Creating NEW Super Smash Bros. - Day 03: Mario

Should the game's physics be closer to Melee or to Ultimate?

  • Melee

  • Ultimate


Results are only viewable after voting.

LoZ00

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
67
#1
(Please read this post with Xander Mobus's voice, it would be so epic, I guess)
NSSB logo.jpg

(I know the logo looks really bad but I suck at designing stuff and besides, I did it in like 2 minutes using GIMP).​
Greetings, Smash fans. It's-a-me, LoZ00 (I'm Italian, I can say it without being offensive). Perhaps you might be asking: "What is this thread about?" I couldn't blame you: I would be asking the exact same question if I were you. Well, I've been reading many predictions about a possible reboot for the Super Smash Bros. series and so I told myself "Why not creating a reboot myself?". This idea grew in me and so here you're going to read my own ideas about a possible Super Smash Bros. reboot that I called NEW Super Smash Bros. (don't try to deny it: if it were real, Nintendo would name it just like that). So, basically, I'm going to update this thread about every 2-3 days (I won't be consistent at all, I know how I am), and then we can discuss my ideas, in order to theorycraft this game. I hope you will find the discussion to be as entertaining as I believe it can be. In order to make the thread a nice place to stay, please, don't be offensive or rude: we are here to have a discussion and, most importantly, to have fun.

How does this thread work?
Glad you asked, LoZ00 from the past. Basically, in every update, I'll be sharing a new concept or idea for a certain character, stage, item, mechanic and so on, then we can discuss and try to make it even better. I'll write an extensive post regarding the subject (for example Mario) and how it works in my head, then we can start the discussion. Before moving onto the next subject (for example, after Mario we'll see Link), I'll make sure to update the original post with your best ideas. Please, don't be shy: I'll be so happy to change my original ideas if I see that you are enjoying this kind of thread (although I might be jealous if such a good idea wasn't mine, but still!). That's enough with talking, let's jump onto the general introduction.

General introduction: what's NEW Super Smash Bros.?
As I stated before, NEW Super Smash Bros. is a possible reboot for the Super Smash Bros. series that lightly revolutionizes the general mechanics (if it ain't broken, don't fix it), but that deeply changes how characters are portrayed, having a general focus on newer or more current characters and how they are portrayed in recent games. This was done in order to give the game a precise chronological identity (what I mean with this expression is that people will easily recognize it was done in the late 2010s even if they read it after five years, even if they won't be reading by that time). The general gameplay stays the same, as we'll discover better in the gameplay section. But now, let's dive right into the roster section!

The Roster: who are the playable characters in NEW Super Smash Bros.?
Before introducing the characters, I would like to say a couple of things. First of all, I had a very hard time selecting these characters and each one of them was thought through for a very long time, and still, I'm not sure about a couple of them. So please, don't be salty or sorry if I won't take into account your ideas to improve the roster, as I'm sure I forgot about a whopping amount of characters, but this selection of characters is something I really care. I tried to be as balanced as possible, however, there are still a couple of very biased picks. Then, when I picked these characters, I decided to only choose Nintendo fighters, as Smash, as its core, was meant to be a fighting game for Nintendo's biggest all-stars. Finally, I mostly picked characters that are still relevant nowadays OUTSIDE of the Smash series. So sorry for some fan favorites, but many of them really were in because they have always been in. Now, let's go with the characters, the 40 fighters you and your opponents will pick (I kept the numbers from Ultimate, although I had the idea first, because I think they are really good, as they mix characters from different series together while maintaining a certain kind of order).
  1. Mario - Super Mario Bros. series
  2. Link - The Legend of Zelda series
  3. Inkling - Splatoon series (both female and male variant)
  4. Peach - Super Mario Bros. series
  5. Kirby - Kirby series
  6. Samus - Metroid series
  7. Pikachu - Pokémon series
  8. Lucina - Fire Emblem series
  9. Donkey Kong - Donkey Kong series
  10. Isabelle - Animal Crossing series
  11. Luigi - Super Mario Bros. series
  12. Bowser - Super Mario Bros. series
  13. Tom Nook - Animal Crossing series
  14. Diddy Kong - Donkey Kong series
  15. Piplup - Pokémon series
  16. Olimar - Pikmin series
  17. King Dedede - Kirby series
  18. Yoshi - Super Mario Bros. series (don't worry, this wasn't a mistake)
  19. Chorus Kids - Rhythm Heaven series
  20. Ike - Fire Emblem series
  21. Pit - Kid Icarus series
  22. Fox - Star Fox series
  23. Zelda - The Legend of Zelda series
  24. Eevee - Pokémon series
  25. Mii - Miitopia series
  26. Toad/Toadette - Super Mario Bros. series (Toadette appears as an alternate costume of Toad, also I should mention that from now on characters are unlockable)
  27. Isaac - Golden Sun series
  28. Three Mage-Sisters - Kirby series (Francisca, Flamberge, and Zan Partizanne from Kirby Star Allies, the player is able to switch between the three like Pokémon Trainer in Brawl and Ultimate)
  29. Wario - Super Mario Bros. series (this wasn't a mistake as well)
  30. Dixie Kong - Donkey Kong series
  31. Rex - Xenoblade series
  32. Euden/Midgardsormr - Dragalia Lost series (Euden can transform into Midgardsormr and vice-versa, like Zelda and Sheik in Melee and Brawl)
  33. Incineroar - Pokémon series
  34. Spring Man/Ribbon Girl - ARMS series (Ribbon Girl appears as an alternate costume of Spring Man)
  35. Alph - Pikmin series (not a clone of Olimar)
  36. Octoling - Splatoon series (both female and male variants, not a clone of Inkling)
  37. Lyn - Fire Emblem series
  38. Ridley - Metroid series
  39. NES Remix - NES series (a single character that represents many NES games, takes various appearances, will probably be more clear when I will introduce it).
  40. Ganondorf/Ganon - The Legend of Zelda (can switch between the two formes, like Zelda and Sheik, but has a particular restriction, again, it will be more clear when I will introduce him).
I'll better explain how every character works and why they were chosen in their individual posts. Now, let's move onto the next section, being stages...

