work in the future, like spamming trampoline for example, as some of you really like to put emphasis on. Sheik's bouncing fish, Diddy Kong's monkey flip, Zero Suit Samus's flip kick, imagine the salt of Luigi's misfire etc. But I digress. 1) I have looked up Abadango, but it's a bit disrespectful to say that his success is the cause of PAC-MAN and not on his skills (I believe his success lies in his skills and not entirely on the character). Would you claim that Mii Gunner is not an out-right terrible character if a Mii Gunner main won a notable tournament? 2) I will not get another main, as I main the one that matches my playing style the most and the one I have the most fun with. 3) A classical dumb argument. Why do people wrongly associate with someone being bad just because they think one's character is not viable? I don't know how good I am, but for my references, I placed ninth place at B.E.A.S.T. V (took place at the beginning of this year), Europe's biggest Smash tournament, and this was in the Hoo-Hah era. Now, while I believe I didn't played very well to be honest, like I didn't played optimally and as such, I still think I am pretty decent with PAC-MAN. I am much better now than I was back then. And oh, when I said "Sheik's fair being used against her", I meant it in a way that would shed light on PAC-MAN's Bonus Fruit being used against him.

ZeoLightning : I don't think these changed would make PAC-MAN OP in any way. He needs power buffs. His bair and d-smash are too weak, for example. But alright, it's just opinions.

BSP : THANK YOU!

It's the entire list as a whole. You're trying to give us Mario cqc while improving our projectile game. Don't get me wrong, that would be ****ing awesome, but it's rediculous.

I think you should rethink the character a little more before asking for buffs of that caliber. All we NEED is a grab buff imo.

BSP
I disagree with pac being a mid tier. Yes, in theory, a person who understands us as well as we do will do much better against us, but you are making it seem as if matchup knowledge is his anathema.

For whatever they learn, we have loopholes. Ignoring the hydrant only works for characters that can run through it, all of which you have to remember lose harder to trampoline. Knowing what fruit we charge to is nice and all, but just because the opponent knows what we have doesn't mean they know how and when we will use it.
Unless you get predictable, an orange will still gimp a fox whether he knows you have it or not, Fair -> key will still kill whether they know it or not, and DA-> bell will still kill whether the opponent knows or not.
Yes, they can take precautions, but tunnel vision is dangerous. They still have to focus on whatever else you are doing. Knowing isn't half the battle when you only know the half of it (I hope that made sense lol)

Shield was a big weakness, but remember what the great dev lords have given us. As soon as an opponent hits 100%, I would get a key in hand to set up either a shield brake or kill confirm. The opponent will start to shield more if they know our weakness, and we can abuse that. Keep on the shield pressure with keys and hydrants until they can't hold it anymore. Z drop key -> fair -> jump -> z drop again to keep the shield pressure on is another way to make the opponent rethink their decision to shield so liberally.

Fox and pikachu suffer from the same problem, and they work with it just fine. Keep up the pressure until you see an opening. Only while they have the speed to keep up the shield pressure, we have the projectiles to keep up shield pressure.

When you begin to fear what an opponent can do to us in the future, I would start coming up with a list of "counterplay to their counterplay". I also fight a skilled sonic main regularly who knows my character as well as I know his, and it's only made the matchup more interesting. He knows how to escape our gimmicks, but I still manage to make the matchup even because of the options we have to cover counterplay (without camping the ledge I might add)

We were not overbalanced imo, and I still believe that we are a top 15-20 character. We are just going to take a while to develop.

 

[verbatim]

while we're talking about dream buffs

Individual fruits have their respective stale move counters, but they all get rage.

-The last hit of the set was an Apple at 85

 

[Revibe]

I want the default Trampoline to last much longer, haha. I can't get enough of those ko's were the opponent trips the red line off the stage haha.

Pac man is 'mid-tier', and there is nothing wrong with that. However, everyone knows that once customs become more official all around, the game and tiers change. Pac and his meteor trampoline will have him climbing the ladders sure enough.

A bigger power pellet size would be nice as well.

WAIT GUYS. WHAT IF PAC MAN'S TRAMPOLINE BOUNCE ALWAYS HAS A METEOR STRIKE ON THE 3rd Bounce!? :D RECOVERY WOULD BE SO GOOD, Jigglypuffs sing would get buffed to keep up.

 

[Revibe]

Is this happening in the air or on the stage?

Both. Does anyone else know what I am referring to when pac man's side-b malfunctions from the start? (Like when you hit side-b and pac man opens his hand but the pellet disappears instantly. Even though there was another pellet in the air or on the stage, you landed on the stage or were hit so you are available to perform the move again, but it fails.)

