Dev's hate Nintendo's Mascot

[Morbi]

I've always chosen Mario on most games where he's the balanced character, like on SM3DW, I just like how standard and familiar he feels to play, and Project M got him down perfectly!

Mario isn't low-tier on Project M, not at all. Mario is a great character in PM. Lots of fun though, I actually do play him more frequently, I wouldn't mind if they made some of those changes for Smash 4's version. It is as you stated, there is no reason that the beginners character has to suck.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Mario is really good in PM, if not too good. Top 10 material and he's REALLY annoying.

I still think Doc in Melee is my favorite "Mario" in Smash. 64 Mario is really fun and probably the most balanced too.

 

[D-idara]

Mario isn't low-tier on Project M, not at all. Mario is a great character in PM. Lots of fun though, I actually do play him more frequently, I wouldn't mind if they made some of those changes for Smash 4's version. It is as you stated, there is no reason that the beginners character has to suck.

By "They got him down" I meant that he's awesome on Project M, he feels like the Mario from the actual platformers.

 

[Spinosaurus]

By "They got him down" I meant that he's awesome on Project M, he feels like the Mario from the actual platformers.

He doesn't feel any different from Melee Mario to me

 

[Blue Warrior]

In any game Mario appears in, the character is intended to be the jack-of-all-trades in the cast, making him the standard of power for other characters to be measured by. This is why you generally see him close to the center of SSB64's and Melee's tier lists, and closer to the top in P:M's case. The fact that Brawl ruined a jack-of-all-trades' balance -- so badly that he lands into the bottom tier -- is a byproduct and testament to Brawl's already pathetic sense of game balance. Now that we've seen a little of what E3 has to offer in terms of balance changes, I think Mario will at least be better than the iteration that Brawl disgraced him with. No matter what, he's bound to benefit from SSB4's gameplay environment.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I believe the devs in fact really like Mario. That's why they aren't changing him much. They like how he plays already, and they want to make a game engine that isn't nonsense so that he functions better overall.

Mario is really juggle oriented in general, which the new game engine from what I'm hearing basically seems to favor a lot. So if anything, I'd say the devs like Mario's overall design for Smash.

There's a million and a half things I could tell them to fix in terms of QoL issues, but right now, the best thing Mario has to look forward to is the general physics changes, which alone will make him much more solid.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I don't just love Mario because he's the mascot of Nintendo, I love Mario because the Mario games are my favorite games, and it really pains me to see how he has been becoming progressively worse.

Dude...have you seen him in smash. 4? He has combos for days!

SH Uair > Bair > U-tilt > U-smash is a legit combo

SHFF Uair > U- tilt > Jab > Grab is a good set up.

Mario in my opinion is shaping up to be one of the best characters in this game so far. Combos, low landing lag, faster smash attacks and great aerial mobility. He's incredibly solid.

 

[Skyfox2000]

Considering Mario's appeared in every Smash Bros trailer, Yeah they really hate Mario!

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

It's not just competitive ability(FLUDD still looks bad. His character is still wrong!

Why does he sound like this...

..when he normally sound like this?

He had a lot more enthusiasm back then. Still Believe Charles Martinet could still give a decent faithful performance to Red M, but it still looks like Sakurai doesn't want that Mario. He wants his Mario, which SUCKS(IMO)!

 

[TMNTSSB4]

te="asia_catdog_blue, post: 17093729, member: 182646"]It's not just competitive ability(FLUDD still looks bad. His character is still wrong!

Why does he sound like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMAFlVVTJdM
..when he normally sound like this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa5OMqIKObI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRZQd8gDrhc


He had a lot more enthusiasm back then. Still Believe Charles Martinet could still give a decent faithful performance to Red M, but it still looks like Sakurai doesn't want that Mario. He wants his Mario, which SUCKS(IMO)! [/quote]
Actually Charles Martinet is losing his flaboo ot something because he's getting older, so unless they edit his voice to be a bit higher, get a new actor (please no), or use the voice clips from sunshine, we just have to accept it

 

[HugoBoss]

Just make sure he is NOTHING like his Brawl incarnation.....*shivers*

 

[GunGunW]

It seems I'm not the only one who wants Mario to actually be Mario and not Ryu.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

It seems I'm not the only one who wants Mario to actually be Mario and not Ryu.