The Stages: where do these battle take place?
Now, let's analyze the arenas of the game. Unlike characters, stages were chosen more "casually": what I mean is that I care for some of them, while some others were added as "fillers", not because they're bad, but because I tend to have fewer ideas for stages. Your help with this section would be really appreciated! Send me your incredible ideas, I know you have many! Stages won't be numbered, rather they are grouped by series. And finally, * marked stages are unlockable
  • Super Mario Bros. - 1-1, Princess Peach's Castle, ScareScraper*, World Bowser, Whomp's Domino Ruins, Battle Stadium (from Mario Kart 8 Deluxe), New Donk City*.
  • The Legend of Zelda - Lake Hylia, Stone Tower Temple, Pirate Ship*, Skyloft, Hyrule Castle Ruins* (from Breath of the Wild).
  • Splatoon - Inkopolis, Salmon Run
  • Kirby - Dream Land, Fountain of Dreams, Mt. Dedede* (a substitute to the Ring)
  • Metroid - Chozo Ruins, Pyrosphere*
  • Pokémon - Pokémon Gym, Spear Pillar, Ultra Space*
  • Fire Emblem - Arena Ferox
  • Donkey Kong - Homecoming Hijinxs, Sunset Shore, 75m*
  • Animal Crossing - Town (a stage similar to Smashville), Tortimer's Island
  • Pikmin - Twilight River
  • Rhythm Heaven - Night Walk
  • Kid Icarus - Palutena's Temple
  • Star Fox - Corneria, Fortuna
  • Miitopia - Greenhorne*
  • ARMS - DNA Lab
  • Golden Sun - Venus Lighthouse*
  • Xenoblade - Torigoth
  • Dragalia Lost - Dragon's Roost*
  • NES - NES Remix*
  • Others - Wuhu Island (Wii Sports), The Desk* (Chibi-Robo), Savvy Boutique (Savvy Style), Snipperclips (Snipperclips), Obstacle Course* (Wii Fit), Nintendo Land* (Nintendo Land)
Again, stages will be better explained in individual updates. Now, we're talking about aesthetics, sounds, and music!

Aesthetics, Sounds & Music: Smashing with style!
To many, this part will seem pointless. But not for me, because I'm "crafting" a game like it was real. How should characters look like? This is a really tough question to answer. Of course, Nintendo characters come with a very wide variety of styles, ranging from the colorful Mario, Kirby, and Isabelle to the more serious Link, Samus, and Lucina. So, it is hard to find an art style that catches them all. Something we could experiment is a cell-shaded style, but I'd rather go with a more comic-book like approach. Let's have exaggerated POWs and balloons popping out during the fray, nice outlines around the characters and colorful scenarios. In order to make you better understand what I mean, let's take Persona 5's art style, and further exaggerate on the outlines in order to truly make the game seem like a comic. Sound effects should be very noticeable as well, like in Ultimate: you should hear a hit landing and you should be satisfied by it. Finally, I'd like to briefly talk about music. It will be pretty hard to set a tone for pieces of music coming from a massive amount of games and series, but if I had to choose a music style that nobody, apparently, complains about, is jazz. I don't mean that every music track should be a jazz rearrangement of a famous Nintendo track, but I think that maybe original tracks and many new remixes should belong to this genre. Also, I don't see why we should waste all the music from previous entries: this is the only aspect from previous Smash titles that would be carried over to NEW Super Smash Bros. Let's now dive into the last section of this huge post: the gameplay section.

Gameplay: how to Smash!
We've been talking a lot about fighters, stages, and stuff, but how exactly does one Smash? Well, not many things changed from the previous entries: basic and special attacks are performed like in older games and Final Smashes are present as well. However, there is something I'd like to talk about. First off, the hitstun. I know Smash 64's hitstun was infamously high, but I'd like a hitstun in between Smash 64 and Melee. Combos are hype, both to see and to perform: I'd like to encourage a combo-heavy, very flashy playstyle. This also means that footstools are removed, as they are mostly performed by accident. Parries now can be performed alongside shield (for example, L triggers shield, R triggers parry). Parries are much faster than a shield in the start-up and block the opponents for a few frames, should they hit the player, but they have a very long cool-down to compensate. Shields can be broken, while parries cannot. Due to the higher hitstun, shieldstun will be higher as well. There's an input for short-hops as well (for example, X triggers jump, Y triggers short-hop). This, alongside the universal 3-frames jumpsquat, retained from Ultimate, will make short-hops easier to perform for less advanced players. DACUS returns as well. Attacks out of a dash reappear from Ultimate. Players cannot run past a shield now, as they stop moving. However, by jumping when being very close to a shielding opponent, they can perform a new maneuver, called "step over". By stepping over, a character performs a hop high enough to be just above the opponent. The shielding opponent will be committed to shielding, allowing the hopping player to damage the opponent's shield and possibly even break it.