(2 pellets would prevent this malfunction I think.)

 

[Splebel]

Both. Does anyone else know what I am referring to when pac man's side-b malfunctions from the start? (Like when you hit side-b and pac man opens his hand but the pellet disappears instantly. Even though there was another pellet in the air or on the stage, you landed on the stage or were hit so you are available to perform the move again, but it fails.)

(2 pellets would prevent this malfunction I think.)

I kinda do it happens to me. It's probably because the pellet was hit and you weren't although sometimes it still happens even though I know I was hit. It's either a glitch or the pellet got hit just after / at the same time.

I also get this glitch where I smash attack the hydrant but it won't launch. It could be stale moves but I don't think I use smash attacks that often or stale moves would lower it that much.

 

[ZeoLightning]

While I don't agree with all of the buffs xzx said, I do think he has the right idea. Pac-Man is a mid tier right now who gets better results than he should because people still fall for his gimmicks. Right now, people still feel the need to smack hydrant for some reason and still don't pay attention to Bonus Fruit sound cues. Everything becomes 100 times harder once your opponent is smart enough to ignore hydrant completely, pay attention to what Fruit you have stocked, and shield at high % because you can't KO him for doing so.

TBH once people know Pac-Man as well as we do, he'll struggle because his main tools are so easily turned against him. Not having a proper response to a universal defensive option is also a big problem. Our trampoline is alright, but it's not nearly enough. As it stands, he is an overbalanced character that thrives on MU inexperience.

Also grab is bad, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Speed and safety are the two biggest factors at high level play, and ours has neither. Again, it doesn't beat spotdodge unless the opponent spotdodges outside of the point blank grab range and before the beam starts going at them. People who know the MU will take it a step further and roll backwards, which we have no answer to outside of Key, or roll forward behind you after reacting to your grab (very possible since the grab box after the F12 is F22, slower than a SMASH ATTACK). Enjoy getting smash attacked.

Once again I have an example of how familiarity with Pac-Man changes everything. First it was Brawlman with Sonic, and now it's Jonathan with Villager. When we first started out, I would win our matches pretty consistently. Now, it's a pure tossup of who's going to win. He knows my ledge setups, so he either waits them out or disrupts my setup (that's a villager thing though). He realizes that every hydrant I throw out is a free 17% projectile for him that KOs under 100%. Villager is probably just a bad MU for us at top level, but it's frustrating when you can't use your moveset without fear of it being turned on you.

PAC-Man has enough utilities that you can always mix up your options well, even when people know the match up. PAC-MAN is high tier and will probably stay that way. snake didnt drop once people found out his tricks and traps. knowing what your opponent is capable of doesnt mean your going to win, it just means your better at adapting to it.

and villager is in the top 5 WORST matchups for PAC. being able to grab his projectiles and wall him out with his own hurts.

 

[gamecubeguy214]

[QUOTE="Splebel, Grab doing a hydrant gush. It gives Pacman the best grab range in the game. Also it acts as a getaway if you miss.[/QUOTE]
A hydrant gush? Isn't that when you use the water of PAC-MAN's to push you, kind of like a wavedash?

 

[BSP]

PAC-Man has enough utilities that you can always mix up your options well, even when people know the match up. PAC-MAN is high tier and will probably stay that way. snake didnt drop once people found out his tricks and traps. knowing what your opponent is capable of doesnt mean your going to win, it just means your better at adapting to it.

and villager is in the top 5 WORST matchups for PAC. being able to grab his projectiles and wall him out with his own hurts.

Snake had some of the best tilts in the game, great range, high weight, and a NORMAL GRAB. His game wasn't nearly as reliant on his projectiles as Pac-Man's is, and not having to rely on a trampoline to beat shield is huge.

No matter how many mockups we develop, our best option to beat shield will continue to be tacking on 7% and returning to neutral. That's not good enough, and it's the main reason we can't KO consistently. Nearly every other character gets the same if not more damage + advantage state / combo / edgeguard for landing a grab. It's a big problem.

