critiques please :)

[Brainjack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjQWnVq8ljQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6zwT6WUEc4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRAnnd-pcTQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLmvGP3yQwY

thx thx in advance!

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You need to work on a lot of things.

For one, learn to deal with Falco's lasers. Rolling away from Falco will not help you. You need to cut them off at the source. There's an entire guide about getting past Falco's lasers on these boards, I suggest you use it.

You also need to learn to edgeguard and to sweetspot, because you are getting slaughtered there. And perfect your tech skill more, you're messing up a lot of basic things. Also, you should have a few more mindgames on the approach, as currently you're being way too obvious.

Additionally, you should be more aggressive. You're sitting in shield when people are above you after having used their double jump, which just shouldn't happen.

Looks like raising your post count with stupid topics doesn't make you better after all.

 

[Miggz]

Ok, well I have a handful of advice for you. I'll start of with the stuff you need to work on and then I'll give you a few props at the end. Ok, well I watched your matches and I noticed something very interesting. Not sure if it was me but it looked like your performance depended on your foe's performance. Cause your first match, your opponent was a pretty bad falco, and you (no offense) mirrored your foes performance in that match. However, your foes in the following vids were more skilled and you looked a bit better in those vids. So my point...you should be playing well, regardless of how your foe plays...they shouldn't be your motivation to play more seriously. Now for the real advice.

You really need to brush up on your SHFFL game. Your marth was slow as whole cause you either missed your cancels or simply did not fast fall. I'm not go on and on, SHFFL will come natural the more you play. I see you can wavedash and you used it a few times in some basic mindgames. Now its time to step it up a bit. Learn how to wavedash out of shield. This ability will greatly improve your fights with Falco and his lasers. I mean, don't get me wrong, your full jump approach wasn't wrong, but if you don't have another approach to back it up (and since your canceling isn't too strong yet) it becomes very predictable.

Another thing with wavedashing....combine it into your edge guarding. When you get your foe of the stage, wavedash off the level and quickly flick your control stick downwards. This will allow you to get to the edge almost instantly. Also get into the habit of grabbing the edge after you claim a stock and wait for your foe's invulnerable frames to fade away, especially if your foe it ahead. I'll leave you with that advice for now. I'll think of more later.

But I can tell you do watch vids and I did like a few of your edgeguarding attempts. You have the ability to become a very decent marth. Now its up to you to find the time to practice. :-)

 

[SHDW23]

i would say elvenarrow's got most of the stuff. but it seems to me that you double jump too much without reason. it's a huge disadvantage to not have your second jump, so don't waste it. and i would put more emphasis on mindgames than elvenarrow does, imo you need to do more thinking while you're playing. it seems that you've done your homework for the most part, but reading guides and knowing theory can only take you so far. don't try to go beyond your skill, i think (and i could be wrong) that you tried to super-shield falco's lasers a few times. even pros don't try that often and with good reason, it's hard to do consistently. and you waste time when you try to waveland on the platforms and miss. play as simply as you can without losing speed (which i think is good advice for anyone, no matter the skill level). the last match was in my opinion your best. it seems to me that you mostly just need to keep playing. it would also be interesting to see how you do against characters that marth doesn't have advantages over, such as c. falcon and sheik.

i would also say that, though elvenarrow (and i'd like to think myself as well) has been relatively kind to you, in the future if you're planning on asking for help don't piss off the people you're going to ask for help. in other words, please stop spamming.

edit: note that i wrote this without seeing miggz's post

 

[Brainjack]

You need to work on a lot of things.

For one, learn to deal with Falco's lasers. Rolling away from Falco will not help you. You need to cut them off at the source. There's an entire guide about getting past Falco's lasers on these boards, I suggest you use it.

You also need to learn to edgeguard and to sweetspot, because you are getting slaughtered there. And perfect your tech skill more, you're messing up a lot of basic things. Also, you should have a few more mindgames on the approach, as currently you're being way too obvious.

Additionally, you should be more aggressive. You're sitting in shield when people are above you after having used their double jump, which just shouldn't happen.

Looks like raising your post count with stupid topics doesn't make you better after all.

