Official Dededestruction: D3 Research and Tech Thread

[ExiaPilotDedede]

Also, new point, I realized that Cloud's recovery is completely gimpable by DDD's inhale. Just jump off stage and inhale all the way while cloud is recovering and you're guaranteed to catch him. Then just spit him out beneath the stage and he's hopeless.

Except on block stages, doesn't he have a wall jump?

 

[cwjakesteel]

Except on block stages, doesn't he have a wall jump?

Yes except on block stages, unless you can exhale him out low enough and still have room for you yourself to recover.

 

[El_Bardo]

Wow i had no idea until now that we had 6 angles for Gordo, the Smashed ones are a new finding to me. Thanks for the vid !

 

[Substitute]

Good stuff ExiaPilotDedede . Well definitely start applying those up-b mixups into my game.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

So last night I played a bunch of dittos and even some Dedede free-for-alls. At one point we were all just doing the Super Dedede Jump trying to bury each other, which got me thinking about out optimal punishes if we manage to bury someone (if we even have enough time to do anything because of that super long animation once we cancel the Jump.) I've never really seen the concept discussed. I've been experimenting with it, but haven't really found anything that works well or consistently.

Going for percent is a good way to go here since buried opponents receive considerably less knockback. The best I've found is UGordo (both tilted and smashed) Throw including the melee swing from the throw itself. That does 24% if both connect.

There is one more option, and I think it might have some merit. I'm just not totally sure about the timing and overall mechanics around burying and being buried. This option goes the route of Wii Fit Trainer's jab and Yoshi's Egg Lay/grab release. Once the opponent is free from the bury, they tend to fly upward. In training mode, which of course isn't optimal, I can catch that upward movement with an upair or a nair.

What does this mean for us? I have no idea. Burying mechanics are a total mystery to me, but from what I can tell other characters that have similar set ups sometimes get free KOs and/or damage. Yoshi's grab release into Yoshi Bomb, Egg Lay release into upair, DK's Headbutt bury into upair, and Wii Fit Trainer's jab finisher bury into nair just to name a few.

What do you guys think about this concept? I doubt it'll amount to much, but the idea might be worth exploring...

 

[Girthquake]

So last night I played a bunch of dittos and even some Dedede free-for-alls. At one point we were all just doing the Super Dedede Jump trying to bury each other, which got me thinking about out optimal punishes if we manage to bury someone (if we even have enough time to do anything because of that super long animation once we cancel the Jump.) I've never really seen the concept discussed. I've been experimenting with it, but haven't really found anything that works well or consistently.

Going for percent is a good way to go here since buried opponents receive considerably less knockback. The best I've found is UGordo (both tilted and smashed) Throw including the melee swing from the throw itself. That does 24% if both connect.

There is one more option, and I think it might have some merit. I'm just not totally sure about the timing and overall mechanics around burying and being buried. This option goes the route of Wii Fit Trainer's jab and Yoshi's Egg Lay/grab release. Once the opponent is free from the bury, they tend to fly upward. In training mode, which of course isn't optimal, I can catch that upward movement with an upair or a nair.
What does this mean for us? I have no idea. Burying mechanics are a total mystery to me, but from what I can tell other characters that have similar set ups sometimes get free KOs and/or damage. Yoshi's grab release into Yoshi Bomb, Egg Lay release into upair, and Wii Fit Trainer's jab finisher bury into nair just to name a few.

What do you guys think about this concept? I doubt it'll amount to much, but the idea might be worth exploring...

Someone posted something like this on the boards a long time ago. Instead they were talking about utilizing when they pop out of the bury into something like an Uair since you generally get a ton of lag when you cancel up B so close to the ground. It probably has it's niche uses and if you want feel free to record some footage and make a case for it being viable. I think it could be in certain cases.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

So last night I played a bunch of dittos and even some Dedede free-for-alls. At one point we were all just doing the Super Dedede Jump trying to bury each other, which got me thinking about out optimal punishes if we manage to bury someone (if we even have enough time to do anything because of that super long animation once we cancel the Jump.) I've never really seen the concept discussed. I've been experimenting with it, but haven't really found anything that works well or consistently.

