Decloning DP: A good old fashioned Luigification

[LancerStaff]

Are you sure you aren't thinking about the higher gravity of the lighter characters that makes them seem like they don't have their quick air speed? His only aerial that was nerfed is his Bair. It has more cooldown now as compared to SSBB, but his other aerials are as fast as ever. His Spin Attack looks the same as always. is as quick as ever.


I will admit that moves like his Fsmash were buffed to hold better much like 's, and his subweapons have been buffed to be more effective(almost as much as ), but at the end of the day, still plays like and still plays like. Those two have their own skill sets to adjust to.


I'm more or less fine with the current character balance. It's more a matter of just adapting to the character's strengths and weaknesses to get the most out of them(I haven't been able to do this completely yet, but I'm trying). But there will always be some people who will be stubborn enough to constantly want "overpowered" characters to be nerfed.


I don't know anything about Ryu, so I won't say anything on the matter. But as for , he's here now so that means they were able to figure out something for him. Some characters are easier to plan movesets for than others, I guess. I still believe it would be easy to think up something unique for and I'm damn sure this wouldn't be an issue for the Smash team. And who says he's unimportant? You? And if this is about , then why are we even talking about other characters?


And fast forward to today.


I don't think it would be a total waste of time, but that's me. I've said this early on, but I much prefer a Luigified character over a copy-and-paste clone(though I still have a bit of love for ).

I asked the TL and Link boards for this info... This isn't some guess, this is as truthful as DP only having three moves with any difference from Pit. And SSBwiki also says the same thing.

Here's the thing: Pac-Man has had tons of odd and obscure games to draw inspiration from, and then Sakurai was working with the company that birthed Pac. Furthermore, he has plenty of moves that don't even come from his own series, being more of a rep of Namco in general. It's understandable that Sakurai didn't come up with something then, especially since he wasn't a high priority. But Dark Pit, even with the man who created him and virtually every moveset in Smash, nothing truly unique was thought of and was just tossed aside as a simple costume without a second thought. He wouldn't of been in the game at all if Sakurai had thought of something that separated them significantly, kinda like with Lucas.

Still a costume today.

And I'd still prefer them to not waste time on clones that either invalidate the original or are just useless.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

I asked the TL and Link boards for this info... This isn't some guess, this is as truthful as DP only having three moves with any difference from Pit. And SSBwiki also says the same thing.

Well my info isn't a guess either, coming from someone I play against who has a lot of experience with .

Here's the thing: Pac-Man has had tons of odd and obscure games to draw inspiration from, and then Sakurai was working with the company that birthed Pac. Furthermore, he has plenty of moves that don't even come from his own series, being more of a rep of Namco in general. It's understandable that Sakurai didn't come up with something then, especially since he wasn't a high priority. But Dark Pit, even with the man who created him and virtually every moveset in Smash, nothing truly unique was thought of and was just tossed aside as a simple costume without a second thought. He wouldn't of been in the game at all if Sakurai had thought of something that separated them significantly, kinda like with Lucas.

Do you know this for sure? Because I don't. I'd say that having anything unique to him was impossible due to Sakurai's original plan with him, and then with the decision to make him a full character later on there was no time for any significant changes. I mean he was just a little extra with the time they had left, according to Sakurai anyway. And you probably know this already, but is coming back so he doesn't need to be mentioned here.

Still a costume today.

A costume that was made into a playable character.

And I'd still prefer them to not waste time on clones that either invalidate the original or are just useless.

And I'm still not seeing how either case would apply.

 

[LancerStaff]

Well my info isn't a guess either, coming from someone I play against who has a lot of experience with .


Do you know this for sure? Because I don't. I'd say that having anything unique to him was impossible due to Sakurai's original plan with him, and then with the decision to make him a full character later on there was no time for any significant changes. I mean he was just a little extra with the time they had left, according to Sakurai anyway. And you probably know this already, but is coming back so he doesn't need to be mentioned here.


A costume that was made into a playable character.


And I'm still not seeing how either case would apply.

Your info is just wrong. You're deciding to ignore reliable sources of character data for your friend's ideas, who I can already tell isn't an expert, for the sake of an argument. Do you really think the TL forums are that off?

I ment in the sense that Lucas hadn't been a high priority, being a clone, only returning later as DLC because he's a veteran. I can already tell that he'll be worse then Ness again almost entirely because of that tether.

Barely even qualifies as a separate character, and people are requesting for one of his only differences to be removed for the sake of balance.

Because virtually every clone before hasn't been an example of this? How wasn't just better then ? How wasn't one of the best characters while was one of the worst? Even back in 64 was just a better .

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Your info is just wrong. You're deciding to ignore reliable sources of character data for your friend's ideas, who I can already tell isn't an expert, for the sake of an argument. Do you really think the TL forums are that off?

I ment in the sense that Lucas hadn't been a high priority, being a clone, only returning later as DLC because he's a veteran. I can already tell that he'll be worse then Ness again almost entirely because of that tether.

Barely even qualifies as a separate character, and people are requesting for one of his only differences to be removed for the sake of balance.

Because virtually every clone before hasn't been an example of this? How wasn't just better then ? How wasn't one of the best characters while was one of the worst? Even back in 64 was just a better .

Ok, how does a tether make Lucas worse? Especially in the recovery department now that ledge hogging has gone the way or random tripping.

I have unleashed a monster on this board.

