Decloning DP: A good old fashioned Luigification

[Guybrush20X6]

In a given hypothetical Smash 5 how do you think Dark Pit and Pit should be differentiated?

First and foremost, I think his standard weapon, that he uses for his a moves, should be his staff. He'd still pull out a Silver Bow for his B attack but puts it away when he's done.

His Final Smash would be the same in execution but would be renamed something like Charge Shot so that he can make use of short range blasts in his new moveset.

What do you think?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I don't like the idea of him using his staff for A attacks. It's not a melee weapon; it's an extremely specialized ranged weapon.
Short-ranged blast wouldn't work either; the Dark Pit staff, like most staves, has incredible range. Instead, I think it should be his neutral special. It could be a high-speed, decently powerful projectile that can't be curved. I do not object to the idea of him using it for certain melee attacks, however, Imagine him using it for a Forward Tilt with an even longer attack range. I just don't think it'd fit well as his main weapon.

I'd swap Guardian Orbitars for something such as the Electroshock Orbitars, and make them work like the Impact Orbitars or something.

This grab could use the Violet Palm, which he uses in Chapter 6 of Uprising. It could be long ranged and then launch projectiles as follow ups after the throws.

 

[Z-Bo]

I personally think DP should use the staff, but exchange it for a TON of other weapons as well. The Silver Bow, of course, but also the Violet Palm, EZ Cannon, Ogre Club and First Blade, as he uses all of them in Chapter 6. Also the drop-kick from Chapter 5 and a different Final Smash. I say use the Lightning Chariot for a OHKO Dragoon-style attack.

 

[Burruni]

I'm fine with the Up B and Side B being as they are, neutral B should have SOMETHING to make it more differentiated (stronger damage but slower projectile speed?) if not just swapped to the Dark Pit staff itself.

Grabs should be switched to a palm and so on.

Down B? Why not have it be a Cannon and launch an explosive that's a middle ground between the 's mine launcher and PK/Arc-Fire. (Think the back-dash charge shot of the weapon line)

Do this and swap around some normal A moves for usage of a blade or a staff and he'd be PERFECTLY fine as a semi-clone.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Some ideas I have:

• Make his Neutral B the DP Staff and have it follow the mechanics of Uprising, namely the continuous/charge shot logic(press it frequently to fire off a short burst of projectiles, or wait a while and then press it for a powerful long-range blast). OR if we keep the Silver Bow, it should be modified a bit. As of now, the shots themselves act more like(and look like)the Darkness Bow shots rather than the Silver Bow. The Bow's shots are powerful but slow, and they do more damage up close. And contrary to Smash, the Silver Bow has high homing. Then the DP Staff can go to Side B.
  
• Someone suggested using the EZ Cannon for his Down B, which could work, but I think he could use something like the Poseidon Cannon, which would launch surges of water that do damage as well as push the target away.
• His DSmash could be the Gemini Orbitars, which kind of spiral around as they are launched away.
• The FSmash could be the slow, but destructive Ogre Club.
• Dash Attack: a fast swipe ahead with the Viridi Claws(he's apparently a part of her Forces of Nature now, so I guess that works).
• The Viridi Palm can go to his grab, unleashing a flurry of petals as his pummel before launching his target.
• Final Smash could be the Cherubot, which can bombard targets with its high RoF cannon and smash them up close.

 

[Braydon]

I want ogre club as his side special or special, so you can tap it to swing the ogre club or charge to add strength and the projectile.

 

[LancerStaff]

Don't see anything like this happening because of the circumstances of his inclusion. If he's going to get in again, he's going to be a clone again, although with maybe one actual new move. I'm not seeing any major changes because it'd alienate people who like his current moveset.

And the DP Staff was made a Final Smash for a reason. Even an average one could OHKO warriors in KIU. Pretty sure it could one-shot an angel if you were so determined. Most other weapons here in Smash are terribly weak, namely the Bows.

Personally, if I had to change him without some kind of complete rehaul I'd make his Dair swing front to back to make up for his Ftilt, change his arrows to a hybrid of his default and the Piercing Bow custom, and give his Electroshock the ability to fire off a large projectile like what it does in KIU making it kinda like Diddy's Fspecial. Maybe change his Orbitars, but my idea is to make DP more anti-camp and Pit campy.

 

[Braydon]

@ LancerStaff
I don't see a problem with changing him because pit will still have the old moveset, people can just change to pit with hardly any difference so they wouldn't be alienated.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ LancerStaff
I don't see a problem with changing him because pit will still have the old moveset, people can just change to pit with hardly any difference so they wouldn't be alienated.

But people want to play as Dark Pit with that moveset. Dude's been technically playable since Brawl.

 

[Braydon]

But people want to play as Dark Pit with that moveset. Dude's been technically playable since Brawl.

They can play as pit with that moveset, we don't need two clones so people can pick aesthetics.

 

[LancerStaff]

They can play as pit with that moveset, we don't need two clones so people can pick aesthetics.

We don't need to put effort into a character that will lack any real gimmick or defining trait either.

I say the same thing to Chrom and Dixie fans: Just because the character brings a unique weapon doesn't mean that the weapon will be used in a unique way in the context of Smash.

Dark Pit, as he is, brings plenty of uniqueness for the amount of effort put into him. Making him slower but stronger accomplishes very little for a lot of effort, and giving him significantly different normal moves is a waste of effort unless we get something truly unique out of it like Megaman or Villager.

And people still miss Melee Falco for god's sakes.

 

[Braydon]

We don't need to put effort into a character that will lack any real gimmick or defining trait either.

Why would he lack defining traits? The only reason he doesn't have them is because he's a clone...

 

[LancerStaff]

Why would he lack defining traits? The only reason he doesn't have them is because he's a clone...

What's the significant gameplay difference between, oh say, DP wielding the Ogre Club and King DeDeDe? Lots of jumps, hits hard but is slow, a projectile... Sure, you can make a gimmick for the projectile, but it'd have to be pretty damn integral to the character to stand out on the roster. They'll have slight statistical differences, but Dark Pit ultimately wouldn't be very unique at all and that's all just wasted effort.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the moveset would have to be unique from both Pit and the rest of the roster to be worth the effort. If not, might as well just limit the changes to a few moves again. He isn't wasted effort right now precisely because most of his moves are exactly the same.

