Dash grab could use some benefits?

[skstylez]

I had a lot of fun throwing down some matches with Wario. For some reason I am overly obsessed with his special dash grab, maybe because we have never seen this mechanic in smash. I do have to say i don't see any benefits when you look. Faster characters simply running and grabbing is better, and they don't have to fully commit so early. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought of a few suggestions:
1. Super/light armor while dashing. Please enable pivot grabbing though.. in general!
2. Stronger/special throw based on distance dashed
3. Being able to change dash directions

Just to clarify these are separate suggestions not combined. Feel free to post some as well!

 

[Shell]

The beauty of dash grab's design is that purely from a timing standpoint it's the slowest in the game (iirc) -- it should be awful!... however by virtue of it being identical in appearance to his Side-B, a move that's very advantageous to shield, it becomes possible to use dash grab and land it as an occasional mixup.

The ability to vary the length & timing of the dash grab based upon when you release the grab button is probably as much of a special feature as I'd feel comfortable applying to one normal move, and it is already much more useful than the average dash grab as it provides a unique role that isn't eclipsed by jump cancel grab.

 

[skstylez]

Sorry, jump cancel grab?
And what about not being able to pivot grab at the end, is that out of the comfort zone?
I didn't see it being a very great mixup unless you realllly favor Side B (aka spam). Though my friend was inexperienced vs Wario, so i can't say if he was trying to block>punish my charges

and plus warios throw... not the best. The risk/reward of his side B vs the dash grab is clear

 

[Shell]

If you run, press jump, and then press grab while you slide in the crouch pose *before* you actually jump and leave the ground you will do a mobile standing grab. Since the slide gives you some distance and standing grabs are almost always faster to start and/or end a jump cancel grab is better than a dash grab in most scenarios for most characters.

Warios throws are actually good in their own way. There is a DI mixup between down throw and a quick forward throw that can get you pretty good follow ups. If you charge up forward throw it is a very capable killing throw. Using the movement of B throw can get you over to a ledge for gimps when the knock back alone wouldn't normally allow something like that.

As for a dash turn grab, the actual grab portion of the dash grab has pretty wide coverage in front, inside, and slightly behind Wario. To be honest I'm having trouble picturing scenarios where dash turn grab would be especially helpful.

 

[Ace55]

Warios throws are actually good in their own way. There is a DI mixup between down throw and a quick forward throw that can get you pretty good follow ups. If you charge up forward throw it is a very capable killing throw. Using the movement of B throw can get you over to a ledge for gimps when the knock back alone wouldn't normally allow something like that.

And unless something was changed upthrow links into upair against a decent portion of the cast. All Wario's throws have a function.

 

[skstylez]

i didn't say his throws sucked, but they are no shiek or falcon. Pivot grabs are always helpful. If you overshoot it you can pivot. Since his is so slow if i were to predict a tech roll to the right, but they tech in place, in some cases you would be able to pivot in time to catch them. Also the burden of ALL of his dash grabs doing that little dash, it would definitely compensate the lost position

 

[Juushichi]

I'm pretty sure you can still pivot, you just have to do the Melee Pivot.

I would hope that Wario would not have a Sheik/Falcon throw game. He is already ridiculous enough.

 

[Strong Badam]

wario can still do a turn grab...

 

[skstylez]

wario can still do a turn grab...

yeah he can, but not while using the dash grab they gave him

 

[Strong Badam]

why would you be able to do a turn grab while doing a dash grab? we do our best to adhere to smash rules when we design characters, and as Shell said his dash grab is already quite feature-rich, it'd definitely be crossing the line if we let him turn around during it.

 

[skstylez]

Because uses so much more commitment than a normal grab, and Shell admitted that it is indeed WORSE than a normal grab. Pivot grabs (not running backwards, in case we're no ton the same page) would give him a little more leeway. It's just that move takes so much commitment, it would be nice if it were on equal grounds with a normal grab.
I think the opposite, that it's a great mechanic but feature-dry. Shell said he wanted to keep it that way as to not cause imbalance. Which i'm fine with, balance comes before flash. Every character pivot grabs in brawl, so I think that being left out is more confusing than anything

 

[AbstractLogic]

The idea behind most of wario's moveset is based around trickery in general and honestly his dash grab is the ultimate 50/50. Try doing it in scenarios where a Side-B would be the obvious thing to do.

 

[Ace55]

Another funny thing about Wario's dash grab is that it made it painfully clear to me that I suck at jc grabbing . Which has improved a ton since I've started playing him.