Are you serious? Ryu is more lively than Red M's Brawl incarnation!

 

[Gidy]

Mario was my second in Brawl. He still had Up Airs for days.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

It seems I'm not the only one who wants Mario to actually be Mario and not Ryu.

HAAA....DOOOOOOKEN!!!!!

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate/unpopular opinion guy and say that I kinda prefer Maryu (my nickname for Smash Mario) to regular Mario from his own games.

I think Maryu actually portrays what Mario's character is often described as much better than his portrayals in the Mario games. Mario is often described as an "everyday guy who became a kind, benevolent, and loyal hero of Princess Peach and the Mushroom Kingdom". Thing is, in main series platformers and RPGs, he has literally NO character. Yeah, he has a jolly voice, but he has absolutely no agency, and he's just kinda there (this is why I consider Rosalina the real main character of Super Mario Galaxy despite not being the player character, since the actual story and plot elements focus on her much more than anyone else).

And then in a lot of the spin-offs and obscure games, Mario is often portrayed as a stuck up jerk or someone who cares too much about the spotlight.

So no, I don't think Maryu is "Sakurai forcing his version of Mario down our throats instead of the real Mario". Maryu is really just the Mario Nintendo has been DESCRIBING to us all along, but never giving us - just an everyday guy who, through a lot of hardwork and experience, became the hero of the Mushroom Kingdom, while still being fairly modest, while also a little goofy and fun loving.

Some might say he is overly serious in Smash, but his taunts are pretty comical, his new screen K.O is very goofy and hilarious, and he retains some cockiness (his Final Smash quote in particular). I feel like it's the version of Mario we SHOULD be getting.

 

[GunGunW]

I'm gonna be the devil's advocate/unpopular opinion guy and say that I kinda prefer Maryu (my nickname for Smash Mario) to regular Mario from his own games.

I think Maryu actually portrays what Mario's character is often described as much better than his portrayals in the Mario games. Mario is often described as an "everyday guy who became a kind, benevolent, and loyal hero of Princess Peach and the Mushroom Kingdom". Thing is, in main series platformers and RPGs, he has literally NO character. Yeah, he has a jolly voice, but he has absolutely no agency, and he's just kinda there (this is why I consider Rosalina the real main character of Super Mario Galaxy despite not being the player character, since the actual story and plot elements focus on her much more than anyone else).

And then in a lot of the spin-offs and obscure games, Mario is often portrayed as a stuck up jerk or someone who cares too much about the spotlight.

So no, I don't think Maryu is "Sakurai forcing his version of Mario down our throats instead of the real Mario". Maryu is really just the Mario Nintendo has been DESCRIBING to us all along, but never giving us - just an everyday guy who, through a lot of hardwork and experience, became the hero of the Mushroom Kingdom, while still being fairly modest, while also a little goofy and fun loving.

Some might say he is overly serious in Smash, but his taunts are pretty comical, his new screen K.O is very goofy and hilarious, and he retains some cockiness (his Final Smash quote in particular). I feel like it's the version of Mario we SHOULD be getting.

Mario is adorable. I just wish he would like he's having fun in Smash Bros, have a happy chipper voice, and maybe smile sometimes? That's the thing about Mario games is he's always having a blast!...

...and uh... I think saying Rosalina is the main character of Super Mario Galaxy is pushing it.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

(this is why I consider Rosalina the real main character of Super Mario Galaxy despite not being the player character, since the actual story and plot elements focus on her much more than anyone else).

And then in a lot of the spin-offs and obscure games, Mario is often portrayed as a stuck up jerk or someone who cares too much about the spotlight.

So no, I don't think Maryu is "Sakurai forcing his version of Mario down our throats instead of the real Mario". Maryu is really just the Mario Nintendo has been DESCRIBING to us all along, but never giving us - just an everyday guy who, through a lot of hardwork and experience, became the hero of the Mushroom Kingdom, while still being fairly modest, while also a little goofy and fun loving.

Some might say he is overly serious in Smash, but his taunts are pretty comical, his new screen K.O is very goofy and hilarious, and he retains some cockiness (his Final Smash quote in particular). I feel like it's the version of Mario we SHOULD be getting.