 

[Revibe]

[Incoming Post: Challenging Opinion] {Hi-low, I have nothing better to do with my boring eternity than to get a little bit of that Smash-salt into my seasoned posts}
Pac-man's move-set can be speculized in this thread, but surprisingly it's still about dream buffs. Future patches were the ideal target. I was once thinking about buffs, and then even-custom-moves. My head spun because I was pushing my self to learn the fastest, to be the best, as fast as I never was. Only so I could be a 'good' tournament player. When really, I just want to play with some-one about as skilled as me so I can have fun, not glory.
For Glory mode doesn't have Mii's, customs, or even Smash balls. I was going to play For Glory, when I should have picked For Fun. The options in For Fun mode sucked as well. They never did stock, lag was real, this line of reasoning will be related to PAC soon enough. They had items, but not 1v1, because they probably thought that people would actually have friends to play 1v1 like in Pokemon. Yet, ultimately, I should have stayed out of For Glory and For Fun. It taught me wrong, especially because I was still learning a character.

What I am trying to say is,
Pac's Grab might need touched up sure, but this is about the player not PAC. If we as a community want Pac to be Top-Tier like we dream him to be, then we take the Pichu standard and DO-IT. Tiers are a joke at this stage in the community anyway. Hell, even For Glory gives you 5 minutes. 5 minutes! All you need is one stock and patience to win. (i@!?☻•◘○

 

[Kaiyedy]

True, but if you grab was fixed it'd open up so many more options! I think we might have the only main who's professional players never grab. Ever.

 

[Splebel]

A hydrant gush? Isn't that when you use the water of PAC-MAN's to push you, kind of like a wavedash?

Yes

 

[Froggy]

I would ask for less lag on our side-b. I understand why the lg is there but I like at moves like Shiek bouncing Fish or ZSS' flip kick and it just seems silly that our lag is so much.

 

[verbatim]

It's not so much that they don't have endlag as they do a hit on shield that pushes them away. IMO if we got a side b buff I'd rather it be knockback growth so bell to side b and pellet u-turn become essential techs and not just extra stuff.

 

[Nu~]

Why does this thread exist?

I feel that it encourages more complaining than innovating.

 

[Revibe]

Why does this thread exist?

I feel that it encourages more complaining than innovating.

People bought a game, they are sharing there experience and feelings. It is being contained, but this thread was designed to hear the community's wishes or ideas of patches involving PAC and the direction they should take. The community was really good with getting Sakurai to patch up ol' glitchy PAC. Think about this, if no one shared findings or feelings PAC could still be instant hydrant launching(melon) or dropping characters through the stages. Those were our tech's and advantages, and everyone else complained, so now we are trying to compensate.

 

[xzx]

Again, sorry for the late reply.

Pac-Man's bair, fsmash, and dash attack can all kill. Sonic's fthrow is not a kill throw.

"they have a tool in grab in a heavily defensive game" <- Please make this comprehensible. Pac-Man may dislike rage, but it's not something he really hates (atleast, not nearly as much as other characters). His KO options aren't the most reliable, but they generally get the job done (unlike G&W and Duck Hunt).

Pac-Man's grab is the worst (along with Mewtwo's), but it does have one thing no other grab has, a long lingering grab-box. That is something you can't argue against.

No just no! Stop it! His bair is NOT a kill move! His Dash attack is definitely NOT a kill move!! ~_~ Where do you get all this from?! Okay, say to me: At what kill % does his Bair and Dash attack KO then?? I guarantee Bair won't even kill at 150% in the middle of Final Destination! (Dash attack much later than that!) F-smash is strong, yes, but it has start-up (frame 18) and ending lag (FAF frame 53), making it not that reliable, but it's still good. If you say Sonic's f-throw is not a kill throw then you indirectly say that PAC-MAN's bair and dash attack are not as well, because Sonic's f-throw is stronger than PAC-MAN's bair and dash attack. (Bair: 10/98. Dash attack, hit 3: 100/60. Sonic's f-throw: 100/70.)

For your other point: Simply put, PAC-MAN can't grab. Mr. Game & Watch and Duck Hunt Duo can. If PAC-MAN misses, that may be the stock. If G&W/DHD misses, they at least can get away with it. Remember that PAC-MAN's grab ends on frame 76 if he misses. It's more than a second! It's ridiculous!!

PAC-MAN really hates, like, REALLY HATES rage!! He loses to Bowser because of that mechanic! PAC-MAN always brings up his opponents to rage, while never benefitting from it himself, because 1) He's still too weak, meaning that many attacks don't get that much of a boost, and 2) The rage of his opponent will likely KO him before he can utilize it himself. (Lightweights in general hates rage, because they get killed much earlier than they already would.) So no, you can't really say that PAC-MAN doesn't hate it. He is at least in the Top 5 in the "most rage-hating characters" list.