That's all for today, folks. I'll be returning in a couple of days with the #01 character himself, Mario. Also, you may notice that we're lacking in modes, items, and options. I'll talk about them in following iterations of the series. Have a smashing day, everyone, and see you soon!
 

Mogisthelioma

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 24, 2018
Messages
3,026
Location
The Lor Starcutter
#3
I really like the idea of this thread!

Just saying this, you may want to edit the roster list you have. It would probably be better to have the current full roster as well as your newcomer speculations, then let people vote to pick off fighters the don't like and add newcomers who they feel deserve to be in.

Also, I have a couple of questions about the roster: How come you removed all Star Fox content? I know the series has seen better days, but removing all 3 fighters seems a bit intense. I'm also curious as to why you removed: :ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultness::ultmarth:

Full recommendation:
Keep the roster base at the current selection of 69 fighters and 7 echoes, plus Piranha Plant and the five DLC fighters as they're added. Every few days or so, nominate a newcomer to the list via a poll, and people can vote whether or not they would fit, and if the majority votes yes, add them as the next newcomer. That would be a lot of fun! And maybe let people nominate who the next newcomer nominee is........

As far as everything else goes, holy crap, this looks amazing!
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
288
#5
I really like the idea of this thread!

Just saying this, you may want to edit the roster list you have. It would probably be better to have the current full roster as well as your newcomer speculations, then let people vote to pick off fighters the don't like and add newcomers who they feel deserve to be in.

Also, I have a couple of questions about the roster: How come you removed all Star Fox content? I know the series has seen better days, but removing all 3 fighters seems a bit intense. I'm also curious as to why you removed: :ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultness::ultmarth:

Full recommendation:
Keep the roster base at the current selection of 69 fighters and 7 echoes, plus Piranha Plant and the five DLC fighters as they're added. Every few days or so, nominate a newcomer to the list via a poll, and people can vote whether or not they would fit, and if the majority votes yes, add them as the next newcomer. That would be a lot of fun! And maybe let people nominate who the next newcomer nominee is........

As far as everything else goes, holy crap, this looks amazing!
Fox is number 22
 

LoZ00

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
67
#6
First of all, about the roster, I wanted to make a reboot for the series, not a new entry, so I’m afraid but we won’t be able to have all the veterans and nominate newcomers. This seems a lot of fun, though: why doesn’t someone host this idea as well?

I'm also curious as to why you removed: :ultmetaknight::ultmewtwo::ultness::ultmarth:
Marth was essentially replaced with Lucina both in terms of gameplay and, outside of Smash, in terms of popularity.
Sadly, Ness couldn’t make it to the roster because his series seems kind of over, right now. Ness’s situation is similar to Falcon’s, as they both are known just because of Smash.
Mewtwo didn’t make it in because I didn’t want to add too mant Gen 1 Pokémon (Pikachu and Eevee are the mascots, Piplup is a fan favorite, as well as my favorite [the biased picks I was talking about], Incineroar is a grappler, although Bewear would have been good in this spot too).
Meta Knight isn’t in because I have a couple of roles for him in my mind.

It's not much of a discussion thread if you pick the roster.
Well, in the next few days we’ll start talking about the characters: we can then open the discussion.

Picture my first post like a “ruleset”: we first settle the rules down, then we start playing!
 
Joined
Jul 20, 2014
Messages
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Iko_MattOrr
#8
I like very much this idea and the roster selection.
The only thing that bugs me about the roster is the Chorus Kids, because I'm a Karate Joe person.
Other than that, I appreciate your attempt to make a roster of only relevant characters and especially only Nintendo ones.
As a Kirby fan, I also appreciate the choice of the 3 Mage Sisters: while I admit that they are not on the top of the list of the newcomers I want from the Kirby series, they are still an interesting choice, becuasue they can use the Pokèmon Trainer gimmick but share part of the moveset, so every time you change, you don't get a completely new character but just some moves and properties altered (other than different elemental attributes).
(please Warp Star for Kirby's up special, please ;))
I LOVE your choice of making Wario based on his traditional Mario universe iteration instead of being all Wario-Ware, and Miis being based on some actual Mii game instead of being generic.

Speaking of gameplay, well... I'm not much in favor of making the controls overcomplicated... having different buttons for different versions of the same action seems a bit too much IMO.
For example, instead of having a different button for parry and shield, I would keep the shield button only, and expand the perfect shield mechanics instead.
I would bring back both the prefect shield when you press and when you release, making the perfect shield on press work as usual, and the perfect shield on release work more like a parry (it stuns the opponent and allows for a counter attack).
The shields in general should also be way weaker IMO, like, they shouldn't completely block all the damage, but only a part of it (like in Superstar-inspired Kirby games, when you shield with some abilities it's possible that you still get a part of the damage). This to discourage campers and over-defensive gameplay (a problem I had with 4); elements may play some interesting roles into interacting with shields (for example, shield blocks all the water damage and 75% of fire damage, but only 40% of the electric damage that also forces the character to drop the shield and be stunned a little; in case of water, despite blocking the damage, you would still get most of the knockback but without leaving the ground, you would only slide).
A suggestion is: if parry is in the game, all the counter moves should be removed from any character except for maybe some special exceptions like Peach and maybe Incineroar (their counters are a bit more unique).