****it, i thought that was the key to success?!?!??


c'mon guys i really appreciate the advice, and honestly i'm not trying to piss anyone off with silly things....it's all fun....just relax a little, people like raynex seem to be a lot more chill...

now onto more relevant stuff.....

a ****load of people have told me my approach is predictable and that overall i play way too defensive.....suggestions?!?!?! i find it really hard to change this......

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Look, before I say anything else, there's a big difference between Melee boards and Brawl boards. Melee is a different game, and our boards are different, naturally. There are a lot of idiots on the Brawl boards with stupid topics, and I'd rather not have that spill over to Melee boards.

Dashdance more. It's tough against Falco, but you should at least do it against Fox. Try to avoid full jump aerials, because those are really easy to see coming. You could always waveland out of them, or use a crossup. It's just really easy to see when you're approaching and with what, and that's bad for you.

As far as defensive playing goes, it looks like you're getting close to Falco then just... pulling out. Rolling away or whatever else. Replace a few rolls with spotdodges, intercept with your sword and priority rather than running away. It's hard to stay in with a high pressure character like Falco, I know, but it's worse if you let him spam lasers at you.

Also, learn to DI out of combos. If the Falcos you were playing were better at combo'ing Marth, you would've gotten slaughtered.

 

[Brainjack]

i kinda see what you're saying about the boards (although i've never been to a brawl board in my life, melee 4 life)

thanks for the other advice.....

also any advice for di'ing out of falco comboes other than just playing....cuz i do that quite often lol

 

[RaynEX]

Some quick stuff after watching the first match and reading the other posts people have made:

-For d.i.ing out of Falco's combos, I suggest you d.i. down+away when he shines or nairs so you don't get ***** afterwards. IF he dairs and it hits, practice smash d.i.ing away from him - his shine will miss and yuo'll get a free grab. Its pretty hard to do AND to practice, but its annoying as hell if a Marth can do it consistantly.

-Don't shield grab after he aerials your shield. The shine will beat your grab or w/e else you plan on doing...so wait for the shine THEN grab/roll/WD out of shield and fair. Marth has a million and one options. You just need to experiment and get a little bit creative out of your shield. Rolling is great but it isn't his only option.

-Work on your fludity. Dash control and FF edge-hogging. Long WDs and shffls without random mistakes in between.

-When you get a grab on Falco, **** him for it. Practice killing him out of grabs. You don't get them very often, so you have to milk them as best you can. Make every grab worthwhile. Learn to pivot grab so he can't escape, and m2k his ***.

-Most importantly:

Never have a preset approach, always react to what your opponent is doing. Make your moves dependant on what movements they make. Whether they're camping, attacking, running or recovering - if you filter your moves to include only the ones that will be the most useful in a given situation, you'll find that killing your opponent will be much easier. Spamming moves you think will work isn't how its done; think and react.

Yea thats about it. Hope I helped.

Looks like raising your post count with stupid topics doesn't make you better after all.

Elven: Harsh much? He was asking for advice, not disrespect. If you guys know each other outside of the boards thats a different story tho.

 

[Proverbs]

Looks like raising your post count with stupid topics doesn't make you better after all.

Hey man, that was uncalled for. He came here looking for help. If he made a topic like "How can I use wavedashing in my game better?" and didn't give a video or explain anything, then that comment may have been warranted. But he went out of his way to post four videos of himself playing so that he could see the gaps in his playstyle.

So ease up on the kid, he's doing the right thing to try to get help.

I just needed to get that out there to begin with.

To the OP: Let me take a look at your videos and review them for you. Just a second.

Match 1: Yeah, you're just letting yourself get pummeled by those lasers. That's not good. Sitting in your shield or letting yourself take those hits isn't a good idea. It'd be a better idea to just jump over all of them (not ideal, but it's an approach as opposed to just sitting there). It seems like you freeze up at the moment when all of those lasers are coming at you and you just don't know what to do. Read about the approaches to Falco's lasers here. That should help you a good deal.

Then just practice those--use them when you're in that situation. You'll find out what works best when and you should always be switching those up so you're not getting predictable.

