Official Dededestruction: D3 Research and Tech Thread

[Soul Train]

So. Among a few others, I've noticed some issues around here. For example: new D3 tech/ideas are incredibly rare, isolated and unorganized. That creates negative creative momentum, making it harder for people to even find the motivation to try new things in the first place. Therefore the character develops less, leading to more losses, discouragement, etc.

This thread is meant to change that.

PURPOSES OF THIS THREAD:

1. Collect and create a place for people to find all D3 technology/research
2. Kickstart and crowdsource idea generation/testing
3. Structure the discovery process: Concepts -> Developing -> Solid

And most importantly, to help YOU easily contribute to the D3 community!

HOW DO I GET STARTED?

Scroll down, and either 1. Pick a Concept/Requested Research bullet below and start testing, or 2. come up with something new we can add to the list! Posting text ideas is fine, but video ideas are better!

HOW DOES THIS WORK?

While the outline and format will adapt as needed, for now the progression will be:

1. Ideas, Concepts, and Questions: An idea is posted, and if it's legit I'll put it here. Feel free to "call" an idea if you want to be recognized/held responsible for pushing the concept, I'll add your name to it. I will put a strikethrough on ideas that have been discredited as not viable (but NOT delete them - as someone might find a way to use it).
2. Developing and In Progress: once video evidence is provided that shows 1. Feasibility and 2. Viability of the concept, I'll move it here. At this point we'll need more people to jump on and test - let me know who's up for it! Sometimes multiple ideas will be rolled into one here (edgeguards, for example).
3. Solid Tech: for a "developing" concept to be moved here, it must meet three requirements: 1. Solid application of idea in match footage, 2. Viability affirmed by more than one person, and 3. Outlined in a beginner-friendly breakdown, explaining use and mentality step-by-step, preferably in video. Let's be real, I'll probably be the one doing that last bit though help would be fantastic

Hopefully, this post will soon be covered with tables, links, and fun new ideas for people to jump in and tackle. I will continually update the thread as often as I can. If there's anything I've forgotten to add here (link to a vid, thread, etc), please just PM me directly instead of wasting the post.

IDEAS, CONCEPTS, AND QUESTIONS:

(TESTING NEEDED FROM YOU)

General:

• Beating the 2-frame edgeguard: from @Jdawg26 - when recovering, hold down for a few frames to delay your ledgesnap and armor through a spike might otherwise hit your 2-frame ledgegrab vulnerability
• Instant UpB Landing - where you make UpB miss the ledge, but avoid all hang time in the air and land instantly. Does timing vary by stage? Practical as a mixup?
• Bouncing Gordo Research - I have a bunch of old tech with this, stopped pushing it when customs were banned. Fun tech: Bouncing Gordo sticks to the ledge almost 100% of the time, easy edgeguards. Feel free to do a concept video if you want.

Edgeguarding:

• Falling Uair edgeguard - same thing as the Uair chaingrab, but done offstage. Needs more video proof/practical application. Just using Uair to edgeguard isn't anything new, but fastfalling after hit could be. As TMJ_Jack notes, D3 fastfalling offstage is usually a terrible idea.
• Bair to Dair as airdodge punish, OnFullTilt . Entirely situational, or a legit 50/50?
• UGordo to footstool, KeithTheGeek . Does it cover airdodge? Viability across the cast?

Stage Specific:

• Placeholder

Character Specific: (yes I realize this might overlap with the matchup discussion, for now I'm fine with that until things get moving)

• ZSS: how can we apply ESAM's tips here to D3? Specific punishes, strategies?
• Ryu: is it possible to DI out of his Utilt -> Shoryuken?
• Wii Fit: how to beat soccer ball/sun salutation edge stalling?
• Villager: Fair ledge getup is wrecked by D3's Fullhop Dair (need video confirmation)
• Anti-ZSS, Sonic, Megaman, and Yoshi-specific tech (when can Gordo first hit ZSS out of her flip kick?)
• Optimized combos from character specific openings (best punish after a powershielded Sheik Fair, ZSS Nair, etc)
• D3-unique matchup tech (does D3 have any unique options with all his jumps+DI when caught in a Meta Knight Uair combo?)
• etc.

DEVELOPING AND IN PROGRESS:

General:

• Options and Mixups in Neutral: KeithTheGeek started a great writeup on this below. Use of pivots, foxtrotting, microspacing to stay unpredictable, some creative ways to cover options (ex: Using Jab 2 for combos, Pivot Fsmash, or Fullhop Fair - fastfall - Ftilt), etc. A video compilation of this would be great - just to see how we can better use D3's moves in neutral...I know I for sure can get predictable.
• Jab 2 mixups: Dtilt, grab, Fair, Dsmash - worth a short vid
• Dedede Jump Cancel - ledge recovery mixup
• Lagless Edge Getup, Silly Symphony . Unsure of its practical application and viability. Needs actual match footage.
• Spiking with UpB - seen some vids doing this, needs when/how/why breakdown (maybe a "how to edgeguard with D3", and this is one of your tools).
• Throw follow-ups: Dthrow -> Usmash, randomguy1235 . Useful to avoid staling Bair; is it ever punishable on hit (by Yoshi, Luigi)?
• Gordo Throw as Dthrow Followup: @CaptainVul posted three proof of concept vids here, here, and here (airdodge punish). Let's test - does this work best only on fastfallers, or is it applicable against the entire cast?

Gordo

• Stage specific ledgestick techniques: Smashville, etc
• Gordo Kill Setups: Girthquake . Fantastic, needs exploring and more application to all legal stages. Onstage examples here (shudder), here, and here. Might group the next few bullets into a more general Advanced Gordo 201, or "Playing around Gordo", "Hit Followups", etc category. Gordo -> Footstool setup example here.
• Gordo Ledge Sniping: Girthquake . Stage specific snipes incoming.
• Gordo Grab: Girthquake . Grab them when they try to shield the Gordo, get multiple hits/followups using the Gordo to ping them back after the throw. Another latest video here.