 

[skstylez]

The idea behind most of wario's moveset is based around trickery in general and honestly his dash grab is the ultimate 50/50. Try doing it in scenarios where a Side-B would be the obvious thing to do.

but i could be SOOO much trickery with the simple pivot enabled >.<. Enemy comes down, start dashing "HAH! way too early scrub" then BAM, pivot. not to mention how i already touched on tech chasing and positioning. It's too situational now and would only be less situational if we could pivot, i see no harm

Ace55 BAM, msg count. i'll try this jc grabbing

 

[Strong Badam]

Every character pivot grabs in brawl, so I think that being left out is more confusing than anything

he can pivot grab though :/

 

[Oro?!]

You can alter the length of the dash grab. You can still pivot grab. You have a JC grab. If anything Wario has more grab options since a majority of dash grabs suck. I don't understand your concerns skstylez...

 

[skstylez]

You can alter the length of the dash grab. You can still pivot grab. You have a JC grab. If anything Wario has more grab options since a majority of dash grabs suck. I don't understand your concerns skstylez...

We already addressed that his special grab is the slowest in the game. I admit i forgot to try this JC grab when i played today, but 5 times out of 10 pivoting would have helped me. Maybe my playstyle is completely different than you guys, I pivot grab with ZSS, DK, and even falcon

he can pivot grab though :/

It's like a never replied to this comment before!

How about you guys give me reason why he shouldn't have a dash pivot grab, since you keep questioning its usefulness. "He doesn't need one" is not an answer

 

[#HBC | Joker]

As useless as I actually find his dash grab to be, even if it is a really awesome idea that just happens to not work that well in practice (at least for me), it's completely not a problem. Just jump cancel grab, it's what I usually do.

 

[Strong Badam]

How about you guys give me reason why he shouldn't have a dash pivot grab, since you keep questioning its usefulness. "He doesn't need one" is not an answer

How about you give reasons that we haven't already addressed for him HAVING one? If you take this approach with everything then everyone has jump cancelable moves on anything and the character design in the entire game has no sense of intuitiveness and doesn't reward general smash intelligence. I don't question that it'd be useful, it's always objectively better for a character to have MORE options. The point we're making here is that it's weird, and the additional depth it would add to the character doesn't justify breaking rules to accomplish it.

 

[skstylez]

how is it weird? Wario is currently unplayable for my playstyle, which is fine. I really love pivot grabs and wario can only take that to the next level. "Breaking the rules to accomplish it," you mean it would unbalance him?
see I have given you reasons, but you picked at my wording. Now i'm asking you for reasons. But i'll post things clear and concise

• Besides B moves, this is the only grab that cannot be pivoted
• It requires early commitment unlike a regular grab
• It's slow
• *Slow grab animations can actually benefit pivots
• According to 'Tier List Speculation', Wario is low tier
• He cannot dash grab without activating the special dash
• *This makes Wario struggle to grab an enemy outside of his grab range but short of his dash grab range (is this was JC grab solves?)

 

[~Frozen~]

• Besides B moves, this is the only grab that cannot be pivoted

No dash grab can be pivoted, no idea what you're saying here. He has a standard Pivot grab like every other character.

• It requires early commitment unlike a regular grab

Dash grabs are meant to have more commitment because they usually have more range in exchange for more startup/endlag. Wario's is an extreme case because he can alter the distance of his dash grab, so of course there's a higher level of commitment to it.

• It's slow

Read above.

• According to 'Tier List Speculation', Wario is low tier

There are QUITE a few people there who think Wario is definitely not low tier, some even believe he is Top 10 material.

• He cannot dash grab without activating the special dash

• *This makes Wario struggle to grab an enemy outside of his grab range but short of his dash grab range (is this was JC grab solves?)

Yes, JC Grab can be used as a "standard" dash grab for Wario.

 

[Ace55]

I don't remember the common consensus on Wario ever being low tier since 2.5 came around.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Excuse me to speak so frankly, but i think it'd be a good idea to figure out the character and all its options before you think about changing him, even making demands.

Usual Dashgrab is crap for almost every character. If you don't even know what a JC grab is, you shouldn't make assumptions concerning somebodys grabgame.

Imo warios Dashgrab is pretty amazing. Just by existing, it makes his SideB better, because people have to account for being grabed instead of SideB'd, meaning Shielding the SideB is always risky.