"His KO options...generally get the job done." Not really. As I've stated in my other posts, PAC-MAN has trouble KOing because he's too weak and can't always reliably land his kill moves, at least against people who actually has PAC-MAN knowledge. I don't need to elaborate this further.

No, no, NO!! Mewtwo's grab is not as worse as PAC-MAN's grab!! When will people actually realize that PAC-MAN has the worst grab in the entire Smash Series!?! How can you argue against this: Hitbox Active Frames 12-14, 22-24, 32-39, FAF 76?!! And those three hitboxes are tiny as heck too!! How can you claim that it has a "long lingering grab-box"? How can you do that?! Doesn't all tethers have that?? Just look at the data, I beg you! PAC-MAN's laggy-ass Brawl Wi-Fi beam is not long lingering!!! Please provide me with any grab that is WORSE than this! Please!

(Please not that I sound angry, but it's not towards you, it's against your statements. ;P No hard feelings yo.)


Nu~ : "It's the entire list as a whole. You're trying to give us Mario cqc while improving our projectile game. Don't get me wrong, that would be ****ing awesome, but it's rediculous.

I think you should rethink the character a little more before asking for buffs of that caliber. All we NEED is a grab buff imo."

Do you really think that my list is going to change PAC-MAN so he will be another whole-new character instead? Do you? Because that statement would be totally wrong. Please give me some examples then, as I desired from you in my other post. Please give me 5 things, if it's the entire list as a whole that is the problem. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to just point out 5 things that will make PAC-MAN "another character"/whatever you mean. Go ahead.

The thing is, Pacman9, is that I HAVE rethinked the character a lot (maybe more than you I don't know). PAC-MAN doesn't need just a fix to his grab, he needs more. Isn't that obvious? Maybe it isn't, but the fact is that PAC-MAN needs more if he wants to be able to survive this metagame. Just watch in a couple of years. (That is, if PAC-MAN will be largely untouched.)

 

[Furret24]

Again, sorry for the late reply.

No just no! Stop it! His bair is NOT a kill move! His Dash attack is definitely NOT a kill move!! ~_~ Where do you get all this from?! Okay, say to me: At what kill % does his Bair and Dash attack KO then?? I guarantee Bair won't even kill at 150% in the middle of Final Destination! (Dash attack much later than that!) F-smash is strong, yes, but it has start-up (frame 18) and ending lag (FAF frame 53), making it not that reliable, but it's still good. If you say Sonic's f-throw is not a kill throw then you indirectly say that PAC-MAN's bair and dash attack are not as well, because Sonic's f-throw is stronger than PAC-MAN's bair and dash attack. (Bair: 10/98. Dash attack, hit 3: 100/60. Sonic's f-throw: 100/70.)

For your other point: Simply put, PAC-MAN can't grab. Mr. Game & Watch and Duck Hunt Duo can. If PAC-MAN misses, that may be the stock. If G&W/DHD misses, they at least can get away with it. Remember that PAC-MAN's grab ends on frame 76 if he misses. It's more than a second! It's ridiculous!!

PAC-MAN really hates, like, REALLY HATES rage!! He loses to Bowser because of that mechanic! PAC-MAN always brings up his opponents to rage, while never benefitting from it himself, because 1) He's still too weak, meaning that many attacks don't get that much of a boost, and 2) The rage of his opponent will likely KO him before he can utilize it himself. (Lightweights in general hates rage, because they get killed much earlier than they already would.) So no, you can't really say that PAC-MAN doesn't hate it. He is at least in the Top 5 in the "most rage-hating characters" list.

"His KO options...generally get the job done." Not really. As I've stated in my other posts, PAC-MAN has trouble KOing because he's too weak and can't always reliably land his kill moves, at least against people who actually has PAC-MAN knowledge. I don't need to elaborate this further.

No, no, NO!! Mewtwo's grab is not as worse as PAC-MAN's grab!! When will people actually realize that PAC-MAN has the worst grab in the entire Smash Series!?! How can you argue against this: Hitbox Active Frames 12-14, 22-24, 32-39, FAF 76?!! And those three hitboxes are tiny as heck too!! How can you claim that it has a "long lingering grab-box"? How can you do that?! Doesn't all tethers have that?? Just look at the data, I beg you! PAC-MAN's laggy-*** Brawl Wi-Fi beam is not long lingering!!! Please provide me with any grab that is WORSE than this! Please!

(Please not that I sound angry, but it's not towards you, it's against your statements. ;P No hard feelings yo.)

Atleast Pac-Man's grab has range. The range on G&W's is laughable. It's so bad infact, that you can be grabbed back if you miss since you had to get so close to even attempt to grab.