Stage Specific:

In general: all rising platforms/surfaces kill Gordo neigh instantly. All rising surfaces or ones with an angle allow some crazy jank (read: tech opportunities) to occur.

• Lylat Jankiness - Girthquake . Straight from his post below: The slanted edges and platform on Lylat Cruise allow for some crazy unpredictable mix ups to Gordo traps. understanding Gordo physics is important for this stage. While Lylat is in the motion of tilting upwards on either side it will eat Gordo, but not once it's fully tilted or tilting downwards.
• Town and City - when you place Gordo on the middle platform while it's rising, Gordo gets killed. But once the platform is fully risen or descending, Gordo's great.

Character Specific:

• RosaLuma: Uthrow, Dsmash can murder Luma - @CaptainVul.
• Wayy more to come.

SOLID TECH:

King Dedede's Kill %s by Move:

Spoiler: King Dedede Kill %s

(all done on Mario from the center of FD, with no DI)
Normals:

• Jab Finisher: 165%
• Ftilt: 204%
• Dtilt: 196%
• Utilt: 151%
• Dash Attack: 93%

Aerials

• Nair: 147%
• Fair: 172%
• Bair: 118%
• Uair: 124% (mario at fullhop height)
• Dair: 117%

Smashes

• Fsmash: 68%
• Dsmash: 118%
• Usmash: 110%

Throws

• Fthrow: 266%
• Bthrow: 194%
• Dthrow: 220%
• Uthrow: 246%

Specials

• Gordo: 154% (no bounce)
• Jet Hammer: 151%-67%, non-to-fully charged. If you hit JUST before full charge, kills sooner. Needs further testing.
• UpB: both bury and landing hits ~160%, landing hit only ~130%, spike hit only ~140%
• Inhale: can’t kill lol

Gordo:

• GORDO MASTERY: Part 1 - Trajectories and Application, Part 2 - Sniping, Part 3 - The Stick. Pretty much everything you need to know about Gordo here.
• Ledgegrab Gordo Roll: williamsga555 did a great explanation of this! A definite option when being camped at the edge. Here's an example of Big D doing it against Zero on stream.
• Shieldbreak Disrespect: do this and you will SHATTER THEIR MIND. Break shield, Gordo, UpB Spike = profit.

Recovering:

• Ledge Drop UpB: an excellent breakdown by @hypnonotic, complete with risk analysis, gifs, and graphics! D3 has many options in getting back to stage, and this is a great mixup. You can land instantly with UpB for a shieldbreak/kill, or mix that up with timing, or ledgegrab slightly later by holding up then letting go before you pass the ledge.
• Inhale Breakdown and Application: everything you need to understand and integrate the move into your D3 play.

Character Specific:

• ROB Gyro setups: Girthquake . When the opponent hits a Gyro, it causes them to fly the direction D3 was facing. This means some great edgeguard setups are possible. Catching and using character's items will be key in matchups - more labbing will be done.

Stage Specific:

• Battlefield: Girthquake total credit, this is his baby. Throw a DGordo at a recovering opponent while standing at the top platform, if it hits the correct side they'll fly up into you, and can be killed with a Usmash/Nair.
• Smashville: some solid Gordo setups with the platform. Similar to the above. Stand on the platform, hit the far side of the opponent with Gordo, follow up with Grab/Bair/Usmash, % dependent.

 

[Girthquake]

I'm pretty much down to lab whenever with any of this or collab with any of this with you. I do have a very large reddit post from a month ago that basically breaks down a lot of the Gordo stuff in text with video examples if that's appropriate to post here I will

 

[OnFullTilt]

Absolutely love how this is being handled, thanks so much Soul! I have a few questions by the way about the thread.
1) Is it just tech, or does research also qualify for finding out whether a mixup is useful? I feel D3 has a lot of underexplored, unintutive mixups that could be tested. If it doesn't belong here I personally think a new thread should be made for them.
2) Will all the tech be exclusive Dedede stuff, or will some of it be things that Dedede uses in different way than most (like how pivot ftilt helps out his wall style)?
3) Should we start naming Dedede techs? I feel we could make it easier to quickly differentiate between his techs if they had more unique names. Maybe the community could vote somewhere as to the names.
4) Just a thing you may or may not want to add: FHADS (Full hop airdodges. Girth uses these a lot so he must feel they are useful, I'd like to ask about it).
5) Also maybe we should make a thread somewhere fully breaking down some of D3's rarer moves (downB, dashattack)? Perhaps even a devoted thread for talking about all of his individual moves and when to use them.
Hmm maybe too many threads if everything has one, so perhaps the last point lacks merit. Anyways hopefully anything I said was helpful. Really looking forward to the progress of this thread! I'll try to contribute to labbing soon as well.

 

[Soul Train]

Absolutely love how this is being handled, thanks so much Soul! I have a few questions by the way about the thread...

