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Critique me

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
It seems like making your own topic for this is the way people do it on the sheik boards so... I'd like some critique on some matches played this weekend :)

vs. puff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSaS1lcTgA0&feature=feedu (I only use sheik in the first 3 matches, but feel free to critique on the marth matches if you can as well ;))

I'll post a set vs. eagle (marth/samus) later/when it gets uploaded :)

Remember that this is PAL of course :p

Edit: Just finished re-watching the set myself now. God damn, I forgot that start of the final match... I bet this only happened because kirbykaze had to mention rolling past the fsmash to rest somewhere on the forum recently. Damn you :(

Edit2: vs. marth/samus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oralsa2EDIo&feature=feedu
 

joejoe22802

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
873
Hey I just watched the first two jiggs vs sheiks matches. I think you could incorporate more tilts like f tilt and a lot more CC d tilt. Also when you edge guard going off the stage isn't that bad. I feel like Jiggs are scary and the "do get hit" mind set really sinks in. But there definitely are good trades.

But I suck at this match up so iono lol
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
I'm already trying to take all the tilts I can get, but it really isn't so easy for me. I thought I crouched a fair bit as well, maybe even too much as I was experimenting with crouching under the rising Bair (thanks KK), but then I was too dumb to really do anything about later Bairs even though they should be easy to react to, and I even realised it while playing...
Off-stage, idk, don't think it's worth the risk most of the time, and puff can often just go above you anyway, I'll go after him if I see an opening and/or he decides to throw a stupid move out though.

Dunno, but thanks for commenting at least, I might watch the vid again and try to see if I can find more places to throw in tilts and possibly edgeguard off-stage later :)
 

gm jack

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 13, 2009
Messages
1,850
Location
Reading/Cambridge, UK
So long as you get invincibility before you go off, edgeguarding a puff isn't too risky.

Or, if they go high but not really high, you can jump, turn around, DJ bair through most of her moves.

Just don't over commit and it tends to be worth going for.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
Oh, if you mean close enough for edgehog stuff, then sure. I agree. I also like to just charge the needles and take the percents if I see him go low/aim for the ledge from above though, lol.
 

joejoe22802

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Messages
873
Ok well I re-watched this since I've been having a hard time with puff recently. There are many times in this match up where a mentality springs up where you just want to get some hits in whether it be because of losing patience or because you're behind. This generally translates to more aggressive slaps and worse spacing. There are just those times you want to challenge a puff that is spaced right next to you bairing. Really control your self there and just back off. Also there are times where you will pop them in the air and try to fair even though they DI'd hard away. I would just run that direction and try to meet them halfway as they fall instead of committing to something that probably won't hit. I think you could benefit from needle camping some more as a good set up. Another small thing to mix in there would be WD OOS jab which can set up into some easy slaps. I'm not really sure how to punish it but jiggs in shield usually always turns into a jump OOS aerial so I guess you could try to think that one through.

Hopefully this helps.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
Do gigantic 0-death combos.
I'll do my best to do this of course. Some more specific advice would be appreciated though, lol. Especially if you truly have some super secret 0-death combos on puff ;)

Joe: My impression was actually that it started going worse when I went too defensive and shielded/stood still too much again. That might later have caused what you describe though.

Jolteon: More Uairs is noted. It's a move i've been wanting to use more in my game myself as well, but appearently haven't quite done it enough yet... For this matchup at least.


Also suddenly realised today how all this Bair camping talk might actually work (yeah, I never really understood how Bair camping back should be so amazing :p).
I guess it's just that you actually can rising Bair against a puff that constantly jumps? Like before this i've always been thinking of Bair hitting way too high for Bair camping to be all that effective, but I guess SH Bairing should indeed be fine to throw in if you know the puff is going to jump at you.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
It honestly looks like you don't understand anything about fighting Jigglypuff and how to pressure with Sheik. So I'll explain my thoughts on that, and then give you some specific style advice.

Some notes: I used to think this MU was just a typical grind with Sheik vs. floaty only throw sucks. However, lately, after a brief conversation with Dr. Peepee about some of the general weaknesses he feels Puff has, and some evaluation of positioning and other factors that go into this MU, I think the camp game is self-defeating. For a variety of reasons.

Instead, establish stage control and push Puff to the edge. You want Puff on the edge, or close to it. Doing so allows you to pressure her with aerial needles, while still retaining the entire stage to retreat to if she starts muscling through. You can beat her ground approach movements with needles > d-smash combos (and similar), grabs (if she blocks for the down smash), and other shenanigans. Aerial approaches are dealt with by using Sheik's awesome aerials; they win the clashes if Puff isn't spaced as a result of their speed, and by forcing Puff to approach you gain a huge edge in positioning. If she backs up, shoot her with needles.

