Custom Stages: Designing stages for Competitive Play

[Conda]

Update: My Custom Stage series can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmm1joZm6wUU2ghzGdfVFsA9wykBhDA0H

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Competitive stages may be incorporated into the competitive stagelist at some point, due to implementation (down the pipeline) that will cause the 'distribution headaches' from the Brawl era to not exist in Smash 4. Integrating one or two great custom stages into the stagelist may happen, and there's no reason to not welcome them if they are truly great additions to the stage list.

But what makes a custom stage worthy of being added to the stagelist, without being redundant and too similar to other already available stages? Custom stages are often either too similar to existing stages, or too radical and wacky in design.

So I made this video that shows 7 stages I've created with competitive play in mind, and the thought process behind them. These are examples, and I discuss what it would take for a custom stage to be incorporated into the competitive stage list.

This is not a thread about saying "Ooooh I want my stages to be played at tournaments!", but rather a thread about discussing the things you should be thinking about when designing your own stages for competitive play. The aim is to increase the quality of custom stage applications, so we can potentially have one or two in the future that we deem awesome and unique enough to be added to the stagelist.

My discussion focuses on how to design stages that avoid redundancy and "too-safe" syndrome while still being balanced and unique amongst the other stages. In a nutshell, it's important to create stages in the mindset that its okay to take risks and experiment until you come up with something great. Barrels may seem silly, but what if you use them in a way that makes them arguably fitting for competitive play?

Many players have been creating stages that I feel aren't suitable for implementation into the stagelist, as they are either identical or worse than alternatives already present. I've created a few stages - some are recreations, most are originals - that have enough going on that would make them blend in with the rest of the competitively legal stages without providing too much redundancy.

 

[Pazx]

I like this a lot. I'm fully behind custom stages being trialed in a competitive setting and I would back any of your stages to be included, good stuff Cobbs.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

As much as I do see value in the stage list we have so far, I do think the occasional custom stage, (once the online sharing feature is implemented) would make for some good variety and different dynamics.

 

[<π]

pretty neat. I really like your stages.

 

[Raijinken]

I've been doing something similar to this, gradually incorporating past stages or modified versions of present stages in the Stage Builder. Since I'm sticking with the grid snap, I'm erring on the side of "slightly closer to the blast line" than the original for stages in Smash4, and am approximating the rest through Mario's roll length. It's a fun mental exercise. It'll be more interesting later when I start taking existing stage designs and altering them slightly (so far I've only finished Stadium 2, which isn't very creative).

I also like the designs of most of those stages. Some of the barrel tricks are kinda odd, but I like the moving platforms a lot.

 

[Conda]

I like this a lot. I'm fully behind custom stages being trialed in a competitive setting and I would back any of your stages to be included, good stuff Cobbs.

Thanks, just trying to raise the topic of custom stages and spur creativity so we may actually have one or two as part of our tournaments in the future.

I've been doing something similar to this, gradually incorporating past stages or modified versions of present stages in the Stage Builder. Since I'm sticking with the grid snap, I'm erring on the side of "slightly closer to the blast line" than the original for stages in Smash4, and am approximating the rest through Mario's roll length. It's a fun mental exercise. It'll be more interesting later when I start taking existing stage designs and altering them slightly (so far I've only finished Stadium 2, which isn't very creative).

I also like the designs of most of those stages. Some of the barrel tricks are kinda odd, but I like the moving platforms a lot.

Thanks! The barrels are a hazard for sure, but a neutral one and shouldn't effect anything much at all during combat. They're more of an interesting element that makes the stage a step apart from the ones we already have, while not being crazy or unmanageable. Kind of like how Brinstar works - lava is a thing, but not TOO big a thing. Barrels are even less so an issue, with how I placed them and the role they play in the stage (small).

 

[Raijinken]

Thanks, just trying to raise the topic of custom stages and spur creativity so we may actually have one or two as part of our tournaments in the future.