Though I do agree at some degree That Mario really doesn't have much character and is instead just a goofy person getting into messes, Mario's the main character of Super Mario. The title is literally showing that it is his game. That's like saying Peach was the main character of Super Mario 64.

 

[ChikoLad]

Though I do agree at some degree That Mario really doesn't have much character and is instead just a goofy person getting into messes, Mario's the main character of Super Mario. The title is literally showing that it is his game. That's like saying Peach was the main character of Super Mario 64.

Except Peach didn't really do anything in Super Mario 64 and the game didn't have much story elements ("petch has cake for mayro....BUT BOOZER KIDNAP PETCH. Mayro must save petch to get cake"). Super Mario Galaxy may have Mario be the player character (since you play as him), and the titular character (since his name is in the title), but a "main character" refers to literary elements, and is defined as the one who is focused on in terms of story and character developments, hence, Rosalina is the "main character" of Super Mario Galaxy, since the story and character developments within the game are about her, 99% of the time.

With that same logic, Super Mario 64 doesn't exactly have a main character. Saying that the "main character" is the same as the titular or player character is flawed, since a lot of games have those things contradict each other (for example, "Super Mario 3D World" has Mario's name in the title, but you can play through the entire game without ever playing as him, if you want).

 

[GunGunW]

Except Peach didn't really do anything in Super Mario 64 and the game didn't have much story elements ("petch has cake for mayro....BUT BOOZER KIDNAP PETCH. Mayro must save petch to get cake"). Super Mario Galaxy may have Mario be the player character (since you play as him), and the titular character (since his name is in the title), but a "main character" refers to literary elements, and is defined as the one who is focused on in terms of story and character developments, hence, Rosalina is the "main character" of Super Mario Galaxy, since the story and character developments within the game are about her, 99% of the time.

With that same logic, Super Mario 64 doesn't exactly have a main character. Saying that the "main character" is the same as the titular or player character is flawed, since a lot of games have those things contradict each other (for example, "Super Mario 3D World" has Mario's name in the title, but you can play through the entire game without ever playing as him, if you want).

Rosalina wasn't even involved in the majoirty of the action of the game. It was mostly just Mario going through the galaxies, fighting Bowser and Bowser Jr. her story was just icing on the cake.

 

[ChikoLad]

Rosalina wasn't even involved in the majoirty of the action of the game. It was mostly just Mario going through the galaxies, fighting Bowser and Bowser Jr. her story was just icing on the cake.

No, she was much more involved than that:

-Guided Mario throughout the game. Think of her as a commander, and Mario a soldier.
-Gave Mario the spin ability by letting a Luma accompany him, which was vital for him to actually make any progress.
-Bowser's plans revolved around Power Stars that belonged to Rosalina, and fueled the Comet Observatory. As a result, the home of Rosalina and many Lumas was left in a non-functioning state because of him. She had much more stake in things than Mario did (his girlfriend was missing, nothing more).
-She alone blasts through Bowser's fleet using her Comet Observatory's "Comet" state.
-She's responsible for overseeing the universe reboot at the end of the game.
-She talks about a number of things in relation to herself and the Lumas over the course of the game (such as explaining that she has lived for centuries).
-She had an entire back story segment in the game.
-The true ending of the game (120 Star Ending) involves only her. Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, the Toads...they are not anywhere to be seen. In said ending, she breaks the fourth wall and personally thanks the player (which implies that Mario himself is an irrelevant presence in the game's plot - since you can play through the same story as Luigi, and she is thanking the player for helping her, not the characters. It implies that the player's presence is much more important than Mario's).

She's the only character in the entire game with any sort of agency, and the plot revolves around her, not Mario. Mario is, by comparison, an extra in the plot. His only interest is to save Peach. Helping/listening to Rosalina just so happens to be the only way he can do that. Though this role can be switched out for Luigi anyway (yes, you have to beat the game as Mario first, but it's the same plot either way, with the only change being that a second Luigi exists). Rosalina's role, however, is the bulk of the game's plot elements, and is not replaceable. She is the main character of the game.