 

[AnchorTea]

Give him Pit's brawl move set.

 

[LancerStaff]

Give him Pit's brawl move set.

You realize Brawl Pit used the Three Sacred Treasures, now Pit's final Smash and never used by Dark Pit, and that Brawl Pit had matchups that practically couldn't be lost, right? Even without gliding, Brawl Pit in SSB4 would still trounce many characters handily. His keep away game was almost unparalleled. Attempting to bring it down to something more managable, nerfing the arrows and Uspecial but buffing his attacks in return, would just give you SSB4 Pit.

 

[AnchorTea]

You realize Brawl Pit used the Three Sacred Treasures, now Pit's final Smash and never used by Dark Pit, and that Brawl Pit had matchups that practically couldn't be lost, right? Even without gliding, Brawl Pit in SSB4 would still trounce many characters handily. His keep away game was almost unparalleled. Attempting to bring it down to something more managable, nerfing the arrows and Uspecial but buffing his attacks in return, would just give you SSB4 Pit.

Give Dark Pit claws from Uprising.

Same specials, everything else different.

 

[Braydon]

What's the significant gameplay difference between, oh say, DP wielding the Ogre Club and King DeDeDe? Lots of jumps, hits hard but is slow, a projectile... Sure, you can make a gimmick for the projectile, but it'd have to be pretty damn integral to the character to stand out on the roster. They'll have slight statistical differences, but Dark Pit ultimately wouldn't be very unique at all and that's all just wasted effort.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the moveset would have to be unique from both Pit and the rest of the roster to be worth the effort. If not, might as well just limit the changes to a few moves again. He isn't wasted effort right now precisely because most of his moves are exactly the same.

So what you're saying is, if he is not a clone of pit, he will therefor be a clone of Dedede? The difference between dark pit with a ogre club for a side B and Dedede is, oh ya, EVERYTHING!

Just because you can't imagine a moveset doesn't mean it will be like an existing one.

And also I never said to limit him to ogre club, he also uses the violet palm and EZ cannon...

 

[LancerStaff]

Give Dark Pit claws from Uprising.

Same specials, everything else different.

How are Claws significantly different from fists? Just an extra inch of range, wheee...

So what you're saying is, if he is not a clone of pit, he will therefor be a clone of Dedede? The difference between dark pit with a ogre club for a side B and Dedede is, oh ya, EVERYTHING!

Just because you can't imagine a moveset doesn't mean it will be like an existing one.

And also I never said to limit him to ogre club, he also uses the violet palm and EZ cannon...

I said an entire moveset with the Ogre Club, as an example. What can a Palm or a Cannon do that's unique in Smash? Nothing. We have plenty of projectiles, and we have plenty of explosive type moves that control space. Don't need more. The Club as a single move isn't unique either.

Give me something that Dark Pit can do that's completely 100% unique from the rest of the cast. Only then would he be worth the effort to completely redo.

 

[AnchorTea]

How are Claws significantly different from fists? Just an extra inch of range, wheee...



I said an entire moveset with the Ogre Club, as an example. What can a Palm or a Cannon do that's unique in Smash? Nothing. We have plenty of projectiles, and we have plenty of explosive type moves that control space. Don't need more. The Club as a single move isn't unique either.

Give me something that Dark Pit can do that's completely 100% unique from the rest of the cast. Only then would he be worth the effort to completely redo.

Have we had a character with cla- Nevermind....

 

[Braydon]

We have plenty of projectiles, and we have plenty of explosive type moves that control space. Don't need more..

What did I just read?!?

So what you're saying is a projectile is automatically not unique from other projectiles? By that logic all megamans attacks are the same and he's not unique.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

We don't need to put effort into a character that will lack any real gimmick or defining trait either.

You just explained Dark Pit's whole situation as of now. He doesn't have anything that really separates him from Pit at the moment, which is the problem being addressed.

I say the same thing to Chrom and Dixie fans: Just because the character brings a unique weapon doesn't mean that the weapon will be used in a unique way in the context of Smash.

Doesn't Chrom wield Falchion, the very same sword that Marth uses?

Dark Pit, as he is, brings plenty of uniqueness for the amount of effort put into him. Making him slower but stronger accomplishes very little for a lot of effort, and giving him significantly different normal moves is a waste of effort unless we get something truly unique out of it like Megaman or Villager.

Is there a word I could use to describe the amount of nonsense in this paragraph? You're telling me that out of all that awesome gear he had in Uprising, the Smash team couldn't find a way to make him unique with them? I find that almost impossible to believe. I don't think we're talking about a slower but stronger version of Pit, but rather different version of Pit, one that borrows more from his game of origin. Making many of his moves significantly different from Pit does not necessarily equal someone else's moveset. When designing movesets, I'm sure there is the possibility of them having SOME similarites to others, but that's not the point we are trying to make here. I know this is all hypothetical, but the topic of the thread is "How to make Dark Pit less like Pit".

That said, i know Dark Pit IS Pit and would use all of the same weapons as Pit, but you know what? That doesn't mean he absolutely HAS to.

And people still miss Melee Falco for god's sakes.

I can't imagine why. For the most part, I would rather have a Luigified character than a flat-out clone.

 

[Strider_Bond00J]

You just explained Dark Pit's whole situation as of now. He doesn't have anything that really separates him from Pit at the moment, which is the problem being addressed.


Doesn't Chrom wield Falchion, the very same sword that Marth uses?

Is there a word I could use to describe the amount of nonsense in this paragraph? You're telling me that out of all that awesome gear he had in Uprising, the Smash team couldn't find a way to make him unique with them? I find that almost impossible to believe. I don't think we're talking about a slower but stronger version of Pit, but rather different version of Pit, one that borrows more from his game of origin. Making many of his moves significantly different from Pit does not necessarily equal someone else's moveset. When designing movesets, I'm sure there is the possibility of them having SOME similarites to others, but that's not the point we are trying to make here. I know this is all hypothetical, but the topic of the thread is "How to make Dark Pit less like Pit".

That said, i know Dark Pit IS Pit and would use all of the same weapons as Pit, but you know what? That doesn't mean he absolutely HAS to.

I can't imagine why. For the most part, I would rather have a Luigified character than a flat-out clone.