 

[LancerStaff]

Ok, how does a tether make Lucas worse? Especially in the recovery department now that ledge hogging has gone the way or random tripping.

I have unleashed a monster on this board.

Tether grabs, not an aerial tether, are considered to be terrible. Virtually every advantage a character gets from a tether, Zair for offense and recovery and grab range, is nullified by how slow and laggy the grab is. Made even worse in SSB4 due to how important grabs have become.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

Your info is just wrong. You're deciding to ignore reliable sources of character data for your friend's ideas, who I can already tell isn't an expert, for the sake of an argument. Do you really think the TL forums are that off?

To be honest, I'm only going off of my experiences against him, but he still seems as fast as ever.

I ment in the sense that Lucas hadn't been a high priority, being a clone, only returning later as DLC because he's a veteran. I can already tell that he'll be worse then Ness again almost entirely because of that tether.

A semi-clone to be specific. And as for whether he'll be worse than only time will tell.

Barely even qualifies as a separate character, and people are requesting for one of his only differences to be removed for the sake of balance.

What are you referring to specifically?

Because virtually every clone before hasn't been an example of this? How wasn't just better then ? How wasn't one of the best characters while was one of the worst? Even back in 64 was just a better .

was better than ? That's new to me. Same goes for and . Though I did know about completely outclassing in high-level play. But it's a known fact the Smash games of the past had severe balancing issues, and not just between counterparts. Smash 4 more or less mitigated some of these issues, making more characters viable.

 

[LancerStaff]

To be honest, I'm only going off of my experiences against him, but he still seems as fast as ever.
A semi-clone to be specific. And as for whether he'll be worse than only time will tell.

What are you referring to specifically?

was better than ? That's new to me. Same goes for and . Though I did know about completely outclassing in high-level play. But it's a known fact the Smash games of the past had severe balancing issues, and not just between counterparts. Smash 4 more or less mitigated some of these issues, making more characters viable.

That "experience" of yours is as accurate as the people who think Marth wasn't nerfed into the dirt.

Tethers are crap. Unless Lucas's moves are significantly better then Ness's, but with him being largely slower but more powerful and thus worse in Brawl I'm doubtful, Lucas is going to end up a whole tier lower.

Ftilt. Some suggest arrows too, but something more unique could get patched in.

is B, is D. is D, is E. Gap would be bigger if Marth's infinite chaingrab on the two didn't exist. And you still haven't acknowledged that Link and TL were balanced by making them more similar.

 

[SimonBarSinister]

That "experience" of yours is as accurate as the people who think Marth wasn't nerfed into the dirt.

If I ever implied that I know more about than most others, it was not my intention. I haven't actually gone in-depth into all of his changes from SSBB to Smash 4. My experiences could be considered detached from others, as I don't actually fight many users. That said, I won't close my mind to the newer information about him, I just haven't been bothered to go look it up yet. I'm stubborn, but not that stubborn.

Tethers are crap. Unless Lucas's moves are significantly better then Ness's, but with him being largely slower but more powerful and thus worse in Brawl I'm doubtful, Lucas is going to end up a whole tier lower.

I wouldn't know, as I don't use characters with tether grabs. I don't remember being slower than , but I haven't played the game in a while so my memory could be off.

Ftilt. Some suggest arrows too, but something more unique could get patched in.

Maybe, but I don't know if the Smash team is really going to do anything with him in the near future.

is B, is D. is D, is E. Gap would be bigger if Marth's infinite chaingrab on the two didn't exist. And you still haven't acknowledged that Link and TL were balanced by making them more similar.

Ah, the days of chain grabbing. I remember doing it occasionally with 's force palm, in fact, I think he was the only character I ever used in Smash history that could do that. Unless of course you count characters like being able to chain grab and because their gravity was so freaking high.

I kind of did acknowledge what you were saying about and . Granted I don't know everything about the changes that were made, but I did note a few that did make more effective like .

On another note, the two of us alone have seriously derailed the thread from what it originally was. Just something I've noticed.

 

[Tito Maas]

Give him Pit's brawl move set.

No, give Pit his Brawl moveset and give Dark Pit the SSB4 moveset they both share.

But seriously, as a Dark Pit mainer, the only thing I want is even the smallest incentive to use Dark Pit over Pit. Yeah, I win more with Dark Pit and I think he's a cooler character, but even I can acknowledge he's completely outclassed by Pit. Even mechanically, he has no advantages over Pit.

Why don't you increase his knockback on his attacks? Buff Dark Pit's strength or kill power (since everyone thinks he's stronger anyway), but give Pit the better DAir and aerial attacks. Make Pit's Upperdash arm much more safe (more reliable super armor, much less end lag), and keep Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm not safe (with him being able to kill with it around 120 - 130% instead of 140 - 150%).

It doesn't have to be a difference much different from Lucas and Ness, but it's crazy how these two characters barely even have mechanical differences.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It doesn't have to be a difference much different from Lucas and Ness, but it's crazy how these two characters barely even have mechanical differences.

True, even the Melee clones had pretty drastic mechanical differences. Fox ran faster while Falco jumped higher. The weight and size difference between young and Adult Link made a world of difference. Ganondorf even had a few different moves like the jab, forward air and the infamous up-tilt. Roy's mechanics drastically altered his playstyle from Marth and Pichu... err was a thing.

 

[disfrozen]

To be honest, I quite like Dark Pit's moveset as it is. The only things I'd change right now is his Nspec, and his Final Smash as a consequence of that.