 

[GunGunW]

No, she was much more involved than that:

-Guided Mario throughout the game. Think of her as a commander, and Mario a soldier.
-Gave Mario the spin ability by letting a Luma accompany him, which was vital for him to actually make any progress.
-Bowser's plans revolved around Power Stars that belonged to Rosalina, and fueled the Comet Observatory. As a result, the home of Rosalina and many Lumas was left in a non-functioning state because of him. She had much more stake in things than Mario did (his girlfriend was missing, nothing more).
-She alone blasts through Bowser's fleet using her Comet Observatory's "Comet" state.
-She's responsible for overseeing the universe reboot at the end of the game.
-She talks about a number of things in relation to herself and the Lumas over the course of the game (such as explaining that she has lived for centuries).
-She had an entire back story segment in the game.
-The true ending of the game (120 Star Ending) involves only her. Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, the Toads...they are not anywhere to be seen. In said ending, she breaks the fourth wall and personally thanks the player (which implies that Mario himself is an irrelevant presence in the game's plot - since you can play through the same story as Luigi, and she is thanking the player for helping her, not the characters. It implies that the player's presence is much more important than Mario's).

She's the only character in the entire game with any sort of agency, and the plot revolves around her, not Mario. Mario is, by comparison, an extra in the plot. His only interest is to save Peach. Helping/listening to Rosalina just so happens to be the only way he can do that. Though this role can be switched out for Luigi anyway (yes, you have to beat the game as Mario first, but it's the same plot either way, with the only change being that a second Luigi exists). Rosalina's role, however, is the bulk of the game's plot elements, and is not replaceable. She is the main character of the game.

You described more how she's over powered rather than how she's the main character of the game.

 

[ChikoLad]

You described more how she's over powered rather than how she's the main character of the game.

...What kind of response is that? I described a number of her contributions and roles in the story. Nothing to do with her being overpowered (which is subjective).

The story undeniably had more to do with her than anyone else, and it's why a lot of people are fond of Galaxy and Rosalina herself to begin with.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

...What kind of response is that? I described a number of her contributions and roles in the story. Nothing to do with her being overpowered (which is subjective).

The story undeniably had more to do with her than anyone else, and it's why a lot of people are fond of Galaxy and Rosalina herself to begin with.

She contributed to the story, and that's that. I understand where you're coming from but she's not directly involved with any kind of action in the game itself. She contributes to the main character (Mario), by giving him direction. She derives from the central plot and is key to the plot. But that doesn't make her the main character. The main character doesn't have to have much of a personality at all to qualify as a main character, and there's many stories, movies, and games that contribute to that argument.

And Peach didn't do a thing in Super Mario 64.... except give Mario direction. If I'm not mistaken, that's what Rosalina did too.

 

[ChikoLad]

She contributed to the story, and that's that. I understand where you're coming from but she's not directly involved with any kind of action in the game itself. She contributes to the main character (Mario), by giving him direction. She derives from the central plot and is key to the plot. But that doesn't make her the main character. The main character doesn't have to have much of a personality at all to qualify as a main character, and there's many stories, movies, and games that contribute to that argument.

And Peach didn't do a thing in Super Mario 64.... except give Mario direction. If I'm not mistaken, that's what Rosalina did too.

You basically ignored every single point I made and moved back to square one.

As I already said, she did a lot more than just direct Mario. And saying a character is the main character just because they are playable or in the title doesn't work, as Super Mario 3D World points out.

A main character is the focus of the story elements and character developments. Mario doesn't have any significant focus on the story segments. He's just a vessel for the player to experience Rosalina's story and developments. An avatar.

And Peach doesn't even direct Mario in 64, she just invites him over, and the kidnapping happens by coincidence by the time he arrives.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

You basically ignored every single point I made and moved back to square one.

As I already said, she did a lot more than just direct Mario. And saying a character is the main character just because they are playable or in the title doesn't work, as Super Mario 3D World points out.

A main character is the focus of the story elements and character developments. Mario doesn't have any significant focus on the story segments. He's just a vessel for the player to experience Rosalina's story and developments. An avatar.

And Peach doesn't even direct Mario in 64, she just invites him over, and the kidnapping happens by coincidence by the time he arrives.

