Did they reduce the landing lag?

[Beats]

I don't think it's adversity to change, so much as not wanting the outright removal of options. With aerial approaches, you can fade back or cross up their shield while attacking in order to make it harder for the opponent to punish. On the other hand, when attacking on the ground there's nothing you can do aside from the initial spacing before throwing out a move. The same move will always have the same animation lag, always be in about a similar place relative to the opponent, there's less variation. Ground approaches can't really replace aerial approaches.

As Senario mentioned, there were definitely ground approach options in Melee. Why not make both air and ground viable instead of only ground?

All this said, I realize the amount of landing lag isn't definitive at this point so it's hard to make judgement on how viable different approaches will be. Just trying to argue against the hypothetical case where people are saying smash 4 will be ground based.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I'm probably wrong on this, but:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ComplacentGamingSyndrome

It would almost seem to me that the complaining about the aerial lag can also be put down to this. People are so used to playing 75% or more in the air that when things are forcing them down, they dislike it. The game has been so aerial dominated, that when forced to change, people will inevitably hate it.

As was already discussed, that's because ground options have proven to usually be less effective three games in a row.
---------------------------------------------------------
Also can we get @ Johnknight1 in here? I remember him saying that Toon Link's Fair, Nair and Zair have minimal, if any, landing lag. I'd love you to contribute to this. How does it compare to Brawl's landing lag? That's sure to get the topic back to whether landing lag was reduced or not, rather than "will Smash 4 suck because of a lack of air options?".

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You just love to try and start fights don't you? Look at Ganon in brawl and see what happens when you try to "balance" with landing lag like you want to.

Sorry, but as previously stated and for many valid reasons, you can not use Brawl as a definitive source to validate your claims that landing lag is inherently a bad direction got Smash 4.

It's really no use going in circles. Wait for the game and play it first. There is so much we do not know about how the smash 4 meta will play out.

 

[makegoodchoices]

I was rewatching some of the SSB3D gameplay from E3 and while I'm no expert, the landing lag looks a lot better there than on the Wii U version. Since the 3DS version releases sooner, maybe so far they prioritized that version and the Wii U version will get better? I don't know for sure, but I'm throwing that idea out there.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Can't wait for the balanced landing lag, personally.

Keep it up, Sakurai.

What is your problem? Are you just trying to start arguments with people, because this is getting plain ridiculous now.

I was rewatching some of the SSB3D gameplay from E3 and while I'm no expert, the landing lag looks a lot better there than on the Wii U version. Since the 3DS version releases sooner, maybe so far they prioritized that version and the Wii U version will get better? I don't know for sure, but I'm throwing that idea out there.

This does make me wonder if both versions will have the same mechanics. Landing lag may shorter on 3ds, but I've heard people say the 3ds version is slower than the Wii U version. Maybe both versions differ in gameplay mechanics.

 

[makegoodchoices]

This does make me wonder if both versions will have the same mechanics. Landing lag may shorter on 3ds, but I've heard people say the 3ds version is slower than the Wii U version. Maybe both versions differ in gameplay mechanics.

You know, I'd never thought of that. I always assumed they'd try to make them as similar as possible, but maybe since they're two separate systems we'll end up with two completely different games.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

This does make me wonder if both versions will have the same mechanics. Landing lag may shorter on 3ds, but I've heard people say the 3ds version is slower than the Wii U version. Maybe both versions differ in gameplay mechanics.

The optimist in me says that hopefully that's because the 3DS version is closer to completion and the landing lag actually IS reduced.
The pessimist in me says that the 3DS version actually isn't running at 60fps (Samurai you lied to us!), so it looks faster than it really is.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

You know, I'd never thought of that. I always assumed they'd try to make them as similar as possible, but maybe since they're two separate systems we'll end up with two completely different games.

In a way, I'm fine with that, but it does surprise me both games don't have identical mechanics. At the moment, I am inclined to play the 3ds version to see if what people say is true.

The optimist in me says that hopefully that's because the 3DS version is closer to completion and the landing lag actually IS reduced.
The pessimist in me says that the 3DS version actually isn't running at 60fps (Samurai you lied to us!), so it looks faster than it really is.