The Falchion that Chrom and Lucina wield in Awakening is the same Falchion used by Marth. The reason why it looks different now is because the blade had been reforged a number of times throughout the millennia.

As for de-cloning/Luigifing Dark Pit, I think he should have the same sort of feel that Ganondorf and Falco have, in that the have changed, but not so much to alienate their mains from the last game but still adding their own flair to them.
I'd probably go with his kick from Ch. 5 as a new dash attack and his down aerial being the one he used against the Underworld Guardian, one that shoots him down very quickly, much like Shiek and Greninja's.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Don't see anything like this happening because of the circumstances of his inclusion. If he's going to get in again, he's going to be a clone again, although with maybe one actual new move. I'm not seeing any major changes because it'd alienate people who like his current moveset.

True, but you never know. Roy and Doc almost made it back to Brawl, which goes to show that Sakurai likes to avoid cuts if he can.

And the DP Staff was made a Final Smash for a reason. Even an average one could OHKO warriors in KIU. Pretty sure it could one-shot an angel if you were so determined. Most other weapons here in Smash are terribly weak, namely the Bows.

The Palutena Bow's arrows didn't curve much at all in Uprising, and certainly not nearly as much as a the Silver Bows. Yet, here in Smash Bros, it's the opposite. There's also other mechanics like damage increases/drops over distance that didn't transfer here over from Uprising. Also, a Dash Charged Shot from the Palutena bow is actually decently powerful.

I'm a stronger supporter of the Dark Pit Staff becoming his neutral special because his current special as it is doesn't curve much anyway. May as well fully embrace that and give it a buff at the same time.

I said an entire moveset with the Ogre Club, as an example. What can a Palm or a Cannon do that's unique in Smash? Nothing. We have plenty of projectiles, and we have plenty of explosive type moves that control space. Don't need more. The Club as a single move isn't unique either.

It'll help make him different from Pit, at least.

I'm also going to mention that we don't have any moves that work exactly like the EZ Canon's Backwards Dash Charged Shot, which is a slow moving shot that rolls across the ground, which could make a decent down special.

This is almost just like the "just another sword wielder" argument, which I never felt held up.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

The Falchion that Chrom and Lucina wield in Awakening is the same Falchion used by Marth. The reason why it looks different now is because the blade had been reforged a number of times throughout the millennia.

Yeah, I knew that, I was just wondering if the recipient of my post knew that.

As for de-cloning/Luigifing Dark Pit, I think he should have the same sort of feel that Ganondorf and Falco have, in that the have changed, but not so much to alienate their mains from the last game but still adding their own flair to them.
I'd probably go with his kick from Ch. 5 as a new dash attack and his down aerial being the one he used against the Underworld Guardian, one that shoots him down very quickly, much like Shiek and Greninja's.

That's fine too, but I still think there is more he should draw from.

 

[LancerStaff]

You just explained Dark Pit's whole situation as of now. He doesn't have anything that really separates him from Pit at the moment, which is the problem being addressed.

Doesn't Chrom wield Falchion, the very same sword that Marth uses?

Is there a word I could use to describe the amount of nonsense in this paragraph? You're telling me that out of all that awesome gear he had in Uprising, the Smash team couldn't find a way to make him unique with them? I find that almost impossible to believe. I don't think we're talking about a slower but stronger version of Pit, but rather different version of Pit, one that borrows more from his game of origin. Making many of his moves significantly different from Pit does not necessarily equal someone else's moveset. When designing movesets, I'm sure there is the possibility of them having SOME similarites to others, but that's not the point we are trying to make here. I know this is all hypothetical, but the topic of the thread is "How to make Dark Pit less like Pit".

That said, i know Dark Pit IS Pit and would use all of the same weapons as Pit, but you know what? That doesn't mean he absolutely HAS to.

I can't imagine why. For the most part, I would rather have a Luigified character than a flat-out clone.

Try looking at a different angle. Rather then being entirely separate from Pit, Darky is an extension of him. He has some matchup advantages over Pit but controls 99% the same. He's practically custom moves for Pit without being custom moves. Could he be more useful? Yes. But is he completely outclassed like how one was always just better then the other? No. They finally figured out how to make a clone not effin' worthless or invalidate the original for SSB4. Doc isn't worse then Mario, he's FFA Mario. Lucina is training wheels for Marth and a good deal more useful then were compared to their counterparts because of how similar she is.

That's in reference to how Chrom fans suggest that he wield axes and lances with his sword.

Those seven characters up there are precisely why you shouldn't go the less this, more that route for making clones. I don't want to see DP/Pit ruined like that. Just because he can use different weapons doesn't mean he should either.

Let's say DP never got in. Is there any non-clone moveset that justifies his inclusion? Dark Pit has to be a newcomer on the scale of Megaman, Villager and Robin to even have a chance. The only reason you're thinking about giving him his own moveset right now is because he got in as a clone. The fact of the matter is that Dark Pit as anything but a clone wasn't even considered, and won't be/wouldn't of until something crazy unique comes up in a KI sequel.

As for de-cloning/Luigifing Dark Pit, I think he should have the same sort of feel that Ganondorf and Falco have, in that the have changed, but not so much to alienate their mains from the last game but still adding their own flair to them.
I'd probably go with his kick from Ch. 5 as a new dash attack and his down aerial being the one he used against the Underworld Guardian, one that shoots him down very quickly, much like Shiek and Greninja's.

The problem being that Pit's dash attack is great already and stall-then-fall moves are crap. Separating him from Pit just to separate him from Pit is a terrible idea.

True, but you never know. Roy and Doc almost made it back to Brawl, which goes to show that Sakurai likes to avoid cuts if he can. The Palutena Bow's arrows didn't curve much at all in Uprising, and certainly not nearly as much as a the Silver Bows. Yet, here in Smash Bros, it's the opposite. There's also other mechanics like damage increases/drops over distance that didn't transfer here over from Uprising. Also, a Dash Charged Shot from the Palutena bow is actually decently powerful.

I'm a stronger supporter of the Dark Pit Staff becoming his neutral special because his current special as it is doesn't curve much anyway. May as well fully embrace that and give it a buff at the same time.

It'll help make him different from Pit, at least.

I'm also going to mention that we don't have any moves that work exactly like the EZ Canon's Backwards Dash Charged Shot, which is a slow moving shot that rolls across the ground, which could make a decent down special.

