Detailled Chaingrab Information

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,688
#1
So I was searching for exact percentages when to Pivot so Spacies can't shine out when I realized there was no Topic compiling all information about chain grabbing.
At least I never saw one and also I couldn't find one using search.
(if I missed something - shame on me - then just close this topic and maybe stick the other one)

All I remember is that M2K post everyone's quoting for ages:

0-6 you can F Throw without them falling over, but unless they don't DI into you, they can either jab/sidestep/shine you before you regrab them

you can CG fox at 0, so do that usually, CG to 16, and after 16 look for forward DI; if they DI forward above 16% then you have to either walk forward or dash forward in order to regrab them

If you're lazy like Husband, or even me sometimes, you can up tilt after 16% to get guaranteed damage + a possible tech chase, (often with a dash attack where they land cuz they often won't tech)

or you can just down throw F smash tipper them randomly and they usually wont tech

16+ for forward DI
20+ for no DI
28+ for back DI

for up tilts, start them at about 30% or really really close to 30%, is usually best.

If they don't DI, reverse up tilt is recommended usually cuz it's harder for them to DI out of

if they DI forward above 35%, you need to walk forward in order to up tilt them again

35%+ for forward DI
50%+ for back DI

After up tilts, you can either regrab them or do an uair, react properly to the situation

for up throw F smash, 60% is the best time to do it, but 50 and 70 work too, as well as various other %s

if they don't DI at 60%, walk forward slightly, and reverse C-stick F smash tipper them

There are tons more things than what I'm telling you now, however these are the basics that you should all master

FOR FALCO, the %s for no DI are 25%, back DI 31%

for up tilts 42% forward DI 54% back DI

and if falco DIs back at 0% you cant regrab him he will land first
Sadly there is not everything mentioned in that post and iirc Strong Bad lately proved some of those percentages to be wrong.
So basically I think it's about time to collect all information in one topic and make some sort of guide out of it.
What we need is:

1. % window for when to Utilt

2. % window where you can tip Fsmash (no DI)

2. % where spacies can shine out (with and without pivot grab)

3. earliest % when we're able to Pivot Grab

4. Differences between PAL and NTSC? (Fox is lighter Falco is heavier in PAL - http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight )

5. When does the chain grab end (no DI; full DI left/right)

6. % where do you need to walk in order to regrab

7. When can you regrab Falco if he's DIing back (0% doesn't work)

I'm going to collect all the information and make some sort of guide out of it, so please provide everything you know about chain grabbing related stuff.

Edit:

1. 32-36 for utilt->grab. 36-52 leads to more utilts or uairs. 36-44 requires single step utilt, 44-52 needs 2 steps. I don't recommend 2 step utilts because when they DI behind there isn't a good followup.

2. You can tip as low as 38-42 with single step reverse fsmash. Key mixup to keep them honest with utilt DIs. On side DIs, low 60s is ideal. But unless they DI toward the edge, there are much better combo options to keep the chain going...if they DI the fsmash, you usually won't get any follow up and they'll stay at ~80% for ages.

2 (#2). They cannot shine out if you are correctly pivot grabbing. If you do not pivot grab, they can shine out as early as 16%. All you have to do prior to 16% is stand & grab on neutral/away DI or turn around on DI behinds.

3. Start pivot grabbing at 16%.

4. Dunno

5. Well if they don't jump you can go until like 50 lol. But effectively, you should look to end your chain grab and utilt at 32-36.

6. 16%.

7. 6%.

^^^
I listed Fox numbers for all answers (except #7). Add 8% for Falco, as a rule.

____________________________________

Characters you can chain grab:

Fox - Weight: 75 (NTSC); 73 (PAL)
Falco - Weight: 80 (NTSC); 83 (PAL)

Chain grab starts:

Fox - 0% (all DI)
Falco - 0% (Forward and no DI), x% (1? - back DI)

_____________________________________


So I just tested at what % Marth is not able to regrab the spacies if they don't DI (so you have to Pivot Grab in order to get them)

Fox: 26%-30%
Falco: 26%-29%

Tho the timing is really strict. I was only able to get the regrab at 31% (Fox) and 30% (Falco) once.

