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Damage Gauge: OFF ***Your input appreciated

Mani

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
31
Personally, since the moment I saw this option I loved it. Turning the damage gauge off simply does not show you how hurt you are during a fight. I personally see *no* reason why this is not a tournament standard rule.
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By turning Damage Gauge OFF you are in no way adding randomness or unfairness to any character or player in the game. You ARE however, adding an additional (and imho very inherent) skillset to the match.


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Judging how hurt they are by how far they fly seems, to me, something that Smash should be all about. I'm surprised they didn't have this option earlier. I am hosting a tourney with damage gauge off and have so far gotten some negative reviews of it, but noone can say *WHY*?

So for those of you who agree with me, yay :)

For those of you who think Damage Gauge OFF is a NEGATIVE in TOURNAMENT play, please enlighten me as to why.
 

pockyD

Smash Legend
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
11,926
Location
San Francisco, CA
Judging how hurt they are by how far they fly seems, to me, something that Smash should be all about.

because it should be more rewarding to judge how far they will fly by how much they are hurt, which is what produces combos (in theory.. not so much in brawl :( ) and allows you to use your KO moves when they'll actually KO (managing hit decay is a rewarding skill too)

trying to guess their percent based on their previous knockback is just silly and unrewarding
 

takieddine

Smash Master
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
3,862
Location
Not chilindude829
Its just how all the "true" fighters are set up as well. Its just cumbersome to keep track of their and your percents, also more and more impractical in teams.
 

-Wolfy-

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Miss you Ryan
Ignoring a large aspect of the game and calling it an advancement in the tournament scene is ridiculous to its core. I'm not being inflammatory, but I think it's up there with handicaps in terms of being ridiculous in tournament play.
 

-Wolfy-

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Miss you Ryan
it's like arguing that while baseball is already a game of skill, it would require a lot more skill if they played blindfolded.
 

Mani

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
31
again, ridiuulous arguments like comparing damage gauge off to "playing baseball blindfolded" and yet noone has given me any real REASONING behind it

besides "its dumb"

still would like some actual reasoning if anyone can give me something a little more concrete..
 

ÒÚßÉÑ

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 13, 2008
Messages
4
wow, i'm seeing a lot of negative feedback here, but it all has fallen under "whining with no real reason"

I will definitely be hosting my tournaments with damage gauge off.

comparing it to playing baseball blindfolded is silly...it's more like playing goldeneye without radar

let's take a look at a stamina game like street fighter II. you can see damage, and when you see that they have a sliver left, you basically can finish them off with any sloppy move, even if you take some damage for it. that's how it was. OK. so the damage system was introduced, and at first, you didn't know exactly when people would get KO'd, so you'd have to keep up your game until the match was over. NOW, you've played for a while, and memorized which moves are kill moves at exact percentages. a regression to stamina playing. REMOVE the damage guage, and you're living up to the damage system's virtues.

thanks.
 

Jazriel

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2006
Messages
837
Location
Nepean, ON
If you want reasons why you have it off, give reasons why you have it on.

Turning it off for the novelty of "adding difficulty and skill" is a bad idea.

1) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2) It's useful. Keeping track of your opponents life percent, keeping track of move decay, that requires skill and understanding of the game.


If you want an actual analogy (that baseball one was ********, seriously...):

Imagine playing melee with it off. You're Mr. Falcon fighting Falco. You know he's at around 100% and go for the inescapable stomp -> knee at greater than 98%. But wait, what you didn't know is that Falco is at 97%, so it doesn't work.


How is that "more skillful" or "adding to the game". The percent meter is there for a reason, those who are intelligent enough to utilize it have an advantage. Making it disappear detracts from the gameplay.
"Well, since I don't know what percent you're at, I can't tell if my sweet-spotted Fsmash will kill you, so I'm just going to shoot more fireballs." - Is EXACTLY what will happen.

Bad idea. I'm not going to be immature and criticize you for thinking it's a good idea, but it IS a bad idea. Making people guess when to use their attacks =/= skillful play.
 

Chexr

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Messages
817
Location
Minnesota
There's not going to be any reasoning behind either way because there's no concrete reason either/or just a different way to play and thats an opinion.

Why should we give you reasons? You give us reasons that damage gauge on isn't working.
 

Lefticle

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
361
Location
Edmonton, AB, Canada
Judging your damage by how far you fly would be pointless, since it's not your damage that's important, but how far you fly. It would be a much more strategic metagame if players were made to judge character flight off of percentages rather than just how they flew last time they got hit, which is what you're suggesting.
 