Also, you seriously need to learn to SHFFL. I saw way too many full jump approaches, and some of them you used your double jump in as well. Not a good idea. All it does is make it so your opponent can see you coming a mile away. Get used to short hop aerial approaches, and when you've gotten that down start incorporating fastfalling and l-canceling into that. All when you're ready, though. Don't try to rush learning it all. You have a lot to learn and trying to do that all at once isn't going to do a whole lot for you.

You also need to work on your recovery. The habit you've gotten into (that I did for SO long) is using your mid-air jump at the start of your recovery. You don't want to do this unless it's going to help you in your recovery (which becomes clear later on, I'm still trying to figure out when that'll be useful) and the way you're using it, it's only hurting your recovery. The thing is when you get to the stage and your opponent is ready to edgeguard, do you want to have more options or less options? I hope you answered more. The thing is, you have more that you can do when you save your mid-air jump. It can allow you to jump and hit your opponent if he's coming in or hit him if he's grabbing on to the edge and then you can use Dolphin Slash. And even if you don't use it, your opponent's edgeguarding options are limited by the fact that he doesn't know when you're going to use it.

Also, don't use Dancing Blade so close to the stage to recover. Your opponent can easily attack you when you're that close to the stage. Using Dancing Blade is a waste when it's clear that you could have Dolphin Slashed much earlier, or fastfell and then Dolphin Slashed to sweetspot the edge.

As I've been starting to learn, when recovering (well, basically all the time but especially when recovering) you want to keep your eyes on your opponent's character and not yours. You need to figure out what he's going to be doing so you know what you should be doing. You should have a good idea of where your character is on the screen, and take a quick look back if you need to--but focus on what your opponent is going to be throwing at you, and then make sure you can get back to the stage as safely as possible considering your options (which as you now know, will be more numerous when you have your second jump).

Also, if Fox or Falco (and most other characters) is going to use their up+B and you know they're going to go over the stage but will be close to it, like at 0:54, don't f-smash. You want to either d-tilt, jab, or counter. Look at what happened when you f-smashed him--he ledgeteched. You still got the kill but if you were playing a better Falco he may have over+B'd which you may not have been ready to intercept with an f-smash. Or he may have used his up+B diagonally downward into the ledge. Or just dropped and over+B'd and sweetspotted the stage. Or just airdodged onto the stage. Do you see the problem here? You just gave him multiple opportunities to get back to the stage when you could have taken him out right then and there. The other options I mentioned to you won't do allow him to ledge-tech. You want to use f-smash to edge guard only when they're not so close to the stage and are approaching it horizontally and not vertically.

You also need to work on your combos. You follow up grabs/attacks with unfitting attacks/grabs that don't really do a whole lot for you. I can't tell you exactly what to do and how to do it--a lot of that is figuring out your own style. There's a Marth I've seen who combos really vertically but isn't too bad in the way that he does it and he pulls it off. Because you have your own playstyle that you need to figure out, I can't tell you exactly what to do. But what will help is watching videos of professionals and taking a look at what they do. Try to incorporate it into your playstyle, but don't mimic them. It'll all come together eventually.

Well, those were all comments on just the first video. But don't be discouraged. If you have a lot to work on that only means you have a lot to learn--which is a good thing. If you didn't have more to learn then this game would get boring pretty fast.

But you've got a good Marth in the works. You just need to bring out the better parts of him which are currently buried. But they will come out eventually.

Anyway, I'll take a look at your other videos another time, but I feel like I'm not going to see a whole lot of new mistakes in the other ones.

Let me know if you have any specific questions and I hope this helps.

 

[Brainjack]

haha yea honestly the first one was pretty **** bad......but thanks a lot for taking the time to write all that proverbs (take a look at the other ones if you get a chance cuz yea....i think they're better)

and raynex thanks a lot for the help, how do you suggest pracitcing pivot grabbing....

do you have to press z and dirction simultaneously?

 

[Proverbs]

^If it was just the first one that was that bad then I'll take a look at the others tomorrow, but I need to get a bit of sleep. I have class in 7 1/2 hours o_x;; Isn't that a scary thought?

 

[Brainjack]

oh alright lol., cool, night then

 

[RaynEX]

Pivot Cging


When you throw Fox/Falco up, between 20%-30% they can shine out if they DON'T d.i.