The Dark Pit Staff as a neutral special could work like R.O.B's laser, becoming stronger over time, but different in the sense that the full charge is a hitscan beam, or, even better, like Thoron (not in power, just visually and effectively), and the uncharged shots are like... Mewtwo's f-throw, with a much lower angle (read: multishot forward, but it can still be angled). It'll only fire the laser at full charge, like in Uprising.
This is mostly because, let's be honest, nobody likes the fact that DP's arrows have lesser control with no tradeoff. Yes, I said no tradeoff. The extra damage is negligible, and the extra hitstun is unnoticeable. Basically everyone prefers Pit's arrows, and this can be seen with everyone picking Guiding Arrows.
The Nspec change could be helped with lowering the angle at which the Electroshock Arm launches, instead of approx. 60 dgrees, it could be like 40, so a sucessful hit could be followed up with a laser shot, or getting a gimp kill with the three rapid fire shots.

Then, the Final Smash could be him calling on Phosphora to bring the Lightning Chariot, making a pretty nice reference to him being in the Forces of Nature now. The Final Smash would work like a Dragoon hit, and the animation could be similar to when he hit the Chaos Vortex portal in Chapter 20.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, give Pit his Brawl moveset and give Dark Pit the SSB4 moveset they both share.

But seriously, as a Dark Pit mainer, the only thing I want is even the smallest incentive to use Dark Pit over Pit. Yeah, I win more with Dark Pit and I think he's a cooler character, but even I can acknowledge he's completely outclassed by Pit. Even mechanically, he has no advantages over Pit.

Why don't you increase his knockback on his attacks? Buff Dark Pit's strength or kill power (since everyone thinks he's stronger anyway), but give Pit the better DAir and aerial attacks. Make Pit's Upperdash arm much more safe (more reliable super armor, much less end lag), and keep Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm not safe (with him being able to kill with it around 120 - 130% instead of 140 - 150%).

It doesn't have to be a difference much different from Lucas and Ness, but it's crazy how these two characters barely even have mechanical differences.

Brawl Pit was broke, SSB4 Pit is the result of balancing. Not going to happen.

Honestly, all they have to do is give his arrows a piercing effect and he'd be pretty darned useful.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

Here's what I thought

Give him the Dark Pit Staff, and then have him use most of Shulk's smashes without the extra range
Damaging ^ and vB's a Default
And make his Neutral B the same as Rob's with double the range but you also have to manually charge it

 

[Mypantisgone]

Changing his bow to another weapon would require new animations/moves for almost his entire moveset. In that case, he's not a clone anymore. In my opinion, Dark Pit should stay close to Pit, but him AND Pit should get a few new A attacks with Uprising weapons, but they would not have the same attacks with Uprising weapons.
(Random example: D-tilt becomes a Palm for Pit but stays the same for Dark Pit and B-air becomes Claws for Dark Pit but stays the same for Pit, I dunno)
And the bow attacks that they keep in common would have slight differences in damage and knockback. This would be a true Luigification.

 

[Braydon]

And Megaman doesn't exactly have a ton of air speed either.

Charge moves are terrible because they're terrible. They require a gimmick on top of them to be useful at all. Mac's armor, Ike's hitbox that hits the ledge, and Marth's shield breaking power give them uses. Kirby and DDD's hammers are largely considered to be their worst moves, and Kirby's hammer change is seen strictly as a nerf.

Yes, it's a worse version of another move and not worth making a character around.

Windboxes have different uses from hitboxes. GOs aren't a generic attack now because you can't really use them to attack, all you can do with the windbox is shove people while they're recovering. And that's still nothing to base a character around.

Did I say that? I said that tethers themselves are crap and aren't unique. You're only trying to make DP stand out from Pit when you should be trying to make him stand out from the entire roster.

It doesn't stand out from the rest of the roster? So what, having a tether grab makes him just like samus? No because none of his other moves are like other characters with tether grabs, samus doesn't have any other attacks, the move set I made up is unique from all other characters, no other character fights like that, and honestly saying it's just another tether grab? I've got news for you, most characters have very little difference between their grabs, if having the same grab made characters the same the only unique characters would be pac man and bowser jr.

Changing his bow to another weapon would require new animations/moves for almost his entire moveset.

This is not even remotely true, he can use the bow for normal attacks and the staff in a special, there's no reason he has to use the same weapon for his As and his neutral special.

 

[Mypantisgone]

This is not even remotely true, he can use the bow for normal attacks and the staff in a special, there's no reason he has to use the same weapon for his As and his neutral special.

Oh... When people said that they should change his bow, I thought they meant the weapon itself... Just Neutral-B is fine.

But I agree with other users that if the Staff is seen as a Final Smash type weapon, maybe we need something else.

 

[LancerStaff]

It doesn't stand out from the rest of the roster? So what, having a tether grab makes him just like samus? No because none of his other moves are like other characters with tether grabs, samus doesn't have any other attacks, the move set I made up is unique from all other characters, no other character fights like that, and honestly saying it's just another tether grab? I've got news for you, most characters have very little difference between their grabs, if having the same grab made characters the same the only unique characters would be pac man and bowser jr.


This is not even remotely true, he can use the bow for normal attacks and the staff in a special, there's no reason he has to use the same weapon for his As and his neutral special.

It doesn't make him stand out because we have like 10+ of them already. It doesn't make him like Samus, but that one move will be.