If you're trying to kill with Bair onstage, you're not using it right. What Pac-Man's Bair has over Sonic's fthrow (why bring that up when uthrow and B-throw are so much better BTW) is that it does 4% more (which matters alot) and can be used offstage. Sonic's fthrow is also far more prone to DI than Pac-Man's Bair due to angle it sends opponents in. Either way, even if we use your Mario FD testing point, Sonic's fthrow still kills later than Pac-Man's Bair.

Pac-Man may have issues killing, but they're not as big of an issue as you make it out to be. Fsmash and usmash take reads, but are quite powerful. If you have issues landing these, certain fruit and aerials can kill at reasonable percents.

Pac-Man's grab having 37 frames of endlag isn't that terrible compared to other grabs. Look at Villager's, who has similar range, no lingering grab-box, 40 frames of endlag. Link's has 45 frames of endlag. Pac-Man's grab has 14 active frames, compared to Link's 6. Data doesn't lie. And yes, Mewtwo's grab is as bad as Pac-Man's because, while it may not be that laggy, it has issues actually grabbing opponents. Mewtwo can not reliably grab a number of short characters, especially with his dash grab.

Could we just drop this though, I really don't want to continue this.

 

[Kaiyedy]

Atleast Pac-Man's grab has range. The range on G&W's is laughable. It's so bad infact, that you can be grabbed back if you miss since you had to get so close to even attempt to grab.

If you're trying to kill with Bair onstage, you're not using it right. What Pac-Man's Bair has over Sonic's fthrow (why bring that up when uthrow and B-throw are so much better BTW) is that it does 4% more (which matters alot) and can be used offstage. Sonic's fthrow is also far more prone to DI than Pac-Man's Bair due to angle it sends opponents in. Either way, even if we use your Mario FD testing point, Sonic's fthrow still kills later than Pac-Man's Bair.

Pac-Man may have issues killing, but they're not as big of an issue as you make it out to be. Fsmash and usmash take reads, but are quite powerful. If you have issues landing these, certain fruit and aerials can kill at reasonable percents.

Pac-Man's grab having 37 frames of endlag isn't that terrible compared to other grabs. Look at Villager's, who has similar range, no lingering grab-box, 40 frames of endlag. Link's has 45 frames of endlag. Pac-Man's grab has 14 active frames, compared to Link's 6. Data doesn't lie. And yes, Mewtwo's grab is as bad as Pac-Man's because, while it may not be that laggy, it has issues actually grabbing opponents. Mewtwo can not reliably grab a number of short characters, especially with his dash grab.

Could we just drop this though, I really don't want to continue this.

I agree with that last point. We should just stop this. Right now I want a patch and a Pac buff, but NOT because I think he's a bad character (although I do agree he'd benefit from some I do not think he needs it necessarily). I want it because I've seen things like this lately, and I need something, ANYTHING to give me confidence in my character! (Also I've been in a funk lately and been rethinking my playstyle, but still)

I see this and I'm like "damn yeah pax sucks because this and this and this. That guys right!" And it's killing my character! Please guys, let's stop this.

 

[Nu~]

Again, sorry for the late reply.

No just no! Stop it! His bair is NOT a kill move! His Dash attack is definitely NOT a kill move!! ~_~ Where do you get all this from?! Okay, say to me: At what kill % does his Bair and Dash attack KO then?? I guarantee Bair won't even kill at 150% in the middle of Final Destination! (Dash attack much later than that!) F-smash is strong, yes, but it has start-up (frame 18) and ending lag (FAF frame 53), making it not that reliable, but it's still good. If you say Sonic's f-throw is not a kill throw then you indirectly say that PAC-MAN's bair and dash attack are not as well, because Sonic's f-throw is stronger than PAC-MAN's bair and dash attack. (Bair: 10/98. Dash attack, hit 3: 100/60. Sonic's f-throw: 100/70.)

For your other point: Simply put, PAC-MAN can't grab. Mr. Game & Watch and Duck Hunt Duo can. If PAC-MAN misses, that may be the stock. If G&W/DHD misses, they at least can get away with it. Remember that PAC-MAN's grab ends on frame 76 if he misses. It's more than a second! It's ridiculous!!

PAC-MAN really hates, like, REALLY HATES rage!! He loses to Bowser because of that mechanic! PAC-MAN always brings up his opponents to rage, while never benefitting from it himself, because 1) He's still too weak, meaning that many attacks don't get that much of a boost, and 2) The rage of his opponent will likely KO him before he can utilize it himself. (Lightweights in general hates rage, because they get killed much earlier than they already would.) So no, you can't really say that PAC-MAN doesn't hate it. He is at least in the Top 5 in the "most rage-hating characters" list.

