Decloning DP: A good old fashioned Luigification

[Neo Zero]

Now now guys, please refrain from the heated comments. It's best we just respect each others views on the subject, agree to disagree and all that.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ LancerStaff
You know what, I'm not going to explain anything to you, you're just going to **** on it no matter what, you've done nothing but say **** about everyone and everything they say for this entire thread.

Guess what genius, characters don't need a gimmick. Tell me what is pits gimmick? He doesn't have one! Ganon doesn't, Ike doesn't, falco doesn't. If we went by these rules you made up we'd need to remove over half the cast. You say I can't tape together two moves? What is ganon's side special? A grab taped on to the end of raptor boost, what's his up special? Falcons with a punch on the end.

And you say moves can't be similar at all, by your definition nothing pit does is unique, no pits should exist according to the criteria you made up. Upperdash arm? It's raptor boost with reflect. Guardian orbiters? They're just a reflect with a push hitbox. Power of flight? It's extreme speed stripped of aura effect with less ability to aim. His bow? It's a sideways PK thunder with less aim that can't hit you.

But you know what? Not every move needs to be completely different and alien to everything else in the game, and for that matter it can't, the smash team wouldn't finish 10 fighters a game if they used your insane criteria.


They are physically the same, but that doesn't mean they fight the same way... The defining factor of how they fight is the weapon they're using, so why make them the same when you can have one use different weapons?


That's how it works in game? Ya that's how the charge works, but in game you can move while firing, yours isn't any closer to the in game one than mine.

And who said mine had to have long startup lag? I'd just give it decent endlag.



Why would you only change one or two moves? That's not luigification that's making him the doc of puts. Luigi has two entirely different specials and small changes all around the board, that's what makes him unique.

Pit's gimmick is his arrows and generally being a pain in the rear. Simply put, Pit's arrows can be used to camp properly while PK Thunder cannot because of the starting angle and lag differences. He mostly has the attributes of a well-rounded character, but trades KO potential for recovery. Try again.

My criteria is based off of what Sakurai has said. Characters that solely cobb gimmicks off of other should either be a clone or not in the game at all. Only reason Mewtwo is in the game now is because he's a veteran. Every single character (besides the aforementioned Mewtwo) has a gimmick, and thus every new addition needs a gimmick. Understand? You can go through the entire roster searching for characters that don't have gimmicks but I'll just point them out for you. You really think I haven't thought this through?

Why make them different and take time from somebody actually unique when you can make him a clone?

Doesn't matter. Judging from Mewtwo and Lucas we won't be seeing any big changes when Pittwo returns.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Pit's gimmick is his arrows and generally being a pain in the rear. Simply put, Pit's arrows can be used to camp properly while PK Thunder cannot because of the starting angle and lag differences. He mostly has the attributes of a well-rounded character, but trades KO potential for recovery. Try again.

My criteria is based off of what Sakurai has said. Characters that solely cobb gimmicks off of other should either be a clone or not in the game at all. Only reason Mewtwo is in the game now is because he's a veteran. Every single character (besides the aforementioned Mewtwo) has a gimmick, and thus every new addition needs a gimmick. Understand? You can go through the entire roster searching for characters that don't have gimmicks but I'll just point them out for you. You really think I haven't thought this through?

Why make them different and take time from somebody actually unique when you can make him a clone?

Doesn't matter. Judging from Mewtwo and Lucas we won't be seeing any big changes when Pittwo returns.

You're gonna have to explain this one further, because I don't believe EVERY character has a gimmick. If they do, it's not apparent at all. Or are you just using your own interpretation of what a gimmick actually is?

Relevance and popularity are also included in Sakurai's criteria. It's not like gimmicks alone can just cancel out the other two.

 

[disfrozen]

That's how it works in game? Ya that's how the charge works, but in game you can move while firing, yours isn't any closer to the in game one than mine.

And who said mine had to have long startup lag? I'd just give it decent endlag.