As for the physics of the game, I would change those completely, making them more dynamic.
Let's think of a Mario game: you jump higher depending on your speed and on how long you hold the jump button.
Instead of having pre-scripted short jump and full jump heights for each character, I'd make it so that each character has its own inertia, mass and other physics properties, and it's all managed by the physics engine and the input of the players (how long you press). Not just that, I would apply this same logic on many other elements of the game: for example, the angle of some attacks can be angled precisely with the analog stick instead of having fixed directions (but in this case the analog stick would be mandatory, no D-pad setups allowed).

I'm interested in what you think about item selection. I'm all for less but better and more balanced items.

(P.S.: I'm-a-Italian too, whohoo!)
 

LoZ00

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
67
#9
Iko MattOrr Iko MattOrr I'm not quoting your massive post just because it would be too long, but I'm willing to talk about your brilliant ideas.
-First of all, Chorus Kids over Karate Joe. I must admit I don't love Chorus Kids either, in fact, if I was following my own bias and nothing else I would have added the Reporter from Ringside. However, Chorus Kids better fit an idea I have for a gimmick for a character coming from the Rhythm Heaven series.
-You totally nailed the Three Mage-Sister gimmick: it almost seems unfair (jk, I'm so proud people actually care about my project).
-Well, the gameplay section... You added so much to the table that I totally changed my plan and the next topic won't be Mario, but rather gameplay in general. I may agree with you about the short hop input. I added it because maybe new players might find it hard to short hop with just three frames of jumpsquat, but the way you totally reworked physics is just too much! I love your ideas for gameplay and physics and they'll be included in the next post. Them we come to shield and parry. You have a point about Smash 4 being too defensive. In fact, I added parries just for that: I didn't want to remove shields, because this might nerf grabs too much. I think that shields might be nerfed even further by making them very slow. On the other hand, parries will be very fast and have way less lag, but much riskier (if you miss, you're open). I'm not totally fond of your elemental shields idea: are they different depending on the characters? Or are they the same all across the board? Will they give an unfair advantage to certain characters over others? I'm sorry, but I think this isn't a very good idea. For the next big post, I won't use parries as a main gimmick: I will just nerf shields in general.

Anyways, thank you for the great feedback, stay tuned for new updates and continua così, amico!
 
Joined
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Iko_MattOrr
#10
Iko MattOrr Iko MattOrr I'm not quoting your massive post just because it would be too long, but I'm willing to talk about your brilliant ideas.
-First of all, Chorus Kids over Karate Joe. I must admit I don't love Chorus Kids either, in fact, if I was following my own bias and nothing else I would have added the Reporter from Ringside. However, Chorus Kids better fit an idea I have for a gimmick for a character coming from the Rhythm Heaven series.
-You totally nailed the Three Mage-Sister gimmick: it almost seems unfair (jk, I'm so proud people actually care about my project).
-Well, the gameplay section... You added so much to the table that I totally changed my plan and the next topic won't be Mario, but rather gameplay in general. I may agree with you about the short hop input. I added it because maybe new players might find it hard to short hop with just three frames of jumpsquat, but the way you totally reworked physics is just too much! I love your ideas for gameplay and physics and they'll be included in the next post. Them we come to shield and parry. You have a point about Smash 4 being too defensive. In fact, I added parries just for that: I didn't want to remove shields, because this might nerf grabs too much. I think that shields might be nerfed even further by making them very slow. On the other hand, parries will be very fast and have way less lag, but much riskier (if you miss, you're open). I'm not totally fond of your elemental shields idea: are they different depending on the characters? Or are they the same all across the board? Will they give an unfair advantage to certain characters over others? I'm sorry, but I think this isn't a very good idea. For the next big post, I won't use parries as a main gimmick: I will just nerf shields in general.

Anyways, thank you for the great feedback, stay tuned for new updates and continua così, amico!
I'm happy that you enjoyed my feedback!

About elemental shields, I wasn't refering to elemental shields actually, instead I was suggesting that maybe the regular shield could react differently if hit by an elemental attack.
For example, if you are hit by a fire attack, the shield defends you but part of the damage is still added to your % due to heat (you still resist to the knockback).
etc. something like that.
It's ok if you don't like the idea, it was just a suggestion and the project is yours!
 
Last edited:

Arcadenik

Smash Legend
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
13,428
NNID
Arcadenik
#11
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate seems to be the cumulation of the first four games. Where do you go from there? A reboot makes sense to me. The hard part is deciding the roster.
 

LoZ00

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
67
#12
So, after a week-long break, I'm here once again!
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has released. It looks good. It feels good. It is good. How can we possibly improve such a great game, you may be asking.
Well... Maybe, and just maybe, the game isn't as perfect as it seems to be, or rather, we can make a game that feels way better than Ultimate. So, without any further ado, allow me to introduce you the very first interactive post of this thread:

Gameplay & Physics

... wait...
How does this work? Basically, I will explain my ideas and some ideas I gathered on the internet, then you'll bring on the table your ideas. After some discussion and maybe some polls, I'll write one final post that recaps everything we said and hopefully create a "definitive" version of our ideas.
Let's begin!