Samurai wouldn't lie to us about 60 fps(hopefully). I hope we can see gameplay footage soon of the game's current build of both versions.

 

[Senario]

This does make me wonder if both versions will have the same mechanics. Landing lag may shorter on 3ds, but I've heard people say the 3ds version is slower than the Wii U version. Maybe both versions differ in gameplay mechanics.

Well that or landing lag is shorter on the 3ds version because it is coming out sooner and thus should be farther ahead in development.

All in all the Landing lag on air moves looks extremely nice for sheik. It is a good thing I happen to like Sheik although I can't play her well enough in melee (those short hops so hrd! I can do tech chases). Although I would like Robin to also have quicker landing lag, I'm a huge fire emblem fan and loved the character in awakening. All else fails I play sheik.

 

[Zeallyx]

I get that, but I'm saying that there's more than one way to approach than just through jump-in attacks.

I already acknowledged that (DACUS and dash attack). =)

 

[Deleted member 245254]

What is your problem? Are you just trying to start arguments with people, because this is getting plain ridiculous now.

You know you have issues when a simple statement of ones opinion is somehow wanting to start a fight.

I like the landing lag and what they're doing with that. That's not an argument, it's a statement. You can argue with it all you want but please, stop acting like the issue of landing lag is one-sided.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

You know you have issues when a simple statement of ones opinion is somehow wanting to start a fight.

I like the landing lag and what they're doing with that. That's not an argument, it's a statement. You can argue with it all you want but please, stop acting like the issue of landing lag is one-sided.

And now you're saying I have issues? What? The way you typed your sentence... it's like you know exactly why people are becoming frustrated, yet you continue with your little attitude.


Please stop. For the sake of the people reading this thread, commenting on this thread, and arguing with you on this thread.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

And now you're saying I have issues? What? The way you typed your sentence... it's like you know exactly why people are becoming frustrated, yet you continue with your little attitude.


Please stop. For the sake of the people reading this thread, commenting on this thread, and arguing with you on this thread.

So why is everyone becoming frustrated since you seem to know about everyone better than I do?

 

[Senario]

And now you're saying I have issues? What? The way you typed your sentence... it's like you know exactly why people are becoming frustrated, yet you continue with your little attitude.


Please stop. For the sake of the people reading this thread, commenting on this thread, and arguing with you on this thread.

psst quick tip. Don't feed it. Carry on people! Nothing to see here!

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

So why is everyone becoming frustrated since you seem to know about everyone better than I do?

I have enough sense to know the people who were initially viewing this thread were not interested in viewing an argument.

psst quick tip. Don't feed it. Carry on people! Nothing to see here!

Yeah, I'm done with him now.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I have enough sense to know the people who were initially viewing this thread were not interested in viewing an argument.

Yeah, I'm done with him now.

So you live in a fantastical world where disagreements never happen?

If someone addresses landing lag in a landing lag topic in a way I disagree with, I'm going to let them know. That's how a forum works. That's how discussion works.

You are the real trolls in this thread, the only difference is I enjoy "feeding" you because I'm legitimately curious as to what makes Melee-fans tick, and why they're so against new design elements and new mechanics or takes on mechanics.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

So you live in a fantastical world where disagreements never happen?

If someone addresses landing lag in a landing lag topic in a way I disagree with, I'm going to let them know. That's how a forum works. That's how discussion works.

You are the real trolls in this thread, the only difference is I enjoy "feeding" you because I'm legitimately curious as to what makes Melee-fans tick, and why they're so against new design elements and new mechanics or takes on mechanics.

Like I said, I'm done. Anymore conversation with you will just result in a headache.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Like I said, I'm done. Anymore conversation with you will just result in a headache.

I feel sorry for you then. It takes such a minuscule amount of effort to read and respond on a place like Smashboards, if it really gives you physical headaches to process this kind of content I fear what your experience in college is (was/will be?).

I'll make it simple for you in an effort to be considerate. Landing lag is not some kind of enemy of the state. Many folks recognize a solid direction the games development is going in concerns to landing lags use. It is because of this that I do not hold a chip on my shoulder on whether it will be reduced or not in the next piece of footage. I like where its at and wouldn't mind if it released as it was seen.