Why would you only change one or two moves? That's not luigification that's making him the doc of puts. Luigi has two entirely different specials and small changes all around the board, that's what makes him unique.

First, I actually never mentioned startup lag.
Second, I was saying that walking while shooting, if you could keep it up for more than a few shots, could just be bad because of how much power of the character's power budget you'd have to spend on it. If you really want it to be a walking shot, fine, but you'd have to lose being able to aim the staff, which I honestly think is much more useful and unique than another walking triple shot. And before you ask, I'm referring here to power budgets.

Why would I change one or two moves? Already said it. It's as much as you can change without making him a complete different character. And I'm fine with him having Doc level differences, or a bit more. Remember Dark Pit is a clone of Pit, and that Luigi is not a clone of Mario, he's Mario's brother, so please don't try to use that as an argument.

TL;DR: The only changes you should make are his Nspec being the DP Staff (supposedly his signature weapon), his air speed/weight, and his dash attack being the flying kick. Why? Because he is a clone of Pit.

 

[Braydon]

First, I actually never mentioned startup lag.

Large startups are just asking for the special to be unused. It makes moves way too situational. Ending lag is better, because short startup lag and long ending lag means a good counterplay option, in that if you use it properly you'll get rewarded, and you'll get punished by using it stupidly.

Hmm... Never mentioned startup?

Second, I was saying that walking while shooting, if you could keep it up for more than a few shots, could just be bad because of how much power of the character's power budget you'd have to spend on it. If you really want it to be a walking shot, fine, but you'd have to lose being able to aim the staff, which I honestly think is much more useful and unique than another walking triple shot. And before you ask, I'm referring here to power budgets.

Why would I change one or two moves? Already said it. It's as much as you can change without making him a complete different character. And I'm fine with him having Doc level differences, or a bit more. Remember Dark Pit is a clone of Pit, and that Luigi is not a clone of Mario, he's Mario's brother, so please don't try to use that as an argument.

TL;DR: The only changes you should make are his Nspec being the DP Staff (supposedly his signature weapon), his air speed/weight, and his dash attack being the flying kick. Why? Because he is a clone of Pit.

I never said it was a triple shot... Also I said it slowed you somewhat so it doesn't need to have extreme lag and wouldn't be op.

... I repeat, it doesn't matter that pit and DP are clones because their fighting style is based on what weapon they are using, so the two can fight entirely differently. So no making him the same because he is a clone of pit doesn't make any sense at all.

You're gonna have to explain this one further, because I don't believe EVERY character has a gimmick. If they do, it's not apparent at all. Or are you just using your own interpretation of what a gimmick actually is?

He's making it up as he goes and just saying whatever would make me wrong, he's contradicted himself repeatedly he just changes his story to say I'm wrong.

Pit's gimmick is his arrows and generally being a pain in the rear. Simply put, Pit's arrows can be used to camp properly while PK Thunder cannot because of the starting angle and lag differences. He mostly has the attributes of a well-rounded character, but trades KO potential for recovery. Try again.

My criteria is based off of what Sakurai has said. Characters that solely cobb gimmicks off of other should either be a clone or not in the game at all. Only reason Mewtwo is in the game now is because he's a veteran. Every single character (besides the aforementioned Mewtwo) has a gimmick, and thus every new addition needs a gimmick. Understand? You can go through the entire roster searching for characters that don't have gimmicks but I'll just point them out for you. You really think I haven't thought this through?

Why make them different and take time from somebody actually unique when you can make him a clone?

Doesn't matter. Judging from Mewtwo and Lucas we won't be seeing any big changes when Pittwo returns.

So pit's arrows are unique because the angle and speed but my ogre club is the same as every other melee charge move despite having the projectile on max charge? Funny how the criteria magically change so I'm always wrong. Hell you even said it was just like aura sphere as well, how is it the same as two completely different moves at the same time?

Pit has no gimmick. Arrows are not a gimmick, low kill power and high recovery are characteristics not a gimmick, they're also not at all unique, plenty of characters have low kill power and high recovery.