• Anything can go into the "Ideas/Concept" phase. But then in the Developing phase that we would roll things together into one concept (like fullhop airdodges, I'd say that's would fall under "D3's options in neutral" than a legit tech). Same thing with Ftilts - and same answer of it being more a bullet under D3's neutral options.
• This isn't about individual move breakdowns - that's more the realm of our guides (parts 2 and 3 of my video guide go through all normals and specials already). But something more applied like "Jet Hammer Setups" would be a great idea/breakdown video!
• Don't worry about naming things. Just throw the idea out there, usually names are forced, and if something sticks it'll just happen naturally, for now at least. Again if it becomes an issue we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

[OnFullTilt]

• Anything can go into the "Ideas/Concept" phase. But then in the Developing phase that we would roll things together into one concept (like fullhop airdodges, I'd say that's would fall under "D3's options in neutral" than a legit tech). Same thing with Ftilts - and same answer of it being more a bullet under D3's neutral options.
• This isn't about individual move breakdowns - that's more the realm of our guides (parts 2 and 3 of my video guide go through all normals and specials already). But something more applied like "Jet Hammer Setups" would be a great idea/breakdown video!
• Don't worry about naming things. Just throw the idea out there, usually names are forced, and if something sticks it'll just happen naturally, for now at least. Again if it becomes an issue we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Ah, sounds good, thanks! For the ideas/concepts phase I'm interested in testing reverse jump cancel usmash as an antiair, and Gordo to cover getup/tech roll options (might be in girth's guide, can't check right now due to mobile...). Also there is this airdodge read I think could be great. If you fake that you'll go for a Bair offstage you can make people airdodge- if you read it you can do a multi jump and very consistently dair them. I want to check that this works on good opponents and that I'm not missing something, as I have gotten it very consistently. Oh and for the new ledgestick method there is something I want to test badly but cannot do so for a while. Basically I don't think you need to always get onstage befire you can get a strong followup. I was looking at the technique and I think if you input a multijump+Bair the instant you gain control the timing and positioning may make it possible to hit the opponent even if they hit the Gordo the instant after it sticks (seems you can start the jump+Bair a b little before the stick and then startup might line up beautifully). If the opponent takes a while to hit the Gordo you may be able to get high enough with your 3 remaining multijumps to dairspike them right after they hit the Gordo (if you do it soon enough they might not even pop up very high before you can hit them?). I haven't tested either of these things so I don't know if they are possible. I think there is an extremely strong chance that at least the Bair one is though. Basically for all of the things I mentioned I think they should be tested to see if they are strong enough to be useful. I plan on testing everything just in my normal gameplay, but I'm rather slow at it so feel free to test any of it if you're looking for stuff to try out.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think there could be a situational edge-guard set up off stage with Gordo Toss. Falling utilt Gordo, if it connects, can net you a free footstool. You can jump off of them out of the hitstun frames from the Gordo hitting it, and since you drop pretty deep when doing this it's practically a guaranteed KO. I've done this once or twice, largely on accident, but it seems like another neat trick we can do with the Gordo.

https://youtu.be/bxWMzK-7R_c?t=5m11s Rough idea of what I was talking about, and what originally gave me the idea.

I think the main issue is that you can only really intercept certain recoveries with this. Obviously, Falcon is one of those characters that lacks a hitbox on his up b.

 

[randomguy1235]

I'm not sure if this is well known but Dthrow to Usmash is guaranteed on the entire cast from 0-8% (labed and tested with others extensively) for a whopping 20-21% combo.

 

[Soul Train]

randomguy1235 and KeithTheGeek , added your stuff to concepts. I can't test til the weekend, but I like where this is going a lot.

OnFullTilt , same with yours, if D3 can land a Dair after Gordo stick without landing first, I'll die of happy. Oh, next time you've got a large block of text, try to put it into bullets, makes it much easier to read

 

[Girthquake]

I'm not sure if this is well known but Dthrow to Usmash is guaranteed on the entire cast from 0-8% (labed and tested with others extensively) for a whopping 20-21% combo.

Atomsk talked about this a bit. Very useful especially to keep bair fresh.


Also, here's that archived post that I made on Reddit awhile ago. Sorry if this is huge and sloppy pls don't give me an infraction


Some cool tech that you can do with Gordo as DDD. I'll try to label the videos by number for examples.

Before I get into this let's lay out the hitlag on Gordo. Gordo has 4 hit boxes 14%/12.5%/11%/9.5% depending on how many frames the Gordo has been active. For anyone that doesn't know what hitlag is, it's basically the given amount of frames that a victim (and the object doing the damage) remains frozen stationary after being hit with an attack. This is especially useful for DDD as Gordo has a hitlag modifer of 1.5 and since Gordo is the object dealing the damage the opponent suffers hitlag but DDD doesn't. This allows for some insane trapping and combo potential using Gordo. Now the formula for hitlag is as follows.

Hitlag = ((d/2.6)+5) * h * e

d = Attack Damage h = Hitlag Modifier e = 1.5 if the attack is electric, else 1

Additionally, moves with hitlag modifiers above 1.25 have the modifier divided by 1.25, to a minimum of 1, when they hit a shield. So basically the hitlag modifier on Gordo is 1.2 on shield instead of 1.5. Let's quickly lay out a few examples.

On opponent Hitlag = ((14/2.6)+5) * 1.5 * 1 = 15.6 which should round up to 16. Generally you'll get between 13 - 16 frames of hitlag on opponent

On shield Hitlag = ((14/2.6)+5) * 1.2 * 1 = 12.5 which should round up to 13. Generally you'll get between 10 - 13 frames of hitlag on shield

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGzouCm0JE - Example #1

Grabbing and throwing through Gordo is a great way to rack up some quick easy damage. If the Dthrow finishes you get the throw damage as well as the opportunity for a follow up after throwing them through the Gordo. Fatter characters tend to take multiple Gordo hits during the throw. Sometimes this can lead to a grab release and you'll miss the throw damage like in the example #1, but the two Gordo hits and Bair follow up netted me 35% in that example. all of this works very spectacularly with platforms as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IZ259RCzTA - Plenty more Gordo Grab examples showcased in this video. - Example #2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nOJYWChVKE - Example #3