TheDownSyndromeKid

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Messages
43
Judging how hurt they are by how far they fly seems, to me, something that Smash should be all about.
I would argue that knowing your character so well that you know what works at what percents makes you a more skilled player than two players just giving it a whirl and seeing "can this kill you? nope, how about this? nope, maybe now? woohoo, i'm the winner"

In the end, it won't really make a difference, it's more about outthinking your opponent. It is simply a preference, and I think you would find most people would prefer otherwise.

again, ridiuulous arguments like comparing damage gauge off to "playing baseball blindfolded" and yet noone has given me any real REASONING behind it

besides "its dumb"

still would like some actual reasoning if anyone can give me something a little more concrete..
Seriously, don't be so asinine. You've received additional peoples' opinions in response to your query filled with....not sound reasoning....but merely your preference and opinions. So say thank you and move on.
 

Shaman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 25, 2006
Messages
110
Location
mississauaga, Ontario
again, ridiuulous arguments like comparing damage gauge off to "playing baseball blindfolded" and yet noone has given me any real REASONING behind it

besides "its dumb"

still would like some actual reasoning if anyone can give me something a little more concrete..
you have 23 posts, no one owes you a thing, go play like that if thats what you like, theres such a huge list of reasons why the competitive community isn't going to adopt that mode of play that its pointless to post such a thing here.

TL:DR: don't post here, you were looking for the general discussion thread, or better yet Gamefaqs.com .
 

Carouselambra

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
18
i personally think it would be a good idea to turn it off in 4 person FFA simply because people enjoy taking kills. once you're at 100% everyone goes for you and regardless of how well you can take everybody, you're gonna die before anyone else takes significant damage. it becomes a huge loop of going after the higher percentage dud. then again, imagine you couldn't tell how many lives your opponent's had. it's the same idea to some extent and is definitely not a good idea. long story short, keep it on for tournaments, but it could make friendly games much better.

just a sidenote: none of the people i play with support turning it off
 

Miharu

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
6,647
Location
Bay Area, CA
again, ridiuulous arguments like comparing damage gauge off to "playing baseball blindfolded" and yet noone has given me any real REASONING behind it

besides "its dumb"

still would like some actual reasoning if anyone can give me something a little more concrete..
That is "real" reasoning.

You're basically giving all players an unnecessary handicap.
 

Handorin

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 2, 2005
Messages
6,013
again, ridiuulous arguments like comparing damage gauge off to "playing baseball blindfolded" and yet noone has given me any real REASONING behind it

besides "its dumb"

still would like some actual reasoning if anyone can give me something a little more concrete..
The first two were before this post, Im not sure why you didnt see these as they are both good, "concrete" reasons (esp the bolded parts).

because it should be more rewarding to judge how far they will fly by how much they are hurt, which is what produces combos (in theory.. not so much in brawl :( ) and allows you to use your KO moves when they'll actually KO (managing hit decay is a rewarding skill too)

trying to guess their percent based on their previous knockback is just silly and unrewarding
Its just how all the "true" fighters are set up as well. Its just cumbersome to keep track of their and your percents, also more and more impractical in teams.
And this one was after

If you want reasons why you have it off, give reasons why you have it on.

Turning it off for the novelty of "adding difficulty and skill" is a bad idea.

1) If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
2) It's useful. Keeping track of your opponents life percent, keeping track of move decay, that requires skill and understanding of the game.


If you want an actual analogy (that baseball one was ********, seriously...):

Imagine playing melee with it off. You're Mr. Falcon fighting Falco. You know he's at around 100% and go for the inescapable stomp -> knee at greater than 98%. But wait, what you didn't know is that Falco is at 97%, so it doesn't work.


How is that "more skillful" or "adding to the game". The percent meter is there for a reason, those who are intelligent enough to utilize it have an advantage. Making it disappear detracts from the gameplay.
"Well, since I don't know what percent you're at, I can't tell if my sweet-spotted Fsmash will kill you, so I'm just going to shoot more fireballs." - Is EXACTLY what will happen.

Bad idea. I'm not going to be immature and criticize you for thinking it's a good idea, but it IS a bad idea. Making people guess when to use their attacks =/= skillful play.
 

Pye

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
496
Location
Montreal. PM me if you're on the island! I need op
Sorry Mani, this whole thead is one huge appeal to ignorance. You keep telling us to give you reasons to keep the damage meter on, and you demand analytical, raw data and reasoning, yet you have provided no such information to defend yourself. You're the one making a point here, not us. It's up to you to provide data, not us. Until you do, we've got no responsibility to defend our point of view, since it's not being attacked.

