Counterpicking Guide: A work in progress

[CrimsonQueso]

Hi, I don't know how to counterpick stages well. Please help by telling me each character's good stages and bad stages. I'll post what I know for sure is right so far. Please help add to the guide!
Note: Certain characters are better than others at certain maps they have advantages for, so don't expect to be at neutral when there's a double-Advantage or double-disadvantage.
Also, I didn't include any character below DK because they aren't played a much and it's harder to figure out what fits them.

Fox
Good Stages: Jungle Japes, Corneria, Green Greens
Bad Stages: Brinstar

Falco
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story
Bad Stages: Battlefield

Sheik
Good Stages: Final Destination, Fountain of Dreams, Battlefield, Green Greens
Bad Stages:

Marth
Good Stages: Yoshi's Story
Bad Stages: DK64, Green Greens, Corneria

Peach
Good Stages: Dreamland 64, Mute City
Bad Stages: Yoshi's Story

C. Falcon
Good Stages: Pokefloats, DK64, Rainbow Cruise
Bad Stages: Fountain of Dreams

Ice Climbers
Good Stages: Final Destination
Bad Stages: Pokefloats, Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japess

Samus
Good Stages: Dreamland 64
Bad Stages:

Doctor Mario
Good Stages:
Bad Stages:

Jigglypuff
Good Stages:
Bad Stages: Yoshi's Story

Mario
Good Stages:
Bad Stages:

Ganondorf
Good Stages:
Bad Stages:

Link
Good Stages:
Bad Stages:

Luigi
Good Stages:
Bad Stages:

DK
Good Stages: Brinstar
Bad Stages:

 

[Eaode]

Add Green Greens for Fox.
DK64 is good for falcon.
I've heard falco is Good on Poke Stadium, not sure though. Seems decent
Samus rules DL64
Dk is good on Brinstar

:-)

 

[BigRick]

Hmm, Fox is not really bad on DL64... depends on the matchup really

 

[th0rn]

A lot of the good/bad stages not only depends on the character itself, but also on the oppenent you're facing.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

A lot of the good/bad stages not only depends on the character itself, but also on the oppenent you're facing.

I assume you're talking about Marth's chaingrab on space animals, are there any other examples?

Hmm, Fox is not really bad on DL64... depends on the matchup really

High ceiling is what I'm thinking. Think it's not significant enough?

 

[th0rn]

Like there's a difference fighting a peach than a marth on Yoshi story with fox.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

Like there's a difference fighting a peach than a marth on Yoshi story with fox.

How do you mean? I list it as a good marth stage and a bad peach stage, so there should be a difference for any character

 

[pikachun00b7]

Pikachu
Good stages: Corneria, FoD, Pokefloats, Rainbow cruise, Poke Stadium, and fir some reason I LOVE DK64!
Bad stages: Ones with high ceiling!

These stages are relatively good for Pikachu and good against most chars!

 

[Justin Wiles]

You should start adding reasons why the stages are good/bad for each character so you know what to do when you take them there, and what NOT to do if they take you there. It's no good counterpicking a stage if you don't know how to take the advantage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How do you mean? I list it as a good marth stage and a bad peach stage, so there should be a difference for any character

He means that the advantage of you counter picking that stage changes depending on the matchup

Yoshi's story is a great Fox stage, except against Marth. The reason is that since it is better for Marth than it is for Fox you'd be putting yourself at a disadvantage by picking it against him, even though it is a good stage for you.

Against someone like Jigglypuff this stage becomes heaven for you.

Dreamland 64 isn't a bad Fox stage. I think it's a lot better than Jungle Japes (highest ceiling in the game. Brinstar is a very fun counter pick against space animals (especialy fox.)

Marth: Good stages-All the neutrals except PS and FoD (those aren't really bad for him, they're just not that good).