Mewtwo is not unique now? Who the hell is like mewtwo at all?

And you want to know if I think you thought this through? I know you didn't, and I don't even think you're capable of thinking it through. You're just bloody minded and get off on talking down to people and talking **** about everything they say. So there, that's what I think.

 

[LancerStaff]

You're gonna have to explain this one further, because I don't believe EVERY character has a gimmick. If they do, it's not apparent at all. Or are you just using your own interpretation of what a gimmick actually is?

Relevance and popularity are also included in Sakurai's criteria. It's not like gimmicks alone can just cancel out the other two.

Just point out which ones and I'll explain.

And kinda proves you wrong. They were never popular and their game isn't a classic by any stretch of the imagination. Yet here they are, getting in over Mac and Pit because they had a more apparent gimmick.

So pit's arrows are unique because the angle and speed but my ogre club is the same as every other melee charge move despite having the projectile on max charge? Funny how the criteria magically change so I'm always wrong. Hell you even said it was just like aura sphere as well, how is it the same as two completely different moves at the same time?

Pit has no gimmick. Arrows are not a gimmick, low kill power and high recovery are characteristics not a gimmick, they're also not at all unique, plenty of characters have low kill power and high recovery.

Mewtwo is not unique now? Who the hell is like mewtwo at all?

And you want to know if I think you thought this through? I know you didn't, and I don't even think you're capable of thinking it through. You're just bloody minded and get off on talking down to people and talking **** about everything they say. So there, that's what I think.

Pit's arrows are his gimmick because they actually work as a projectile. PK Thunder fires slow enough to be dodged every single time, and has virtually no use in neutral. People going up against Pit have to approach because between how fast they are and how they can be redirected. Even outside of that it's essentially free hits, free hits that can only be attained due to it's speed and ability to curve.

The difference being that your Ogre Club gimmick is completely worthless and wouldn't be character defining if it wasn't. Pit should be shooting like twenty arrows a match.

As a generalization, all but Sonic have high KO power and/or have relatively easy to land KO moves but are made of glass. Pick one out and I'll elaborate further. The recovery is just to help diffuse the glassy-ness. Not that it helps Kirby that much... Pit is durable without being a heavyweight. Sonic isn't your typical character, but his thing is mindgames and generally trying to be everywhere at once. If I remember correctly he's a good deal lighter then Pit, and his recovery isn't as versatile.

Mewtwo is a glass cannon, much like are. But the first three have obvious things that set them appart, while the last one is a straight glass cannon like Mewtwo is. Mewtwo's gimmicks have been covered. Warp is a better Teleport, Shadow Ball is a better Charge Shot/Aura Sphere that doesn't run on Aura, Disable is just another stun move, and Confusion is the Super Cape taped to a grab.

I've been talking about moveset uniqueness and how important it is to Smash for years... I've thought it through. There's no magical "hole in my plan" or thing I've forgotten, I've gone over the whole roster.

 

[disfrozen]

Hmm... Never mentioned startup?

If we're talking about hypocrisy...

And who said mine had to have long startup lag? I'd just give it decent endlag..

If not I'd like him to have a fairly high power shot with a large aiming arc but a charge animation on the start giving it large start up.

Anyway...

I never said it was a triple shot... Also I said it slowed you somewhat so it doesn't need to have extreme lag and wouldn't be op.

... I repeat, it doesn't matter that pit and DP are clones because their fighting style is based on what weapon they are using, so the two can fight entirely differently. So no making him the same because he is a clone of pit doesn't make any sense at all.

tbh, it wouldn't be OP, it would actually be UP, because of people getting free punishes on you every single time you tried to use it, and essentially making it useless. How do you intend to fix that? Start-up lag and no end-lag? Free punish. Short start-up and long endlag? Still free punish. Lowered walking speed while using? Free punish. You get the idea.
That's why the R.O.B way of charging (which is also how it charges in the game) would be a better option, combined with a quick start-up, good knockback, and ending lag similar to the Guiding Arrows, or Thoron's (which would also be landing lag, if used in air).