You're arguing in a blatantly flawed manner. I see absolutely no reason to give you my opinion on this, but I will anyway, very briefly.

Removing the damage meter will not provide more depth to the game. It is not a skill that will add depth to have to guess your opponent's percentage by how far your attacks send him. As someone already said, it's just cumbersome for no reason, and it'll encourage camping even more, which as I'm sure you know, is not something we need. Using the damage meter to know which moves will effectively combo is a much more active and practical skill to introduce to smash than removing the damage meter and having people guess at which moves will effectively combo is.

EDIT: ÒÚßÉÑ, how can you say we're "whining with no real reason"? I think you guys are whining for no reason. You come here and try to change something about smash that there's really no reason to change. That's whining without reason.
 

-Wolfy-

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Miss you Ryan
wow, i'm seeing a lot of negative feedback here, but it all has fallen under "whining with no real reason"

I will definitely be hosting my tournaments with damage gauge off.

comparing it to playing baseball blindfolded is silly...it's more like playing goldeneye without radar

let's take a look at a stamina game like street fighter II. you can see damage, and when you see that they have a sliver left, you basically can finish them off with any sloppy move, even if you take some damage for it. that's how it was. OK. so the damage system was introduced, and at first, you didn't know exactly when people would get KO'd, so you'd have to keep up your game until the match was over. NOW, you've played for a while, and memorized which moves are kill moves at exact percentages. a regression to stamina playing. REMOVE the damage guage, and you're living up to the damage system's virtues.

thanks.

good luck getting people to come, it really isn't as revolutionary as it sounds, it's an interesting concept, i just don't think you should have your sights set on the competitive community switching over.

and i thought the baseball analogy was pretty spot on... :(
 

DoubleAced

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
102
Location
Pennsylvania
No. The strategy comes in when you know how much time you have left to live, not when you guess. What makes games interesting is seeing how people react to the percentage they have. That's why it isn't and will never be a tournament standard.
 

Mani

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 9, 2004
Messages
31
Sorry Mani, this whole thead is one huge appeal to ignorance. You keep telling us to give you reasons to keep the damage meter on, and you demand analytical, raw data and reasoning, yet you have provided no such information to defend yourself. You're the one making a point here, not us. It's up to you to provide data, not us. Until you do, we've got no responsibility to defend our point of view, since it's not being attacked.

You're arguing in a blatantly flawed manner. I see absolutely no reason to give you my opinion on this, but I will anyway, very briefly.
I was trying to get an open discussion on the matter, not prove a point. I have simply come across this many times before and many people say "on cause off is stupid" or something to that appeal, and I wanted to understand *why* people felt on is better than off.

I don't think that one is better than the other persay, they have 2 different skillsets imo. I simply prefer Off, and wanted to know why so many people were *adamant* about it being on.
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
To borrow the words of the Head of Square-Enix, "Points for originality, but I doubt it'll actually work."

You ask for more reasons on why people are so 'adamant' on keeping the damage meters on in a tournament-style match, so I'll do my best to be as thorough as possible. Note that I'm probably forgetting some things.

1. Prediction of Strategy

A large portion of Smash Bros. strategy is based on prediction, sometimes commonly referred to as 'mindgames'. The ability to predict your opponent's actions comes from a variety of places and for many reasons (trapping the opponent into a cycle, noticing canned or repeated responses to situations, knowledge of move properties and degrees of knockback, etc.), but a large indicator of certain opponent's actions is the damage gauge. When at low percentages, it is prudent to take bigger risks, as punishment at low percentages is difficult. As a player's damage rises, though, many players begin to act with more reservation instinctively and, as such, take fewer risks (or take actions will lesser risks more often). This is a primary basis for the concept of 'pressure', as well (among other things such as spacing). Being able to discern, at any moment, the exact numeric advantage one player has over another is a very large part of being able to predict any player's actions and is a staple of gameplay. As a correlation...

2. Creation of Strategy

Being able to discern degrees of difference between player damages allows players to craft strategies on the fly that take advantage of specific situational details, rather than promoting strategies based off of properties common to all situations. This important detail creates dynamic fights that force players to act more within the constraints of the battle at hand. Many strategies are dependent on difference in damage (such as the above mentioned 'pressure' strategy), and cannot be reliably or consistently applied without the important knowledge that damage meters provide (after all, its difficult to pressure someone into an action if he/she doesn't know he's being pressured, as the very concept of 'applying pressure' relies on a player reacting to a situation with reservation; if a player doesn't know that his opponent has a commanding lead, then he will act with the same bravado that is used at early stages of a fight, in theory).