When Gordo hits the back side of the opponents hurtbox, it will send them flying back towards you. Setting up a Gordo behind your opponent is a great way to really pressure them and limit their movement and spacing options when between DDD and Gordo. Always be ready to follow up when you see the Gordo might hit the back side of the opponents hurt box. This is especially useful for when an opponent is recovering low close to the stage and you slip a Gordo just past the ledge and connect it on the backside of the opponents hurtbox launching them towards the stage forcing a tech. If the opponent misses the tech they'll either simply be stage spiked and can't recover, or they'll be spiked back into the Gordo essentially pinballing them between Gordo and the stage. If you're aware of this you can actually follow up off of it.

https://youtu.be/n3-uRgdj-uA?t=1m28s - Slipping a DGordo behind villager into Uair K.O. - Example #4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A9D1MBBsms - An example of following up off of a pinball. - Example #5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rx7I34Ze55M - This is a more extreme and situational example of this, but still worthy to note. - Example #6

Another form of pinball is when you sandwich your opponent between the active hit boxes of Gordo and a quick lingering attack like Nair or Dtilt. Some spacing and timing for this creates some very strange behavior with Gordo.

https://youtu.be/XCRRXmwa-QE - Dtilt pinball on Lylat - Example #7

https://youtu.be/-rxS1dSZe20?t=1m42s - Dtilt pinball - Example #8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNmvpWPwQ78 - Dtilt pinball with strange KB angle - Example #9

Of course setting up Gordo behind someone when they miss space an attack and whiff or land a weak hit at low%s like in the example #1 you can knock the opponent into the Gordo with a few different options. The best ones being Fthrow/Ftilt/Dsmash/Dtilt each being useful in different situations. Depending on % Rage Staleness and distance from launch to Gordo you can follow up with almost all aerials. The only impractical one being dair. Uair actually nets kills quite a lot from this set up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ccbh-eopbY - An example of Dsmash > Gordo > Uair K.O. - Example #10

https://youtu.be/yKvSO2vrtHc?t=1m22s - An example of Dtilt > Gordo > Uair K.O. - Example #11

https://youtu.be/yKvSO2vrtHc?t=2m4s - An example of Fthrow > Gordo > Uair K.O. - Example #12

https://youtu.be/yKvSO2vrtHc?t=54s - An example of Ftilt > Gordo > Bair follow up - Example #13

There's plenty more examples in that same video, but these are generally the most consistently successful moves to knock opponents into Gordo with in my experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFmB7x8cUGs - Example #14

As you all might know, some scary stuff happens with Gordo when dealing with reflectors that have damage multipliers. Not only is Fox/Mii Gunner/Rosalina Reflectors and item absorb baitable with Gordo and punishable by something like grab or dash attack with the right spacing but it also allows for a very rewarding volley doing several times the damage Gordo would normally do and even netting early KOs in some instances with most characters that have a traditional reflect move, and all instances with Villager's pocket.

https://youtu.be/fu4syfeX-Bs?t=5m10s - Few examples of this with Mario's cape. - Example #15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJDA2-idSrw - Example with Dark Pit's reflect. - Example #16

A lot of DDDs are also quite quick to dismiss Lylat Cruise because of the unfavorable edges. Recovering on Lylat isn't as difficult with DDD as you think. You simply have to recover further out than what you're normally used to. I haven't SD'd on Lylat in a VERY long time with DDD. The slanted edges and platform on Lylat Cruise allow for some crazy unpredictable mix ups to Gordo traps. understanding Gordo physics is important for this stage. If you go to T&C the middle platform in the beginning that rises up and down is a great example to use and experiment with to understand exactly why Gordo gets eaten on Lylat. If you notice when you place Gordo on the middle platform while it's rising against Gordo that essentially kills it instantly, though once it's fully risen or when it's descending it doesn't. Same idea with Lylat. While Lylat is in the motion of tilting upwards on either side it will eat Gordo, but not once it's fully tilted or tilting downwards.

https://youtu.be/Cd3jjqEN9f0?t=22s - Using the side platform for a DA Gordo trap for massive damage - Example #17

https://youtu.be/Cd3jjqEN9f0?t=45s - Using the slanted edge for an up B kill set up with Gordo - Example #18

https://youtu.be/Cd3jjqEN9f0?t=1m26s - Using the tilted stage middle platform to land Gordo into Bair - Example #19

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkfG6Y7oct4 - Using the side platform for a clean DA Gordo trap kill - Example #20

https://youtu.be/n3-uRgdj-uA?t=41s - Example #21

Sticking Gordo on the ledge is quite tricky and inconsistent, but also very rewarding.(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PHSbLg9yJo Great new method for consistent sticks! Credit to OnFullTilt for this) I find I get most success off of a smashed FGordo from a distance, an UGordo right at the ledge, or when Gordo bounces off the opponent after doing damage and sticking to the ledge. Gordo lasts for 5 seconds as an active hit box when stuck to the ledge.

https://youtu.be/Cd3jjqEN9f0?t=12s - Example #22

https://youtu.be/yKvSO2vrtHc?t=2m45s - Example #23

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMZX_KysLrg - Example #24

https://youtu.be/_UYGyqHldJc?t=16s - Example #25

https://youtu.be/0icUVEKhNAM?t=9m48s - Example #26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJhXCKSYPA4 - Example #27 - full display of all sorts of sticks

Also @Flawed pulled off some nutty stuff with the Gordo footstools that were mentioned earlier, hope he doesn't mind if I post an example of him swaggin tough on this falcon with that tech https://youtu.be/ZVIsPF4w_P0?t=42s

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Well, that's kind of hard to follow up...
I have a few things to say about on the upair pseudo spike.
People have claimed to spike people using upair in the past. To land this, essentially use upair but don't land the last hit of the spin. The receiver will keep hitstun and continue falling vertically without being launched upwards. If this sounds familiar, it's because the same technique is used in the pseudo upair chain grab.
I don't really think there's much left to discuss. If someone produced a guide on how to do the pseudo spike consistently, good on them, but you could just watch a tutorial on the pseudo upair chain grab too granted fastfalling off stage as Dedede isn't very safe.

