[deleted]

[{Kyro}]

[content deleted]

 

[{Kyro}]

[content deleted]

 

[Sean de Lure]

hitstun is just Knockback * 0.4, I don't see any modifiers

 

[{Kyro}]

[content deleted]

 

[Zubatman27]

I don't think there is a difference.

 

[{Kyro}]

[content deleted]

 

[Jaxas]

The other important thing to test is what the kill confirm (and/or 50/50) percent ranges are for staled Dthrow/Ftilt/Dtilt, because that's where it's going to be the most relevant.

Stealing from SSBwiki (because all the Smashboards versions of the images I found are broken links...), the formula is:

Spoiler: In case this isn't showing up correctly

( ( ( ( ( ( (P/10) + ( (P*D) / 20 ) ) * ( 200 / (W+100) ) ) * 1.4 ) + 18 ) * S ) + B ) * R

P | Receiver's Percent (calculated post hit )
D | Attack's Damage
W | Receiver's Weight
S | Attack's Knockback Growth
B | Attack's Base Knockback
R | "Ratio", based off of things like Smash Charge KB increase, Rage, Crouch-cancelling, etc (also 1P-mode stuff like Difficulty)

(@Thinkaman if you could confirm that this is correct that'd be great)

Staling likely only affects the Damage the attack deals, so it would influence P and D exclusively. There's nothing in the KB Formula specifically about staling, so it's unlikely that it would affect knockback beyond the weakening from damage reduction; that's not to say it shouldn't be tested, though!

I don't really have the equipment to test things myself, unfortunately; no capture card here. If anyone can think of a way to test through in-game result stuff though, let me know and I'll do it!

 

[{Kyro}]

The other important thing to test is what the kill confirm (and/or 50/50) percent ranges are for staled Dthrow/Ftilt/Dtilt, because that's where it's going to be the most relevant.

Stealing from SSBwiki (because all the Smashboards versions of the images I found are broken links...), the formula is:

Spoiler: Formula

( ( ( ( ( ( (P/10) + ( (P*D) / 20 ) ) * ( 200 / (W+100) ) ) * 1.4 ) + 18 ) * S ) + B ) * R

P | Receiver's Percent (calculated post hit )
D | Attack's Damage
W | Receiver's Weight
S | Attack's Knockback Growth
B | Attack's Base Knockback
R | "Ratio", based off of things like Smash Charge KB increase, Rage, Crouch-cancelling, etc (also 1P-mode stuff like Difficulty)

(@Thinkaman if you could confirm that this is correct that'd be great)

Staling likely only affects the Damage the attack deals, so it would influence P and D exclusively. There's nothing in the KB Formula specifically about staling, so it's unlikely that it would affect knockback beyond the weakening from damage reduction; that's not to say it shouldn't be tested, though!

I don't really have the equipment to test things myself, unfortunately; no capture card here. If anyone can think of a way to test through in-game result stuff though, let me know and I'll do it!

Staling does affect knockback significantly. I think we can jump straight to testing the confirms, unless there's something else we have to check first. The Wiki does have a page on staling along with damage/knockback reduction formulas, but I wouldn't trust that to be accurate. Any kill setups that we have the ranges for, we should test what ranges they work at when moves are in different positions in the queue. We could probably just test one or two characters from each of the weight classes compiled by KuroganeHammer for that purpose.

 

[Sean de Lure]

staling isn't going to make enough of a difference to warrant testing more than a 1-2 positions in the queue, at most 1-2 stale for previous attempts, and if you knew when it worked fresh, you wouldn't have any failed attempts
you're better off just testing when setups kill fresh with varying amounts of rage.
for example, ranges of rage that would be best to research on dthrow uair would probably be 50-60, 100-120 and 130 rage, those are the general percents where sheik is when the opponent is at killing percents. You can assume that they DI away, as that's the latest it will kill. For testing characters, prioritize characters that show up often, eg sheik, falcon, etc

tldr you wont need to test stale kill percents if you know when they kill fresh

edit: also if a stale move deals the same knockback as another fresh move (meaning the fresh move is weaker when compared to the fresh version of the stale move) the hitstun is the same. it's a simple equation

 

[{Kyro}]

So should I let this thread die and wait until a few more people have contributed to the Sheik to-do list, or rework it now? I'm asking because we don't have very many fresh, no-rage percent ranges either as of right now.

 

[Simikins]

Yay you took my advice!
While hitstun is seeming iffy, I still think we need a chart of the different amounts of damage sheiks moves do when stale.
And I play on 3ds so I can't help out with kill setups or hitstun malarkey.

I think this thread is important, don't let it die.

The sheik to do list is a bit more important though.

 

[{Kyro}]

Yay you took my advice!
While hitstun is seeming iffy, I still think we need a chart of the different amounts of damage sheiks moves do when stale.
And I play on 3ds so I can't help out with kill setups or hitstun malarkey.

I think this thread is important, don't let it die.

The sheik to do list is a bit more important though.

I have confirmed from multiple tests that stale moves can in fact still be viable kill setups.
If you can explain the significance of damage to me please do because I would gravitate more towards knockback testing.

 

[Simikins]

I have confirmed from multiple tests that stale moves can in fact still be viable kill setups.
If you can explain the significance of damage to me please do because I would gravitate more towards knockback testing.

Damage and knockback is linear. Damage is way easier to test. Numbers are beautiful. Charts are my life.

 

[{Kyro}]

Damage and knockback is linear. Damage is way easier to test. Numbers are beautiful. Charts are my life.

All right then, I'll redo the OP soon