-First of all, let's settle the speed of the game down. Many competitive players are fond of Melee's very fast and technically-requiring gameplay, but I don't really like it... I mean, Melee is cool and all, but maybe it's just a little bit too fast and technically-requiring, for a game that wants to be a party game as well as a fighting game. Maybe a game speed around Smash 4 or Ultimate (I like the latter better, though) would be right?

-Then, let's address a point I brought up in the introduction and that surprisingly nobody talked about: the hitstun. I like combos. A lot. They're great both to perform and to look at. They make the game feel even more fast-paced because a slight mistake will bring you to the loss of one of your precious stocks. That's why I'd raise it to be just in between Smash 64 and Melee/Ultimate. Not as long as Smash 64 though, just because I don't want every move to be a combo starter. Or what if every move had an independent hitstun multiplier? So moves like down throw or down tilt would have a longer hitstun because they're combo starters, while a forward Smash or a back aerial would have lower hitstun since they're KO tools. I like this idea even better!

-In my original post, I talked about a button for short hops and for parries. While I now believe that putting both parries and shields is a bad idea, I still think that a button for short hop would be immensely helpful, more so if we want (and I can say I want) to keep the universal 3-frames of jumpsquat. Iko MattOrr Iko MattOrr proposed a brand new mechanic that changes how shields behave depending on the element that hits it. For example, fire-based attacks would still deal some damage while having all their knock-back negated. While I am not personally fond of this idea, I dropped it just because I want everyone to feel included in this project. I'd also suggest raising the frames required to drop the shield even further.

-Then, let's inspect Iko MattOr's massive post even further. He proposed to make the physics of the game to be more "flexible". I'll quote him, just to show you what he means:
As for the physics of the game, I would change those completely, making them more dynamic.
Let's think of a Mario game: you jump higher depending on your speed and on how long you hold the jump button.
Instead of having pre-scripted short jump and full jump heights for each character, I'd make it so that each character has its own inertia, mass and other physics properties, and it's all managed by the physics engine and the input of the players (how long you press). Not just that, I would apply this same logic on many other elements of the game: for example, the angle of some attacks can be angled precisely with the analog stick instead of having fixed directions (but in this case the analog stick would be mandatory, no D-pad setups allowed).
I'd still keep a short hop input even in this case. It would be even more helpful for less experienced players (or ones that have more trouble pressing buttons lightly, like yours truly). A short hop performed by this way would have a fixed height and maybe would have a negative damage multiplier (like Ultimate's 0.85x). Other than that, I totally agree with Iko MattOr.

-I'd keep Ultimate's 1.2x damage multiplier for 1-on-1 matches.

-I'd heavily rework Final Smash meters: they'd fill based on how much you hit your opponent (and not the other way around) and even depending on the moves you use. Projectiles and weaker, safer moves will increase the gauge much more slowly than a single, powerful, risky hit. Even performing the same move will slow down the pace the gauge fills at. These Final Smashes would be weaker, though.

-Maybe I'm biased, but I'd remove directional air dodges as well. The way they're implemented in Ultimate seems to be more a nuisance than a help.

-I'd keep stale move negation and even stale dodging negation.

And that's about it. To recap:
  • Ultimate's speed
  • Individual hitstun for each move
  • Possible input for short hops, possible parries alongside shields, possible different effects depending on the elements that hit shields
  • "Flexible" physics.
  • Higher damage in 1-on-1
  • Reworked Final Smash meter.
  • Remove directional air dodges
  • Stale move and dodging negation.

This is what I wanted to address. If you have any idea, if you want to discuss my own (and Iko MattOr's) ideas, or if you just want to say: "LoZ00, you stink!" just leave a comment (please don't tell I stink, I'd cry profusely).

That's it for today, folks! Have a wonderful day and goodbye!
 

parachan

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Messages
2
#13
New to the forums, but is this an actual game you plan on implementing from scratch or will you be modding Ultimate? I don't see much in the way of development talk and more just design.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
548
#14
New to the forums, but is this an actual game you plan on implementing from scratch or will you be modding Ultimate? I don't see much in the way of development talk and more just design.
What would be "development talk"? A discussion about how feasible it is to mod Ultimate? I think it isn't at the moment because of the Switch's security and the fact it just came out. I think starting with this is a good idea.

LoZ00 LoZ00 One gripe I have with your roster, and this is more personal, is RIbbon Girl being an echo of Spring Man. This just can't work unless you want to make both not faithful to their games both in flavor and in function. This is an idea I keep hearing but people seem to not understand that both of those characters are not the same both in flavor and in function.

Ribbon Girl has multiple jumps, Spring Man does not. Ribbon Girl has a super fast air dash, Spring Man does not. Spring Man has a comeback mechanic, Ribbon Girl does not. And Spring Man has a deflector type of power, and Ribbon Girl...has none.

On top of all of that, each character in ARMS has three default weapons to choose from and these two have quite the differences between them. Both have a Fire weapon, but Spring's is just a regular glove while Ribbon Girl's is a whip-like appendage, so those have to be different. Both have a Wind weapon, but Ribbon's is a straight shot and weak while Spring's curves very strongly. And their last weapons are different types entirely, so those are different too.