Going for percent is a good way to go here since buried opponents receive considerably less knockback. The best I've found is UGordo (both tilted and smashed) Throw including the melee swing from the throw itself. That does 24% if both connect.

There is one more option, and I think it might have some merit. I'm just not totally sure about the timing and overall mechanics around burying and being buried. This option goes the route of Wii Fit Trainer's jab and Yoshi's Egg Lay/grab release. Once the opponent is free from the bury, they tend to fly upward. In training mode, which of course isn't optimal, I can catch that upward movement with an upair or a nair.
What does this mean for us? I have no idea. Burying mechanics are a total mystery to me, but from what I can tell other characters that have similar set ups sometimes get free KOs and/or damage. Yoshi's grab release into Yoshi Bomb, Egg Lay release into upair, DK's Headbutt bury into upair, and Wii Fit Trainer's jab finisher bury into nair just to name a few.

What do you guys think about this concept? I doubt it'll amount to much, but the idea might be worth exploring...

I do like the idea of using this, but I think a good question to ask is how to setup the upB so that the bury can be hit consistently? The cancel timing isn't that hard to get down, but you need a mighty fine read in order to catch someone with it, and that's where I just see the move not being all that viable. Unless maybe you came at them from off the edge, otherwise you can just see it coming from a mile off.

I do really like the idea though, it would be sooo disrespectful. :D`

 

[SalsaSavant]

Has anyone been able to consistently Gordo Roll yet?

I'm thinking of doing some research on it.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

[T]hat's where I just see the move not being all that viable. Unless maybe you came at them from off the edge, otherwise you can just see it coming from a mile off.
I do really like the idea though, it would be sooo disrespectful. :D`

And that's where this idea falls really short. There's just no good way to bury people. Like Girth said, if we managed to make it solid tech, it would be terribly niche.
Endurrr said that we could bury shield broken opponents at high percents then punish for the disrespect since higher percents make longer buried times.

 

[Soul Train]

Has anyone been able to consistently Gordo Roll yet?

I'm thinking of doing some research on it.

Just read the OP, I make it a point to keep it very up to date. We have a great breakdown on that right here under "Solid Tech".

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

And that's where this idea falls really short. There's just no good way to bury people. Like Girth said, if we managed to make it solid tech, it would be terribly niche.
Endurrr said that we could bury shield broken opponents at high percents then punish for the disrespect since higher percents make longer buried times.

I think this might be a decent approach since it eliminates the ending lag:
https://gfycat.com/EnviousNextAfricangoldencat
You should have a lot more time after a ledge get up, maybe even enough to get off a side smash. Maybe even drop down below the ledge to uAir for some safe % racking.

I'm doing a bit of research on this right now. I'll have some clips uploaded in a bit.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Just read the OP, I make it a point to keep it very up to date. We have a great breakdown on that right here under "Solid Tech".

Ah, thanks.

Guess I gotta brush up on my basic reading skills!

I might still play around, see where it works, doesn't work, maybe find a "best way" to do it. Stuff like that.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I think this might be a decent approach since it eliminates the ending lag.

I didn't even think of that! If they're above 100%, there'd definitely be enough time for a hard punish; the Super Dedede Jump does pack a mean bury. I've actually done this before, but I SD'd, respawned, and dash attacked for the KO. Let us know if you find anything cool!

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I've managed to do what Exia described in training very consistently, so I decided to take it to the next level and try to perform the concept on some For Glory chumps. It didn't go well.

Generally, I tried to bury the opponent once they got around 105%. I actually managed the bury six or seven times on living opponents, but the delay from online, however slight, was incredibly difficult to work with. I would get the bury but cancel the Jump too late and SD. Not even counting the SDs with buries, I reckon I SD'd at least forty times.

However, I did manage to bury a living Marth once and then grab the ledge. I rolled back onto the stage and, instead of an fsmash, I misinput an ftilt and he escaped. I was just so excited I lost my grip. I was so mad. I'll get the footage I promise, but I'm really thinking I might be able to make this into really ****ty solid tech.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

I've managed to do what Exia described in training very consistently, so I decided to take it to the next level and try to perform the concept on some For Glory chumps. It didn't go well.