"His KO options...generally get the job done." Not really. As I've stated in my other posts, PAC-MAN has trouble KOing because he's too weak and can't always reliably land his kill moves, at least against people who actually has PAC-MAN knowledge. I don't need to elaborate this further.

No, no, NO!! Mewtwo's grab is not as worse as PAC-MAN's grab!! When will people actually realize that PAC-MAN has the worst grab in the entire Smash Series!?! How can you argue against this: Hitbox Active Frames 12-14, 22-24, 32-39, FAF 76?!! And those three hitboxes are tiny as heck too!! How can you claim that it has a "long lingering grab-box"? How can you do that?! Doesn't all tethers have that?? Just look at the data, I beg you! PAC-MAN's laggy-*** Brawl Wi-Fi beam is not long lingering!!! Please provide me with any grab that is WORSE than this! Please!

(Please not that I sound angry, but it's not towards you, it's against your statements. ;P No hard feelings yo.)


Nu~ : "It's the entire list as a whole. You're trying to give us Mario cqc while improving our projectile game. Don't get me wrong, that would be ****ing awesome, but it's rediculous.

I think you should rethink the character a little more before asking for buffs of that caliber. All we NEED is a grab buff imo."

Do you really think that my list is going to change PAC-MAN so he will be another whole-new character instead? Do you? Because that statement would be totally wrong. Please give me some examples then, as I desired from you in my other post. Please give me 5 things, if it's the entire list as a whole that is the problem. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to just point out 5 things that will make PAC-MAN "another character"/whatever you mean. Go ahead.

The thing is, Pacman9, is that I HAVE rethinked the character a lot (maybe more than you I don't know). PAC-MAN doesn't need just a fix to his grab, he needs more. Isn't that obvious? Maybe it isn't, but the fact is that PAC-MAN needs more if he wants to be able to survive this metagame. Just watch in a couple of years. (That is, if PAC-MAN will be largely untouched.)

What part of "the entire list as a whole" do you not understand? I don't need to explain this. Everything all together in that list would give us Mario frame data with more power. On top of our stellar zoning tools. Can YOU not see what is wrong?

He is already viable. You keep clinging to tiny things that aren't real problems (muh bair can't kill from center stage) The hyperbole is out of this world as well. "we lose to bowser because rage"
Hell, guess pikachu loses too. I don't care how much rage he gets, he still isn't getting in. Unless rage somehow makes him invincible to trampoline and fruit, bowser still gets **** on. We can even time him out if we don't get the kill. And not every character reaches rage against us lol. Fair to key kills most opponents at around 105->120. And fair-> bell -> inky/blinky kills even earlier.

Fruit setups, DACIT, shield pressure with z drops, inescapable ledgeguard setups...you highly exaggerate our KO problems . We aren't DH or G&W, we have actual kill setups. The biggest problem was that they all lost to shield, but now shielding is a liability due to the new shield mechanics. If I z drop a key on your shield, that's a guaranteed shield brake right there. And DA-> bell -> side B is still true.

Dude...we have so many ways to seal the kill that it isn't funny. You just have to mix it up and not hope for some Ness back throw to solve your problems.

Cry about our grab all you want, it's the main thing keeping us balanced. And we still have ways around it. Just like villager, we have the shield pressure to make a bad grab a non issue.

If you have analyzed pacman more than me, then you wouldn't be here going on about problems that we already have answers for.

I'm done with this conversation.

 

[Sinji]

buffs i would like. fix his grab. make his trampoline last 5 seconds longer on the stage so that our red trampoline would have more relevance. make his up air have more knockback. make hydrant shoot out water three times while out just like the on fire hydrant custom. make the first hit of up smash always connect into the second hit against short characters after the bell. I've hit Mike Kirby too many times with the bell and i only get the first hit of upsmash.

 

[Revibe]

I'm surprised no one wants to see Exploding Hydrant get tuned. I don't think it matches the games description.

 

[verbatim]

Bug fixing for his grab and up smash would be amazing, but I'd love it they fixed the grosses of all character injustices that they created by not giving him a hydrant that doesn't release anything but meteor spikes.

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man may have issues killing, but they're not as big of an issue as you make it out to be. Fsmash and usmash take reads, but are quite powerful. If you have issues landing these, certain fruit and aerials can kill at reasonable percents.