The point is, Dark Pit's whole theme is being a clone of Pit. That's even on his name, that's why he's called Dark Pit and not some other edgy name. And I said, his moveset is fine as it is, but some major differentiations would be appreciated (Nspec, air speed, f-throw, dash attack), because it has been shown it works. This way, Dark Pit's gimmick would be spacing, and keeping people away until you can either gimp or outright kill with your sniper staff, or maybe even having less utility than Pit, but having an easier time finishing stocks (Electroshock launch angle being more lateral, also being able to be followed up with a Nspec charge shot, f-throw, etc).

And it actually does make sense. He is, after all, Pit's mirror image. That's why, even when using other weapons, there'll be huge similarities.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Just point out which ones and I'll explain.

Alright, fine. Let's start with the Original 12. Though I have a feeling that your definition of a gimmick won't match up with mine.

And kinda proves you wrong. They were never popular and their game isn't a classic by any stretch of the imagination. Yet here they are, getting in over Mac and Pit because they had a more apparent gimmick.

It's possible that was just one of those exceptions that happened to catch Sakurai's eye, I don't know, it's not like I can just ask the man why he chose them specifically. I mean, why was chosen? I remember hearing that Sakurai just likes him a lot but that's just what I've heard, I don't know if it's the SOLE reason. Though I'm still not convinced that 's gimmick was the only reason for their inclusion, it may have been a factor, yes, but as a true requirement I'm not so sure.

You know what? I'll just direct you to this article so you can make of it what you will.

 

[LancerStaff]

Alright, fine. Let's start with the Original 12. Though I have a feeling that your definition of a gimmick won't match up with mine.

It's possible that was just one of those exceptions that happened to catch Sakurai's eye, I don't know, it's not like I can just ask the man why he chose them specifically. I mean, why was chosen? I remember hearing that Sakurai just likes him a lot but that's just what I've heard, I don't know if it's the SOLE reason. Though I'm still not convinced that 's gimmick was the only reason for their inclusion, it may have been a factor, yes, but as a true requirement I'm not so sure.

You know what? I'll just direct you to this article so you can make of it what you will.

Mario is your all-around guy. Luigi is a clone who got more differences over time, slowly becoming an above average character with an awkward recovery. Link is a pretty heavy character with tons of projectiles for camping and attacks to push people back. DK has just about everything except recovery and his speed is lacking. Pikachu is a typical fragile speedster. Kirby is really about the copy ability. Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon are glass cannons focusing on aerials and speed respectively. Ness is a glass cannon with a finicky recovery. (SSB64 wasn't the most original as far as character design goes...) Fox falls and recovers like a heavy but with average weight and has good moves to make up for it. Yoshi is all-around solid with a great recovery... As long as you make it the first time. Samus has her Charge Shot resulting in a general keep-away playstyle.

Just keeping it brief, but I believe I have it covered.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Mario is your all-around guy. Luigi is a clone who got more differences over time, slowly becoming an above average character with an awkward recovery. Link is a pretty heavy character with tons of projectiles for camping and attacks to push people back. DK has just about everything except recovery and his speed is lacking. Pikachu is a typical fragile speedster. Kirby is really about the copy ability. Jigglypuff and Captain Falcon are glass cannons focusing on aerials and speed respectively. Ness is a glass cannon with a finicky recovery. (SSB64 wasn't the most original as far as character design goes...) Fox falls and recovers like a heavy but with average weight and has good moves to make up for it. Yoshi is all-around solid with a great recovery... As long as you make it the first time. Samus has her Charge Shot resulting in a general keep-away playstyle.

Just keeping it brief, but I believe I have it covered.