Generally, I tried to bury the opponent once they got around 105%. I actually managed the bury six or seven times on living opponents, but the delay from online, however slight, was incredibly difficult to work with. I would get the bury but cancel the Jump too late and SD. Not even counting the SDs with buries, I reckon I SD'd at least forty times.

However, I did manage to bury a living Marth once and then grab the ledge. I rolled back onto the stage and, instead of an fsmash, I misinput an ftilt and he escaped. I was just so excited I lost my grip. I was so mad. I'll get the footage I promise, but I'm really thinking I might be able to make this into really ****ty solid tech.

I'll play around with it a bit online, and see what I can get.

 

[Endurrr]

None of this is really new, this is just some stuff that I implemented into my gameplay recently as a rare mixup. I didn't look anywhere for this stuff, I just kind of thought of these myself and want to popularize it a little bit.

Ledgedrop up air bait to up b spike
Ledgedropping up air on someone's shield or directly hitting them while they're on the ledge obviously gets rid of your ledge invincibility. I use this as a bait sometimes. When they collect themselves after the upair either getting hit by it at low percents or after it hits their shield, they may try to go offstage to edgeguard your lag of ledge invincibility. If you think they're going to spike or stage spike, or just try to disrupt your recovery with any attack, then beefy up b past the ledge and attempt an up b spike. It definitely doesn't work more than once but you may surprise them the first time. Don't go for this often.

Spoiler

I hit falcon's shield and he attempts to stage spike with bair. I punish the whiff as he tries to recover.

Jigglypuff didn't know what hit it until it was too late.

Downthrow Fsmash
I use Dthrow fsmash to read airdodges, counters, and mashouts (Theoretically, I haven't gotten a mashout on someone yet). It only works when they don't DI away as far as I know, or else they get hit. If you have the read, this kills EARLY. One of the most satisfying ways to land fsmash outside of gordo setups in my opinion. You can scare people into getting hit by it...

Spoiler

Corrin makes a big mistake.

Different Corrin, same idea.

Ledgedrop Inhalecide
This is the quickest and least telegraphed way to inhalecide that I have ever done. If they're at the edge and you're on the ledge, they're pretty vulnerable. When at the ledge, hold down and then IMMEDIATELY press jump, then neutral b. If you jump too late, you won't be high enough for inhale to scoop opponents from the ledge. Doesn't take much practice, but its still a good idea to play with it for a little bit in training so you don't mess it up in an actual match.

Spoiler

 

[DEX_]

I'm pretty sceptic about the upair upb stuff, but the Ledgedrop Inhalecide is really fabolous!

Btw i started using platdrop inhales on battlefield just yesterday, and it surprisingly did amazing even against one friend of mine much more experienced in this game, i'll try to record something but it's a really good thing to mixup with rushdown characters

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

Ledgedrop up air

Love this ****, how do you do it without dropping down below the ledge?

Edit: I'm dumb and didn't read the whole post. There is a breakdown in the third part. Very cool man!

 

[shiningpaladin]

Ledgedrop Inhalecide

This is the quickest and least telegraphed way to inhalecide that I have ever done. If they're at the edge and you're on the ledge, they're pretty vulnerable. When at the ledge, hold down and then IMMEDIATELY press jump, then neutral b. If you jump too late, you won't be high enough for inhale to scoop opponents from the ledge. Doesn't take much practice, but its still a good idea to play with it for a little bit in training so you don't mess it up in an actual match.

Spoiler

This^

I actually did this couple of time by accident trying to do the gordo roll on stage. I think this is a really good move on people who get too confident near the ledge. I think it has better utility on stages where you can pinapple them especially if they have a more linear recovery. I wanna lab this and see all the possibilities with this.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

This is the bury tech I've been working on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZJIQIFm_3M

I'm making something more comprehensive in the future, but I figured it would be a good idea to show a little bit of progress.

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

This is the bury tech I've been working on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZJIQIFm_3M

I'm making something more comprehensive in the future, but I figured it would be a good idea to show a little bit of progress.

I see it works pretty well at high percents. Does it take too long to get up when they are lower? FSmash kills pretty early, so connecting this at 60-80% would be cool. Is this get up faster than a standard one?