This is almost just like the "just another sword wielder" argument, which I never felt held up.

Not sure what you're getting at... Didn't imply DP would be cut.

Palutena Bow's big advantage was that it's great for air battles, I believe. Grounded Cont. Fire's homing is about on par with the Silver's from what I remember. But most of my experience with those weapons was when I put SH+3 on everything so bah.

Again, just changing him for change is bad. Just coming up with a moveset based on X weapon is wasted effort that could go into a more unique character.

Mii Gunner has some kind of custom move that fires a grenade along the floor and explodes after a moment. So yeah.

"Just uses a sword" was all it took to limit Chrom to a Final Smash. "Just punches" kept Mac out of one game and almost another. "Just swings a Club/pair of Claws/Staff" around most certainly isn't enough to get DP his own moveset. Blades, Palms, Orbitars, Arms, Cannons, or even a different Bow isn't enough to justify it.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Not sure what you're getting at... Didn't imply DP would be cut.

Okay, so I'll agree I didn't present that argument very well.

I'd expect the director might want to bring back all the previous characters.
That means that if they have clones like Lucina and Dark Pit in from the beginning, they may take more time to tweak them.

I'm not saying it's likely, but it's possible.

Palutena Bow's big advantage was that it's great for air battles, I believe. Grounded Cont. Fire's homing is about on par with the Silver's from what I remember. But most of my experience with those weapons was when I put SH+3 on everything so bah.

I use both weapons often, and even my Palutena bow with Homing + 3 doesn't have nearly as much homing as my Silver Bow's arrows, and most certainly not the charged shots.

Also the Palutena Bow's strength is in powerful Dash Shots. It can pack a really nasty punch for a bow. I find it's slow rapid fire and unimpressive homing to actually be kind of unimpressive sky battles, unlike the Silver Bow, where you could just hold down L and probably still hit something.

Mii Gunner has some kind of custom move that fires a grenade along the floor and explodes after a moment. So yeah.

Oh.

"Just uses a sword" was all it took to limit Chrom to a Final Smash. "Just punches" kept Mac out of one game and almost another. "Just swings a Club/pair of Claws/Staff" around most certainly isn't enough to get DP his own moveset. Blades, Palms, Orbitars, Arms, Cannons, or even a different Bow isn't enough to justify it.

It didn't stop Mac from getting in altogether.
And Sakurai picked Robin over Chrom because he thought Robin would be more unique.

 

[LancerStaff]

It didn't stop Mac from getting in altogether.

And Sakurai picked Robin over Chrom because he thought Robin would be more unique.

It stopped Mac from getting in until Sak came up with a decent gimmick, which DP lacks.

Not about slots now, never was. If Chrom was unique enough he'd be here alongside Robin. Until they reach the bottom of the barrel Pittwo is going to stay a clone.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Not about slots now, never was. If Chrom was unique enough he'd be here alongside Robin. Until they reach the bottom of the barrel Pittwo is going to stay a clone.

I agree. It's not about slots. It never was.
There is, however, still a limit of some variety.

That limit is time and resources. I suppose Luigifying Pittoo would take away from those two things as well, though...but I guess my main argument is just that he's possibly going to be in the game anyway.

This is just speculation, but I have feeling the reason they had to cut Roy and Doc in Brawl was because they were trying to Luigify them more.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Try looking at a different angle. Rather then being entirely separate from Pit, Darky is an extension of him. He has some matchup advantages over Pit but controls 99% the same. He's practically custom moves for Pit without being custom moves. Could he be more useful? Yes. But is he completely outclassed like how one was always just better then the other? No. They finally figured out how to make a clone not effin' worthless or invalidate the original for SSB4. Doc isn't worse then Mario, he's FFA Mario. Lucina is training wheels for Marth and a good deal more useful then were compared to their counterparts because of how similar she is.

I don't think I ever implied that Dark Pit was outclassed by Pit. I'm not sure if the Lucina logic can be applied to those characters, particularly the SSBB versions. Personally, I like how SSBB handled its "clones", with the original character's moveset as compared to the counterpart's altered moveset. The alterations were a much bigger factor back then, which made the choice of character much more significant as compared to the clones we have now, even if it turned out that in certain instances the alterations were superior to the originals, but I blame SSBB's lack of balance for that issue. One character wasn't supposed to outclass the counterpart, but that's just how it turned out unfortunately.

That's in reference to how Chrom fans suggest that he wield axes and lances with his sword.

As a Great Lord he CAN use lances alongside his Falchion, but I guess Sakurai felt that Robin was flat-out the better candidate.

Those seven characters up there are precisely why you shouldn't go the less this, more that route for making clones. I don't want to see DP/Pit ruined like that. Just because he can use different weapons doesn't mean he should either.

I'm not seeing the logic here. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the relationship between the two would be ruined just from Dark Pit being Luigified, like many characters before him.

Let's say DP never got in. Is there any non-clone moveset that justifies his inclusion? Dark Pit has to be a newcomer on the scale of Megaman, Villager and Robin to even have a chance. The only reason you're thinking about giving him his own moveset right now is because he got in as a clone. The fact of the matter is that Dark Pit as anything but a clone wasn't even considered, and won't be/wouldn't of until something crazy unique comes up in a KI sequel.

A non-clone moveset? Sure. It couldn't be that hard to do. Uniqueness isn't the ONLY factor in a character's inclusion. Popularity among the fanbase, relevance within the respective series, ease of moveset design, Sakurai bias, and other factors I can't think of at the moment. The fact of him being a clone isn't my only reason for wanting him to be a bit different from Pit. He comes from a game that was packed with loads of content, some of which he used himself within the game, and I would be happy to see more of that content being utilized. Who says we need to wait for an Uprising sequel? The content is there already and it is quite extensive, one just needs to figure out how unique they would want it to be. Like I said, it couldn't be too hard to do so. Dark Pit wasn't considered as anything other than a clone because he couldn't be, not that late in development. Maybe if he was developed from the get go we might have seen a different Dark Pit. Maybe. But as it stands now, we won't ever know what he could've been, only what he is.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think I ever implied that Dark Pit was outclassed by Pit. I'm not sure if the Lucina logic can be applied to those characters, particularly the SSBB versions. Personally, I like how SSBB handled its "clones", with the original character's moveset as compared to the counterpart's altered moveset. The alterations were a much bigger factor back then, which made the choice of character much more significant as compared to the clones we have now, even if it turned out that in certain instances the alterations were superior to the originals, but I blame SSBB's lack of balance for that issue. One character wasn't supposed to outclass the counterpart, but that's just how it turned out unfortunately.