Thus directing Mario into the story itself to save her. It's still directing even if she didn't intend it to be in that way. I miss that game lol

But is see what you're saying. It can definitely be argued, as you are now. However, what I was trying to get at is she plays the same role as Peach from Mario 64, in which she becomes apart of the plot. The story in 64 was all about helping Peach as it is with Rosalina in Galaxy. It's a story about Mario's adventures and helping other significant characters. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Is Rosalina A main character? Yes.
Is Rosalina THE main character? No.

 

[ChikoLad]

Thus directing Mario into the story itself to save her. It's still directing even if she didn't intend it to be in that way. I miss that game lol

But is see what you're saying. It can definitely be argued, as you are now. However, what I was trying to get at is she plays the same role as Peach from Mario 64, in which she becomes apart of the plot. The story in 64 was all about helping Peach as it is with Rosalina in Galaxy. It's a story about Mario's adventures and helping other significant characters. That's what I'm trying to get at.

Is Rosalina A main character? Yes.
Is Rosalina THE main character? No.

No, it's not the same.

In Super Mario 64, Peach is barely an entity. She invites you over and you save her. Nothing more.

In Super Mario Galaxy, you help Rosalina, she helps you, she has an entire backstory in her storybook (something Mario is not a part of), and even outside of that, she has a lot of moments where she divulges information about herself and the cosmos, she has the most important roles in the plot, she is the focus of an implied crush (Luigi has an implied crush on her), her Observatory's power is the main factor in Bowser's plot (gives him the power to try and create a new universe), and she's also the only character (besides the Luma in her storybook) who is clearly written with agency and an intent to stir up strong emotions.

Mario retrieves Power Stars in mostly arbitrary and non-story related manners, and stares at people as they talk to him.

Rosalina is the main character of the story that is Super Mario Galaxy. The story distinctly goes out of it's way to focus on her, and she has the mos development.

Mario is the titular character, and the player character. The three terms are not inherently linked.

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

No, it's not the same.

In Super Mario 64, Peach is barely an entity. She invites you over and you save her. Nothing more.

In Super Mario Galaxy, you help Rosalina, she helps you, she has an entire backstory in her storybook (something Mario is not a part of), and even outside of that, she has a lot of moments where she divulges information about herself and the cosmos, she has the most important roles in the plot, she is the focus of an implied crush (Luigi has an implied crush on her), her Observatory's power is the main factor in Bowser's plot (gives him the power to try and create a new universe), and she's also the only character (besides the Luma in her storybook) who is clearly written with agency and an intent to stir up strong emotions.

Mario retrieves Power Stars in mostly arbitrary and non-story related manners, and stares at people as they talk to him.

Rosalina is the main character of the story that is Super Mario Galaxy. The story distinctly goes out of it's way to focus on her, and she has the mos development.

Mario is the titular character, and the player character. The three terms are not inherently linked.

You're missing one important factor. You're focusing the attention all on Rosalina and though what you said about her character development IS true, Mario's the one that directly takes on and drives the conflict.

Characters in a story are allowed development, and the best stories try to make all characters almost as significant as the main character by giving them backgrounds and roles. However, they don't have to have backgrounds. But, If Rosalina didn't have a background story and neat dialogue the game would just be all stars and lights... And Mario. Rosalina is a very divine looking character. She looks like a god. Having no background or dialogue for her would make absolutely no sense (or just pure laziness).

Oddly enough, the main character of a story does not need that kind of character development to actually be the protagonist. As long as there's a Protagonist / Conflict / Antagonist you got yourself a story. Like I've said, there are many stories that contain characters with more backgrounds and information and even personality than the main character.

They were simply trying to avoid another Super Mario 64 with Rosalina.

 

[ChikoLad]

You're missing one important factor. You're focusing the attention all on Rosalina and though what you said about her character development IS true, Mario's the one that directly takes on and drives the conflict.

Characters in a story are allowed development, and the best stories try to make all characters almost as significant as the main character by giving them backgrounds and roles. However, they don't have to have backgrounds. But, If Rosalina didn't have a background story and neat dialogue the game would just be all stars and lights... And Mario. Rosalina is a very divine looking character. She looks like a god. Having no background or dialogue for her would make absolutely no sense (or just pure laziness).