You want to be underneath the platform, at the edge closest to the middle to the stage. This is a good position for pressuring her. In general, getting under Puff is good (with nair, bair, etc). And down smash starts being good around 30% or so. Don't down smash into her shield. If you can condition her to shield, counter it with a mix of aerials, needles, and grab. Space your grab so you max-range it, to avoid crouch-rest or evade-rest shenanigans. Spacing the grab is super crucial. Learn how far you can be from Puff with a standing grab while still being able to grab her and abuse that spacing.




For you specifically:

I watched game 2.

You're really bad at using fair effectively because it looks like you only understand it as a move that covers low. It's better than her nair for covering high if you time it correctly, so learn how to do it. Your decision to use nair and whatever for certain high approaches gets you trading hits when you could be winning. Fair is flexible, learn how to do it in a variety of ways (rising fairs, delayed fairs, etc).

Tilts are horrible against crouching characters at low percents.

Use your needle angles to control space more effectively, and swat her away with fairs when she attacks you. Basic camping strat.

You counterattack a lot when you're in a bad position or when it clearly won't work. Nair oos, shield grabs, WD oos forward to try and tilt, etc. You need to reset your position a lot against spacing characters because they're trying to stay safe by maximizing the range of their moves.

You take way too many risks against grounded Puff with dash attack, tilts, etc.

You need to refine your combo decisions. With how bad this Puff's DI is, you could easily be getting 40%+ combos on him. Tilt > SH FF fair (delay the fair as much as possible while still retaining the autocancel) > a full set of needles if they DI the tilt poorly is pretty good way to rack a lot of damage. Throwing a full set of needles at Puff after you hit her away with an aerial is a pretty good way to rack damage on her at low percents. You seem to kind of flail around with automatic f-tilts despite the opponent's trajectory or what percent they're at, etc. Pay more attention to where they're going and plan your follows accordingly.

When characters like Puff, Peach, Ganon, etc. are doing their high aerials too close, that's your cue to get under them or attack from a favourable angle with fair or whatever. You forgo a lot of chances to get a good fair positioning and do damage and instead just block and counterattack badly or other stuff like that.

General tip: I prefer recovering low to recovering high if the opponent's not on the edge and also not in a position where they can get to the edge. Sheik's Up+B snaps to the edge really well, and you don't have to worry about air-dodges being read and whatever. I guess some characters can hit you out of it, but that's what sweetspotting, invincibility, and threatening with a potential DJ fair or whatever is for.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
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Århus, Denmark
Thanks alot KK. Actually getting some response when asking for critique is a great incentive to stick to this character :)
Could you look on my games vs. marth as well? I think i'm actually more clueless on that matchup :p


Higher Fairs, eh? I will definetly try and look into that, maybe it will help my use of AC Fairs in general too.

I feel like I normally am quite good at spacing the grab to not get rested btw. Maybe I do that better with marth though, idk.

Better bookmark this so I can read it for the next time I get an opportunity to play with him :cool:

Edit: Some time examples on some of that stuff would've been great btw, but i'll try to look for it myself :)

Edit2: looking back on that game, I can definetly see that I could go under him alot more than I do. I think most of the ftilting is just because I expect him to jump.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
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Århus, Denmark
Anyone feel like telling me how not to get 4-stocked by armada? As I get 4-stocked you're very welcome to repeat that I don't know anything and be very harsh (you don't need to tell me stuff like "don't DI into downsmash" though :p). You're also welcome to ignore the video because i'm clearly way over my head in that matchup and should probably take smaller steps :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-iBgKOe79Y&feature=channel_video_title
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
You need way more control over your character. Missing sweetspot Up+Bs, not using your invincibility at the ledge properly, inputting shield inputs at bad moments (and getting hit for it) all resulted in you getting hit a lot. Calm down and play properly.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
Wow, you actually bothered. Thanks alot KK :)
Yeah, i've never felt sheik was as easy to control as people say (like, I think marth has a much simpler flow for instance... Not that my marth did better against armada, lol). I noticed some of the stuff you say to an extent, but i'll take a look again and concentrate on that.
 

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
New set vs the same puff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJNlVjFyN7s&feature=channel_video_title

I didn't keep any of the stuff I was told here in mind in particular while playing and I probably haven't learned from all/any of it yet. Please do state it again if I am still doing everything wrong and go into detail about the same things if they are there :)

Playing against puff is so nervewrecking. Man, never thought I would get so much into a match that I would do that victory jump that I've seen a few other players do before (there's footage of this at the end of the vid :p). Oddly enough I wasn't even *that* disappointed when I shortly after got told that I actually lost, guess I was just happy that I got the kick for feeling I had won after that 8-minute battle.

On a sidenote: This is the first tournament match where I got a punish (and even a kill) straight from a shielddrop so that was cool :D
 
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