Also, concerning "pivoting" after dashgrabbing: Do you even know what a pivot is? If not, check out a tutorial on youtube. No grab is "pivotable" after starting the grab animation (I count the "special dash" as you call it as the start of the grab animation, because afaik it's started by pushing the grab button). Pivot grabs are ALWAYS standing grabs. There is no Pivot dashgrab. Apparently, if strong bad knows what he's talking about (which he does), he has his usual turnaround grab so where is the problem? Wario has everything other characters have, and even more. (concerning grab options). Why complain?
It seems to me you haven't really grasped how wario/ grab game in general works.

I can see how making wario able to turnaround grab out of his dashgrab animation would buff him, but noone agrees that it is necesary for reasons explained in my post and all of the posts above. Letting him do turnaround grab out of the "special dash" would enable him to punish spotdodges as well as shields with the dashgrab, that's all that'd change.


edit: sry for the rant, i think frozens post already explaines about most of it.

 

[Nguz95]

Last I checked Wario won Apex... He's a pretty dang good character already. Super armor while dashing? That's ridiculously broken.

 

[skstylez]

A few good points raised in the last couple posts. other trash, word picking or concerns that have already been addressed in this thread...

"Letting him do turnaround grab out of the "special dash" would enable him to punish spotdodges"
good point, in fact the only point raised so far in why he should NOT be able to pivot. Although, you would still need to read them to punish this

"Dash grabs are meant to have more commitment because they usually have more range in exchange for more startup/endlag. Wario's is an extreme case because he can alter the distance of his dash grab, so of course there's a higher level of commitment to it."
No, because running and grabbing them would be faster. The only reason to use this dash grab now is for mindgames, which i'm fine with, I just think being able to pivot would cause more. There is barely a need to alter the distance of your dash grab when you can instead alter the distance of your dash...

"Yes, JC Grab can be used as a "standard" dash grab for Wario"
Thanks.

"Imo warios Dashgrab is pretty amazing. Just by existing, it makes his SideB better, because people have to account for being grabed instead of SideB'd, meaning Shielding the SideB is always risky."
Not reaaally. His throws are not great for killing and not great for comboing. The risk reward is HEAVILY in place of shielding, as that side B is no joke

"No dash grab can be pivoted, no idea what you're saying here. He has a standard Pivot grab like every other character."
Yes! Because no character is canceling their dash with a pivot grab!

"even making demands."
You heard him coders. You love your family? Then i suggest we get started..

Anyhow, i'll concede my suggestion, (SUGGESTION!) since nobody seems to be wanting it or caring. I just hope to see Reflex and others use this grab more since it's a neat mechanic

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah its fine to suggest things, but judging from the other wario main responses, it isn't well received. I also personally don't view this as a necessary change to wario, the current one is fine.

 

[Strong Badam]

Last I checked Wario won Apex... He's a pretty dang good character already. Super armor while dashing? That's ridiculously broken.

he doesn't have armor during his dash.

 

[Nguz95]

The o

he doesn't have armor during his dash.

The op suggested super armor on his dash. I just said that sounded ridiculously broken to me.

 

[\Apples]

and plus warios throw... not the best. The risk/reward of his side B vs the dash grab is clear

Wario's throws are insane, quit joking.

Uthrow chainthrows on fastfallers, charged fthrow gets them offstage, uncharged fthrow is great in teams and is a great mixup with dthrow, which by the way is a tech chase throw which does TWELVE DAMAGE, bthrow is great in teams as well as it has a hitbox around him as he moves, and more importantly a grab at center stage can be converted into a gimp (his gimp game is ridiculously powerful). In fact, I think his bthrow is way too good, as much as I love the idea. If anything, the character's grab needs nerfed a little bit. Pull his grab radius inward to his body just a tad. If the grab is insane, the throws don't need to be insane either. A grab is already inherently a good thing, it's just damage and puts you in control or even better. He doesn't need more grab tricksies.

I don't remember the common consensus on Wario ever being low tier since 2.5 came around.

He was already a very strong character in 2.1, we just had a severely misinformed community because the character saw almost no play and the footage that was out there was of trash players until Reflex joined the PMBR and beefed Wario up. But yeah, ever since 2.5, you'd have to be stupid to call the character low tier.

 

[skstylez]

Wario's throws are insane, quit joking..