Oddly enough, the main character of a story does not need that kind of character development to actually be the protagonist. As long as there's a Protagonist / Conflict / Antagonist you got yourself a story. Like I've said, there are many stories that contain characters with more backgrounds and information and even personality than the main character.

They were simply trying to avoid another Super Mario 64 with Rosalina.

But Rosalina is just as much a part of the conflict as Mario, if not more so.

If Bowser were a god, the game would essentially be a war between gods.

At the end of the day, Mario was fighting for Peach. Rosalina was fighting for the fate of the universe.

Mario doesn't drive the conflict. Again, Rosalina and her Observatory is the literal cause of it. It would not have happened in the way it did without her existence. However, it DOES happen without Mario's existence in the Luigi playthrough.

 

[Curious Villager]

Hm? When is Mario portrayed as a jerk in the spin off's? In the Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario games in particularly he's always there for Luigi and others and helps them out whenever their in trouble. He was very grateful for Luigi when he saved him in Luigi's Mansion 2. And in the Kart, Party, Sports games all the characters more less are up for all sorts of crazy antics and everything (from those that I've played at least).

I always kinda viewed Mario as the big brother who always keeps his head up high and tries to help out those in need. Has a very brotherly relationship with Luigi, sometimes teases him but comforts him whenever he's upset showing that they really care about each other, especially as shown in the Mario & Luigi games.

I don't know, but I kinda feel some people pose Mario a bit too much onto a negative light sometimes imo..... :/

As for Smash, I do agree that Mario seems to be getting some of his brighter personality removed that he is known for in the Mario series, or at least when it comes to the way he is designed since Brawl. I would like to see him smile more often and be a bit more expressive which he seems to be getting some more of lately at least.

Now this is a bit more like the Mario I remember. c:

 

[ChikoLad]

Hm? When is Mario portrayed as a jerk in the spin off's? In the Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario games in particularly he's always there for Luigi and others and helps them out whenever their in trouble. He was very grateful for Luigi when he saved him in Luigi's Mansion 2. And in the Kart, Party, Sports games all the characters more less are up for all sorts of crazy antics and everything (from those that I've played at least).

I always kinda viewed Mario as the big brother who always keeps his head up high and tries to help out those in need. Has a very brotherly relationship with Luigi, sometimes teases him but comforts him whenever he's upset showing that they really care about each other, especially as shown in the Mario & Luigi games.

These videos basically some it all up:

 

[Curious Villager]

These videos basically some it all up:

Is this more of these "Mario is an animal abuser" type videos I see around because he fights various enemies who are usually out to kill him first? I've seen plenty of these before, most of which can also be applied towards Luigi, Link, the Pokemon Trainers etc but yet somehow people usually tend to apply it towards Mario......

In fact this defense I've read sums it up perfectly.

-stomps on koopa’s and goombas

And Link kills Octoroks! Samus kills Metroids!! Oh god Fox kills the Andross army!! NESS BEATS HIPPIES!! FALCON CAN KILL ALL HIS OPPONENTS IN A RACE!! KIRBY SWALLOWS HIS ENEMIES ALIVE!! AAAHH!! And did I mention they’re… gameplay elements?? Don’t take videogame logic seriously, and if you do, don’t think Mario would do violence just for fun. He’s doing it to save the Mushroom Kingdom!

Besides… you could try playing the game without stomping any enemies… Super Pacifist Mario Bros??

 

[ChikoLad]

Is this more of these "Mario is an animal abuser" type videos I see around because he fights various enemies who are usually out to kill him first? I've seen plenty of these before, most of which can also be applied towards Luigi, Link, the Pokemon Trainers etc but yet somehow people usually tend to apply it towards Mario.....

I guess this defense page sums up most of that stuff.

Particulalry this one:

No, this one highlights some more canon pieces of trivia that are overlooked by many.

For instance, you know how Donkey Kong kidnaps Pauline in the original Donkey Kong, and Mario, the "hero", has to save her?

Well, there is actually a prequel game on the Game & Watch, where you play as Donkey Kong, where he is being tamed by Mario as a circus monkey. However, it actually involves Mario throwing dangerous objects at Donkey Kong to make him juggle them, and he whips Donkey Kong in the process. Donkey Kong is clearly unwilling and afraid, and Mario has the nerve to laugh at him when he messes up and hurts himself. It can only be assumed that Donkey Kong eventually had enough and took off, hence, leading to the events of the classic Donkey Kong game everyone knows.