See, a bunch of those you described I don't identify as having actual gimmicks, more like specific stat distributions( for power) or lack thereof( ). They don't really have anything that they need to revolve around. Now characters like and (to an extent, I'm not sure how much users make use of her projectiles) I can agree with you, as they have a heavy reliance on their projectile game. I agree with as well, his copy ability effectively changes his playstyle. may be quicker than most and has electrical powers, but as for being an actual gimmick I'm not seeing it. At most I can see its odd special properties being somewhat gimmicky. is a bit up in the air for me. being a rushdown character is not something I consider to be a gimmick, just a stat distribution that allows such a playstyle. Same goes for , I don't think of his stats as a gimmick, just stats. has a bit of an odd projectile game, so I guess that counts for something. has a higher jump with a few super armor frames, that's all.

I see a gimmick as something much more significant. Something that a character's performance actively revolves around. 's limited resources, 's aura mechanic, / and their Pikmin, 's Monado Arts, things like that, but that's me. Strictly speaking, does a character really NEED a gimmick to be worthwhile? I wouldn't think so.

 

[Braydon]

If we're talking about hypocrisy...

That was an alternate, completely different move... So no, it's not hypocritical at all.

tbh, it wouldn't be OP, it would actually be UP, because of people getting free punishes on you every single time you tried to use it, and essentially making it useless. How do you intend to fix that? Start-up lag and no end-lag? Free punish. Short start-up and long endlag? Still free punish. Lowered walking speed while using? Free punish. You get the idea.
That's why the R.O.B way of charging (which is also how it charges in the game) would be a better option, combined with a quick start-up, good knockback, and ending lag similar to the Guiding Arrows, or Thoron's (which would also be landing lag, if used in air).

The point is, Dark Pit's whole theme is being a clone of Pit. That's even on his name, that's why he's called Dark Pit and not some other edgy name. And I said, his moveset is fine as it is, but some major differentiations would be appreciated (Nspec, air speed, f-throw, dash attack), because it has been shown it works. This way, Dark Pit's gimmick would be spacing, and keeping people away until you can either gimp or outright kill with your sniper staff, or maybe even having less utility than Pit, but having an easier time finishing stocks (Electroshock launch angle being more lateral, also being able to be followed up with a Nspec charge shot, f-throw, etc).

And it actually does make sense. He is, after all, Pit's mirror image. That's why, even when using other weapons, there'll be huge similarities.

So what you're telling me is it is impossible to balance a shot you can fire while moving? It will just magically not work no matter what the frame data is? it will just be magically punished no matter what. Brilliant.

And guess what, the move you made, is game breaking op. Firing 3 falco level shots with aim at autoreticle speed? You just doubled the output of an existing attack and gave it aim, it would destroy everything.

Have you even played KIU? The weapon in question changes everything. No there wouldn't need to be any similarities at all. Tell me, what exactly is similar between a palm and a club? What's similar between a staff and an arm?

Pit's arrows are his gimmick because they actually work as a projectile. PK Thunder fires slow enough to be dodged every single time, and has virtually no use in neutral. People going up against Pit have to approach because between how fast they are and how they can be redirected. Even outside of that it's essentially free hits, free hits that can only be attained due to it's speed and ability to curve.

A working projectile is a unique gimmick now? Isn't that the same as samus? Oh wait a minute, it's not a gimmick...

The difference being that your Ogre Club gimmick is completely worthless and wouldn't be character defining if it wasn't. Pit should be shooting like twenty arrows a match.

Oh I see, the great lancerstaff has decreed it's worthless, and therefor it is and I'm stupid, because the great all knowing lancerstaff says so, all hail the great god lancerstaff and the decrees he yanks out of his ass. You haven't come even remotely close to showing that it doesn't work, you've just established you suck to bad to use a charge attack.

As a generalization, all but Sonic have high KO power and/or have relatively easy to land KO moves but are made of glass. Pick one out and I'll elaborate further. The recovery is just to help diffuse the glassy-ness. Not that it helps Kirby that much... Pit is durable without being a heavyweight. Sonic isn't your typical character, but his thing is mindgames and generally trying to be everywhere at once. If I remember correctly he's a good deal lighter then Pit, and his recovery isn't as versatile.

Kirby has high KO power? Jiggly has high KO power? What are you on?