How many new characters in SSB4 are just bit and pieces of other characters besides clones and (arguably) Miis? Zero. Exactly. To anybody but fans of the character they're a waste of space, which is why it doesn't happen and won't happen.

 

[Braydon]

It doesn't make him stand out because we have like 10+ of them already. It doesn't make him like Samus, but that one move will be.

How many new characters in SSB4 are just bit and pieces of other characters besides clones and (arguably) Miis? Zero. Exactly. To anybody but fans of the character they're a waste of space, which is why it doesn't happen and won't happen.

...

They're not pieces of other characters though... They're moves with some similarities to existing moves, they're not moves that are copy pasted from other characters.

And plenty of characters are made from moves similar to existing ones.

 

[LancerStaff]

...

They're not pieces of other characters though... They're moves with some similarities to existing moves, they're not moves that are copy pasted from other characters.

And plenty of characters are made from moves similar to existing ones.

Why should we include a character who doesn't have a single unique thing to them?

So we should include whole characters just because of minor differences? When we just got totally unique characters like Robin and Megaman?

Entirely? No full character added Brawl onwards is.

 

[Braydon]

Why should we include a character who doesn't have a single unique thing to them?

So we should include whole characters just because of minor differences? When we just got totally unique characters like Robin and Megaman?

Entirely? No full character added Brawl onwards is.

...

You're the one who said their were only minor differences, that's something you made up. All I said is they have similarities, not that they're the same. Almost all moves have similarities to other moves, take Ike's eruption for example, it's similar to marth's shield breaker, Aether is similar to kirby's final cutter, Ike's counter is basically the same as marth's, and his side special isn't much different from other dash attacks. If my moveset would be a waste of time, then by that logic Ike shouldn't be in game.

And I'm pretty sure the up special I listed was unique, actually nothing was to close to something in game except the grab, and grabs are almost all the same.

 

[LancerStaff]

...

You're the one who said their were only minor differences, that's something you made up. All I said is they have similarities, not that they're the same. Almost all moves have similarities to other moves, take Ike's eruption for example, it's similar to marth's shield breaker, Aether is similar to kirby's final cutter, Ike's counter is basically the same as marth's, and his side special isn't much different from other dash attacks. If my moveset would be a waste of time, then by that logic Ike shouldn't be in game.

And I'm pretty sure the up special I listed was unique, actually nothing was to close to something in game except the grab, and grabs are almost all the same.

Ike is the slowest overall character and his recovery is garbage but has great range and power. There's no character like him.

You admitted it was just a worse version of Jr.'s...

Quit giving these "by your definition blah blah blah" and actually explain why that moveset deserves to be in the game.

 

[Braydon]

Ike is the slowest overall character and his recovery is garbage but has great range and power. There's no character like him.

You admitted it was just a worse version of Jr.'s...

Quit giving these "by your definition blah blah blah" and actually explain why that moveset deserves to be in the game.

I don't think anyone else is having near as much trouble imagining this moveset as you, but fine. First though I'd just like to point out that the slowest overall character is Ganon, and he's the one with a garbage recovery so... You just described Ganon.


The idea behind the moveset I made, is to give him a sort of hit and run mechanic and good zoning, unlike other zoners he's at his best when mobile. I'll go through the moves again with examples for uses:

Dark pit staff, fires a continuous stream of weak projectiles forward while held, dark pit can still move back and forth while using the move but at a reduced rate, just like how he can still walk slower in uprising. (think kirby charging hammer speed)

Since it can be used while moving, it's useful in covering approaches and retreats, in addition to the normal use for projectiles in breaking up enemy approaches.
Ogre club, Slow chargeable attack, with high range and damage, if fully charged it releases it's large projectile which rolls slowly forward dealing damage to anyone who touches it and not disappearing. (or being reflected by reflectors)

As with all chargeable specials, it can be used out of a hop, allowing it to be used as a fairly powerful, if slow poke, as well as helping fulfil his need for KO options. At full charge it also releases a powerful slow projectile that can help you zone and potentially KO.
Cannon launch, fires an easy cannon shot downward propelling himself up, Can be angled, but propels you up less than power of flight and has a longer start up time. The shot is slow and will roll along the ground for a short distance, if it collides with a foe while in the air it has a minor meteor effect.

First I'd like to mention that while slow, it's not like bowser jr's cart, it's faster than that and explodes on contact rather than a timer. Now this move in addition to being used to recover can make a fairly decent if risky poke, releasing the shot and jumping backward, or even forward to be in better position for a follow up if one is confident they'll hit, it can also be used off stage to gimp by dropping the projectile on an enemy.
Shock orbiters, Longer startup and a smaller hitbox than guardian orbiters, deals small damage and stuns enemies hit, deflects projectiles instead of reflecting.

This move is entirely different in usage, being a close ranged melee hit, it can be used for mix ups to catch your foe off guard. Please note that it stuns allowing for follow ups.
Violet palm, Tether grab. Extends an arm of translucent violet magic from his palm to grab enemies.
Tether grabs are common in zoners for a reason, they're basically zoning grabs since they can reach out a long distance, it helps tie together his moveset and has some decent combo potential, you could even pull someone into an ogre club shot.
Dark pit throws them up and then shoots 2 shots up at them from his palm
The arm throws them forward
Dark pit turns around and a burst of violet energy explodes from his palm launching his enemy
The violet arm lifts them up and bounces them of the ground
These are throws, what do you want from them? Lets face it throws are basically the same for every character.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think anyone else is having near as much trouble imagining this moveset as you, but fine. First though I'd just like to point out that the slowest overall character is Ganon, and he's the one with a garbage recovery so... You just described Ganon.