So what do you think the inclination is when I see people speak as though the concept is inherently bad? Of course it entices minds similar to speak up and stop you speaking for us when acting like its a foregone conclusion that everyone wants zero landing lag.

 

[Pyra]

There's a difference between discussing something and beating a point into someone's head needlessly.

 

[JV5Chris]

Please don't miss quote people. I find it very offensive that people might think I said something when I never did.

Edit: Didn't realize your name got in there somehow by accident. Didn't mean to, was in a rush on my way to work. Don't know how that happened, but I corrected it. Please accept my apology.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

I feel sorry for you then. It takes such a minuscule amount of effort to read and respond on a place like Smashboards, if it really gives you physical headaches to process this kind of content I fear what your experience in college is (was/will be?).

I'll make it simple for you in an effort to be considerate. Landing lag is not some kind of enemy of the state. Many folks recognize a solid direction the games development is going in concerns to landing lags use. It is because of this that I do not hold a chip on my shoulder on whether it will be reduced or not in the next piece of footage. I like where its at and wouldn't mind if it released as it was seen.

So what do you think the inclination is when I see people speak as though the concept is inherently bad? Of course it entices minds similar to speak up and stop you speaking for us when acting like its a foregone conclusion that everyone wants zero landing lag.

There you go again... If anyone needs me, I will be reading Miiverse posts.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

There you go again... If anyone needs me, I will be reading Miiverse posts.

Well don't stick your nose in to the conversation if your only plan is to wimp out of it 2 posts later...

 

[Hong]

This discussion has become remarkably uncivil.

It's possible to discuss the game without having to needlessly jab at each other and instigate conflict. Get back on topic.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

You just love to try and start fights don't you? Look at Ganon in brawl and see what happens when you try to "balance" with landing lag like you want to.

Ganon/Brawl was a case where the landing lag concept was sound, but the balancing itself wasn't. AKA Ganondorf didn't have enough to offset his slowness. For example look at Melee; the idea was there too, just better balanced.

SSB4 is looking great so far and like Zipzo mentioned Sakurai acknowledged the mistakes he's made in Brawl and this is the first time he's acknowledging the competitive players and saying that he wants a game that appeals to everyone.

 

[Tristan_win]

Edit: Didn't realize your name got in there somehow by accident. Didn't mean to, was in a rush on my way to work. Don't know how that happened, but I corrected it. Please accept my apology.

=) Thank you for fixing your post =)

Edit: Oh just a heads up your 'Air Dash Online' thread has many broken links within it.

 

[xxEliteAlicexx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZHUv5usE5c

Irrelevant but combos for days!!!

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Pretty sure those are N-airs autocancel frames, which really don't prove much.

 

[ferioku]

If i remember correctly the brawl demo had L- Canceling. Even though I doubt it, imagine if it was implemented into the later build of smash?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZHUv5usE5c

Irrelevant but combos for days!!!

I remember that, Kirby is looking to be a dangerous character!

 

[Johnknight1]

Also can we get @ Johnknight1 in here? I remember him saying that Toon Link's Fair, Nair and Zair have minimal, if any, landing lag. I'd love you to contribute to this. How does it compare to Brawl's landing lag? That's sure to get the topic back to whether landing lag was reduced or not, rather than "will Smash 4 suck because of a lack of air options?".

There's lagless landing for roughly half the aerials.

Do you all know what Z-canceling is in Smash 64=???

Basically it's like L-canceling in Melee in every way EXCEPT there is ZERO landing lag after you do it! NONE!

"Lagless landing" is 100% that, only without the Z-canceling.

Thus, it literally is an an automatic Z-canceling mechanic!

Roughly half of the aerials of each character have lagless landing, and usually they're the good ones.

===

Toon Link's are his forward air, neutral air, and z-air. Fox's are down air, neutral air, and (I think) back air.

I think the Wii Fit Trainer's were like down air, neutral air, and maybe back air. I don't remember too well because I was too busy trying to learn her, lol.

Mega Man's I think were back air and neutral air; I couldn't figure out if the down air had any.

From what my brother told me Marth's were neutral air, back air, and (I think) down air.