 

[TMJ_Jack]

You're looking at a difference of a just a few frames if you want the meaty part of fsmash. They need to be at a high percent for two reasons: to keep them buried long enough and to insure that fsmash actually KOs. Being buried reduces knockback significantly. We're talking raw fsmash being unable to KO around 90%. That's huge. If it weren't that way, you see a lot of DKs really fishing for that Headbutt bury into 10-wind punch.

 

[backalleyracer]

I'm not sure if this is known or not, but there is a 5th option out of jab 2.

Besides dtilt, grab, fair, or ftilt, if you have been training your opponent to attempt and air dodge on the fair attempt ( floaty characters especially) you can cover the air dodge option with a Bair instead.

This works wonders because at the time you will attempt this, the opponent will be at higher percentage and can net a kill off of jab 2.

 

[The Royal Gardener]

Hey, guys! I discovered something with King Dedede recently that I thought you would like to experiment with. It's small, but maybe you will see potential in it. I'm not entirely sure if someone has discussed this before, but I'm hoping that I found something new here.

When your opponent is on the ground (or close to it, requires testing), I've found that a fast-falling Nair into an immediate Up-Tilt upon landing could be used as a small combo-starter at lower percentages. It looks like it might open up a window for some kind of quick follow-up, maybe an aerial or something of that sort.

So, I hope that some of you can play around with this and see if it has any practical uses. Let me know if you find anything! I'll be happy to hear about it!

 

[Girthquake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afK6dHki36c Some more Lylat Tech

 

[SalsaSavant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afK6dHki36c Some more Lylat Tech

How tricky is the angle? Does it have to be perfect, or is it just "When it tilts"?

 

[Girthquake]

How tricky is the angle? Does it have to be perfect, or is it just "When it tilts"?

Try it out yourself. It's really easy to do. You really don't even need that much of an angle because the move is surprisingly close to being able to auto cancel without the slope. All you have to do is just be aware in the situation that you can retreating fair from high ground to low ground and it works. It's actually a lot easier than the Gordo stuff on Lylat since it doesn't matter whether it's rising or fully risen or not

 

[ExiaPilotDedede]

So, I've done this a couple of times now, and I've found it's a pretty interesting mix up. I don't think it's all that viable, but on light characters it's a decent chance to KO at high percents. Essentially, D-Throw -> U-Air -> Up-B. If they DI the U-Air wrong, you can throw one of these out. The trick is to take advantage of their hit stun and the fact that Up-B has such a big range they think they are safe and take their eyes off you. Maybe one of you can figure out a modification to make it connect more reliably.

Spoiler

 

[Soul Train]

So. Lots to share with you guys. First, courtesy of the brilliant @Furil, here are the Gordo hitboxes:

Spoiler: Gordo hitboxes

Takeaways:

1. The hitbox is WAY smaller than you think, and only matches the size of the Gordo image when "stuck" - that's the top-right hitbox.
2. Every 30 frames, the hitbox shrinks. So on frames 1-30, it's hitbox 1, then frames 31-60, hitbox 2, etc.
3. Strangely, Gordo doesn't rotate on its center - it's rotational node is 8 units up from center - as you can see at the bottom right image. This also reflects in the other hitboxes being slight off-center as well.

And if you think that's good info, I've got something better. After some nutso testing, I confirmed the relieving/unfortunate truth that...

GORDO STICK IS RANDOM.

With a 50% to bounce off the ledge or stick, to be precise. Here's a snapshot of the spreadsheet I made testing the thing.

This is the product of 1. My obsession with understanding the stick, and 2. My belief that Gordo WASN'T random, and that I could isolate some frame-perfect stick method. The in-game tips directly mention the Gordo stick, it had to be consistent! Alas. I finally thought to just do hundreds of stick tests on a custom stage built for the purpose. See gif: https://gfycat.com/MediumPoliteGalapagosalbatross

Conclusions:

First, sticks are NOT affected by Gordo:

• Rotation/angle
• Speed
• Type (Up/Down/Forward, smashed or tilted)
• Bouncing off platforms OR enemies

Second, this means:

1. Sticks are EASY, more about feel and less finding frame-perfect methods
2. Gordo stick = sacrifice stage control for greater kill potential

For me, this is honestly relieving. I spent so much time trying to create perfect sticks, then delving into the code. Yes 50% is dumb but it's a measurable risk, and one that I'll definitely take.