The idea behind the moveset I made, is to give him a sort of hit and run mechanic and good zoning, unlike other zoners he's at his best when mobile. I'll go through the moves again with examples for uses:

Dark pit staff, fires a continuous stream of weak projectiles forward while held, dark pit can still move back and forth while using the move but at a reduced rate, just like how he can still walk slower in uprising. (think kirby charging hammer speed)

Since it can be used while moving, it's useful in covering approaches and retreats, in addition to the normal use for projectiles in breaking up enemy approaches.
Ogre club, Slow chargeable attack, with high range and damage, if fully charged it releases it's large projectile which rolls slowly forward dealing damage to anyone who touches it and not disappearing. (or being reflected by reflectors)

As with all chargeable specials, it can be used out of a hop, allowing it to be used as a fairly powerful, if slow poke, as well as helping fulfil his need for KO options. At full charge it also releases a powerful slow projectile that can help you zone and potentially KO.
Cannon launch, fires an easy cannon shot downward propelling himself up, Can be angled, but propels you up less than power of flight and has a longer start up time. The shot is slow and will roll along the ground for a short distance, if it collides with a foe while in the air it has a minor meteor effect.

First I'd like to mention that while slow, it's not like bowser jr's cart, it's faster than that and explodes on contact rather than a timer. Now this move in addition to being used to recover can make a fairly decent if risky poke, releasing the shot and jumping backward, or even forward to be in better position for a follow up if one is confident they'll hit, it can also be used off stage to gimp by dropping the projectile on an enemy.
Shock orbiters, Longer startup and a smaller hitbox than guardian orbiters, deals small damage and stuns enemies hit, deflects projectiles instead of reflecting.
This move is entirely different in usage, being a close ranged melee hit, it can be used for mix ups to catch your foe off guard. Please note that it stuns allowing for follow ups.
Violet palm, Tether grab. Extends an arm of translucent violet magic from his palm to grab enemies.
Tether grabs are common in zoners for a reason, they're basically zoning grabs since they can reach out a long distance, it helps tie together his moveset and has some decent combo potential, you could even pull someone into an ogre club shot.
Dark pit throws them up and then shoots 2 shots up at them from his palm
The arm throws them forward
Dark pit turns around and a burst of violet energy explodes from his palm launching his enemy
The violet arm lifts them up and bounces them of the ground
These are throws, what do you want from them? Lets face it throws are basically the same for every character.

Dorf doesn't have as much reach and his recovery isn't nearly as rigid. Ike's attacks are physically slower then Dorf's.

We've already gone through this moveset and determined it's nothing special, but I'll kill it again if you really want me to.

Megaman's lemons. They can also be used while retreating with a backwards hop.

Never going to reach that charge without a useful gimmick. A large and slow projectile isn't even unique in of itself because we have Aura Sphere. Using those charge moves as a poke? Yeah, no. Doesn't work unless you're Marth because it eats shields. Never seen Mac, Ike, DDD and Kirby use 'em like a poke ever, and for good reason.

Jr.'s Ejection Seat holds the opponent in place on the first hit, rendering the whole "explodes on contact" thing moot. We also have Elwind for a Uspecial projectile meteor. And since your move is both laggy and would give up space in neutral I can't fathom how in the world it would be useful. How many trap moves do we have anyway? Most apparent one is the can, being all-around more useful then this move outside of recovery.

We have plenty of short ranged moves that hold the opponent in place, and we just got another. Again, you're trying too hard to distance him from Pit and not taking into account that we have plenty of moves like this already.

Yeah, you're not really getting much unique out of throws. But a tether still isn't unique.

And it still doesn't make any sense because Palms have almost no Melee range. Smash the dummy with a Club and then a Palm and you'll immediately notice the difference.

 

[Braydon]

We've already gone through this moveset and determined it's nothing special, but I'll kill it again if you really want me to.

Oh really? Because from were I'm standing it sounds like you want to use dark pit as a costume so you hate on anyone who doesn't.

You'll kill it? You'll absolutely fail to understand what is needed in a moveset.

 

[LancerStaff]

Oh really? Because from were I'm standing it sounds like you want to use dark pit as a costume so you hate on anyone who doesn't.

You'll kill it? You'll absolutely fail to understand what is needed in a moveset.

First of all I don't want DP to be made worse with crappy ideas like a tether or a stall-then-fall Dair much like Lucas was. He's one good buff away from being equal to Pit, and there's tons of ways to do it.

I don't understand what is needed for a moveset? You're the one that thinks those charge moves are useful as a poke of all things.

 

[Braydon]

First of all I don't want DP to be made worse with crappy ideas like a tether or a stall-then-fall Dair much like Lucas was. He's one good buff away from being equal to Pit, and there's tons of ways to do it.

I don't understand what is needed for a moveset? You're the one that thinks those charge moves are useful as a poke of all things.

No I don't think they are... But an ogre club has massive range...

 

[SimonBarSinister]

No I don't think they are... But an ogre club has massive range...

What I gathered from your idea is this: The Ogre Club would be useful as an edge guarding tool. If you should knock your target away you'd have ample time to charge the club and release its large radius shot, which could make recovering a risky endeavor for the opponent. Sometimes you can just scare your target into the lower blast zone by readying a powerful shot. That's my thought, anyway.