Keep in mind that I didn't test this with AR so it might isn't 100% accurate.
Also keep in mind this is PAL.

I don't know where the differences between Fox and Falco come from.
It could be a) weight or b) body center/hurtbox

If b) is right the numbers probably are the same in PAL and NTSC.
 
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#3
1. % window for when to Utilt

2. % window where you can tip Fsmash (no DI)

2. % where spacies can shine out (with and without pivot grab)

3. earliest % when we're able to Pivot Grab

4. Differences between PAL and NTSC? (Fox is lighter Falco is heavier in PAL - http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Weight )

5. When does the chain grab end (no DI; full DI left/right)

6. % where do you need to walk in order to regrab

7. When can you regrab Falco if he's DIing back (0% doesn't work)

1. 32-36 for utilt->grab. 36-52 leads to more utilts or uairs. 36-44 requires single step utilt, 44-52 needs 2 steps. I don't recommend 2 step utilts because when they DI behind there isn't a good followup.

2. You can tip as low as 38-42 with single step reverse fsmash. Key mixup to keep them honest with utilt DIs. On side DIs, low 60s is ideal. But unless they DI toward the edge, there are much better combo options to keep the chain going...if they DI the fsmash, you usually won't get any follow up and they'll stay at ~80% for ages.

2 (#2). They cannot shine out if you are correctly pivot grabbing. If you do not pivot grab, they can shine out as early as 16%. All you have to do prior to 16% is stand & grab on neutral/away DI or turn around on DI behinds.

3. Start pivot grabbing at 16%.

4. Dunno

5. Well if they don't jump you can go until like 50 lol. But effectively, you should look to end your chain grab and utilt at 32-36.

6. 16%.

7. 6%.

^^^
I listed Fox numbers for all answers (except #7). Add 8% for Falco, as a rule.
 
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#4
I've always added 10% for falco and 20% for captain falcon (yes, you can uthrow regrab captain falcon and I've never seen anybody but me do it.)

Just hop into training mode on FD and set that dude to evade and CG for hours.
 

t-iceman

Smash Journeyman
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#5
I've always added 10% for falco and 20% for captain falcon (yes, you can uthrow regrab captain falcon and I've never seen anybody but me do it.)

Just hop into training mode on FD and set that dude to evade and CG for hours.
up throw regrab is not guaranteed on falcon he can jump out. You can do the falco regrab on behind di once you get him to 3-4% and then upthrow it requires pretty precise timing though.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,688
#6
So I just tested at what % Marth is not able to regrab the spacies if they don't DI (so you have to Pivot Grab in order to get them)

Fox: 26%-30%
Falco: 26%-29%

Tho the timing is really strict. I was only able to get the regrab at 31% (Fox) and 30% (Falco) once.

Keep in mind that I didn't test this with AR so it might isn't 100% accurate.
Also keep in mind this is PAL.

I don't know where the differences between Fox and Falco come from.
It could be a) weight or b) body center/hurtbox

If b) is right the numbers probably are the same in PAL and NTSC.
 
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#7
So I just tested at what % Marth is not able to regrab the spacies if they don't DI (so you have to Pivot Grab in order to get them)

Fox: 26%-30%
Falco: 26%-29%

Tho the timing is really strict. I was only able to get the regrab at 31% (Fox) and 30% (Falco) once.

Keep in mind that I didn't test this with AR so it might isn't 100% accurate.
Also keep in mind this is PAL.

I don't know where the differences between Fox and Falco come from.
It could be a) weight or b) body center/hurtbox

If b) is right the numbers probably are the same in PAL and NTSC.
Well you CAN just stand there and regrab but at 16 you should really pivot grab because any competent spacie is mashing shine on that neutral DI

Kinda like how you CAN chaingrab Falcon but you should never really try it cause you're just gonna get punished lol
 
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#8
Well you CAN just stand there and regrab but at 16 you should really pivot grab because any competent spacie is mashing shine on that neutral DI

Kinda like how you CAN chaingrab Falcon but you should never really try it cause you're just gonna get punished lol
How do you get punished? I never get punished for it.
 