Applying that, there are 4 solid followups when you get a stick:

1. UpB (be sure to jump first to get high enough, then flip out after hitting them to grab ledge)
2. Bair (very reliable, kills above 80%)
3. Fsmash (only if you have enough time to get onstage)
4. Dair (FOR GLORY)

I've put all of this into the final Gordo Mastery video right here, click for this and waaaay more information, with examples and breakdowns as usual: https://youtu.be/XHYJKgD_TxQ

ExiaPilotDedede nice thoughts, just please embed all gifs with a spoiler dropdown so the site is easier to view on mobile. Unfortunately the UpB idea is...very situational, and pretty much only works if your opponent is way too aggressive or easy to read. I like the creativity a lot though!

 

[SalsaSavant]

So apparently, we can speed up our crouching perfect pivot with Bidou. Not sure how useful it is, but there ya go.

 

[dreamastermind]

GORDO STICK IS RANDOM.

I knew it was random from day one, but didn't know there was a custom that made it 100%. Makes me wish there were custom tournaments as the norm, but that will never happen. Nice video otherwise. Gordo sticks are my favorite kills.

 

[Girthquake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRw1IM0FqH4

A small piece of what I've been working on for my Dthrow video. This stuff needs more testing but is a solid set up for a reset while auto canceling fair allowing you to Gordo toss out of reset into bair for heavy damage

 

[The Royal Gardener]

Hi again, everyone! I have done some testing on that Nair to Up-Tilt thing that I mentioned in my last post. Turns out, it can be pretty useful! I tried it out in some CPU matches, as well as against a few other players, and I got some good results.

Here's what I have found through my research:

Spoiler: King Dedede Research: Fast-falling Nair -> Up-Tilt

Conditions for This to Work:

• Opponent must be on or close to the ground
  
• Must be directly on top of opponent; they will fly at an angle if you are off center

Damage Scopes (The Damage %'s That This Will Work At):

Super Heavyweights: 0% -> 60% - 70%

Heavyweights: 0% -> 60% - 65%

Middleweights: 0% -> 50% - 55%

Featherweights: 0% -> 45% - 50%

Balloonweights: 0% -> 45%


When to Use - Leads and Situations:
This tech is a little situational, but when there’s a window for it, this can be very useful.

• Works as a great punish, especially against slower characters
  
• Best to use only when the opponent is stuck in a longer period of startup or end lag.
  
• You can potentially use this after a bury from the Super Dedede Jump, but the opportunity for this is very short when the landing from the low cancel is factored in.

• Follow-Ups:

• Jab / Forward-Tilt
• Works at early scope%’s

• Works on all characters, except Jigglypuff

• Grab

• Works at extremely early scope %’s (0% – 5% on Bowser)
  
• Only works on Heavyweights and Super Heavyweights

• Fair / Bair

• Works at mid – high scope %’s on all characters
  
• Works at early scope %’s on all characters except Heavyweights and Super Heavyweights
  
• Hard to avoid if you can read the opponents DI correctly

• Up-Air

• Works at mid – high scope %’s on all characters

• Forward Smash

• Works at mid scope %’s on all characters

• Gordo Toss

• Works at mid – high scope %’s on all characters
  
• Has lots of range, making it hard to avoid

• Down-Tilt / Down Smash

• Works like the grab: only works on HW’s/SHW’s at very low %’s

• Another Up-Tilt

• Works at low scope %’s on all characters, except for Jigglypuff
  
• Can be repeated for a small juggle

• Inhale

• Works on Heavyweights and Super Heavyweights at low scope %’s
  
• Can be a little risky, since you’re bringing the opponent close to you

I hope you guys find this useful. If any of you find some new stuff to do with this (or if I made an error in my research), please feel free to share it; I'd really love to hear about it!