 

[Braydon]

What I gathered from your idea is this: The Ogre Club would be useful as an edge guarding tool. If you should knock your target away you'd have ample time to charge the club and release its large radius shot, which could make recovering a risky endeavor for the opponent. Sometimes you can just scare your target into the lower blast zone by readying a powerful shot. That's my thought, anyway.

Yes of course, I was only speaking of poking as one possible use, if you use it without charging.

 

[disfrozen]

I still think that his neutral special should be the DP Staff. Supposedly it's his iconic weapon, even being in his concept art, but he barely uses it. An Autoreticle-style three shot burst would suffice for the uncharged version (aimable, like R.O.B's laser, not that weirdo aiming Palutena has), and the charged shot being a beam with high damage and mid-to-high launch power.

tbh, that's the only change I'd want, his moveset is good enough as it is. And, if you won't give him the control that Pit's arrows have, give him the power of his own staff. And the gimping potential of the three shots, of course (damage and hitstun similar to Falco's blaster).

 

[Braydon]

I still think that his neutral special should be the DP Staff. Supposedly it's his iconic weapon, even being in his concept art, but he barely uses it. An Autoreticle-style three shot burst would suffice for the uncharged version (aimable, like R.O.B's laser, not that weirdo aiming Palutena has), and the charged shot being a beam with high damage and mid-to-high launch power.

tbh, that's the only change I'd want, his moveset is good enough as it is. And, if you won't give him the control that Pit's arrows have, give him the power of his own staff. And the gimping potential of the three shots, of course (damage and hitstun similar to Falco's blaster).

Why would you want it to work like that? I really don't feel like we need to have another charge like ROBs, honestly if it has to charge I'd prefer a more standard charge.

Honestly though I'd prefer it had the sustained fire while moving like in uprising.

If not I'd like him to have a fairly high power shot with a large aiming arc but a charge animation on the start giving it large start up.



Also why do you think that's the only thing that should be changed?

 

[LancerStaff]

No I don't think they are... But an ogre club has massive range...

Ask any decent Smasher and they'll tell you all those moves are terrible. Lucas in Brawl dropped a whole tier from Ness simply because of his tether.

Judging from the Ore Club that's currently in Smash, it wouldn't be enough.

Yes of course, I was only speaking of poking as one possible use, if you use it without charging.

You run into problems with it at every turn. If it's slow, most characters can just go under it easily. Fast, and it's too easy to airdodge. A butterzone could exist, albit for a handfull of characters. Even if it was actual-size then you'd still have the majority of the cast slipping through. Normally this wouldn't be a problem for a projectile, but this is something you're trying to define your moveset with.

 

[Deleted member]

Okay i uh.... "copied" some ideas from here and put them in a fighters plan document for a Smash fan game of mine that isn't very likely to ever come out. But here they are anyways.

B Move - The popularly suggested Sniper Shot, take aim and fire. Worst at melee range, best at far range. Charge it for max power. Functions just like a Super Scope in your pocket.
Side special - Have yet to think of one sadly.
Up Special - Similar to his normal one but it should be reworked to look less holy. Replace the DING sfx with something shadowy and the rainbow with... well. Shadows. Purple. Maybe even the shadow bugs you see in his normal bow shot.
Down Special - Have yet to think of one for this either. I haven't really gotten a good scoop on Kid Icarus Uprising ( i basically HEARD of Dark Pit through Smash 4. Same with Shulk, dont kill me plz >.< )
Dash Attack - The kick to guts from the cutscene!
New Final Smash - Pandora's Box from Street Fighter x Tekken, cuz why not?

 

[Braydon]

Ask any decent Smasher and they'll tell you all those moves are terrible. Lucas in Brawl dropped a whole tier from Ness simply because of his tether.

Judging from the Ore Club that's currently in Smash, it wouldn't be enough.



You run into problems with it at every turn. If it's slow, most characters can just go under it easily. Fast, and it's too easy to airdodge. A butterzone could exist, albit for a handfull of characters. Even if it was actual-size then you'd still have the majority of the cast slipping through. Normally this wouldn't be a problem for a projectile, but this is something you're trying to define your moveset with.

Yes of course if you assume broken frame data my moveset doesn't work... That's because, oh wait broken frame data can screw any moveset.

Also the ogre club is not the basis of the set... It's just a piece.


Lets assume for the moment the frame data goes something like this:
Start up, 10 frames (the time when he draws the weapon, can be released on frame 11 or charged further)

30 frames to max charge

Release, partial charge:
Active frames: 7-9 (when it deals damage)
Total frames: 33

Release, full charge: (the animation and frame data is changed when you get the projectile)
Active frames: 22-25
Total frames: 43

Using this example lets analyze the uses, while it is slow taking a minimum of 43 frames and max of 83, it can hit as soon as frame 17, still not fast, however if you use it with a short hop or full hop you can have the start up frames out of the way before you get in range, and be able to hit on frame 7. Also please note you can bait a dodge and then hit later seeing as you can hold for up to 30 frames.

Of course at max charge it's very slow and has the projectile, filling an alternate use.

Also the projectile is not like aura sphere... It's much slower and a little bigger than a max aura sphere, like the ogre club shot in kid icarus it's very slow and lasts a long time.




@JackerX
... His up special looks like that because it's how he looks when he flies in kid icarus...