In fact, the Donkey Kong saga (including the more recent "Mario VS Donkey Kong" games) highlight a good number of Mario's bad traits.

Mario is just a character with more definite bad traits than good ones, to me. When he's portrayed as "good", it's only because he's a completely blank slate and he just so happens to be the main player character. Mario himself does not have agency, because we do not get insight into how he thinks.

However, many of the Donkey Kong saga games and Sports games give him some agency, and he's not a very nice guy in them.

 

[Curious Villager]

No, this one highlights some more canon pieces of trivia that are overlooked by many.

For instance, you know how Donkey Kong kidnaps Pauline in the original Donkey Kong, and Mario, the "hero", has to save her?

Well, there is actually a prequel game on the Game & Watch, where you play as Donkey Kong, where he is being tamed by Mario as a circus monkey. However, it actually involves Mario throwing dangerous objects at Donkey Kong to make him juggle them, and he whips Donkey Kong in the process. Donkey Kong is clearly unwilling and afraid, and Mario has the nerve to laugh at him when he messes up and hurts himself. It can only be assumed that Donkey Kong eventually had enough and took off, hence, leading to the events of the classic Donkey Kong game everyone knows.

In fact, the Donkey Kong saga (including the more recent "Mario VS Donkey Kong" games) highlight a good number of Mario's bad traits.

Mario is just a character with more definite bad traits than good ones, to me. When he's portrayed as "good", it's only because he's a completely blank slate and he just so happens to be the main player character. Mario himself does not have agency, because we do not get insight into how he thinks.

However, many of the Donkey Kong saga games and Sports games give him some agency, and he's not a very nice guy in them.

Oh I see, so this has more to do with Mario's relationship with Donkey Kong rather than then the Mario series as a whole, because with most of those it can really be applied towards most Nintendo characters as I've pointed out.

I guess I can see where you would be coming from with that. Although as of the Mario vs Donkey Kong games, Mario and DK seem to have gone onto better terms as of Minis on the Move. (or at least with Modern DK as they both work together along with Pauline at the Minis toy factory from what I've heard atleast) But I guess I'm getting a better understanding of where you're coming from though.

 

[ChikoLad]

So this has more to do with Mario's relationship with Donkey Kong rather than then the Mario series as a whole, because with most of those it can really be applied towards most Nintendo characters as I've pointed out.

No, because as long as it's canon, it's reflective of the character in the series as a whole. And it's not just Donkey Kong he has abused or disrespected, and not just animals. Those are terrible things regardless, and no hero figure should do it. Heroes don't torture enemies, let alone innocent apes, and tend to avoid inflicting serious pain on their enemies unless blinded by rage. This is especially true in a child friendly series. Sonic, for example, would not think to torture even Eggman.

Just watch the videos if you really want to get where I'm coming from. While you may not agree on everything, some things are undeniable.

 

[Curious Villager]

No, because as long as it's canon, it's reflective of the character in the series as a whole. And it's not just Donkey Kong he has abused or disrespected, and not just animals. Those are terrible things regardless, and no hero figure should do it. Heroes don't torture enemies, let alone innocent apes, and tend to avoid inflicting serious pain on their enemies unless blinded by rage. This is especially true in a child friendly series. Sonic, for example, would not think to torture even Eggman.

Just watch the videos if you really want to get where I'm coming from. While you may not agree on everything, some things are undeniable.

Who else has he abused?

At least with (the original) Donkey Kong I can understand. However, with characters like Bowser and his army, it's usually them who try to kill Mario first so he's acting out of self defense, so it's not really any different to most Nintendo characters.

Mario and Pauline used to be love interests together, however after Nintendo decided to turn Mario from a carpenter into an italian plumber with a new love interest in Peach, they are now considered close friends. Implying they just moved on from their relationship and Pauline seems to have taken it rather well instead of being miserable over it. And I've already pointed out that Mario does care a lot about Luigi as pointed out in the Mario & Luigi games and Luigi's Mansion 2. Mario is also best friends with Yoshi, who both helped each other during their times of need (during Mario's baby days and when Bowser kidnapped Yoshi's friends and trapped them in egg's).