The very best these two could be without gimping their designs would be Mario/Luigi style semi-clones.
 

LoZ00

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
67
#15
New to the forums, but is this an actual game you plan on implementing from scratch or will you be modding Ultimate? I don't see much in the way of development talk and more just design.
I'm afraid I'll disappoint you: we are just theorizing a game that may, one day, become a real flash/mod, but as of today, I don't plan to make it a real game.


LoZ00 LoZ00 One gripe I have with your roster, and this is more personal, is RIbbon Girl being an echo of Spring Man. This just can't work unless you want to make both not faithful to their games both in flavor and in function. This is an idea I keep hearing but people seem to not understand that both of those characters are not the same both in flavor and in function.

Ribbon Girl has multiple jumps, Spring Man does not. Ribbon Girl has a super fast air dash, Spring Man does not. Spring Man has a comeback mechanic, Ribbon Girl does not. And Spring Man has a deflector type of power, and Ribbon Girl...has none.

On top of all of that, each character in ARMS has three default weapons to choose from and these two have quite the differences between them. Both have a Fire weapon, but Spring's is just a regular glove while Ribbon Girl's is a whip-like appendage, so those have to be different. Both have a Wind weapon, but Ribbon's is a straight shot and weak while Spring's curves very strongly. And their last weapons are different types entirely, so those are different too.

The very best these two could be without gimping their designs would be Mario/Luigi style semi-clones.
I'm afraid I'll disappoint you as well, because Ribbon Girl isn't even an echo fighter of Spring Man, she's just an alternate costume. I'm aware of all their differences, but I wanted to include more ARMS characters and Ribbon Girl and ARMS itself sadly aren't relevant enough to justify a second slot.
However, think about it: do Koopalings really make sense as Bowser Jr.'s alternate costume? After all, they have completely different body frames and shapes, even in the Koopa Clown Car it would be very noticeable. Koopalings aren't even that related to the Koopa Clown Car itself and Shadow Mario makes absolutely no sense.
I envision Spring Man/Ribbon Girl to use many different arms, focusing more on the general mechanic of the game rather than their individual ones (for example, I don't think Spring Man would build up power the heavier is damage is).

Both of you stay tuned to see how this thread develops, in particular, Necro'lic Necro'lic , stay tuned to see how Spring Man/Ribbon Girl will end up being, and if you'll have any improvement or adjustment to make, feel free to tell us!
 
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#16
I'm afraid I'll disappoint you as well, because Ribbon Girl isn't even an echo fighter of Spring Man, she's just an alternate costume. I'm aware of all their differences, but I wanted to include more ARMS characters and Ribbon Girl and ARMS itself sadly aren't relevant enough to justify a second slot.
However, think about it: do Koopalings really make sense as Bowser Jr.'s alternate costume? After all, they have completely different body frames and shapes, even in the Koopa Clown Car it would be very noticeable. Koopalings aren't even that related to the Koopa Clown Car itself and Shadow Mario makes absolutely no sense.
I envision Spring Man/Ribbon Girl to use many different arms, focusing more on the general mechanic of the game rather than their individual ones (for example, I don't think Spring Man would build up power the heavier is damage is).
Here's the thing. I'd rather you just remove Ribbon Girl as an alternate costume than have both as separate fighters. Because to make them both into the same slot means BOTH will lose something that makes them unique, so rather just have Spring Man as the sole representative.

And I think where these two and the Koopalings differ is that the Clown Car is the main driver of Bowser Jr.'s moveset, and since all of them drive it, nothing changes there. On top of that, the Mario games already pile the Koopalings into one entity, so in that case, their appearance here is not exactly far from canon.

I think the main reason you should not do this sort of thing is because ARMS is a fighting game, and as Ryu and Ken have shown, it's best to directly migrate these fighters into Smash Bros as they are in order to garner familiarity. Spring Man without his comeback and deflect is not Spring Man, and Ribbon Girl without multi jump and fast air dash is not Ribbon Girl.

In short, don't have Spring Man have alternate costumes that are different ARMS characters, because it can't work without people getting a bit crossed, especially considering you would be taking away their MAIN abilities in the process.
 
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#17
LoZ00 LoZ00 I like your new ideas as well!

Hitstun has not been discussed simply because it seems that nobody has a problem with that. I skipped that part because I had nothing to add, I simply agree.
The only problem is that it can generate some Bayonetta-like situations, but that can be fixed through good balancing.

About your new post, the only thing I disagree on is about removing the directional air dodges, though I don't have a Switch yet and I haven't played Ultimate, so I don't know how they play in that game.
As a Kirby player, I used them a lot in Melee: since Kirby's air mobility sucks, I often had to rely on directional air dodges in order to survive and escape; in Smash 4 this was a problem against the fast characters too, especially online where the timing of the air dodge was often inconsistent due to lag (and the directional air dodge was not in the game).

I agree about everything else.
Having "flexible" physics along with an optional short hop input can work very well, especially if it's optional, like using the C-stick for Smash attacks.

I agree about your way to balance the Final Smash meter.
 
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LoZ00

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#18
LoZ00 LoZ00 I like your new ideas as well!