Van.

Smash Ace
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#12
...is nobody going to react strongly to the fact that someone claimed the spacies can jump out at 26%? doesn't that kind of, maybe, completely revolutionize the matchup a little bit?

can anyone confirm or disprove it?
 

MT_

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#15
I think it's important to specify if we are talking about the percentage before or after the throw.

In any case I am testing (without TAS) and I am pretty confident that you are required to start pivot grabbing Fox on neutral DI once your throw has put him at 24% or higher. I was able to regrab Fox on neutral DI when he was put at 23% but unable to at 24%. Keep in mind that for percentages of about 16% all the way to 23%, you have to time your grab a little precisely (you can't just grab as soon as possible, you have to let Fox drop a little bit depending on what percent he's at) to get the regrab on neutral DI. This is something I just discovered while testing and I think this small timing requirement is a big part in why a lot of people have different percentages in their head when they think that you can't simply regrab neutral DI. I used to think that it was at 21% but I realized just now that I was simply grabbing too early so you can actually regrab to 23%...

In any case, between this 16-23% range, I think there are two things that are important.
1) At lower percents, the timing for which you place your grab is a lot EASIER because the window in which Fox cannot get regrabbed (he is too high) is smaller due to being at lower percents, and thus not flying as high from uthrow.
2) At higher percents, pivot grabs are EASIER because you have MORE TIME (thus more room for error; do a longer dashdance etc) in which you can execute your pivot. But I believe like TheCrimsonBlur said that pivot grab is possible in percent range. It is just more difficult to do it at lower percents.


EDIT: Something interesting I have been messing with: Apparently if you **** up your pivot grab, a dash grab will also get the regrab off on Fox from 25-40ish percent. I'm not sure if this comes out before shine though.
 

knightpraetor

Smash Champion
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Messages
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#16
are people really saying i have to start pivoting at 16%? i've never started pivoting until 20% for fox and like 25% for falco...can they really shine out even if you time the grab correctly? I've definitely heard other decent players tell me differently, so how exactly was this tested?
 
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#17
I think it's important to specify if we are talking about the percentage before or after the throw.

In any case I am testing (without TAS) and I am pretty confident that you are required to start pivot grabbing Fox on neutral DI once your throw has put him at 24% or higher. I was able to regrab Fox on neutral DI when he was put at 23% but unable to at 24%. Keep in mind that for percentages of about 16% all the way to 23%, you have to time your grab a little precisely (you can't just grab as soon as possible, you have to let Fox drop a little bit depending on what percent he's at) to get the regrab on neutral DI. This is something I just discovered while testing and I think this small timing requirement is a big part in why a lot of people have different percentages in their head when they think that you can't simply regrab neutral DI. I used to think that it was at 21% but I realized just now that I was simply grabbing too early so you can actually regrab to 23%...

In any case, between this 16-23% range, I think there are two things that are important.
1) At lower percents, the timing for which you place your grab is a lot EASIER because the window in which Fox cannot get regrabbed (he is too high) is smaller due to being at lower percents, and thus not flying as high from uthrow.
2) At higher percents, pivot grabs are EASIER because you have MORE TIME (thus more room for error; do a longer dashdance etc) in which you can execute your pivot. But I believe like TheCrimsonBlur said that pivot grab is possible in percent range. It is just more difficult to do it at lower percents.


EDIT: Something interesting I have been messing with: Apparently if you **** up your pivot grab, a dash grab will also get the regrab off on Fox from 25-40ish percent. I'm not sure if this comes out before shine though.
Well, if they don't DI at all you can keep grabbing them for like...ever technically, but the timing gets strange. You have to time your grab until they are just touching your head I believe. Been a while since I actually sat there and looked at it because that is almost never going to happen.