Thanks! The barrels are a hazard for sure, but a neutral one and shouldn't effect anything much at all during combat. They're more of an interesting element that makes the stage a step apart from the ones we already have, while not being crazy or unmanageable. Kind of like how Brinstar works - lava is a thing, but not TOO big a thing. Barrels are even less so an issue, with how I placed them and the role they play in the stage (small).

Yea, I agree on that. The only one that I felt was particularly strange was the large one in the middle of the... 4th stage, I think? But that's largely because I can see it used for stalling, and I'm also not aware of whether or not stagebuilder barrels do the same thing as the barrel in Kongo 64 (which caught me by surprise when it dealt damage in this game). They're a cool addition, just unexpected.

 

[Conda]

Yea, I agree on that. The only one that I felt was particularly strange was the large one in the middle of the... 4th stage, I think? But that's largely because I can see it used for stalling, and I'm also not aware of whether or not stagebuilder barrels do the same thing as the barrel in Kongo 64 (which caught me by surprise when it dealt damage in this game). They're a cool addition, just unexpected.

Yeah I was careful about that. You can't do much stalling, as you rocket up, but then you cannot take an action for a good amount of time while you're vulnerable. They do deal damage, but since the barrel is so far down, you're not going to surprise attack anyone. The rocket auto-shoots you out after a couple of seconds if you don't shoot yourself out, so you can't just sit in there to stall.

Also, wall jump stalling won't work as wall jumping dies after 4 or so jumps, and you start descending. You're also free to challenge the staller, if they find a way to stall, by heading down there and attacking.

The stage would also work without the center platform, and a pit there instead, but I felt it made the stage a little too unorthodox to fight on.

 

[David_give]

How did you get the fall through platform and the regular platform to line up perfectly in seaside dojo? I've been trying to replicate it, but it seems I can only get the fall through platform to be either slightly above or slightly below level with the rest of the stage. I think having a fall through platform like that in the middle of the stage is really cool, it opens up options for fall through aerials. I don't like your implementation though, as I'm pretty sure people can camp/shark forever there with walljumps.

 

[Conda]

How did you get the fall through platform and the regular platform to line up perfectly in seaside dojo? I've been trying to replicate it, but it seems I can only get the fall through platform to be either slightly above or slightly below level with the rest of the stage. I think having a fall through platform like that in the middle of the stage is really cool, it opens up options for fall through aerials. I don't like your implementation though, as I'm pretty sure people can camp/shark forever there with walljumps.

Yeah ive revamped that stage for that very reason, expect a new video soon.

And getting them to line up just takes from finesse, the creator has some quirks.

 

[NeonBurrito]

I think the idea to create competitive custom stages is a great idea, especially when online stage sharing is about to become a thing. However, I don't really think this will be entirely necessary, as I think there are a decent amount of legal stages already. It'll be fun if this idea does come up in competitive play however.

 

[moreside]

Whether or not custom stages ever come to a tournament setting, I really enjoyed your stage showcase. I've generally just been remaking past stages, so this has given me a bunch of cool (mostly stolen) ideas. Thanks!

 

[Raijinken]

I pseudo-ported Arena Ferox's statue form earlier today. It's quite a solid choice without the statues blocking projectiles. Still wish there was more flexibility for declaring spawn spots, though. Those tend to be too close for comfort.

I could see standardized customs becoming regular at smaller tournaments as long as no major stage-builder bugs are found. I doubt they'd catch on at major levels, though, just due to the uncertainties.

 

[Rajikaru]

I really like some of the stage designs, but I feel like the last stage's cannons don't really add anything, as like you said, you can use them, but you're pretty much giving yourself a disadvantage if not outright killing yourself by doing so.

I really want to experiment with stage building now, especially after seeing your stages, all I've made is dumb ol' Meta Crystal.

 

[Raijinken]

I really like some of the stage designs, but I feel like the last stage's cannons don't really add anything, as like you said, you can use them, but you're pretty much giving yourself a disadvantage if not outright killing yourself by doing so.

I really want to experiment with stage building now, especially after seeing your stages, all I've made is dumb ol' Meta Crystal.

Starting with existing stage concepts and modifying them is a really good way to design stages. Kinda like that one Conda made that was basically just FD that transformed into Battlefield.