My brother told me the ones for Little Mac, but I forgot.

From what this guy Ryan told me (he's essentially a Brawl guru, at one time was the best Fox in Brawl and was ranked 10th in NorCal Brawl, and knows A TON about Brawl and buffering and has hidden Brawl combos no one else knows, lol), Samus' are her Z-air, neutral air, back air, and maybe her forward air.

===

But to answer the thread's question, yes they did. Toon Link's back air, up air, and especially down air have less landing lag, and none of them have lagless landing.

Also, Fox's landing lag is significantly less in his up air. It is very similar to Melee; maybe even less (than without L-canceling).

 

[pickle962]

There's lagless landing for roughly half the aerials.

Do you all know what Z-canceling is in Smash 64=???

Basically it's like L-canceling in Melee in every way EXCEPT there is ZERO landing lag after you do it! NONE!

"Lagless landing" is 100% that, only without the Z-canceling.

Thus, it literally is an an automatic Z-canceling mechanic!

Roughly half of the aerials of each character have lagless landing, and usually they're the good ones.

===

Toon Link's are his forward air, neutral air, and z-air. Fox's are down air, neutral air, and (I think) back air.

I think the Wii Fit Trainer's were like down air, neutral air, and maybe back air. I don't remember too well because I was too busy trying to learn her, lol.

Mega Man's I think were back air and neutral air; I couldn't figure out if the down air had any.

From what my brother told me Marth's were neutral air, back air, and (I think) down air.

My brother told me the ones for Little Mac, but I forgot.

From what this guy Ryan told me (he's essentially a Brawl guru, at one time was the best Fox in Brawl and was ranked 10th in NorCal Brawl, and knows A TON about Brawl and buffering and has hidden Brawl combos no one else knows, lol), Samus' are her Z-air, neutral air, back air, and maybe her forward air.

===

But to answer the thread's question, yes they did. Toon Link's back air, up air, and especially down air have less landing lag, and none of them have lagless landing.

Also, Fox's landing lag is significantly less in his up air. It is very similar to Melee; maybe even less (than without L-canceling).

inb4 Zipzo comes in here with some **** argument trying to convince us otherwise despite being proven WRONG on several accounts Anywhom, nice finds JohnKnight. Can't to see what the final version of Smash 4 gives us

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

inb4 Zipzo comes in here with some **** argument trying to convince us otherwise despite being proven WRONG on several accounts Anywhom, nice finds JohnKnight. Can't to see what the final version of Smash 4 gives us

Do you really have to start a fire in here?

Also what are you talking about being proven wrong? He has been arguing that landing lag can be a good thing and is necessary, and that he trusts Sakurai will appeal to all audiences (including Melee fans who like mobility and techs). Johnknight1 hasn't said anything contradictory to Zipzo's beliefs.

 

[IsmaR]

As @ Hong stated, the topic does not need any callouts/jabs at other users. If anyone is caught doing so, simply ignore/report them and continue discussing the topic. Failure to do so will result in this getting locked and infractions being handed out, accordingly.

 

[Mensrea]

I really hope landing lag is reduced. There is really no reason for it to be the way it was at the e3 demo. Smash looks faster than Brawl for sure, combo that with the higher hitstun, and it has some real potential. That landing lag though is going to just be a detractor and nothing more. There is no reason for it to be in the game, pls sakurai fix it.

 

[Hyperstorm]

It would be great if there were any actual changes since E3, but I doubt it.

 

[Dinoman96]

I see very little lag on Mario here. Was this present back in the E3 demo?

 

[mimgrim]

I see very little lag on Mario here. Was this present back in the E3 demo?

Yes.

 

[Bladeviper]

I really hope landing lag is reduced. There is really no reason for it to be the way it was at the e3 demo. Smash looks faster than Brawl for sure, combo that with the higher hitstun, and it has some real potential. That landing lag though is going to just be a detractor and nothing more. There is no reason for it to be in the game, pls sakurai fix it.

if the lag is used as a point of balance then it is needed. I see people saying robin has too much lag on his aerials, but if he does in fact have an air smash attack having low lag on a hit like that seems absurd and unbalanced.