Your job is to pivot grab at this point. Time to give you an awesome drawing to explain.

Lets say the letter 'F' is Falco (grabbed), and the arrow signifies the direction you are facing while grabbing him:

F <--- From here, you throw him up. If he's smart, he won't d.i. in an effort to shine out of your grab. What YOU will do is dash in the opposite direction of the arrow, and turnaround grab. One of the biggest mistake most Marths make is dashing underneath the Falco (in the direction you were originally facing), then trying to grab him from the other side.

If you try to pivot grab like that, it won't work. You have to dash away, then quickly turn around and grab. You are virtually in the same spot, its just that you've moved back a tiny bit.

Keep in mind that if the Fox/Falco continues to d.i. left or right instead of trying to shine out at the specified percents, you can continue chain-grabbing. If you see them spamming d.i. thoughtlessly, you know they have no idea how to escape the cg - and you can rest easy.

Hope I helped.

edited: thx david. :D

 

[KirbyKaze]

fox iirc can do it as early as 20.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Hey, y'know, I'm sorry, but it bugs me a little bit when someone partakes in a six page topic that has nothing of any redeeming value in it.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yeah if you noticed we pretty much stopped that...we're sorry if we offended anyone but in reality we are just smashers that want to get better...if you look at threads other then the...2 or 3 that we've spammed...we are generally helpful or ask questions that arent semi-********

and lolol..have you ever been to the Atlantic South Boards..good gracious every 3rd post is some random bull ish

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202362

its not just us...hell we arent even bad compared to some of htese guys...im not justifying our actions or whatever but we arent the only ones doing it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

'Kay well... we probably just got off on the wrong foot. Sorry 'bout that.

Oh yeah, Smash DI. It's easiest to do with quarter circle DI. Just make a quarter circle with the Control Stick along the way it goes.

 

[Brainjack]

thanks raynex that really helps a lot

 

[Proverbs]

'Kay well... we probably just got off on the wrong foot. Sorry 'bout that.

Oh yeah, Smash DI. It's easiest to do with quarter circle DI. Just make a quarter circle with the Control Stick along the way it goes.

Can you be a bit more specific about smash DI? It's something I've heard talked about now and then and I have only half of an understanding of it. I use it, but not to its full potential because I just haven't heard it spoken about clearly and fully. I know it's a n00b question, but I'll never know if I never ask.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Smash DI is one of the coolest things you'll ever learn. I don't really have any evidence to back that up, but whatever.

Anyway! Quick review.

Normal DI is what you do before you start flying away from an attack to survive by changing your trajectory. The more perpendicular you point your Control Stick to the line on which you would've originally flown, the more DI you get. Generally, you want to DI towards the corners of the stage so you live longer.

Then we have Smash DI which occurs DURING hitlag. That means when your character freezes when he gets hit. By moving your Control Stick, you can shift the position of your character during that time. It doesn't change your flight path at all, just changes your starting position. You use Smash DI for higher percentage ledgetechs and to break out of otherwise guaranteed combos like the drillshine or waveshines. Smash DI can only be done when the Control Stick is in motion, and since it's not physically feasible to tap the Control Stick every frame, people use quarter circle DI which keeps your Control Stick in motion. Although you won't get all the Smash DI in the specific desired direction you wanted, you can theoretically get Smash DI on every frame. Note though, you can't use Smash DI to tech on the ground.

Then there's ASDI, or Automatic Smash DI. ASDI occurs at the end of hitlag at the same time you're flying away. There's two ways to do it. You can either point the Control Stick in a direction, or you can use the C-stick. No motion necessary, the game just reads the position of either (C-stick takes priority) and adjusts your position accordingly. ASDI goes half the distance of SDI, though, and you can use it to tech on the ground. ASDI is half of what people refer to as "double stick DI". You can use it to ledgetech at lower percentages, but since ASDI is put into effect at the same time your launch speed is, at higher percentages, it won't work, whereas SDI will always work for ledgetechs, providing you were hit with something you could tech.

Tada! I think I got everything.

 

[Ndot]

Yo Elvenarrow, could you explain to me how to properly do quarter circle di? I still don't it. I know you do it wen you get hit, but how do you know which directions to hit? Like up-left or down-left and up-right or down-right? Am I even saying this right? lol I just don't get what to do with the control stick really.