 

[PSIGuy]

I feel like the inability to change blastzones might prove problematic in future. At the very least making blastzones changeable would make more stages possible.

Still, excited to see what custom stages end up with.

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Brilliant! I really support this idea, and your stages are awesome. Really hoping this goes somewhere!

 

[Sterling Ford]

I think custom stages are a good idea, if it's not battlefield nor final destination 2.0. The stages shown in the video are good example of diversity.

 

[Nintendrone]

Nice stages! Before your video, I didn't even know you could make moving platforms go through others.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think a very easy way of handing this is making custom versions of stages we already have in smash 4 or past games, like, say, Warioware, Pokemon Stadium and Pyrosphere in thier defualt, hazardless forms. Or Juyngle Hijinx's foreground with no barrels or breakable terrain. getting rid of the rock and klaptrap from Melee's Congo Jungle could be interesting. Having a small area from a big stage like PM's Skyloft is of Temple is also interesting

This could even make stages that have walk-offs originally have "normal" versions to play on, like Gaur Plains 3DS, Flat Zone 2/X's Oil Panic form, etc.

i think these familiar shapes would be more easily accepted by the community especially sinc emany competitive players seen to have a "man, this stage would be awesome if not for X" mindset, and while we greatly sacrifice graphics, we give 'em gameplay (the nintendo creed!).

 

[Rajikaru]

i think a very easy way of handing this is making custom versions of stages we already have in smash 4 or past games, like, say, Warioware, Pokemon Stadium and Pyrosphere in thier defualt, hazardless forms. Or Juyngle Hijinx's foreground with no barrels or breakable terrain. getting rid of the rock and klaptrap from Melee's Congo Jungle could be interesting. Having a small area from a big stage like PM's Skyloft is of Temple is also interesting

This could even make stages that have walk-offs originally have "normal" versions to play on, like Gaur Plains 3DS, Flat Zone 2/X's Oil Panic form, etc.

i think these familiar shapes would be more easily accepted by the community especially sinc emany competitive players seen to have a "man, this stage would be awesome if not for X" mindset, and while we greatly sacrifice graphics, we give 'em gameplay (the nintendo creed!).

I actually am dabbling in that. While I haven't worked on them much because working with the stage builder, while better than Brawl's, is lightyears harder, I've made beta versions of competitive-balanced stages for Kongo Jungle (right now just the main platform with 4 floating platforms, thinking about the rock ad such) and the example hole stage builder stage (right now FD length with a hole in the middle and 2 moving floating platforms). I'm really liking how the Hole is coming along, I'm making the hole big enough that ness's won't have problems recovering, but still big enough to allow Meteor Smash plays. Unfortunately CPUs don't understand holes, apparently.

 

[Conda]

Pokemon stadium with no transformations is too redundant to battlefield, and Warioware with normal blastzones (it had unique blastzones iirc which is what made it a funky stage) is as well iimho.

 

[PSIGuy]

Arena Ferox's transformations are fairly fun and different imo. I quite like the statue form with the asymmetric 1-left 2-right tilted platforms, and the chain form with the small solid pillar in center that holds one platform, with 2 slightly higher and to the sides, and one much higher above. Hell, most transformations on their own are fairly interesting to play on; why remake Pokemon Stadium without changes when you can recreate THE changes?

 

[hey_there]

I really like the idea of recreating stages without intrusive elements. Some of my favourites that I think would appeal to a lot of people are: Green Greens (no blocks), Frigate Orpheon (form 1), Jungle Hijinx (foreground), Find Mii (no Mii), and Reset Bomb Forest (form 1). They're all different enough from the standard of Smashville/FD/BF to offer distinct variety while still being quite competitive.

 

[Muro]

Love this idea.

