Dedede Matchup

[Cook]

So, Dedede boards (and myself) think the Dedede/Sheik matchup is fairly even. Either 55:45 or 60:40 Sheik. Whenever I say that to anyone else, though, they think I'm a complete moron and say Sheik destroys Dedede. What do you guys think?

 

[MoosyDoosy]

Yeah, 60:40 Sheik sounds about right. It's all about how smart the Dedede player plays. At a certain point though, the Sheik still wins through her superior data. The only thing Dedede has really going for him is his range and how well he uses his Gordos.

Edit: 60-40 isn't really "even". Sheik still has a strong advantage in the matchup.

 

[Harlow]

There's a very good D3 in my city and I'm practically the only Sheik, and coincidentally I seem to play him better than anyone else (despite not being considered the best player in my city).

I think it's pretty strongly in Sheik's favor. You just have to know Dedede. He has some weird hitboxes, particularly his smashes, and Sheik isn't as good as other characters at knocking the Gordos back. I just go under/over them.

 

[Master Raven]

Sheik wins pretty solid.

He is a big body so he is going to get hit and comboed easily. If he throws gordos, Nair is the most reliable option to reflect them. Needles are always your best friend. He's going to struggle hard against a defensive Sheik.

He takes a while to kill, but that's not much of a problem considering that's how the majority of Sheik's matchups are like, and in a way he's easier to kill than most others due to his large hurtbox.

 

[Cook]

Sheik wins pretty solid.

He is a big body so he is going to get hit and comboed easily. If he throws gordos, Nair is the most reliable option to reflect them. Needles are always your best friend. He's going to struggle hard against a defensive Sheik.

He takes a while to kill, but that's not much of a problem considering that's how the majority of Sheik's matchups are like, and in a way he's easier to kill than most others due to his large hurtbox.

Sheik can't really throw needles much though because gordos beat it and it takes forever. So it's a big risk.

 

[Joaco]

You should comment on why you think that the matchup is even or 60-40, good reasoning i mean.

 

[Cook]

You should comment on why you think that the matchup is even or 60-40, good reasoning i mean.

Sure!

The main thing is the difference in getting kills. Dedede will often live to 160 or 180. Sheik can die at 80 from dsmash with some rage, or maybe 90 or so from bair.

Sheik can hit Dedede easily, so she can usually wrack up damage quickly, but struggles with closing the stock. So Dedede will spend a lot of time with rage.

It's true that Sheik will be hitting Dedede way more than he hits her, but you have to look at how many hits Dedede needs to kill. He can get about 20% off a grab until she's at about about 50-60%. It's not too tough for him to get grabs, especially if she fairs a lot (she only needs to mess up the spacing a little). She can't just run away and needle because gordo beats needles and does 14%. If Dedede starts predicting aerial approaches he can stuff her with fair which is like 12%. Dedede just has to win a fraction of the exchanges and he can get her to kill percent first. His jab and dtilt can box her out ok, but she can punish them so Dedede will need to be able to predict somewhat. Jab to grab plus grab follow up is like 25%. At kill percent powershielding a fair gets him a dsmash, which can actually kill as low as 60% near the ledge with a lot of rage.

Dedede is really hard (as in almost impossible) to gimp. His dtilt can hit her when she appears from vanish to grab the ledge.

Sheik will pretty much be dominating a lot in the match cuz Sheik vs fat, but it only takes a few slight mistakes/reads to get her to kill percent, whereas she has to get him really high in percent without making mistakes. I know some people say matchups should be based on optimal play, but everyone makes small mistakes/gets read. That's just being realistic.

 

[Illuminose]

Sure!

The main thing is the difference in getting kills. Dedede will often live to 160 or 180. Sheik can die at 80 from dsmash with some rage, or maybe 90 or so from bair.

Sheik can hit Dedede easily, so she can usually wrack up damage quickly, but struggles with closing the stock. So Dedede will spend a lot of time with rage.

It's true that Sheik will be hitting Dedede way more than he hits her, but you have to look at how many hits Dedede needs to kill. He can get about 20% off a grab until she's at about about 50-60%. It's not too tough for him to get grabs, especially if she fairs a lot (she only needs to mess up the spacing a little). She can't just run away and needle because gordo beats needles and does 14%. If Dedede starts predicting aerial approaches he can stuff her with fair which is like 12%. Dedede just has to win a fraction of the exchanges and he can get her to kill percent first. His jab and dtilt can box her out ok, but she can punish them so Dedede will need to be able to predict somewhat. Jab to grab plus grab follow up is like 25%. At kill percent powershielding a fair gets him a dsmash, which can actually kill as low as 60% near the ledge with a lot of rage.