Mewtwo is a glass cannon, much like

Okay that's it, you're officially mentally ill. Have you even played smash before you decided to come in here saying how I am wrong about everything? Falcon has a weight of 104, he is in the same class as link, mewtwo has a weight of 72, the second lowest, you think they fall into the same durability class? Falcon is upper mid weight, tied for 11-13th heaviest, he's not made of glass.

I've been talking about moveset uniqueness and how important it is to Smash for years... I've thought it through. There's no magical "hole in my plan" or thing I've forgotten, I've gone over the whole roster.

Congratulations, you talked for years and somehow still manage to know nothing. I'm sorry I didn't realize how long you blabbled on made you automatically right despite the fact that what you're saying is contrary to reality and makes no ****ing sense.

I see a gimmick as something much more significant. Something that a character's performance actively revolves around. 's limited resources, 's aura mechanic, / and their Pikmin, 's Monado Arts, things like that, but that's me. Strictly speaking, does a character really NEED a gimmick to be worthwhile? I wouldn't think so.

Well that's the definition of a character gimmick, the crap lancer staff is saying was just yanked out of his ass.

You know what? I'll just direct you to this article so you can make of it what you will.

Just direct him to your ignore list... It's the best thing to do with trolls. I can't believe this guy is anything else after he declares falcon a glass canon.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Well that's the definition of a character gimmick, the crap lancer staff is saying was just yanked out of his ***.

To be fair, he has his thoughts on the matter just as I do. As for who's right or wrong, I can't say for sure as I said already that I don't have the same definition as he does, just mine.

Just direct him to your ignore list... It's the best thing to do with trolls. I can't believe this guy is anything else after he declares falcon a glass canon.

While it might be satisfying to do that I don't believe he has truly warranted that yet. I don't agree with everything he has said so far, but, you know, opinions. Though I will say that calling the Captain a glass cannon is a bit of a stretch, I mean, I don't exactly see him as frail if that's what the phrase "glass cannon" means.

 

[Neo Zero]

Last warning guys. Please be civil in your discussions on this issue. Any more attacks on a persons opinions or on the person themselves will see this thread being closed.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I never knew people felt so strongly about decloning. I wonder how many fights happened in the process of Melee to Brawl and if someone quit over Falco's reflector changing.

 

[Sucumbio]

He doesn't have anything that really separates him from Pit at the moment, which is the problem being addressed.

I have read this over and over since the game came out and yet, if I ever use Pit the match goes totally different than if I use Dark Pit. Moreover I normally lose most matchups w/Pit, but when I use DP, I win or draw. It could totally be a mental thing, but there's just something about Dark Pit that seems more rush-down, quicker, etc. Even though the evidence is to the contrary. I dunno how to explain it, or why this is the case, but if anyone gets some hard data on their differences that matter I'd love to understand it.

 

[LancerStaff]

See, a bunch of those you described I don't identify as having actual gimmicks, more like specific stat distributions( for power) or lack thereof( ). They don't really have anything that they need to revolve around. Now characters like and (to an extent, I'm not sure how much users make use of her projectiles) I can agree with you, as they have a heavy reliance on their projectile game. I agree with as well, his copy ability effectively changes his playstyle. may be quicker than most and has electrical powers, but as for being an actual gimmick I'm not seeing it. At most I can see its odd special properties being somewhat gimmicky. is a bit up in the air for me. being a rushdown character is not something I consider to be a gimmick, just a stat distribution that allows such a playstyle. Same goes for , I don't think of his stats as a gimmick, just stats. has a bit of an odd projectile game, so I guess that counts for something. has a higher jump with a few super armor frames, that's all.

I see a gimmick as something much more significant. Something that a character's performance actively revolves around. 's limited resources, 's aura mechanic, / and their Pikmin, 's Monado Arts, things like that, but that's me. Strictly speaking, does a character really NEED a gimmick to be worthwhile? I wouldn't think so.