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

Here's a rather useless, I mean, "situational" setup I've used a few times. I feel this is useless since we can already let a Gordo bounce onstage and cancel from that. I can't fully lab all the effects, and even if I did I can't record anything, so I guess this'll just be here for someone to try.
-If a Gordo is stuck directly against the stage/halfway above the stage, it can cancel a backthrow, normally I use an Uair right after(Fox could be hit with and Usmash?) and it does work at kill percents. I'm fairly certain it only works on part of the cast; large hurtboxes and fastfallers I think.
-Dash grabbing the opponent will also lob them upwards, but at an angle that's rather hard to follow.

 

[Soul Train]

Updated. Geez, Girth, way to give me a book to pound through. I think I got most of the stuff inserted or summarized. Really sounds like a How-to on Gordo followups would be easy for you Girth - just take all those short clips, and add explanation of your thought process + slowdown so people can follow.

ZeThundaRippa you'll have to be more specific, or show video evidence, because I can't quite get what you're talking about. It's simple enough to save the replay of a 2 minute match ingame, then upload it to youtube with the Wii U uploader (I've got a whole separate hidden youtube channel expressly for this purpose).

FYI, OnFullTilt and I are working on that Fast Gordo Ledgestick tech, will post updates as soon as something cool is ready (I can't yet isolate the timing on the stupid thing).

 

[ZeThundaRippa]

Here, got my brother to help show it off, we goofed off for the second half, so no need to watch that chunk. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx67UHpZUd4

 

[Girthquake]

Here, got my brother to help show it off, we goofed off for the second half, so no need to watch that chunk.

This could be interesting if combined with a lagless get up into grab when you stick Gordo. People are generally pretty careful about edge guarding when there's a Gordo stuck on it so it's not unreasonable to say a lagless get up grab would work cool stuff man

 

[Soul Train]

ZeThundaRippa thanks for the tech - but in the future with this thread, 1. Let's keep things efficient and please edit your videos before posting down to what you actually want us to watch, and 2. Don't embed videos here, just post the youtube link.

Alright, let's kick off some community testing! I need you guys lab something on your end. I've been analyzing our new fast Gordo stick thing frame by frame, and I ALMOST have it broken down. Below is a proof of concept vid with slowdowns and such.

https://youtu.be/V_t2aX_xZ0o

From my analysis, success depends on the horizontal distance between D3 and the ledge when he hits Gordo. Too close = Gordo bounces onstage, too far = Gordo misses entirely, just right = stick. BUT there's a fourth possibility, and I cannot understand it for anything: at some magic distance, Gordo hits the ledge and bounces off it. I'm thinking it's when the Gordo is just BARELY too far away, so the corner spike rotates up just after Gordo passes the ledge. Bah. I've got a few dozen screenshots of the Gordo at key moments, and think I've found patterns. BUT I want to see what you all can come up with. Crowdsourcing go!

I meant to also include this straight Gordo roll from ledge by @| Big D | in the above vid, but for the life of me I cannot repeat this tech. My Gordo always smacks against the ledge and falls down, no matter how I mix up the timing of "hit away from ledge, jump, Gordo." Anyone else get this?

 

[Girthquake]

ZeThundaRippa

I meant to also include this straight Gordo roll from ledge by @| Big D | in the above vid, but for the life of me I cannot repeat this tech. My Gordo always smacks against the ledge and falls down, no matter how I mix up the timing of "hit away from ledge, jump, Gordo." Anyone else get this?

After practicing what he told me it's all about pressing back to get off the ledge without moving too much backwards from holding back too long, then IMMEDIATELY into a jumping Gordo Toss. Works best for me when I use DGordo but that's because I'm still kinda sloppy at doing it.

Basically if you hold back for too long while trying to drop off the ledge you go back too far and the Gordo doesn't slip up past the ledge when you jump forward

 

[Soul Train]

After practicing what he told me it's all about pressing back to get off the ledge without moving too much backwards from holding back too long, then IMMEDIATELY into a jumping Gordo Toss. Works best for me when I use DGordo but that's because I'm still kinda sloppy at doing it.

lol I landed it once right after reading that, and now can't do it again for the life of me. It's the height of that first jump that makes the difference, I can't get mine to go as high as Big D did AND hit the Gordo abovestage.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

By the way, I think I actually pulled off a chopper drop during one of my recorded sets yesterday. Need to wait on the VODs but they'll hopefully be up by the time AGDQ is done, or shortly after. I just sorta threw the uair out as I was landing and it connected. I want to say it was against either Link or Zss, both fairly tall characters which likely played a roll in me hitting it.

I'm also getting SUPER consistent at sticking gordos, the only probably is that I'm using the slow method. Will need to lab out faster methods when I get the chance.

 

[shiningpaladin]

Hey I know I'm a bit of an unknown but I'd like to help. I spend a lot of time with D3 in training mode messing around with him and mostly mess around with combo and mix-up stuff. I'm getting capture device soon so I can actually post some of the stuff I do.

Of course I'm far from anyone creditable but I'm hoping I can add a thing or two. This is my favorite character in this game with lots of fun and neat tricks I wanna help uncover.

 

[williamsga555]

Practicing the rolling gordo thing this morning, I think it's pretty easy to get the timing down once it "clicks" with you.

So far, getting it to just roll, like what Big D managed, seems to just come down to doing it as fast as possible. You press back and as soon as he lets go of the ledge, you jump and gordo. It's a very fast motion, but once you get it down it should become really consistent after that.

Otherwise, doing it even a little bit late causes it to bounce slightly higher and slightly slower, much like an up angled toss normally does. This one I haven't been able to do reliably, and I'm not sure if it's particularly better or worse than the normal roll is.