 

[Deleted member]

Well for a DARK character you'd expect something a bit... different.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Moveset fun
Jab - An overhead strike using the butt of his staff followed by a forward jab and finally ending it with a quick slash with the point of his staff (essentially kiu's staff melee combo)

F-tilt - Overhead strike using the butt of his staff

D-tilt - a poke using his staff

U-tilt - same as his one now only with one swift kick

For smashes the ogre club size is reduced because that thing is huge (Maybe DDD's Hammer or a tad smaller)

F-smash - The all powerful ogre club swing
Strong knockback and damage but a bit of cooldown to compensate

D-smash - A spinning swing from the ogre club (similar to the clubs side dash continuous fire from Kiu)

Up smash - either a cannon shot similar to snake's or an upward swing similar to Ike's

Aerials
Nair - a simple jump kick
Fair - a charge shot from his Ez Cannon (recoil pushes him back and this move has a bit more range than villager's Fair)
Dair - a downward shot from his Ez Cannon
(spikes at point blank shot doesn't disappear like his Fair)
Bair - A backwards variant of his Fair
U-air - An upwards shot

Dash attack - (so many choices) either his staff dash attack from Kiu, his club dash attack, his dash kick (the gut/guardian destroyer), or a dash attack similar to snake's Dacus

The grab utilizes the violet palm
Pummel - sends a Shockwave of energy into the opponent
Fonward throw - a push that looks similar to the last hit of his palm melee combo in Kiu he fires a charge shot at them which does most of the damage

Back throw - The he has now is fine

Up throw - he tosses the opponent and fires some continuous fire from the palm

Down throw - he throws the opponent down and fires a shot at them. The opponent stays grounded and has to result in his or her getup options

Specials

B - Dark Pit staff - Can either fire small projectiles with no hitstun or wait until the tip glows indicating that you can fire a potent charge shot

Side B - Electroshock arm - Same

Down B - Guardian Orbitars - fires only in front

Up B - Same

Taunts

Up - points his cannon up and fires (nothing comes out)

Side - Points his staff and yells "Watch Out"

Down - Stabs his staff into the ground and turns his back to the players

Please rate 10/10

 

[LancerStaff]

Yes of course if you assume broken frame data my moveset doesn't work... That's because, oh wait broken frame data can screw any moveset.

Also the ogre club is not the basis of the set... It's just a piece.


Lets assume for the moment the frame data goes something like this:
Start up, 10 frames (the time when he draws the weapon, can be released on frame 11 or charged further)

30 frames to max charge

Release, partial charge:
Active frames: 7-9 (when it deals damage)
Total frames: 33

Release, full charge: (the animation and frame data is changed when you get the projectile)
Active frames: 22-25
Total frames: 43

Using this example lets analyze the uses, while it is slow taking a minimum of 43 frames and max of 83, it can hit as soon as frame 17, still not fast, however if you use it with a short hop or full hop you can have the start up frames out of the way before you get in range, and be able to hit on frame 7. Also please note you can bait a dodge and then hit later seeing as you can hold for up to 30 frames.

Of course at max charge it's very slow and has the projectile, filling an alternate use.

Also the projectile is not like aura sphere... It's much slower and a little bigger than a max aura sphere, like the ogre club shot in kid icarus it's very slow and lasts a long time

What is the single, defining reason I would play as this character for gameplay reasons? I'm not seeing any. I'm seeing gimmicks other characters have.

This is how you make a moveset:

Spoiler

The kid up front is Gunvolt. http://gunvolt.com He controls electricity. In-game his powers are limited by an energy meter, so in Smash he has the same meter for his lightning attacks. Certain attacks involving shooting his pistol will have him "lock-on" to opponents, again like his games.

His Nspecial, Flashfield, creates a barrier that protects from physical projectiles and hurts opponents without flinching them unless they get right on top of him. He can move around and using it in the air makes him float slowly back to the ground. Opponents with lock-ons will get zapped with lightning when he uses Flashfield. Consumes energy quickly.

His Dspecial would make him recharge, the whole animation would probably take a little less time then one of Mac's taunts. So rather then waiting to run out like Robin, you have to create an opportunity to recharge.

Fspecial is an air dash. No hitbox, but can be cancelled immediately with another move. Can be used as much as his energy meter will allow.

Uspecial is a chain, functioning like what Olimar had in Brawl. Might make it run on a separate charge from his energy meter so he's not a sitting duck when his energy runs out.

His double jumps also work off his energy, like in his game. No energy, no double jumps.

I could make some normals... But it's really not necessary at this point. He's already defined by his gimmick. Unlike every DP moveset I've even seen.

 

[Deleted member]

Pit and Dark Pit are literal clones. I think their movesets are fine as is.

 

[disfrozen]

Why would you want it to work like that? I really don't feel like we need to have another charge like ROBs, honestly if it has to charge I'd prefer a more standard charge.

Honestly though I'd prefer it had the sustained fire while moving like in uprising.

If not I'd like him to have a fairly high power shot with a large aiming arc but a charge animation on the start giving it large start up.

Also why do you think that's the only thing that should be changed?

Because the R.O.B charge, as you say, is the way the staff charged in Uprising.

Sustained fire while moving is not really convenient, also permanent -or long- continuous projectile shots aren't a good idea, so it'd be better if the Dark Pit Staff just shot three Falco-blaster-level shots, because those'd be useful for both gimping and poking, and could also apply pressure. There's also the fact that a continuous shot would require long ending lag, forcing you to either keep shooting in an unfavorable situation, or to just not use it at all.
The quick shots could have shorter -much shorter- ending lag, making them much more reliable. The charge shot is a reward for using it properly, that's why it'd be narrow and powerful, so you wouldn't get anything off a random shot, but a set-up shot would kill easily.