I would think so. The point of the pivot grab is not to beat shine but to outspace it. If you are sliding forward it sounds like you'd get hit.

are people really saying i have to start pivoting at 16%? i've never started pivoting until 20% for fox and like 25% for falco...can they really shine out even if you time the grab correctly? I've definitely heard other decent players tell me differently, so how exactly was this tested?
In all actuality it depends on the fox you are playing. If he's not trying to shine out that early you can cg him like normal till that 20% you feel comfortable with (Most are trying to DI and not shine). To be honest, I didn't know it was 16% either. I've always heard that it was 19%, what I'm curious about is mash out speed. For example, how many pummels can you get off before they can break out once they are at 16%? Even one would get you into a more comfy percent range to pivot should you need to.
 
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#18
Fox can virtually shine you out from 16%, that's for sure. So pivot-grab is required from 16% onward.
Just decide to rather pummel or not to get the percentage that fits better in a given case.
I often don't pummel 'til at least 20ish 'cause it would give time to the Fox to slightly DI behind me and shine out.
 

SwiftBass

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#19
what I'm curious about is mash out speed. For example, how many pummels can you get off before they can break out once they are at 16%? Even one would get you into a more comfy percent range to pivot should you need to.


i like practicing with level 9 falco. lvl 9 cpu mashes out perfect. everytime. i base it off of that. i wish i were in front of a tv because i would you more accurate numbers. im certain somewhere in the low twenties range is when you can pummel once. ive done it before but never paid any mind to keep track of the percents. without a doubt though, the lvl 9 cpu always mashes out of grabs. was just cging falco the other night and remembered it.


about pivoting.. i think that its just in good practice. i like doing it from like 20% and on. that way i can be ready to react to any di left or right. i often have trouble turning around. pc likes to slight di behind marth which is deceptive so i just start pivoting whenver i can.
 
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#20
I've been sparring w/ a pretty good fox, getting shined out of my CG at 20% when he doesn't DI the uthrow.
When you guys pivot grab to avoid this, is it better to dash behind you then pivot or dash in front of you and pivot?
 
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#21
I've been sparring w/ a pretty good fox, getting shined out of my CG at 20% when he doesn't DI the uthrow.
When you guys pivot grab to avoid this, is it better to dash behind you then pivot or dash in front of you and pivot?
Speaking in frames, it doesn't matter. However, I like to dash forward. Just my personal preference. If you have a pivot that works easier for you (always dashing left then pivot right) you should probably always do that one (don't ask me why, but for some people it's easier to do one over the other). The key to chaingrabbing, at least that I've found, is to upthrow then pull your thumb off of the controller. This helps you focus on their DI instead of getting ready to pivot because you may not have to. You can't input any action until fox starts falling anyway and falco even further into his fall so there's no need to keep your finger on the stick.
 
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#22
I don't recommend pummeling much at all, unless you are trying to hit a sweetspot % (ex: if they are at 30, you should pummel to get a simpler utilt follow). Or, if you are trying to DI mindgame them (pummel to make sure they correctly DI the throw they expect, then throw them another direction).

From experience, the latest I've ever seen anyone mash out of a single, non-delayed pummel is 17%.

[to be more specific:

the grab escape formula is
t = 1.6d + 76 - 6b
where d = damage, b = buttons pressed, and t = time to get out of grab
Marth's pummel is 26 frames long, plus 3 frames of stun

so..

29 = 1.6(17)+76-6b
b = 12.37

So the opponent must do 13 or more button presses in 29 frames to get out of a single pummel at 17%
16 or more button presses in 29 frames @ 30%
19 or more button presses in 29 frames @ 40%

13 button presses may not seem like a lot but its actually really hard.

1 spin of the control stick = 4 presses
1 A-B-X-Y motion = 4 presses
L+R (people often don't even do this) = 2 presses

Thats only 10 total...getting those last 3 can be..difficult. Plus, you most likely won't start mashing until 5-10 frames into the pummel. A spin of the control stick, an A-B-X-Y motion, L+R, plus 3 more inputs in about a third of a second is rather demanding.

On the flip side, if I ever see any of you guys get pummeled at 0% by a Sheik again...(you only need 8 presses! one spin and one ABXY! and you don't even need to worry about inputting your DI because her throw animation is so long)...

(please correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers)]

are people really saying i have to start pivoting at 16%? i've never started pivoting until 20% for fox and like 25% for falco...can they really shine out even if you time the grab correctly? I've definitely heard other decent players tell me differently, so how exactly was this tested?
You have to start pivoting at 16.