 

[Soul Train]

Hey I know I'm a bit of an unknown but I'd like to help. I spend a lot of time with D3 in training mode messing around with him and mostly mess around with combo and mix-up stuff. I'm getting capture device soon so I can actually post some of the stuff I do.

Of course I'm far from anyone creditable but I'm hoping I can add a thing or two. This is my favorite character in this game with lots of fun and neat tricks I wanna help uncover.

Welcome! We're glad to have you. Just pick something from the OP under "Ideas and Concepts" or "In Development", try some of it yourself, and let us know what you find! Or, even better - come up with some new stuff of your own - video evidence is always great!

williamsga555 , any vid evidence? I swear I'm doing the motions as fast as humanly possible. It's not an easy tech; if you do it too fast, D3 does a ledge jump getup.

 

[williamsga555]

Won't have the chance to record anything until this weekend when I head back to college. Will see what I can do when I have the chance.

 

[shiningpaladin]

So here's what I've found since the 3DS days. I find myself in training mode more then anything and Cause I lack a buddy to test out this stuff locally, I sadly can't try with human input so I try to be as mindful as possible to things like Opponent DI, air dodge, etc.; . I tend to test these on characters with skinny hurtboxes since they tend cause moves like Dtilt and Fair to whiff for DDD so I feel if I can get something to work on them it should have potential with other characters. Just to be clear cause I test this out on CPUs most of what I find here I'm 90% sure are mix-ups at best. I spent a good amount labbing combos and putting this together. Hopeful something here is useful, and maybe even lead to more dubious DDD antics. I'll be happy if anything here even becomes considered a viable mix-up. In my opinion due to DDD poor speed I try to work on his neutral a lot and feel like keeping as much pressure as you can is optimal at low %, with the basic idea once you're in there stay in there. This, I think works best if DDD's moveset is looked at like a puzzle finding what piece fits into the next until you just can't, then move to the next phase. DDD has some powerful pressure options if you play your cards right.


0%/low% combos/mix-ups (tested on Shulk)

1) D throw> Full hop fair*> DI forword Nair>


Follow ups after Nair:

• Fgordo into uair/bair/nair - 56%/60%/56%

(This is depends if they end up flying towards you after gordo)

• Dash Attack? 49%

• Re-grab Dthrow into Uair/U gordo? = 46% /63%
  
  
• Dash into short hop weak Nair> Fair = 49%
  
  
• Jab 1 and 2 into grab

-------------------------

50-60%/combos/Mix-up (tested on Shulk at 60%)

I found that from the 50%-60% range is when combos become harder I did manage to find some things that are still possible. This is probably known but at higher % hitting with the weaker part of Nair causes opponent to pop up enough so DDD can still act out of it.


2)** D throw> Short Hop U Gordo> Follow DI to Dair (hopefully meteor and Autocancel)> FF U tilt> FH Bair/nair = 73%/69%



3) Weak Nair:


Follow ups after Weak Nair:

• Short Hop U Gordo= 91%
  
  
• Bair = 83%
  
  
• Near ledge short hop inhale off stage. Possibly guranteed?*** If so might be good on those with weak recovery. You gotta be fast though or they fall under you. It also misses if you full hop. Depending on the distance they fly out after, gordo could maybe be a punish I however have no way to confirm that since cpu seems to always go the same distance each time when you spit them out.

-------------------

*After Fair opponent can act out of it if they jump falling uair can be used as a read if they catch on. Not sure about air dodge.


** This combo I found is really dope but really hard and since most of it isn't guranteed since you have to read DI, get meteor, then hope you land on the frame Dair autocancels its novelty for the most part. So in all honesty its more of a Mix-up then a anything. I put it here cause its pretty fun if you get it.


*** I say this only because if hit stun really last long enough when DDD jumps up; They are at a possition that inhale is in what seems to be an adventagous position. Even if hitstun isnt there as long as I'm thinking it is airdodge = inhale, DI away seemingly still reaches (thanks to CPU always DI away, though I know CPU DI isn't the same as a humans) and DI towards DDD is just lol; Although jump might get them out of range just need to test that with another person. I think this might be a good edge guard option if true since it can used on roll or legde getup. It seems at 80% you can full hop inhale to still catch them.


Additinal notes:

• I found using U Gordo in the air where the hammer then the gordo cause the Opponent to seemingly always sends them behind you Possible tech?
  
  
• D Gordo seems to be good for juggles in the air at least from my experience. Esspecially if your opponent DIs away. Could lead to frame traps?
  
  
• At 110% hitting with the weak part of Nair seems to pop them up enough for U air to KO off the top. Seems like its gurenteed. But its a pretty simple thing so I think a lot of DDDs might know this already. (again tested on CPU shulk don't know its a legit set-up)
  
  
• An interesting thing I found while messing around with the canceled upb to bury opponents is that if you do an U gordo they always seem to pop out flying behind you right in range for Bair. You can also aim a D Gordo at them so they pop out away from you which if your fast enough you can boop them with fair which seems to kill stating at about 100% which is when the Canceled upB seem to be of any use. Not really practical but fun for style. Tested on Shulk.
  
  
• U gordo at close range does a lot of damage but mostly if both the hammer and the gordo hit. Doing like 22%?

 

[shiningpaladin]

Another thing I find interesting is to create the ability for DDD to pop shields in a reliable way. Cause has someone who can cause people to go on the Defensive Especially when gordos start flying. I once again probably won't be able to find a way without a local bud. I also don't feel online is to reliable for things of this nature since its probably gonna take optimal reaction to achieve.

 

[Girthquake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUSlUTpGPoo

Back again with some useful info.

Been labbing uses of the new stick method OnFullTilt found and I think I've come up with a few neat set ups.