I want to know how to survive killer smash atks at high percentages like 125%ish plus lol.

 

[Brainjack]

um....im pretty sure you're not gonna be surviving killer smash atks at high percentages with sdi unless you're trying to tech, that'll just require regular di

sdi and asdi is mroe for gettign out of combos

which leads me to my question:

so would you use sdi horizontally to get out of fox uair? (or at least the knock back "sweet spot" part of it)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It depends. When I used quartercircle DI for ledgeteching, I'd start by going straight towards the ledge then quartercircle downwards to avoid walljumping. But basically, you just quartercircle from or towards the direction you want to go, so if you wanted to go left you could either start from the left and go up and left or down and left or you could start from up and left or down and left and go left.

Basically, you just run the Control Stick along the octagon that it's in in a quartercircle motion.

To survive smashes at high percentages... I don't think you would use SDI, since you can't tech on the ground with it.

What you could do is double stick DI, though, by adjusting your trajectory to be low with the Control Stick and ASDI'ing into the ground and teching that way. I think Magus has a few videos of a sleeping Jigglypuff teching that way.

But since that technique makes it so you're at a very bad position if the hit sends you in a way so that you can't tech, you could just ASDI down with the C-stick and DI normally with the Control Stick, tapping shield beforehand. That way, if you don't tech, you don't lose too much, and if the ASDI is enough, you'll tech.

And yeah, you SDI to get out of the second hit of Fox's uair. You can quartercircle it, which I think would be most reliable, or you could just react to the first hit and smash to one side with the Control Stick to avoid the second hit. If the Fox guesses which way you're going to SDI though, I believe he can DI his airtime to follow your SDI and clip you with the second hit anyway.

Or according to exarch, anyway. I haven't played anyone that can SDI out of the uair consistently.

 

[ArcNatural]

And yeah, you SDI to get out of the second hit of Fox's uair. You can quartercircle it, which I think would be most reliable, or you could just react to the first hit and smash to one side with the Control Stick to avoid the second hit. If the Fox guesses which way you're going to SDI though, I believe he can DI his airtime to follow your SDI and clip you with the second hit anyway.

Or according to exarch, anyway. I haven't played anyone that can SDI out of the uair consistently.

I'm consistent on Smash DI out of the upairs. There's basically 2 ways that work.

1: You miss the initial DI on the throw, therefore, you go straight up. Either you are really good at timing hitting left or right or you do the KDJ method. The KDJ method is simply dash dancing in the air.

If you can dash dance with Sheik, you have a decent chance of getting out of the upair, the tighter you can dash-dance with Sheik the more success you will have with this technique.

2: You get the initial DI left or right. Basically, just continue holding that DI until they approach with the upair, time it and smash DI in the opposite direction.

I find it easier to time 2 than 1. Probably because you have more time to react. So I almost always do KDJ DI if I go up, and if I get DI just time it. I usually get out 60-80% of the time. Probably because the fox I play isn't smart enough to mimic the airtime.

 

[Miggz]

Yeah, looks like you have all the advice in the world to better your game now. Just don't forget to record yourself in the future for us to see. ^^

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Method two would be better for it, because they couldn't change their DI in midair, plus it's just harder for them to land the uair in the first place.

The problem with dashdancing in the air, as Cactuar once said, is that if you dashdance too fast, you could SDI out then back into the uair.

 

[Ndot]

Thx for the info elvenarrow. =)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

No problemo =)

 

[Stratford]

Wow good **** Elven. I didn't really understand quarter circle DI even after reading Doraki's post, and you cleared a lot of stuff up.

 

[Retroking2000]

Method two would be better for it, because they couldn't change their DI in midair, plus it's just harder for them to land the uair in the first place.

The problem with dashdancing in the air, as Cactuar once said, is that if you dashdance too fast, you could SDI out then back into the uair.

thanks for the info

 

[elvenarrow3000]

No worries =) It took me forever to figure that stuff out, had to read through all the pages of Doraki's guide for the discussion. Just thought I'd spare you guys the trouble.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

very awesome looks my dude