I've been sparring w/ a pretty good fox, getting shined out of my CG at 20% when he doesn't DI the uthrow.
When you guys pivot grab to avoid this, is it better to dash behind you then pivot or dash in front of you and pivot?
Dash forward is typically better because you are less susceptible to slight DI behind. It can be very hard to tell the difference between slight DI behind and neutral DI at the early %s and dash forward pivot grab covers both.

But I recommend knowing how to do either. A lot of times you want to walk them to a more favorable part of the stage so dash behind is rather useful. Also, you will not always have room (by the ledge, on a platform) to dash forward.
 
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#23
Thank you both for your input. I was curious if there was some sort of thing I did not know such as "Fox's shine hitbox extending further behind him than it does in front of him" or some other trivial detail.
 
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#24
Thank you both for your input. I was curious if there was some sort of thing I did not know such as "Fox's shine hitbox extending further behind him than it does in front of him" or some other trivial detail.
Well I've heard that it actually does extend farther behind him, but I've never actually looked at the gif for it. Actually, let me check now...

You can see for yourself here, but it looks the same to me.
 
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#25
Thats only 10 total...getting those last 3 can be..difficult. Plus, you most likely won't start mashing until 5-10 frames into the pummel. A spin of the control stick, an A-B-X-Y motion, L+R, plus 3 more inputs in about a third of a second is rather demanding.

On the flip side, if I ever see any of you guys get pummeled at 0% by a Sheik again...(you only need 8 presses! one spin and one ABXY! and you don't even need to worry about inputting your DI because her throw animation is so long)...

(please correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers)]
Against one sheik player I know who always likes to pummel at low percents, I can usually mash out at 40% and below with one pummel attempt. I'm not sure if I agree with that formula all that much. Or at least maybe how the button presses add maybe.
 
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#26
Against one sheik player I know who always likes to pummel at low percents, I can usually mash out at 40% and below with one pummel attempt. I'm not sure if I agree with that formula all that much. Or at least maybe how the button presses add maybe.

Haha, I'm just using M2K's formula. It could be wrong for all I know, or maybe I misinterpreted how it works, but I trust M2K when it comes to these things.

That Sheik player is probably pummeling 5-10 frames after he grabbed you, and starting his throw animation 5-10 frames after the pummel ends. Otherwise, you'd have to do 19 inputs in 29 frames, which is really, really hard (would likely require 2 spins of the control stick).

But yeah, I've noticed that Sheik players for whatever reason pummel the most. Which is convenient, because Sheik's slow throw animation makes her the most practical to mash against...you have to worry about DIing the throw for other characters much more; spinning the control stick when you ought to be DIing can be very lethal.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
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#27
@Pivot grabbing: For those who have a hard time doing this consistently, I recommend pressing Y+Z at the same time. If you press both at the same (pivot) frame, you do a pivot grab just as if you had pressed only Z. In case you press Z a few frames too late, you still do a dd-jumpcancel-grab which works way better than the dashgrab you get when messing up the pivot with only Z.
I believe dd-jc-grabbing works from 16 on; there are only 1-4 additional frames compared to pivot grabbing and the frame window doesn't feel that tight.

@Direction in which to pivot grab: Dash towards the closer ledge. After the grab, you'll stand with your back near the ledge and you have an avantage when uptilting. Uptilts can be DIed so that they fly with >90° (towards your back side). If they choose to do so when you're standing that way, it will only put them in a worse position and make killing them with a tipper Fsmash easier. If you do the opposite and grab so that your face is closer to the ledge, they will DI the uptilts back which makes finishing them off harder.
 

Signia

Smash Lord
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#28
I've always done
Fox:
uthrow to 19%
pivot grab to 27%-30%
upthrow, uptilt, regrab, upthrow, utilt, uair, walk/pivot fsmash.
Falco: same but add 10%.

If they DI away while at 58%+ I just tip fsmash

But I am a ****ty marth after 4 years and apparently these numbers are wrong sooooooooooooooooooo
 
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