First example is a Gordo Stick Trap without the new method for reference and because I think the clip is hilarious. The next 2 examples are staged exhibitions of a plausible use of the new method of Gordo sticking. I think Bair is a lot more practical since it covers a much wider range and you don't need to land a penny sized hitbox perfectly like Dair. Last example is a set up from an actual game.

Basically you want to set it up to where you're only using one or two air jumps to get the correct spacing to stick the Gordo, so that you have a few more jumps to stall time in the air forcing them to recover into the Gordo and having one last jump to space an aerial and combo out of the trap.

The last example is important imo, even if the set up isn't done flawlessly you still gain a lot out of it and there's a few different things that can happen from this trap like say people getting stage spiked (which appears to be untechable when I slow it down)

All in all I think tbh that there's very little data left that's necessary to back this proof of concept. Soul Train we should collab on this man for real hit me up in DM soon so we can arrange a time to do it

 

[OnFullTilt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUSlUTpGPoo

Back again with some useful info.

Been labbing uses of the new stick method OnFullTilt found and I think I've come up with a few neat set ups.



First example is a Gordo Stick Trap without the new method for reference and because I think the clip is hilarious. The next 2 examples are staged exhibitions of a plausible use of the new method of Gordo sticking. I think Bair is a lot more practical since it covers a much wider range and you don't need to land a penny sized hitbox perfectly like Dair. Last example is a set up from an actual game.

Basically you want to set it up to where you're only using one or two air jumps to get the correct spacing to stick the Gordo, so that you have a few more jumps to stall time in the air forcing them to recover into the Gordo and having one last jump to space an aerial and combo out of the trap.

The last example is important imo, even if the set up isn't done flawlessly you still gain a lot out of it and there's a few different things that can happen from this trap like say people getting stage spiked (which appears to be untechable when I slow it down)

All in all I think tbh that there's very little data left that's necessary to back this proof of concept. Soul Train we should collab on this man for real hit me up in DM soon so we can arrange a time to do it

Ok I have to watch the video again to see what actually happened. I couldn't see the screen for the latter half since I was literally crying from laughter.

Alright, watched it again and I'm tremendously happy that these do indeed seem to be followups, thanks a bunch for checking it out! Of particular note I think dair may still be great vs Villager since he freezes while his baloons pop individually, effectively putting him in tremendous hitlag when he upB's into the gordo from below?

I think in general dair may be a LITTLE more viable than it seems with tight execution of the strat (holding towards the stage as soon as gordo leaves the hammer and multijumping as soon as possible) since 1) even starting from ground level I think it's possible to sweetspot dair without needing the last multijump (not certain of this though!) leaving you a full one left to maneuver with and 2) since the opponent is vulnerable not just a little after and as they hit the gordo, but a little before as well. It may end up still that bair is almost always better though due to being far more consistent as you say (perhaps barring villager).

 

[Soul Train]

Hilarious and excellent stuff, Girthquake . We're right on the same wavelength with this - I have some very similar footage, also think Bair will be the optimal followup, and think this tech is almost ready. I pretty much have the technique down in step-by-step format - just need to record footage to go with it. Time to collab!

For the record: yes Dair can work, but I've been testing this with DI, and once the opponent is aware of this tech they WILL start DIing it differently. Thus the Bair followup. It all depends on how much time you have to set up.

Honestly I think the real application of this tech is less the frame data specifics and more the concept that Gordo sticks are practicable and repeatable from almost any (high) offstage position. I'm sure there's more to find, but I've got some stage specific tech on that (namely Battlefield and Smashville). So let's get the footage - I plan to be labbing/recording hard after dinner (EST) tomorrow - if you're around Girth let's do it.

Oh of course anyone else can jump in! We'll make it an unofficial D3 tech collab. Just come to the Discord group tomorrow after 7.

 

[shiningpaladin]

From watching @girthquakes vid i noticed he got a stick with D gordo. I went on FD to test it out and you can seem to do it if you full hop off and do a sorta reverse b i got it to stick pretty often probably not as good as flying above since its less risky and has quicker and better follows. Still it could be an option.

 

[DEX_]

I'm sorry i have no way to test this out because i can't really do PP consistently and i only have 3ds version and no sparring pals, but:

could F-smash on shield > dash> PP dash attack be an useful mixup? i'm preatty sure it would break shield if someone could manage to pull it of, and if not it would still poke the opponent because of the reduced shield size

it would be good after conditioning the opponent with f-smash on shield > dtilt/ ftilt/jab when they rush after you right after the hit

 

[Girthquake]

I'm sorry i have no way to test this out because i can't really do PP consistently and i only have 3ds version and no sparring pals, but:

could F-smash on shield > dash> PP dash attack be an useful mixup? i'm preatty sure it would break shield if someone could manage to pull it of, and if not it would still poke the opponent because of the reduced shield size

it would be good after conditioning the opponent with f-smash on shield > dtilt/ ftilt/jab when they rush after you right after the hit

In general I dunno about that but tbh that might be a good answer to people who adapt to the typical Fsmash baits into Dtilt and just wait for the dtilt. Worth trying.

 

[Silly Symphony]

I'm sorry i have no way to test this out because i can't really do PP consistently and i only have 3ds version and no sparring pals, but:

could F-smash on shield > dash> PP dash attack be an useful mixup? i'm preatty sure it would break shield if someone could manage to pull it of, and if not it would still poke the opponent because of the reduced shield size

it would be good after conditioning the opponent with f-smash on shield > dtilt/ ftilt/jab when they rush after you right after the hit

A mixup that shieldbreaks, I'll have to test this out. Thing is dash attack has a lot of upstart, so I don't know how long the reaction-time the opponent needs to trigger thinking "hey, this is not downtilt, this is a shieldbreaking dashattack". Still very interesting though.