Dedede is really hard (as in almost impossible) to gimp. His dtilt can hit her when she appears from vanish to grab the ledge.

Sheik will pretty much be dominating a lot in the match cuz Sheik vs fat, but it only takes a few slight mistakes/reads to get her to kill percent, whereas she has to get him really high in percent without making mistakes. I know some people say matchups should be based on optimal play, but everyone makes small mistakes/gets read. That's just being realistic.

this isn't an awful description of the matchup, but i think it's overrating king dedede's strengths in this matchup a bit. getting grabs is pretty tough for dedede if sheik is playing this matchup defensively. sheiks don't usually get shield grabbed for fair, happens sometimes but not very much. although technically she can't just run away and needle, she can abuse stage control because dedede is awful at regaining stage control once sheik has it, and dedede has few options to really contest sheik's stage control. even though sheik can't edgeguard dedede, dedede still has to get off the ledge which isn't too easy for him so long as sheik isn't standing in a position to get hit by the up air from underneath the stage. sheik has few problems punishing dedede's ledge options and keeping him away from a position where he can even land clean hits on sheik. for this reason, even though it takes fewer hits for dedede to ko, dedede has too much trouble landing the clean hits to ko because sheik is very good at staying safe from these ko options. dedede doesn't have guaranteed setups. he basically has to get a hard read or hard punish to ko, which sheik makes it so difficult to do.

i think that a more accurate representation of this matchup is in the realm of 65:35 or maybe 70:30. 70:30 could be pushing it, but sheik outclasses dedede so badly in neutral, keeps him in disadvantaged positions so effectively, and combos dedede so hard that i can't really see this matchup going places for dedede. the ONLY thing dedede has to count on is sheik maybe having issues killing him and letting him land a ko with rage.

 

[MetaBhreat]

I've studied this matchup extensively and I don't think D3 has as big of an advantage as they think. On paper is looks good for D3 but in practice not so much.

Also while Sheiks cannot fully needle camp, Gordo's are easily reflected with low cooldown normals, so Sheik can still force the approach. If anything the camp can is dead even.

 

[Cook]

I've studied this matchup extensively and I don't think D3 has as big of an advantage as they think. On paper is looks good for D3 but in practice not so much.

Also while Sheiks cannot fully needle camp, Gordo's are easily reflected with low cooldown normals, so Sheik can still force the approach. If anything the camp can is dead even.

I doubt anyone thinks Dedede has the advantage. Just that it's fairly even.

 

[Stairs]

I would argue that it's about 70:30 in Sheiks favour, Sheik's superior frame data and combo game just wins, It's also much easier to chain move's as Sheik due to Dedede's size and weight. The only thing Dedede can do is zone with Gordo and try to space well, due to having better range. Although that's still not a huge advantage due to Sheiks high mobility and movement.

 

[Axel311]

Hard to judge since there's very few great Dededes but a ton of great Sheiks. Have we even seen the best Dedede's ever fight the best Sheiks? I very much doubt it.

But on paper if Sheik just plays lame and runs away and needle camps it's very solidly in her favor. I do think it's one of those matchups that realistically at your average tournament player skill levels it will be very even or in Dedede's favor because Sheik get punished hard for any mistakes - which players at your average tourney skill level will be making many more of. But at highest skill levels, Dedede loses solidly I'm sure just due to campability and frame data.

Also many players don't know the matchup. Playing rushdown against him is normally really bad. I co-main Dedede and I can't tell you how often I see people try to rush me down and edgeguard me. Camp Dedede always.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik can't really throw needles much though because gordos beat it and it takes forever. So it's a big risk.

I think the idea here was that Sheik can freely charge needles due to Gordo's not really stopping her, she can cancel the charge, roll away or shield. Sheik can't shoot needles from the other side of the stage and be an obnoxious nuisance against D3, but Gordo's don't suddenly invalidate the efficient and optimal ways of using needles (one of the main ones being as a punish for basically anything you do from fearing the rest of her kit and mobility).