Hitstun has not been discussed simply because it seems that nobody has a problem with that. I skipped that part because I had nothing to add, I simply agree.
The only problem is that it can generate some Bayonetta-like situations, but that can be fixed through good balancing.

About your new post, the only thing I disagree on is about removing the directional air dodges, though I don't have a Switch yet and I haven't played Ultimate, so I don't know how they play in that game.
As a Kirby player, I used them a lot in Melee: since Kirby's air mobility sucks, I often had to rely on directional air dodges in order to survive and escape; in Smash 4 this was a problem against the fast characters too, especially online where the timing of the air dodge was often inconsistent due to lag (and the directional air dodge was not in the game).

I agree about everything else.
Having "flexible" physics along with an optional short hop input can work very well, especially if it's optional, like using the C-stick for Smash attacks.

I agree about your way to balance the Final Smash meter.
  • Well, of course, hitstun would be balanced, but I generally want to make combos easier to perform and have even less experienced players be able to perform satisfying combos. (Also, I'm really offended by how you attacked my lady Bayo.)
  • Directional air dodges take some time to get used to. However, my idea of removing them might be controversial. As a general rule of thumb, I'm more into adding stuff rather than removing, but I don't really like this mechanic at all.
Also, keep in mind that tomorrow I'm going to write a final post about gameplay & physics, where I sum up everything we said and try to have a general outline of how would gameplay & physics be in NEW Super Smash Bros.
 

Al-kīmiyā'

Smash the State
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#19
If this thread is mainly for your own opinions, I think you should have put it all in one post. It's not much of a discussion if you decide everything major. Melee physics are better than Ultimate's.
 

LoZ00

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#20
If this thread is mainly for your own opinions, I think you should have put it all in one post. It's not much of a discussion if you decide everything major. Melee physics are better than Ultimate's.
I added a poll so that everyone can come and vote which game's physics would better fit a new smash game.
 

LoZ00

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#21
So we can finally get to our next topic. And finally, we reach a character. And what a character, if I may say. How should we rework...


#01 Mario
01-Mario.png
I think it comes with no surprise that our first character is Mario. After all, he's Mister Nintendo, the face of gaming, and my favorite video-game character. But does he represent his series in the way he is currently portrayed?
In my opinion, the answer is... kinda? I mean, they got the very basics right and Mario is an all-around fighter like he is often portrayed in his games, but everything else is kind of lacking. His general attitude is way too angry and serious to be the Mario we all know and love. I've never liked a single artwork of Mario in the series barring the one from Smash 64 because they all look way too angry and concerned about the fight. Mario shouldn't look like this. Mario always seems to be a friendly face for newcomers, a character people can look at and think: "Wow, he seems really relaxed, even though he clearly shouldn't be. Maybe I should pick him." Where are all the "Oki-doki"s or the "Mamma mia!"s Mario always shouts? However, let's get this done step by step.

Aesthetics
Maybe you already noticed it, but I don't really agree with Sakurai about the way Mario looks like and acts in Smash. My very first concern is about his stance. Mario should be battle-ready, but at the same time, he shouldn't look like he is really going to fight. Mario lies in a weird spot, where he is always ready for a new challenge but at the same time, he is never going to be too angry or salty for the challenge. However, something I hope we can all agree about is Mario's jumping animation. It's a shame that Mario's jumping animation is just a slight reference to his iconic jump. This needs to change. It can change! It's so easy!
More onto the true "aesthetic" side of the character, I think that Mario's appearance is so iconic that we have to use it. However, for the alternate costumes, I think we can pick some costumes from Odyssey and more. I think we should have Fire Mario, Mexican Mario, Builder Mario, Golf Mario, Santa Claus Mario, and Wedding Mario, all but the first from Super Mario Odyssey. I feel like this list is lacking some iconic outfits, but these were the ones I like more.

Attributes and standard attacks
Mario should obviously be a balanced character, but I think he should have some emphasis on movement: after all, Mario is well known for his jumping skills. He should retain his current walking, dashing, air, and falling speed, but his weight should be slightly raised, in order to get to the 100 value Mario used to have until the PAL version of Melee.
Mario should be able to wall-jump, crawl, and glide using his Cape.
Now onto Mario's standard moves. Mario should mainly use his fists and kicks for standard attacks, just because they make him even more a "standard" character. Here I'll leave my ideas:
  • Jab - His current jab works just as fine: after all, it's based on Super Mario 64.
  • Side tilt - His current side tilt works pretty well, but I actually like SSBU Luigi's side tilt animation more. Maybe it can be slightly slower but stronger?
  • Up tilt - As a visual effect, maybe Mario could perform a very short leap while performing his uppercut. It would help the move look more like Mario's jump.
  • Down tilt - His current down tilt works perfectly. High hitstun, making it a combo tool.
  • Dash attack - This is an easy one: Mario's dive from Super Mario 64 is so iconic! Why didn't they add it in the first place? High base knock-back, it makes the move a nice "get-off-me" tool.
  • Side Smash - Mario's current side smash should be reworked to look more like the Firebrand ability Mario has in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga. Should be Mario's most powerful move.
  • Up Smash - I think Mario can use a raising uppercut as his up smash. Maybe he could perform a short leap too, in order to reference Mario's jumping animation.
  • Down Smash - This is the only attack that doesn't use punches and kick, but rather Mario sweeps with his hammer both sides. Basically the same as his current down smash, but slightly stronger at cost of speed.
  • Neutral air - A very fast spinning animation, similar to Super Mario 3D World spin jump. It has very fast start-up, making the move an combo breaker.
  • Forward aerial - A dropkick, similar to his old f-air from the first Super Smash Bros. I know many of you really like Mario's dunk, and I like it too, but for a less experienced player may be disorienting to have a spike as a forward aerial. Don't worry, though, Mario still retains a spike.
  • Back aerial - Again, a dropkick. This one is stronger than the forward aerial.
  • Up aerial - A backflip kick, like the current one he has.
  • Down aerial - I've always thought that Mario could really use a stomp. After all, in his series, his main attacking method is a stomp. So now Mario uses SSBU Dr. Mario's down aerial. There you have your spike: it makes more sense to have a spike as a down aerial for a newcomer.
  • Grab, pummel, forward, back, up throw: all retained from his previous appearances in the Smash series (up throw has the more polished animation from Ultimate).
  • Down throw: A ground pound, similar to Luigi's old down throw. It's high hitstun, making the move a good combo starter.