Pac-Man's grab having 37 frames of endlag isn't that terrible compared to other grabs. Look at Villager's, who has similar range, no lingering grab-box, 40 frames of endlag. Link's has 45 frames of endlag. Pac-Man's grab has 14 active frames, compared to Link's 6. Data doesn't lie. And yes, Mewtwo's grab is as bad as Pac-Man's because, while it may not be that laggy, it has issues actually grabbing opponents. Mewtwo can not reliably grab a number of short characters, especially with his dash grab.

You don't need to respond since you said you want to drop this, but xzx is not exaggerating Pac-Man's KO'ing issues in the slightest. Rage is a huge deal, and Pac-Man's opponent will get to full rage 95% of the time unless they make some really dumb move and get hit by a smash attack. When you understand the character, you realize there is 0 reason to drop shield next to him if you think you might die. You'll never get hit by bell, hydrant, or anything lethal if you use your shield wisely. Pac-Man can risk his life on a grab, or he can trampoline you for 7% and you get out of the situation with your stock intact.

Game and Watch + Duck Hunt, at the least, can put you in a disadvantaged position for shielding consistently. Pac-Man can't do that, and it's a big problem.

As for the other grab comparisons, Villager's is the only other one I'd put remotely close to level of awfulness that is Pac-Man's grab, but I'd still say Pac-Man's is worse.

Link's grab has no dead zones in it and has actual range. I'd take his grab over Pac-Man's in a heartbeat.

As for Mewtwo's, I'll take your word for it. However, like Wii Fit's, they'll probably patch this problem out while we're left to suffer.

 

[verbatim]

As for the other grab comparisons, Villager's is the only other one I'd put remotely close to level of awfulness that is Pac-Man's grab, but I'd still say Pac-Man's is worse.

Addendum, Villager's downthrow true combo's into about half of the things that he can pocket in the game, and sets up fair strings... AND he has the second strongest kill backthrow behind Ness. For his bad grab (that's ultimately still better than Pacman's) he gets a SIGNIFICANTLY better reward. M2 doesn't benefit as much but he has a reliable kill throw and significantly less endlag.

 

[Nu~]

I'm Still wishing for those grab and or throw buffs...

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Tinks grab and throw game imo is down there for one of the worst, their damage is nothing special, his throws have no true combos and can be easily avoided and its not like getting the grab is easy in the first place, if it weren't for his Bthrow, I'd say his grab game may be worse then yours.

Hmm......what would be the biggest improvement to your grab and throw game? A better kill throw? Better combo throw? Better grab?

 

[Furret24]

Hmm......what would be the biggest improvement to your grab and throw game? A better kill throw? Better combo throw? Better grab?

All three really. Bthrow is rather weak compared to others, we don't have a true combo throw, and our grab is arguably the worst in the game.

 

[verbatim]

Tinks grab and throw game imo is down there for one of the worst, their damage is nothing special, his throws have no true combos and can be easily avoided and its not like getting the grab is easy in the first place, if it weren't for his Bthrow, I'd say his grab game may be worse then yours.

Hmm......what would be the biggest improvement to your grab and throw game? A better kill throw? Better combo throw? Better grab?

Tink has the third best kill backthrow. Realistically Pacman would benefit the most from a better grab so he can reliably deal with shields.

 

[Nu~]

Our down throw is great for tech chases and our fthrow is cool for galaxian combos, but that isn't enough to make our throw game threatening.

 

[fromundaman]

I just want Fair to have enough blockstun and hitstun to reliably combo into Nair/Hydrant on block or into jabs on hit at any %. If you give me that, then we have actual shield mixups.

I wouldn't be opposed to Nair or hydrant being safer on block though, Ftilt to maybe get a slight disjoint and of course some sort of grab buff.


Still... give me the Fair change and I will be a happy Pacman.

 

[BSP]

Just to note, I tested what xzx said about Bair not KO'ing from FD's center at 150%. As Mario, I was able to live from Pac-Man's Bair in training mode until ~174% before the Bair hit. It definitely KO's earlier than Sonic's Fthrow, but it's not strong by any means.

Edit: I know rage doesn't happen in training mode, but our Bair wouldn't scale that well with it anyway. It has 10 base knockback and 90 or so growth.

Our smashes are average as far as power goes, but they are pretty dang slow. They do have the whole can't rebound effect going for them, but that usually only helps you get the sour spot hit. Now if the strong hit persisted through any clanking, that'd be a different story.