As a Great Lord he CAN use lances alongside his Falchion, but I guess Sakurai felt that Robin was flat-out the better candidate.


I'm not seeing the logic here. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the relationship between the two would be ruined just from Dark Pit being Luigified, like many characters before him.


A non-clone moveset? Sure. It couldn't be that hard to do. Uniqueness isn't the ONLY factor in a character's inclusion. Popularity among the fanbase, relevance within the respective series, ease of moveset design, Sakurai bias, and other factors I can't think of at the moment. The fact of him being a clone isn't my only reason for wanting him to be a bit different from Pit. He comes from a game that was packed with loads of content, some of which he used himself within the game, and I would be happy to see more of that content being utilized. Who says we need to wait for an Uprising sequel? The content is there already and it is quite extensive, one just needs to figure out how unique they would want it to be. Like I said, it couldn't be too hard to do so. Dark Pit wasn't considered as anything other than a clone because he couldn't be, not that late in development. Maybe if he was developed from the get go we might have seen a different Dark Pit. Maybe. But as it stands now, we won't ever know what he could've been, only what he is.

Never said he was better... Link and TL only seem equal now because they're relatively unpopular characters. Lucas I see being completely outclassed by Ness. The only way you can really balance characters so similar is by making them even more similar. Check TL's nerfs. Slower attacks across the board.

Because "uses lances" isn't enough to make a character, much like with DP and all the other 102 weapons not in Smash.

Brawl Falco completely beat Brawl Fox. Now it's the other way around, and still would be if all they did was remove Falco's chaingrab. What's wrong with Falco? Lacks speed and KO power. Guess what Fox has?

Moveset is a major part. You don't see a lot of characters get into Smash on popularity alone. Basically all I can think of is Mewtwo and maybe Charizard, and they're from the second biggest Nintendo series. Dark Pit simply doesn't have enough material to justify something unique.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Never said he was better... Link and TL only seem equal now because they're relatively unpopular characters. Lucas I see being completely outclassed by Ness. The only way you can really balance characters so similar is by making them even more similar. Check TL's nerfs. Slower attacks across the board.

Because "uses lances" isn't enough to make a character, much like with DP and all the other 102 weapons not in Smash.

Brawl Falco completely beat Brawl Fox. Now it's the other way around, and still would be if all they did was remove Falco's chaingrab. What's wrong with Falco? Lacks speed and KO power. Guess what Fox has?

Moveset is a major part. You don't see a lot of characters get into Smash on popularity alone. Basically all I can think of is Mewtwo and maybe Charizard, and they're from the second biggest Nintendo series. Dark Pit simply doesn't have enough material to justify something unique.

I don't know, they got a character out of " nothing but punches".

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Never said he was better... Link and TL only seem equal now because they're relatively unpopular characters. Lucas I see being completely outclassed by Ness. The only way you can really balance characters so similar is by making them even more similar. Check TL's nerfs. Slower attacks across the board.

I can't agree with that logic. Making characters even more similar does not flat-out equal more balance. We live in an age where patches can take of whatever balance issues that arise during gameplay, so the similarity logic can be thrown out. And what does the popularity of Link and Toonie have to do with their own balancing? Nothing. And just so you know, I fight Link quite frequently in FG, Toonie is quite rare to see though, but that might be because he's a bit harder to use for the average smasher. I don't know what your experience is regarding those characters. According to a friend of mine who mains Toonie, there is very little difference in his transition from SSBB to Smash 4, just his air game is a touch slower so he can't just, you know, constantly Bair chain his target to death. But other than that he's just as speedy as ever.

Because "uses lances" isn't enough to make a character, much like with DP and all the other 102 weapons not in Smash.

The difference between Chrom and Dark Pit is the amount of weapons they can wield. In this case, (and ) is like because he can wield so many powerful and unique weapons it's literally unbelievable, a fact that any Uprising player would know about.

Brawl Falco completely beat Brawl Fox. Now it's the other way around, and still would be if all they did was remove Falco's chaingrab. What's wrong with Falco? Lacks speed and KO power. Guess what Fox has?

Like I said, lack of balance. I not sure what 's issues are in Smash 4 as I don't fight him often or know anyone who actively uses him. But if the Smash team feels that he is underwhelming in his performance, they can always patch him up in the future.

Moveset is a major part. You don't see a lot of characters get into Smash on popularity alone. Basically all I can think of is Mewtwo and maybe Charizard, and they're from the second biggest Nintendo series. Dark Pit simply doesn't have enough material to justify something unique.

Well of course moveset is a major part, but it is only one of many factors. I feel as if you completely missed my point about the source material. I've said it once already but I'll say it again: The content IS there along with the uniqueness that the content offers. But it is up to the developers to decide just how unique it would be. I fully believe it would be easy for them to dream up a unique moveset for using the gear in Uprising.

 

[Braydon]

Okay here's my idea for a unique moveset;

Dark pit staff, fires a continuous stream of weak projectiles forward while held, dark pit can still move back and forth while using the move but at a reduced rate, just like how he can still walk slower in uprising. (think kirby charging hammer speed)

Ogre club, Slow chargeable attack, with high range and damage, if fully charged it releases it's large projectile which rolls slowly forward dealing damage to anyone who touches it and not disappearing. (or being reflected by reflectors)

Cannon launch, fires an easy cannon shot downward propelling himself up, Can be angled, but propels you up less than power of flight and has a longer start up time. The shot is slow and will roll along the ground for a short distance, if it collides with a foe while in the air it has a minor meteor effect.

Shock orbiters, Longer startup and a smaller hitbox than guardian orbiters, deals small damage and stuns enemies hit, deflects projectiles instead of reflecting.

Violet palm, Tether grab. Extends an arm of translucent violet magic from his palm to grab enemies.
Dark pit throws them up and then shoots 2 shots up at them from his palm
The arm throws them forward
Dark pit turns around and a burst of violet energy explodes from his palm launching his enemy
The violet arm lifts them up and bounces them of the ground



Didn't do the s, but he could mix in palm punches with bow slashes, maybe even us the EZ cannon in a smash.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't know, they got a character out of " nothing but punches".