 

[DEX_]

I found out the closest hitbox of jab one make the opponent fall from the battlefield platforms making them in a position where they have to tech


it's difficult to pull out on big characters, due to the fact they will probably be hit by the other hitbox
it works at any percent, the bair is probably the best follow up for this setup, but i think you can also platdrop and dsmash, maybe reading the roll

it's might not be THAT hard to pull off the jab in that way during an actual fight i think... plus, you can bait on the platform

pulling of the bair out of it it's a bit tricky, but it's muscle memory: I buffer the turnaround during the first jab, it's easier; then you platdrop and at the same time bair, but that's obvious

here's the concept video

https://youtu.be/uzG8YUEDThk
the music is there because i was listening to it while labbing, coincidentally the finale is hype as duck to me because of it lol

 

[SalsaSavant]

So much new tech info added in one day...I feel like I need to contribute something.


Uh...hmm...
Uh, Jab 3 is a slightly underrated kill move? Yeah. That's it. I'll have a concept video soon?

 

[The Royal Gardener]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRw1IM0FqH4

A small piece of what I've been working on for my Dthrow video. This stuff needs more testing but is a solid set up for a reset while auto canceling fair allowing you to Gordo toss out of reset into bair for heavy damage

Hey, Girthquake, do you think this would work well together with my new tech?

 

[Flawed]

I found out the closest hitbox of jab one make the opponent fall from the battlefield platforms making them in a position where they have to tech


it's difficult to pull out on big characters, due to the fact they will probably be hit by the other hitbox
it works at any percent, the bair is probably the best follow up for this setup, but i think you can also platdrop and dsmash, maybe reading the roll

it's might not be THAT hard to pull off the jab in that way during an actual fight i think... plus, you can bait on the platform

pulling of the bair out of it it's a bit tricky, but it's muscle memory: I buffer the turnaround during the first jab, it's easier; then you platdrop and at the same time bair, but that's obvious

here's the concept video

https://youtu.be/uzG8YUEDThk
the music is there because i was listening to it while labbing, coincidentally the finale is hype as duck to me because of it lol

Wow this reminds me of the tech from brawl with dsmash covering both rolls.

I think you can land on bottom platform and simply charge and release dsmash for a kill

I am literally going to try this today

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I've recently realized something that I have been doing that is actually not a very obvious strategy, so I figured I would at least mention it here, and maybe make it into a tech. What I've been doing is using point blank upwards side B as an approach by short hopping or falling from above, and using gordo so that the hammer, while hitting the gordo, also hits the opponent or their shield while the gordo does not, so that if they decide to grab, attack, or drop shield, gordo will simply hit them right after when it falls on them. It is true that if the opponent just holds shield or rolls away they can dodge it, but this consistently works against people since they love to grab or attack after anything hits their shield, then gordo hits them, freeing DDD from the grab or attack. In addition this is another way to mix up our approach options from above, and gives us an approach from in front too. Of course this would probably be considered a mixup but it works pretty well!

Thoughts? Should I make a quick video or put more work into this? Either way at least the idea is out there now.

 

[Girthquake]

I've recently realized something that I have been doing that is actually not a very obvious strategy, so I figured I would at least mention it here, and maybe make it into a tech. What I've been doing is using point blank upwards side B as an approach by short hopping or falling from above, and using gordo so that the hammer, while hitting the gordo, also hits the opponent or their shield while the gordo does not, so that if they decide to grab, attack, or drop shield, gordo will simply hit them right after when it falls on them. It is true that if the opponent just holds shield or rolls away they can dodge it, but this consistently works against people since they love to grab or attack after anything hits their shield, then gordo hits them, freeing DDD from the grab or attack. In addition this is another way to mix up our approach options from above, and gives us an approach from in front too. Of course this would probably be considered a mixup but it works pretty well!

Thoughts? Should I make a quick video or put more work into this? Either way at least the idea is out there now.

Jdwag talked about this a little bit awhile back. If your opponent holds shield against the hammer hit and the Gordo if you Dsmash it's a shield break set up.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Jdwag talked about this a little bit awhile back. If your opponent holds shield against the hammer hit and the Gordo if you Dsmash it's a shield break set up.

oh really? Well that even takes care of the hold shield option! Very interesting. If I were to lab this though and make videos and all that I would have to wait until like 2 weeks from now since I have AP testing going on for the next 2 weeks, and I will be very busy.