I never thought about it, but side B is laughably weak damage and KB wise considering how it's one of the most telegraphed moves in the game. It needs some bonus shield damage or something, jeez.

 

[Froggy]

Tink has the third best kill backthrow. Realistically Pacman would benefit the most from a better grab so he can reliably deal with shields.

It annoys me how powerful Tlink and Villagers back throws are and Pacman doesn't get the same treatment, ugh!

BSP : I don't know if you factored this in or not but remember that rage doesn't not manifest in training mode

 

[Splebel]

I'm confused. What do you mean by our smash attacks "can't rebound"?

 

[Furret24]

Just to note, I tested what xzx said about Bair not KO'ing from FD's center at 150%. As Mario, I was able to live from Pac-Man's Bair in training mode until ~174% before the Bair hit. It definitely KO's earlier than Sonic's Fthrow, but it's not strong by any means.

Edit: I know rage doesn't happen in training mode, but our Bair wouldn't scale that well with it anyway. It has 10 base knockback and 90 or so growth.

Our smashes are average as far as power goes, but they are pretty dang slow. They do have the whole can't rebound effect going for them, but that usually only helps you get the sour spot hit. Now if the strong hit persisted through any clanking, that'd be a different story.

I never thought about it, but side B is laughably weak damage and KB wise considering how it's one of the most telegraphed moves in the game. It needs some bonus shield damage or something, jeez.

Doesn't side special kill at 110% if you sweetspot it? I find it difficult to land though and the sourspot is really weak.

 

[BSP]

I'm confused. What do you mean by our smash attacks "can't rebound"?

Pac-Man's ghosts don't follow the usual clanking rules when it comes to grounded attacks colliding.

Go into to training mode with Sonic and Pac-Man, then have them start Fsmashes at the same time towards each other and about a character length apart. Normally when when ground moves clank and the difference between the damage values of the moves is less than 9% (I could be wrong on this value), both moves will be cancelled out and the users will have some lag. This is the rebound I'm referring to. This isn't the case with Pac-Man's ghosts. You'll observe that Blinky's strong hit will cancel Sonic's Fsmash and then continue to hit him with the sour spot. Same applies to Pinky, Clyde, and Inky. Even moves that should override Pac-Man's ghosts completely (IE Ganon Fsmash) still won't interrupt the animation unless Pac-Man himself gets hit.

For a normal interaction, have Wario and Sonic start Fsmashes at the same time facing each other. The moves should clank and both of them should go into rebound lag, unless Wario's smashes don't rebound either.

This whole "can't rebound" property can be seen on Little Mac's F and U tilts, Villager's Ftilt, and some other obscure moves.

The good thing about this property is that these moves are supposed to be dominant on the ground, I guess. Unfortunately, our smashes are so slow that it's still not a good idea to throw them out unless you're near certain they'll hit.

Doesn't side special kill at 110% if you sweetspot it? I find it difficult to land though and the sourspot is really weak.

It's decently strong, but you will never the land the move outside of a bell confirm against a competent opponent. Given that, it should hit like a truck. 12% is pretty laughable.

 

[Kaiyedy]

I'd say that Pac's smashes are above average. Sure they have some end lag but they have good range and deflect items.

 

[ZeoLightning]

besides just the grab issue i want some side B buff's. Making it stronger perhaps, REMOVING THE GODDAMN FLOOR WALL MISS, and make it so we can tech the floor or wall, that'd be great AND show skill. I've killed with Bair but not from center stage, but Bair can reliably kill, i have done it before. but all i want is those major things.

 

[xzx]

Furret24 : I give up. I simply think you are wrong and thus I don't want to continue this, since it is pretty annoying how wrong you are. No offense of course, but I'd say we drop this.

Nu~ : Same for you. I heavily disagree with most things you've said in this conversation, since you only look at the theoretical aspect of PAC-MAN and not the practical aspect as well, I feel. It's also annoying how you didn't want to chose some things on my list and argue against that. I respect that you think the whole list combined is the fault, but at least chose the key points. You didn't, and it is very disappointing. But it may be better to just drop this and wait until the truth of PAC-MAN unfolds.

Won't bother here now. The last thing I want to say is that they need to change the Power Pellet mechanic/hitboxes so that PAC-MAN drags the opponents towards the Power Pellet, so it will be a multihitting move and thus more reliable to connect/execute. Think of it: He chomps on the Pac-dots (wouldn't that produce multiple hitboxes) and continues to chomp until he eats the Power Pellet. If that were to happen, then it would be a more reliable offensive move, since it mostly is a defensive move.