Large startups are just asking for the special to be unused. It makes moves way too situational. Ending lag is better, because short startup lag and long ending lag means a good counterplay option, in that if you use it properly you'll get rewarded, and you'll get punished by using it stupidly.

I think that's the only thing that it should be changed, because, as it has been said many times, he's a clone of Pit, like it or not. He has Pit's fighting skills, he has Pit's physical capacities, and, like it or not, he is basically the hidden side of Pit. Even in Uprising this is shown, and used a lot. I say that the DP Staff being his Nspec, and maybe the flying kick being his dash attack or Nair should be the only changes because he should stay similar to Pit. You can use the chance to show off his differences, small as they are: the staff, his main weapon being the Silver Bow, his sharp wit (already in finishing screens), his flying kick, he being in the Forces of Nature (up-spec courtesy of Viridi), and some other small things. You could even add the removed power from his f-tilt into his f-throw, switch some small things in his air speed and whatnot, and there, you could make him a projectile-keepaway-into-combo based character (like Link, I guess), and leave Pit as a spacing-combo character. There's your Luigification.

-drops mic-

 

[MarioMeteor]

I want to know how the creator of Dark Pit got his signature weapon so bass ackwards. The Dark Pit Staff is supposed to get stronger as the shot travels. It's the complete opposite here. The last person who the Staff pierces is supposed to get one-shotted, not the first. I really do think Dark Pit should get Luigified. It's a crime for a character that can wield such a wide variety of weaponry to have the exact same moveset as Pit. I agree that the Dark Pit Staff should be Dark Pit's main weapon. I mean, it's not called the I'm Going To Pull This Out Of My Ass And Use It To Show Off Staff, it's called the Dark Pit Staff. For Dark Pit to use. And he could use the Viridi Palm and the First Blade.

 

[Braydon]

@ LancerStaff
You know what, I'm not going to explain anything to you, you're just going to **** on it no matter what, you've done nothing but say **** about everyone and everything they say for this entire thread.

Guess what genius, characters don't need a gimmick. Tell me what is pits gimmick? He doesn't have one! Ganon doesn't, Ike doesn't, falco doesn't. If we went by these rules you made up we'd need to remove over half the cast. You say I can't tape together two moves? What is ganon's side special? A grab taped on to the end of raptor boost, what's his up special? Falcons with a punch on the end.

And you say moves can't be similar at all, by your definition nothing pit does is unique, no pits should exist according to the criteria you made up. Upperdash arm? It's raptor boost with reflect. Guardian orbiters? They're just a reflect with a push hitbox. Power of flight? It's extreme speed stripped of aura effect with less ability to aim. His bow? It's a sideways PK thunder with less aim that can't hit you.

But you know what? Not every move needs to be completely different and alien to everything else in the game, and for that matter it can't, the smash team wouldn't finish 10 fighters a game if they used your insane criteria.

Pit and Dark Pit are literal clones. I think their movesets are fine as is.

They are physically the same, but that doesn't mean they fight the same way... The defining factor of how they fight is the weapon they're using, so why make them the same when you can have one use different weapons?

Because the R.O.B charge, as you say, is the way the staff charged in Uprising.

Sustained fire while moving is not really convenient, also permanent -or long- continuous projectile shots aren't a good idea, so it'd be better if the Dark Pit Staff just shot three Falco-blaster-level shots, because those'd be useful for both gimping and poking, and could also apply pressure. There's also the fact that a continuous shot would require long ending lag, forcing you to either keep shooting in an unfavorable situation, or to just not use it at all.
The quick shots could have shorter -much shorter- ending lag, making them much more reliable. The charge shot is a reward for using it properly, that's why it'd be narrow and powerful, so you wouldn't get anything off a random shot, but a set-up shot would kill easily.

Large startups are just asking for the special to be unused. It makes moves way too situational. Ending lag is better, because short startup lag and long ending lag means a good counterplay option, in that if you use it properly you'll get rewarded, and you'll get punished by using it stupidly.

I think that's the only thing that it should be changed, because, as it has been said many times, he's a clone of Pit, like it or not. He has Pit's fighting skills, he has Pit's physical capacities, and, like it or not, he is basically the hidden side of Pit. Even in Uprising this is shown, and used a lot. I say that the DP Staff being his Nspec, and maybe the flying kick being his dash attack or Nair should be the only changes because he should stay similar to Pit. You can use the chance to show off his differences, small as they are: the staff, his main weapon being the Silver Bow, his sharp wit (already in finishing screens), his flying kick, he being in the Forces of Nature (up-spec courtesy of Viridi), and some other small things. You could even add the removed power from his f-tilt into his f-throw, switch some small things in his air speed and whatnot, and there, you could make him a projectile-keepaway-into-combo based character (like Link, I guess), and leave Pit as a spacing-combo character. There's your Luigification.

-drops mic-

That's how it works in game? Ya that's how the charge works, but in game you can move while firing, yours isn't any closer to the in game one than mine.

And who said mine had to have long startup lag? I'd just give it decent endlag.



Why would you only change one or two moves? That's not luigification that's making him the doc of puts. Luigi has two entirely different specials and small changes all around the board, that's what makes him unique.