They're gimmicks. "An ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal." Essentially they're ways to convince people to play as a character, and stat distributions count. By this definition, virtually every full character has one. And again, they're necessary.

Originally I'd say "every character has something that sets them appart" but "gimmick" is just that much less of a mouthful. Mario's balanced stats set him apart, for example.

A working projectile is a unique gimmick now? Isn't that the same as samus? Oh wait a minute, it's not a gimmick...

Oh I see, the great lancerstaff has decreed it's worthless, and therefor it is and I'm stupid, because the great all knowing lancerstaff says so, all hail the great god lancerstaff and the decrees he yanks out of his ***. You haven't come even remotely close to showing that it doesn't work, you've just established you suck to bad to use a charge attack.

Kirby has high KO power? Jiggly has high KO power? What are you on?

Okay that's it, you're officially mentally ill. Have you even played smash before you decided to come in here saying how I am wrong about everything? Falcon has a weight of 104, he is in the same class as link, mewtwo has a weight of 72, the second lowest, you think they fall into the same durability class? Falcon is upper mid weight, tied for 11-13th heaviest, he's not made of glass.

Congratulations, you talked for years and somehow still manage to know nothing. I'm sorry I didn't realize how long you blabbled on made you automatically right despite the fact that what you're saying is contrary to reality and makes no ****ing sense.

Well that's the definition of a character gimmick, the crap lancer staff is saying was just yanked out of his ***.


Just direct him to your ignore list... It's the best thing to do with trolls. I can't believe this guy is anything else after he declares falcon a glass canon.

Because Samus can totally redirect her shots to any point on the stage without moving...

You haven't proved it would work either.

Kirby has his Hammer and his Smashes are easy to land hence the and/or. Jiggs has Rest and Bair.

Captain Falcon is highly vulnerable to combos and has a poor recovery. He's glass for different reasons.

There's still people that respect my opinions, like SimonBarSinister. Clearly I'm not stupid.

I never knew people felt so strongly about decloning. I wonder how many fights happened in the process of Melee to Brawl and if someone quit over Falco's reflector changing.

People tend to not like their characters to be made worse for arbitrary reasons. And there's a reason Falco was re-cloned for PM.

I have read this over and over since the game came out and yet, if I ever use Pit the match goes totally different than if I use Dark Pit. Moreover I normally lose most matchups w/Pit, but when I use DP, I win or draw. It could totally be a mental thing, but there's just something about Dark Pit that seems more rush-down, quicker, etc. Even though the evidence is to the contrary. I dunno how to explain it, or why this is the case, but if anyone gets some hard data on their differences that matter I'd love to understand it.

Not even datamining helped me come up with anything. I suppose he's more rushdown by the virtue that he has to make do with his weaker arrows... But that's it.

 

[Sucumbio]

Yeah, and his side b knocks back at a different angle more diagonally than pit (which is a disadvantage bc its not a good ko move). I dunno it's confusing but it's all good I just stay using DP.

 

[disfrozen]

So what you're telling me is it is impossible to balance a shot you can fire while moving? It will just magically not work no matter what the frame data is? it will just be magically punished no matter what. Brilliant.

And guess what, the move you made, is game breaking op. Firing 3 falco level shots with aim at autoreticle speed? You just doubled the output of an existing attack and gave it aim, it would destroy everything.

Have you even played KIU? The weapon in question changes everything. No there wouldn't need to be any similarities at all. Tell me, what exactly is similar between a palm and a club? What's similar between a staff and an arm?

I didn't say it's impossible to balance, just that I don't think it'd be a very good gimmick. I was mentioning how easy it would be to punish, given the drawbacks it'd have to have if you made it a walking shot. Unless you want to make it like Megaman's Stilt, in which case you would lose a lot of damage, and the aiming capabilities.

It's not game breaking op, because it's not three Falco blaster shots. I was using it as an example of hitstun, and I mentioned Autoreticle for the appearance of the shots, not their speed. They would probably have charged arrow speed, and low hitstun, around the level of Falco's blaster. Probably lower. And you aim it like... Link's boomerang, or R.O.B's laser, by tilting the stick, so it isn't even complicated to aim.