Because they came up with a gimmick not shared by any other character. Haven't I said this like ten times now?

I can't agree with that logic. Making characters even more similar does not flat-out equal more balance. We live in an age where patches can take of whatever balance issues that arise during gameplay, so the similarity logic can be thrown out. And what does the popularity of Link and Toonie have to do with their own balancing? Nothing. And just so you know, I fight Link quite frequently in FG, Toonie is quite rare to see though, but that might be because he's a bit harder to use for the average smasher. I don't know what your experience is regarding those characters. According to a friend of mine who mains Toonie, there is very little difference in his transition from SSBB to Smash 4, just his air game is a touch slower so he can't just, you know, constantly Bair chain his target to death. But other than that he's just as speedy as ever.


The difference between Chrom and Dark Pit is the amount of weapons they can wield. In this case, (and ) is like because he can wield so many powerful and unique weapons it's literally unbelievable, a fact that any Uprising player would know about.


Like I said, lack of balance. I not sure what 's issues are in Smash 4 as I don't fight him often or know anyone who actively uses him. But if the Smash team feels that he is underwhelming in his performance, they can always patch him up in the future.

Well of course moveset is a major part, but it is only one of many factors. I feel as if you completely missed my point about the source material. I've said it once already but I'll say it again: The content IS there along with the uniqueness that the content offers. But it is up to the developers to decide just how unique it would be. I fully believe it would be easy for them to dream up a unique moveset for using the gear in Uprising.

How was TL balanced compared to Link? All his attacks were slown down. How do people want Doc buffed? By giving him more agility. How do people want Falco buffed? More speed, more attack power, making his blaster not useless. Ganondorf? Speed. Pichu? Not killing itself. Clones are too similar to create significantly different matchups and thus the only wat to balance them is by making them more similar.

And Sakurai said we wouldn't see balance patches the size of the first one again, so Falco won't get that overall +1 damage he clearly needs.

How many weapons a character can use means nothing if they function exactly like what we already have. Megaman didn't get in because of his large arsenal, he got in because said arsenal consisted mostly of projectiles and we haven't had a character with mostly projectiles.

People imagined Megaman and Robin's gimmicks long before their announcements. You act like it's impossible for fans to come up with something unique. The devs decided. They decided there's nothing unique enough to do anything with.

Okay here's my idea for a unique moveset;

Dark pit staff, fires a continuous stream of weak projectiles forward while held, dark pit can still move back and forth while using the move but at a reduced rate, just like how he can still walk slower in uprising. (think kirby charging hammer speed)

Ogre club, Slow chargeable attack, with high range and damage, if fully charged it releases it's large projectile which rolls slowly forward dealing damage to anyone who touches it and not disappearing. (or being reflected by reflectors)

Cannon launch, fires an easy cannon shot downward propelling himself up, Can be angled, but propels you up less than power of flight and has a longer start up time. The shot is slow and will roll along the ground for a short distance, if it collides with a foe while in the air it has a minor meteor effect.

Shock orbiters, Longer startup and a smaller hitbox than guardian orbiters, deals small damage and stuns enemies hit, deflects projectiles instead of reflecting.

Violet palm, Tether grab. Extends an arm of translucent violet magic from his palm to grab enemies.
Dark pit throws them up and then shoots 2 shots up at them from his palm
The arm throws them forward
Dark pit turns around and a burst of violet energy explodes from his palm launching his enemy
The violet arm lifts them up and bounces them of the ground



Didn't do the s, but he could mix in palm punches with bow slashes, maybe even us the EZ cannon in a smash.

I'll be tackling these in order.

That's virtually the same thing as Megaman's lemons.

DDD's hammer with a projectile at full charge, and it's impossible to get fully charged outside of training.

Mii Gunner has both a cannon launch and a grenade, separately, that function like you said. Taping two old moves together isn't enough to warrant a character.

There's a reason they didn't give the GOs a hitbox in the first place: It'd just be a generic large hitbox.

Because we don't have enough tether grabs already...

And the throws just aren't special at all.

No other character has a moveset exactly like this, yes, but that's not a reason to include a character. Monado Arts are. Lumas are. It's just another moveset.

 

[Braydon]

No other character has a moveset exactly like this, yes, but that's not a reason to include a character. Monado Arts are. Lumas are. It's just another moveset.

So in your mind there is no reason for Etc.

A character does not need a gimmick, it needs a unique playstyle, there is a big difference.

I'll be tackling these in order.

That's virtually the same thing as Megaman's lemons.

No it's not... it has longer range and power but hinders mobility and would of course have some lag on start and end.

DDD's hammer with a projectile at full charge, and it's impossible to get fully charged outside of training.

Impossible to get full charge out of training? What? No it's not. Also this is a stationary move like ikes charge, not mobile like Dedede's

Mii Gunner has both a cannon launch and a grenade, separately, that function like you said. Taping two old moves together isn't enough to warrant a character.

So in other words there aren't any moves like it? This has uses the mii gunner's attacks don't you can use it to jump back while shooting a projectile or meteor people while bringing yourself back on stage.

There's a reason they didn't give the GOs a hitbox in the first place: It'd just be a generic large hitbox.

No it's because they are for reflecting. Also they have a hitbox, it's just a pushing hitbox with no damage

Because we don't have enough tether grabs already...

And the throws just aren't special at all.

I love tether grabs. Beats a regular grab, and it's different from pit, incorporates one of his weapons, and is quite fitting in the set.

 

[LancerStaff]

So in your mind there is no reason for Etc.

A character does not need a gimmick, it needs a unique playstyle, there is a big difference.


No it's not... it has longer range and power but hinders mobility and would of course have some lag on start and end.

Impossible to get full charge out of training? What? No it's not. Also this is a stationary move like ikes charge, not mobile like Dedede's

So in other words there aren't any moves like it? This has uses the mii gunner's attacks don't you can use it to jump back while shooting a projectile or meteor people while bringing yourself back on stage.

No it's because they are for reflecting. Also they have a hitbox, it's just a pushing hitbox with no damage

I love tether grabs. Beats a regular grab, and it's different from pit, incorporates one of his weapons, and is quite fitting in the set.