3. Reservation of Moves

As has been mentioned before, moves degrade in power the more often they are used, which can be problematic for a game with no discernible way to distinguish amount of damage (that it to say, no way other than after the fact). Being unable to preemptively know when a kill move will be successful can have one of two outcomes, one more likely than the other. The first (and less likely outcome) is that players will make sure to reserve kill moves and strategies for only when they are sure to work (which would be a positive, I'm sure), but the second (and more likely) scenario is that people will end up using kill moves too often, as waiting until 100% certain to use a strategy blindly (or next to blindly) is disadvantageous (the more time an opponent is on the field, the more time he has to counter-attack you). Even if this wasn't the case, damage meters also enhance the preservation of kill moves by showing both players exactly when they are sure to work, which can easily be linked back to our first point.

4. Combo Viability (a la pockyD)

As pockyD mentioned earlier, damage meters have the inherent advantage of promoting strategy (and prediction) by indicating exactly when certain combos are able to be used. For a real-world example, I play Toon Link and use a (very basic) three-hit combo consisting of a dair linked to a second dair (by bouncing) linked to a fair or bair (depending on spacing). I find that this 'combo', however, only works between 30-65% or so (depending on how high I can bounce) because of the amount of knockback the second dair strike gives on the ground (TL's dair acts as a meteor); as such, I cannot simply use the 'combo' all willy-nilly, and must reserve it for when it is strategically useful, something which is hard to do without accurate knowledge of damage amounts.

I hope these clear up some of the reasons why we play with damage meters on; I'm sure that there are inherent benefits to playing with them off, too, but as far as most people (myself included) are concerned, the opinion is that the pros are outweighed by the cons.
 

Vyse

Faith, Hope, Love, Luck
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
9,561
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I was trying to get an open discussion on the matter, not prove a point. I have simply come across this many times before and many people say "on cause off is stupid" or something to that appeal, and I wanted to understand *why* people felt on is better than off.

I don't think that one is better than the other persay, they have 2 different skillsets imo. I simply prefer Off, and wanted to know why so many people were *adamant* about it being on.
It's because this is the way its been for 6-7 years (Not including Smash64)

If say, for example, in the original smash, no damage meter was included, then perhaps it would be acceptable, but of course it is a standard of all fighting games (Bar maybe the original Bushido Blade) that fighting games contained some form of life gauge.

A better analogy than the baseball one would be:
"It would be like removing the speed indicators in a race car". Yes the racer's could possibly adapt to it, but it doesn't seem practical. Racer's need the speedometer so they know the exact speed they're entering a turn,, what gear to shift down to, etc.

There are countless examples as to why the damage indicator needs to remain on. Especially for tournament rule sets. For example, Falco's downthrow can be chained, but only to around 35%, therefore you need to know when you are approaching the end of the chain, and end it with a finisher, or prepare to lead into another combo. Or when using Toon Link's Reverse Aerial Rush (RAR) combo, you need to take note of percentages as they may be able to DI (Directional Influence) out depending on their percentage.

Then there's things like Dedede's F-smash, or Falcon's neutral B, which you would only bother with when the opponent is on high percent. The list goes on forever, believe me, the damage percentage indicator is there to indicate what you can do to the opponent, and what the opponent might be able to do to you.

Speaking of which, this gives birth to what some smash veterans might remember called 'Mindgames' Yes they do exist in brawl (Although the mindset has changed dramatically because of the loss of many advanced techs), and the percentage meter plays a large role.

So to sum it up, It could be employed, but it is entirely impractical, and nobody would want to. It'd be like asking a racer to remove all speed indicators in their car.

As was mentioned before, 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'.
 

-Wolfy-

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 1, 2007
Messages
2,495
Location
Miss you Ryan
I was trying to get an open discussion on the matter, not prove a point. I have simply come across this many times before and many people say "on cause off is stupid" or something to that appeal, and I wanted to understand *why* people felt on is better than off.

I don't think that one is better than the other persay, they have 2 different skillsets imo. I simply prefer Off, and wanted to know why so many people were *adamant* about it being on.
Well you've been really dismissive of all of the counterpoints. You can't possibly hope to hold an open conversation on something that is vastly different from the years of playing and expect there to be an overwhelmingly positive response. I understand what you are driving at, but as the moderator of a discussion have to room to arbitrarily dismiss peoples arguments as overly brief or too typical. I made my baseball analogy because it accurately conveyed the revamping of the difficulty, and you straight up blasted that argument.
 
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