Yes, I have played Uprising. Played it again just yesterday, in fact.
And I meant similarities between Pit and Dark Pit, not the weapons. Or more precisely, in the usage of those weapons. They would use them pretty much the same way, because of them being mirror images.

 

[MarioMeteor]

This comment has been wiped from existence.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

They're gimmicks. "An ingenious or novel device, scheme, or stratagem, especially one designed to attract attention or increase appeal." Essentially they're ways to convince people to play as a character, and stat distributions count. By this definition, virtually every full character has one. And again, they're necessary.

Originally I'd say "every character has something that sets them appart" but "gimmick" is just that much less of a mouthful. Mario's balanced stats set him apart, for example.

I think this is where we diverge on our own ideas of gimmicks. You see every character as having something that separates them from the rest no matter what that might be. To me, that makes them too common. I see a gimmick as more of a rare and significant trait or feature that makes certain characters much more interesting to use. I use a few of them, like and for example. I see them as characters with gimmicks that truly stand out from the rest. A character like is just too basic for me to call gimmicky, I mean he's just . Stats are just.....stats, which just determine speed, power, weight and other factors like that. I don't believe we need gimmicky characters to validate their inclusion. I use , and he's just a lighter and floatier version of with some different moves, whom I don't consider to be gimmicky either. Yet I find him very worthwhile.

Captain Falcon is highly vulnerable to combos and has a poor recovery. He's glass for different reasons.

I think "punching bag" is a more appropriate term.

There's still people that respect my opinions, like SimonBarSinister. Clearly I'm not stupid.

We may have our differences, but coming into a thread to lay into someone is not how I roll. ...Unless one does something to warrant it.

People tend to not like their characters to be made worse for arbitrary reasons. And there's a reason Falco was re-cloned for PM.

Right off-hand I can't imagine why they would do something like that as I found to be formidable as is. But truth be told, I never messed with PM so I can't say much about it.

 

[Braydon]

Yes, I have played Uprising. Played it again just yesterday, in fact.
And I meant similarities between Pit and Dark Pit, not the weapons. Or more precisely, in the usage of those weapons. They would use them pretty much the same way, because of them being mirror images.

But why does that matter? There's enough weapons for them to have different weapons and play different.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

how about they keep dark pit's moveset but change's pit's moveset?So that way he techinally isn't a clone.

 

[LancerStaff]

how about they keep dark pit's moveset but change's pit's moveset?So that way he techinally isn't a clone.

That comes down to the exact same problem. Changing a character for change is bad. And Pit doesn't have anything interesting moveset wise over Dark Pit either.

 

[disfrozen]

But why does that matter? There's enough weapons for them to have different weapons and play different.

Time reasons, I guess. And because people would say that Sakurai was favoring his own game over others by giving it more representation and whatnot. People are weird like that.

 

[VeteranUnderdog]

Dark pit is a literal clone, so i dont see any moveset changes being possible. He only took like an hour to make anyway.

 

[ZephyrZ]

So I intended to avoid this thread, but a thought had crossed my mind.

We're probably getting Roy as DLC, yes?
Initially he was added for similar reasons; an easy way to inflate the roster. He was also included to promote the next FE game at the time, but either way, there wasn't much reason to make him a Smash Bros main-stay, and this is likely part of the reason he was cut from Brawl.

The fact that he's coming back, despite from the lack of reason aside from fan support, increases my confidence that we may or may not see Lucy, Pittooy, and Doc in future Smash games, as every clone character not named Pichu is (supposedly) coming back for this one.

It may not guarantee a decloning of any sort, but it does increase his chances of returning, at least.

Dark pit is a literal clone, so i dont see any moveset changes being possible. He only took like an hour to make anyway.

Have you played Uprising? There are plenty of different weapons to pull from.
Canons, claws, and palms aren't even used in Smash Bros in any form as of now; they could easily implement those into Dark Pit's moveset.