Gimmick and playstyle are the same thing. And half those characters are clones and the other half only got in because Game Freak said so.

Lemons also limit mobility and have lag. That idea is essentially a custom Mega Buster. Isn't unique.

Lol, that's even worse. It's as terrible an idea as removing Mac's armor for extra damage for "balancing." Ike can sorta use it because he stabs the ledge (not that you'll ever have time to charge it completely), and Marth can get away with it because it breaks shields. This? In a FFA you'll just get whacked and in a 1v1 you won't get the projectile before the opponent grabs the ledge. Doesn't matter either way because you gave away the fact it's just like Ike's move, but with one of Zelda's phantoms at full charge. Again, two moves taped together isn't reason to add a character.

There's also Jr.'s ejection seat move now that I think about it. Only it doesn't make you helpless and the explosive won't bounce around.

GOs don't reflect in KIU. We already have Impact Orbitars, and those aren't exactly a unique, character-defining move. It's generic. If you're saying it should fire projectiles, then we have Olimar's Dsmash which does exactly that.

Not only does that not make any sense as a move because Palms has virtually no Melee range and can't magically grab people, there's plenty of tether grabs already and they're all crap. Sure, let's make DP "unique" by giving him a move like ten other characters have. That'll help...

 

[Braydon]

Gimmick and playstyle are the same thing.

Umm... No.

And half those characters are clones and the other half only got in because Game Freak said so.

So you don't want greninja to be in game? Is he not unique enough for you?

Lemons also limit mobility and have lag. That idea is essentially a custom Mega Buster. Isn't unique.

You don't play megaman do you? You can go at full air speed, you just can't run is all.

Lol, that's even worse. It's as terrible an idea as removing Mac's armor for extra damage for "balancing." Ike can sorta use it because he stabs the ledge (not that you'll ever have time to charge it completely), and Marth can get away with it because it breaks shields. This? In a FFA you'll just get whacked and in a 1v1 you won't get the projectile before the opponent grabs the ledge. Doesn't matter either way because you gave away the fact it's just like Ike's move, but with one of Zelda's phantoms at full charge. Again, two moves taped together isn't reason to add a character.

Yes clearly all charge attacks are a terrible idea because you're incapable of using them. And also, by the way, you're nto supposed to get to full charge every time, that's why it allows releasing early.

There's also Jr.'s ejection seat move now that I think about it. Only it doesn't make you helpless and the explosive won't bounce around.

So in other words, it's different.

GOs don't reflect in KIU. We already have Impact Orbitars, and those aren't exactly a unique, character-defining move. It's generic. If you're saying it should fire projectiles, then we have Olimar's Dsmash which does exactly that.

I mean what I said, try to read.

Not only does that not make any sense as a move because Palms has virtually no Melee range and can't magically grab people, there's plenty of tether grabs already and they're all crap. Sure, let's make DP "unique" by giving him a move like ten other characters have. That'll help...

I get the overwhelming feeling you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. So a tether grab will make him just like any other char with a tether grab? Kind of like how link and zero suit are the same? So all chars with tether grabs are not unique. Sorry samus.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

How was TL balanced compared to Link? All his attacks were slown down. How do people want Doc buffed? By giving him more agility. How do people want Falco buffed? More speed, more attack power, making his blaster not useless. Ganondorf? Speed. Pichu? Not killing itself. Clones are too similar to create significantly different matchups and thus the only wat to balance them is by making them more similar.

was not slowed down at all, really. I know first hand from my matches against him that there's very little difference in his fighting style from SSBB and Smash 4. They just made his Bair less spammable but increased its force to compensate. Other than that and his Dair piercing targets now instead of bouncing on them, speed game hasn't changed at all. If anything, was the one to get the buffs to make his performance on par(or damn near)with , because in SSBB, was the superior character. Nowadays the gap between them is much smaller, so is actually a viable character and won't get completely blown out by a in the field. Point is, didn't change, did.

And Sakurai said we wouldn't see balance patches the size of the first one again, so Falco won't get that overall +1 damage he clearly needs.

Sakurai says a lot of things, so it's hard to know what's actually on his mind at times.

How many weapons a character can use means nothing if they function exactly like what we already have. Megaman didn't get in because of his large arsenal, he got in because said arsenal consisted mostly of projectiles and we haven't had a character with mostly projectiles.

You completely missed my point once again. You are acting like his moveset was the only deciding factor in his inclusion, which is not the sole reason. People have wanted in since the SSBB days and it's not just what he can do or how his moveset works down to the last detail, a lot of it has to do with who he is and how much people care about him. He is one of the gaming world's most well known icons and has an extensive history with Nintendo. Whatever reasons there were for his inclusion, he met the devs' criteria. And just so you know, EVERY character runs the risk of having moves that may have similarities to another. is no exception.

People imagined Megaman and Robin's gimmicks long before their announcements. You act like it's impossible for fans to come up with something unique. The devs decided. They decided there's nothing unique enough to do anything with.

Swing and a miss. If I really thought that, why in the world did I even come to this thread and go so far as to post MY ideas on how to make a Luigified version of? And since you didn't seem to get it the first time I said it I will repeat it: There was no time for the devs to do anything with him other than a slightly different Arm and Bow, and a copy-and-paste Final Smash. At some point in Smash 4's development he was an alt. for , but sometime late in development Sakurai made the decision to make him a full on character. That's how Sakurai told that story, anyway.

I'll be tackling these in order.

That's virtually the same thing as Megaman's lemons.

DDD's hammer with a projectile at full charge, and it's impossible to get fully charged outside of training.

Mii Gunner has both a cannon launch and a grenade, separately, that function like you said. Taping two old moves together isn't enough to warrant a character.

There's a reason they didn't give the GOs a hitbox in the first place: It'd just be a generic large hitbox.

Because we don't have enough tether grabs already...

And the throws just aren't special at all.

No other character has a moveset exactly like this, yes, but that's not a reason to include a character. Monado Arts are. Lumas are. It's just another moveset.

Is it just me, or does this person just not get the whole point of this thread?

 

[LancerStaff]

Umm... No.


So you don't want greninja to be in game? Is he not unique enough for you?


You don't play megaman do you? You can go at full air speed, you just can't run is all.


Yes clearly all charge attacks are a terrible idea because you're incapable of using them. And also, by the way, you're nto supposed to get to full charge every time, that's why it allows releasing early.