Special moves
From a competitive perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense to separate standard and special moves: after all, many characters work fine even without using their special kit. But from a "Nintendo student" perspective, special moves is where a character's true personality and origin shine. So I wanted to talk about them more in detail:
  • Neutral Special: Fireball - Yep. Mario retains his old Fireball from every Smash game he has appeared in. After all, Fire Mario is easily the most iconic power-up the series has to offer. However, Fireball should resemble how it works in its origin games more than it already does. Let's make the fireball slightly faster. After all, we have projectiles like Falco's lasers, so I don't see how a faster Fireball can hurt. Up to two fireballs can be on screen at once. In order to keep the move balanced however, it would become much weaker the more it's spammed, like most projectiles in the game.
  • Side Special: Cap Throw - Mario has two projectiles this time around. The next one is his already iconic Cap Throw from Super Mario Odyssey. I've seen tons of renditions of this move, ones even capable to hold the cap out in order to have Mario jumping on it, enhancing his recovery. However, I'd keep the move clean and simple: the move is basically a shorter-ranged projectile that can disrupt some character's approaches and, most importantly, can destroy some characters' projectiles, effectively acting as an anti-spam move.
  • Up Special: Super Jump Punch - This move already works incredibly well: I'd even keep the new aesthetic effect where sometimes Regional Coins appear instead of regular ones. It's a way to see Cappy more often. Other than that, I'd change the general aesthetic to make the move more like Mario's usual jumping animation (I know I've talked about Mario's jump very often, but I think it's the single most important video-game action ever), and make the move a slight better recovery tool, improving its distance and allowing the player to aim for different directions when attacking.
  • Down Special: Raccoon Spin - Let's face it: as much as I love Cape Mario (it's easily in my top 3 after Penguin Mario and Propeller Mario), it's no longer a relevant ability. So I though we can effectively change the power-up but keep Cape's functions unaltered by picking an even older power-up that has recently been re-used lots of time. When performing the move, Mario grows Raccoon ears and tail and spins, reflecting projectiles and flipping characters. Plus, wouldn't it be so adorable to see Raccoon Mario in HD fighting alongside Pikachu, Kirby, and Ridley? Adorable.
  • Final Smash: Mega Mario - I think that Mario's Final Smash should be an example for players, showing how most Final Smashes work. I agree with Ultimate's "standardized" Final Smashes, so I'd change Mario's to be more in line with Final Smashes such as DK's or Fox's. This time around, Mario grows huge (after eating a Mega Mushroom) and stomps forward. If the hit connects, the opponents will be paralyzed and forced to receive a flurry of punches and stomps from Mega Mario before a final, huge kick. I know that Mario Finale was visually more striking than Mega Mario, but let's face it: how weird is this attack for a standard character like Mario?

Miscellaneous
Finally, let's talk about Mario's taunts and other secondary animations:
  • Entrance: Mario jumps out of a Warp Pipe and shouts: "Let's-a-go!"
  • Up taunt: SSBU Mario's up taunt works perfectly (maybe I'm biased: it's my favorite taunt in the game!)
  • Side taunt: I liked Mario's old side taunt, let's have him performing it while facing the camera: that way it would look more like the "Stage clear!" animation from New Super Mario Bros. Wii
  • Down taunt: for Mario's down taunt I've thought about a simple, yet fun, taunt: Mario jumps and spins, while saying: "Mario time!". Mario lands with his arms open, like in many promotional and official artworks.
  • Victory fanfare: I think the current one is fine.
  • Victory animation 1: Mario takes his cap off and spins it on his finger. Similar to the animation Mario does at the beginning of the very first Super Mario Odyssey trailer.
  • Victory animation 2: I like Mario's jumping victory screen from Ultimate. Maybe we should keep it?
  • Victory animation 3: Mario throws Cappy towards the camera, than catches him back when he returns. Similar to the animation Mario does in Super Mario Odyssey when he obtains the ability to throw Cappy.

That's all for today, folks. Now it's your turn: what are your ideas for Mario? In case you have good ideas, let me know, I'll update Mario's post, acknowledging your great ideas. Have a wonderful day and goodbye!
 
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