 

[ChikoLad]

Who else has he abused?

At least with (the original) Donkey Kong I can understand. However, with characters like Bowser and his army, it's usually them who try to kill Mario first so he's acting out of self defense, so it's not really any different to Link who tries to save Hyrule by beating Ganon while slaying his army of Octorocks and Moblins who are out to kill him first along the way. (actually that's way more different now that I think about it, because Link actually does slay Ganon whereas Mario just beats Bowser but never actually kills him hence why he always comes back)

Mario and Pauline used to be love interests together, however after Nintendo decided to turn Mario from a carpenter into an italian plumber with a new love interest in Peach, they are now considered close friends. Implying they just moved on from their relationship and Pauline seems to have taken it rather well instead of being miserable over it. And I've already pointed out that Mario does care a lot about Luigi as pointed out in the Mario & Luigi games and Luigi's Mansion 2. Mario is also best friends with Yoshi, who both helped each other during their times of need (during Mario's baby days and when Bowser kidnapped Yoshi's friends and trapped them in egg's).

The videos pretty much answer these questions, so again, just watch them instead of repeatedly asking questions they answer.

 

[Curious Villager]

I would watch the whole thing had I not seen the part where he moans about Mario stomping on "innocent" Wigglers which is exactly what I was talking about....

Anyway, I watched the other video and at around 5:18 is the guy implying that the Mario franchise actually has a timeline or that the series as a whole has some canon storyline going on? This is why they don't give it a set "canon" or "timeline" or anything because everything would just be a jumbled mess. The Mario franchise storyline really goes like how most of the earlier cartoons such as the Simpsons and Popeye are like. The series as a whole doesn't really have a set timeline or canon going on and just bring up a new story as they go along. Hence why the cast never ages (and Cranky Kong somehow does).

 

[ChikoLad]

I would watch the whole thing had I not seen the part where he moans about Mario stomping on "innocent" Wigglers which is exactly what I was talking about....

Anyway, I watched the other video and at around 5:18 is the guy implying that the Mario franchise actually has a timeline or that the series as a whole has some canon storyline going on? This is why they don't give it a set "canon" or "timeline" or anything because everything would just be a jumbled mess. The Mario franchise storyline really goes like how most of the earlier cartoons such as the Simpsons and Popeye are like. The series as a whole doesn't really have a set timeline or canon going on and just bring up a new story as they go along. Hence why the cast never ages (and Cranky Kong somehow does).

Right, but that doesn't mean you dismiss characterisation in each game, and there are certain definable areas of Mario canon, like:

-The entire Donkey Kong saga (including the Mario VS Donkey Kong games)
-The Super Mario Galaxy games, with Super Mario 3D World having a distinct relation to those games (Rosalina, Lumas, and the Observatory show up, which hasn't happened in any other canon game)
-Super Mario Sunshine and the Luigi's Mansion games have defined links to each other

There are probably more instances, but I cannot remember off the top of my head. In any case, there is a clear canon, even if it feels incomplete right now. Every game isn't just a complete reboot.

 

[Curious Villager]

Right, but that doesn't mean you dismiss characterisation in each game, and there are certain definable areas of Mario canon, like:

-The entire Donkey Kong saga (including the Mario VS Donkey Kong games)
-The Super Mario Galaxy games, with Super Mario 3D World having a distinct relation to those games (Rosalina, Lumas, and the Observatory show up, which hasn't happened in any other canon game)
-Super Mario Sunshine and the Luigi's Mansion games have defined links to each other

There are probably more instances, but I cannot remember off the top of my head. In any case, there is a clear canon, even if it feels incomplete right now. Every game isn't just a complete reboot.

Yeah that is true. At least certain games could be set together as a set saga. However not all games are necessarily linked together (such as the Paper Mario and Doctor Mario series which apparently aren't connected to the Mario saga at all from what I've heard) and there are things that have been denied from the creators themselves now (such as the Koopalings no longer being Bowsers children which causes some koopalings fans to become quite salty over it but oh well.).

I'm not sure if the Donkey Kong, Mario Bros and Super Mario Land saga's are currently connected to the mainline Mario game's either. I think I would probably need to do a bit more research on that.