I'm also trying out the sticky Gordo, but sometimes the problem is wall-clingers like Sheik can camp it out on vertical stages until the Gordo disappears, and the timing has to be as perfect as Dedede himself. Difficult, but I'm not giving up.

Oh, and I took a screenshot of Girthquake 's legendary Daddlespike, it's beautiful. http://i.imgur.com/VruT3re.png

 

[shiningpaladin]

So here's a video I put together using my phone camera to show the 1st combo I was talking about and as I figured its not a true combo but still fun to do and trash people with but I also show how easy it is for people to get out of it. Its kinda hard to execute most cause of playing on FG so I still feel that it can still be used in local play for mix ups. I found though subbing the Fair for Nair can still make my combo work but only at lowest of percent from what i did. So hope this is something to work on. I also show some other interesting things like potential setups and neutral. I think the combo itself might still work on opposing big bodys but didnt encounter any on FG.

Also I'm never using Shotcut for video editing ever again Windows movie maker on windows XP is better then that garabge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9hH-GoLDnE

 

[Girthquake]

I don't know if any of you dudes seen this, but one of my recommended videos was a combo vid. Not just any ol run of the mill FG jank. In fact no FG to be found. but true combos for EVERY character! ( well if you miss a tech) This includes Dedede! I honestly recommend seeing the whole vid, there's a lot of cool stuff.

Guy just what is shown has potential to do other jank things and not just whats shown.

You understand what SLHG means right? This is with custom items and settings smooth lander and heavy gravity. None of this is applicable to the current meta game, and while it's nice that you're wanting to take part in advancing the character you should really read the OP and go over the basic things that have already been said. Cluttering up this thread with misinformation isn't helpful.

 

[shiningpaladin]

You understand what SLHG means right? This is with custom items and settings smooth lander and heavy gravity. None of this is applicable to the current meta game, and while it's nice that you're wanting to take part in advancing the character you should really read the OP and go over the basic things that have already been said. Cluttering up this thread with misinformation isn't helpful.

Oh. My bad I didnt know that sorry. Thats disappointing, I was wondering why I couldnt do the combo.

Actually I do have a question. How you some of you guys test your stuff? I know girthquake plays against his stream, but do you guys have methods that are reliable? I wanna be the last person to drop misinformation. I was trying to find realiable Dthrow follow ups that OnFullTilt suggested which is one of my earlier post. If I find something have more caution i'll presenting the info.

 

[williamsga555]

For basic tech stuff (like gordo sticking, etc.) I use training mode.

Everything else is done offline against some friends for me. I'm not a fan of online play, so I tend to avoid it most of the time.

 

[DEX_]

about the uair spike

https://youtu.be/7htMJZyeASY

I got this ^ "uair spike" in for glory, it seems it hasn't enough knockback/hitstun to properly gimp the opponent unless done very low (cpt falcon was at about 115% and i was at about 100%)

I tried to replicate the uair spike shown in this video https://youtu.be/cSYYL5kHRqM , but i didn't behavioured like that, they probably patched it out at some point

it could work to connect other uairs the same way I did, as the opponent will probably expect to be launched away by the normal uair, but i don't see anything more in this tech...

 

[shiningpaladin]

For basic tech stuff (like gordo sticking, etc.) I use training mode.

Everything else is done offline against some friends for me. I'm not a fan of online play, so I tend to avoid it most of the time.

Yeah thats pretty much my case. Minus the local friends.

 

[jarbAin]

Down throw inhale on the ledge?

I made a little bit testing on down throw to inhale. It looked very unusable at first. When I did on training mode, the oppponent would just be thrown on the ground behind you because of the windbox of inhale. Then you couldn't recover from the inhale in time to hit.

I tested on some CPUs, they could hit me , jump over me, or then tech if they got thrown behind me before i could eat them.

THE IMPORTANT PART

When you do this near the ledge, while facing the stage, for some reason the opponents cannot be thrown behind you, and this often leads to successful inhale. Most CPU who could escape this otherwise, got now caught. Down throw to short hop inhale should work at something like 20%, and sometimes i got even fullhop inhale to work, but that might just be CPU stupidity.

NOTE

I did really insufficient research on this one, and kind of rushed to post this, because I want also someone more skilled than me to look at it.

Edit: I tried it a bit more and now highly doubt this that this ever works. Just got my hopes up when it seemed to work a bit.

 

[williamsga555]

So, further labbing on the gordo roll has taught me something interesting:

It is, for some reason, much easier for me to do the roll on 3DS compared to Wii U. I was not prepared for this. Will work on Wii U practice for it, and if I come up with something consistent, I'll try to record it.

 

[Silly Symphony]

I have decided to test out something nobody asked: how valuable Armored Jet Hammer is. The question nobody except myself asked me before is: just how much.

The following results are all from hitting Zelda in the exact middle (spawn) on Omega Gamer stage without DI, and I'll be referring to Jet Hammer as JH and Armored Jet Hammer as AJH

Normal fully charged JH kills at 52%, but nearly fully charged kills her at 42%. Those last split seconds matter a lot. Now these numbers aren't really interesting because fully charged Fsmash kills her from the same spot at 27%. So if you shield-break, that's your most optimal punish.

AJH kills stupid late when fully charged, at 112%. But nearly fulled charged kills at 65%. Extra info, partially charged AJH has extra wind-up frames when released, I can't exactly calculate how many.

On to shield damage, Fully charged JH does about 95%, AJH does about 80%. Nearly fully-charged JH and AJH both do less than fully charged. These numbers are useless in singles because your opponent's shield has recharged by that point.

My conclusion is that AJH, nearly fully charged, offers both launch protection and killing power, which might come in handy when fighting ground based opponents with throwing moves that can't really kill until stupid late, like Little Mac and Cloud who coincidentally enjoy early KO moves.