So in other words, it's different.

I mean what I said, try to read.


I get the overwhelming feeling you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. So a tether grab will make him just like any other char with a tether grab? Kind of like how link and zero suit are the same? So all chars with tether grabs are not unique. Sorry samus.

And Megaman doesn't exactly have a ton of air speed either.

Charge moves are terrible because they're terrible. They require a gimmick on top of them to be useful at all. Mac's armor, Ike's hitbox that hits the ledge, and Marth's shield breaking power give them uses. Kirby and DDD's hammers are largely considered to be their worst moves, and Kirby's hammer change is seen strictly as a nerf.

Yes, it's a worse version of another move and not worth making a character around.

Windboxes have different uses from hitboxes. GOs aren't a generic attack now because you can't really use them to attack, all you can do with the windbox is shove people while they're recovering. And that's still nothing to base a character around.

Did I say that? I said that tethers themselves are crap and aren't unique. You're only trying to make DP stand out from Pit when you should be trying to make him stand out from the entire roster.

was not slowed down at all, really. I know first hand from my matches against him that there's very little difference in his fighting style from SSBB and Smash 4. They just made his Bair less spammable but increased its force to compensate. Other than that and his Dair piercing targets now instead of bouncing on them, speed game hasn't changed at all. If anything, was the one to get the buffs to make his performance on par(or damn near)with , because in SSBB, was the superior character. Nowadays the gap between them is much smaller, so is actually a viable character and won't get completely blown out by a in the field. Point is, didn't change, did.


Sakurai says a lot of things, so it's hard to know what's actually on his mind at times.


You completely missed my point once again. You are acting like his moveset was the only deciding factor in his inclusion, which is not the sole reason. People have wanted in since the SSBB days and it's not just what he can do or how his moveset works down to the last detail, a lot of it has to do with who he is and how much people care about him. He is one of the gaming world's most well known icons and has an extensive history with Nintendo. Whatever reasons there were for his inclusion, he met the devs' criteria. And just so you know, EVERY character runs the risk of having moves that may have similarities to another. is no exception.


Swing and a miss. If I really thought that, why in the world did I even come to this thread and go so far as to post MY ideas on how to make a Luigified version of? And since you didn't seem to get it the first time I said it I will repeat it: There was no time for the devs to do anything with him other than a slightly different Arm and Bow, and a copy-and-paste Final Smash. At some point in Smash 4's development he was an alt. for , but sometime late in development Sakurai made the decision to make him a full on character. That's how Sakurai told that story, anyway.

Is it just me, or does this person just not get the whole point of this thread?

TL's air speed was nerfed, most aerials were made slower, and Uspecial doesn't travel as far horizontally from what I remember, and that all makes him more similar to Link.

Link had buffs to his grounded and aerial speed and has less lag on his attacks, making him more similar to TL.

When it comes to gameplay he sticks to his word. Namely, he's conditioning players to not beg for overrated character of the week to get nerfed. If he actually does something major then it'd undo his conditioning.

You could make a similar case for Ryu's inclusion, but Sakurai said himself that his moveset was going to keep him out. Pac-Man also was disregarded for Brawl simply because Sakurai couldn't think of anything good at the time, and that's after Miamoto voted for him and then there's the fact that Pac is even more well-known then Megaman is. And again, this is about the unimportant Dark Pit to get a moveset.

You know why DP was a costume instead of a character? Because he's not unique enough to be a separate character.

Depends. Is this a fantasy land where all our dreams will come true, or is this supposed to be a discussion? Judging from the OP it's the later. "In a given hypothetical Smash 5 how do you think Dark Pit and Pit should be differentiated?" I think he should be about the same as he is now, with some buffs to make him worth using over Pit, but not enough to waste time that could go to a proper character. And I've been explaining my view since the beginning.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

TL's air speed was nerfed, most aerials were made slower, and Uspecial doesn't travel as far horizontally from what I remember, and that all makes him more similar to Link.

Are you sure you aren't thinking about the higher gravity of the lighter characters that makes them seem like they don't have their quick air speed? His only aerial that was nerfed is his Bair. It has more cooldown now as compared to SSBB, but his other aerials are as fast as ever. His Spin Attack looks the same as always. is as quick as ever.

Link had buffs to his grounded and aerial speed and has less lag on his attacks, making him more similar to TL.

I will admit that moves like his Fsmash were buffed to hold better much like 's, and his subweapons have been buffed to be more effective(almost as much as ), but at the end of the day, still plays like and still plays like. Those two have their own skill sets to adjust to.

When it comes to gameplay he sticks to his word. Namely, he's conditioning players to not beg for overrated character of the week to get nerfed. If he actually does something major then it'd undo his conditioning.

I'm more or less fine with the current character balance. It's more a matter of just adapting to the character's strengths and weaknesses to get the most out of them(I haven't been able to do this completely yet, but I'm trying). But there will always be some people who will be stubborn enough to constantly want "overpowered" characters to be nerfed.

You could make a similar case for Ryu's inclusion, but Sakurai said himself that his moveset was going to keep him out. Pac-Man also was disregarded for Brawl simply because Sakurai couldn't think of anything good at the time, and that's after Miamoto voted for him and then there's the fact that Pac is even more well-known then Megaman is. And again, this is about the unimportant Dark Pit to get a moveset.

I don't know anything about Ryu, so I won't say anything on the matter. But as for , he's here now so that means they were able to figure out something for him. Some characters are easier to plan movesets for than others, I guess. I still believe it would be easy to think up something unique for and I'm damn sure this wouldn't be an issue for the Smash team. And who says he's unimportant? You? And if this is about , then why are we even talking about other characters?

You know why DP was a costume instead of a character? Because he's not unique enough to be a separate character.

And fast forward to today.

Depends. Is this a fantasy land where all our dreams will come true, or is this supposed to be a discussion? Judging from the OP it's the later. "In a given hypothetical Smash 5 how do you think Dark Pit and Pit should be differentiated?" I think he should be about the same as he is now, with some buffs to make him worth using over Pit, but not enough to waste time that could go to a proper character. And I've been explaining my view since the beginning.

I don't think it would be a total waste of time, but that's me. I've said this early on, but I much prefer a Luigified character over a copy-and-paste clone(though I still have a bit of love for ).