 

[guedes the brawler]

i think "fixing" stages from this game that we are already trying to bring to competitive smash is the best possible first step. like Lylat with no tilting, or the 1st area of Castle Siege

 

[Conda]

i think "fixing" stages from this game that we are already trying to bring to competitive smash is the best possible first step. like Lylat with no tilting, or the 1st area of Castle Siege

Imo lylat with tilting is part of what makes it non-redundant and a stage that adds variety to the mix. Part of why Pokemon Stadium without transformations is 'fine', yes, but boring and too safe. It is too similar to battlefield to be worth having in the mix, as it basically already is in a different form. In competitive play, when you want to strike BF, you'd have to also strike a pokemon stadium custom map if it was also in the ix. Same goes for Lylat without tilting - too similar and requires crossing each of the BF-likes when you want to strike BF.

 

[Rajikaru]

I really like the idea of recreating stages without intrusive elements. Some of my favourites that I think would appeal to a lot of people are: Green Greens (no blocks), Frigate Orpheon (form 1), Jungle Hijinx (foreground), Find Mii (no Mii), and Reset Bomb Forest (form 1). They're all different enough from the standard of Smashville/FD/BF to offer distinct variety while still being quite competitive.

Green Greens is just Battlefield sans the topmost fall-through, with a long main platform and holes near it edges. Nothing really interesting that couldn't be done better and more originally.

 

[MAGMIS]

Maybe you could make a stage that specifically counters DIDDY..................

 

[Rajikaru]

Maybe you could make a stage that specifically counters DIDDY..................

I could do that, I just need a picture of somebody crying and I'll make a stage out of it, maybe have "GIT GUD" spelt out with floating platforms underneath.

 

[16bit]

I love this idea. I'd like Warioware from PM as a stage, as the platform design is different from Battlefield/Smashville style design. It can be seen as similar in some ways, so I'd be fine without it though.

 

[David_give]

What do people think about the stages with gaps in the middle such as sunset landing or a remade blockless Green Greens? I thought that stages like this might have been determined to be not very good for competitive play. I'd think many characters would struggle approaching people on separate platforms, which would end up encouraging camping. Is there a precedent for a stage being banned for this reason alone?

 

[Conda]

What do people think about the stages with gaps in the middle such as sunset landing or a remade blockless Green Greens? I thought that stages like this might have been determined to be not very good for competitive play. I'd think many characters would struggle approaching people on separate platforms, which would end up encouraging camping. Is there a precedent for a stage being banned for this reason alone?

Perhaps, it's quite likely.

 

[Lilfut]

I 100% support custom stages for competitive play. It would be nice to have things like transformation-less Warioware or stuff like Reality 64's Saffron City Competitive, not to mention all-original stages that fit the competitive mold. We'll need to wait until custom stage sharing goes live, obviously, but I'm very excited to see stuff happen with it.

 

[Lilfut]

I saw someone mention stages with gaps in the middle, and with that in mind I want to share a stage I made. It started as a straightforward remake of the Hidden Leaf Village stage from Jump Ultimate Stars, went through many revamps, and is now one of my favorite custom stages.

The central platform being a fallthrough leads to much more dynamic play in Smash than it does in Jump Ultimate Stars, as you combo and evade above and below it. Sharking can be a slight issue, but the staggered ground under the fallthrough makes it more difficult than it otherwise would be. The platforms on the side, meanwhile, allow for dynamic approaches similar to those on WarioWare:M.

Tip for any aspiring stage creators: test your stages with Little Mac and Ganondorf, make sure they can reach all the platforms. Ganon in particular can very easily just be blocked off from parts of the map if you make jumps too far/high.

 

[grandgear]

I think wall techs are pretty cool to see. Do you think walls can be added without negatively impacting competitive gameplay?
Here's an example

Spoiler

 

[MAGMIS]

I think wall techs are pretty cool to see. Do you think walls can be added without negatively impacting competitive gameplay?
Here's an example

Spoiler

Spoiler

I think walls will make dark pit the worst character to be played on that stage you made. just blocking the horizontal kill makes dark pit pure trash and unwinnable. also limits the recovery becoming more predictable to spike pit.

 

[Conda]

We've just finished the Stage Testing tournament, and there will be some AWESOME matches uploaded soon enough. Many wall play going on

 

[Foozal]

Can't wait!

 

[Vyledust]

Have you given thought to showing the stages with the grids showing for recreation, and then testing?