Really? Out of all the chars i've picked up (Falcon, DK, ZSS, Ivysaur, Lucario), his EASILY stood out as the worst.
"A grab is already inherently a good thing, it's just damage and puts you in control or even better." ..This is a competitive game. there are good throws and bad ones. I'm sure strongbad himself can tell you what an "insane" throw is

 

[\Apples]

Really? Out of all the chars i've picked up (Falcon, DK, ZSS, Ivysaur, Lucario), his EASILY stood out as the worst.
"A grab is already inherently a good thing, it's just damage and puts you in control or even better." ..This is a competitive game. there are good throws and bad ones. I'm sure strongbad himself can tell you what an "insane" throw is

I don't think anyone needs Strongbad to tell them what an insane throw is, his character speaks for itself. Wario's throwset is definitely not as good as DK's, arguably as good as Falcons, definitely better than ZSS and Ivysaur's (And I'm very familiar with them, I play with Vidjo nearly on a daily basis and he plays both of those characters damn well.), and I can't speak to Lucario because everyone in the entire greater Seattle area just pretends he's not even in the game, myself included.

I think his bthrow shouldn't have access to mobility as it does, it's too good. Yes, you can DI it up really high, but it puts them in perfect position for Wario to work his magic... in the air. You just use his air mobility to bait their double jump, airdodge or attack and space a bair in their face and you're well on your way to converting that into a stock. Bthrow a fast faller? Why should they bother even DI'ing? Too easy to gimp. He might as well be DK as far as throws go, he's pretty damn close. Only thing he's missing is cargo combos but hey, who needs those when you already have an option that just plain works already?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Wario's throw game is literally one of the most versatile in the game, and you're high if you think his throws are bad. No, it's not the "best", but all of his throws are actually super useful. Like, how many characters have all 4 of their throws being totally awesome? The characters you listed definitely don't.

 

[skstylez]

Wario's throw game is literally one of the most versatile in the game, and you're high if you think his throws are bad. No, it's not the "best", but all of his throws are actually super useful. Like, how many characters have all 4 of their throws being totally awesome? The characters you listed definitely don't.

I never said his throws were bad... and you don't need 4 usable throws. One for killing and one for comboing is gold. DK's single throw makes him a god

@Apples I actually haven't seen Warios b-throw being used in such a fashion, any video examples?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

But Wario is all about mixups. He's at his best when he's doing something that the opponent didn't expect, and the fact that he can vary his throw in 5 different ways (up, down, strong forward, weak forward, and back) means it's a total crapshoot for your opponent to guess what you're doing when you grab him.

 

[Ace55]

I actually haven't seen Warios b-throw being used in such a fashion, any video examples?

Grab them, bthrow them, hold towards the ledge during the grab, gimp. No offense but this doesn't seem like the kinda thing you need a video example for...

 

[skstylez]

But Wario is all about mixups. He's at his best when he's doing something that the opponent didn't expect, and the fact that he can vary his throw in 5 different ways (up, down, strong forward, weak forward, and back) means it's a total crapshoot for your opponent to guess what you're doing when you grab him.

His b-throw and charged forward are so slow, i wouldn't call them mix ups

Grab them, bthrow them, hold towards the ledge during the grab, gimp. No offense but this doesn't seem like the kinda thing you need a video example for...

he made it sound broken, like you would kill a spacie with each grab. So yeah, video would be nice.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You can chain grab spacies with uthrow, very similar to the way Marth does.

 

[\Apples]

His b-throw and charged forward are so slow, i wouldn't call them mix ups


he made it sound broken, like you would kill a spacie with each grab. So yeah, video would be nice.

I mean it kind of is, you more or less just jump out after them immediately just as puff would. Obviously watching them very closely and love-tapping them with fair or nair. At higher percents, one hit will do the job. Since spacies' UpB causes them to sit suspended in the air, if you can take their midair jump with a fair, you can usually pretty reliably dair and bounce off their head in a reasonably safe fashion. There's just all sorts of stuff you can do, try it out!

 

[skstylez]

I mean it kind of is, you more or less just jump out after them immediately just as puff would. Obviously watching them very closely and love-tapping them with fair or nair. At higher percents, one hit will do the job. Since spacies' UpB causes them to sit suspended in the air, if you can take their midair jump with a fair, you can usually pretty reliably dair and bounce off their head in a reasonably safe fashion. There's just all sorts of stuff you can do, try it out!

I put Wario away >.>. going more seroius with ZSS and Falcon, then I want to learn Lucario and go hardcore with Samus when she comes out. As I said wario probably just doesn't fit me, but great nostalgia in his moveset, what I love about P:M crew! Next time i pull him out i'll keep that in mind

 

[leelue]

The fact that wario has the dash grab utility that makes side B more threatening (since most people would be thinking about shielding side b approaches instinctively) should be enough since 80% of characters literally only have just JC grabs as viable options. He has an extra toy in his already toy-crammed moveset.