Bad stages- Corneria, Green Greens, Brinstar (unless you're fighting a Spacie), Kongo Jungle 64, Rainbow Cruise (not as bad as the other ones, but it's still bad for him).

YS is actually considered a good Peach stage against most characters because of her awesome close combat priority and because she'll have a much easier time killing. Agressive Peaches like XIF will sometimes even counter pick this against Marth.

Shiek:
Good Stages- FD, Battle Field, FoD, Dream Land, Green Greens

Bad stages-Pokemon Stadium? Kongo Jungle 64? Brinstar? I don't think Shiek really has any bad stages.

 

[th0rn]

Thanks sonic, I knew someone would soon explain it to him. I was too lazy to explain myself because it was pretty easy to understand. >_>

 

[CrimsonQueso]

Yoshi's story is a bad Jiggs level. It's a bad level for anyone who's light. So you'd counterpick Yoshi's Story against him.
Your example still holds up in my idea: that stage is good for Marth and bad for Jiggs. It doesn't matter who you are. You even post that one of Marth's bad stages is brinstar, except against Spacies., and you say Spacies are bad at Brinstar too. This makes perfect sense in this system, 2 bads make a normal...


I'll take some of your stage advice though....

 

[Rage.]

Ive known sheiks to Like Yoshi story too.

put down Rainbow cruise for Falcon too,
Bad Ice climbers stages: All the ones Falcon is good at

 

[th0rn]

Yoshi's story is a bad Jiggs level. It's a bad level for anyone who's light. So you'd counterpick Yoshi's Story against him.
Your example still holds up in my idea: that stage is good for Marth and bad for Jiggs. It doesn't matter who you are. You even post that one of Marth's bad stages is brinstar, except against Spacies., and you say Spacies are bad at Brinstar too. This makes perfect sense in this system, 2 bads make a normal...


I'll take some of your stage advice though....

You're not seeing the bigger picture here.

 

[pchoo]

Consider Final Destination, as IC's vs. Samus.

You list FD as good for IC's, but against samus this isn't true, since you then have no platforms on which to escape her projectiles. While granted you generally wouldn't counter IC's against Samus at all, you would pick IC's on FD vs Samus even less.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

You're not seeing the bigger picture here.

You're not providing a contradicting example (pchoo is, however)


And Pchoo, that's a character matchup problem. Any stage Samus is going to have an advantage against ICs, but I can see some of what you're saying... it's' not all matchup's fault.
Still, This list is a good idea of what to counterpick, I can't think of too many exceptions

 

[th0rn]

Actually, two examples were given for you, and again you failed.

Examples for examples for examples are lame.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

Actually, two examples were given for you, and again you failed.
I'm tired of giving examples for examples.

Learn to read, read to learn.
I refuted those examples. Read the thread. You can refute what I said or you can flame, personally, I don't care.

 

[Ryan-K]

Ok look at it this way, you put sheik green greens as a good stage for her. So that means you can use it as a counterpick. Would you take fox there?

 

[th0rn]

Learn to read, read to learn.

Good idea.

EDIT: I hope you can comprehend ryan's idea.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

Ok look at it this way, you put sheik green greens as a good stage for her. So that means you can use it as a counterpick. Would you take fox there?

No, it's a good Fox level too. In fact, I would say it's an even better Fox level than a Sheik level. This system doesn't show how much of an advantage each character has on each level, but I'd take fox to a bad stage for him and a good stage for Sheik.

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

Bowser-

Good stages: Yoshis Story, Fountain Of Dreams
Bad Stages: Final Destination, Mute City

 

[Ryan-K]

But it's misleading because if I didn't have much knowledge about this game, then I probably would be a sheik player taking fox to green greens because of what it says. When you write guides, you have to provide a context of some sort. If it's a good level for him and for me, then it seems as if it makes the match even or something. At least rank stages or something or provide short reasonings.

Also, you don't have brinstar as a good sheik level, apparently the only bad level for fox. Also part of counterpicking is preference. I myself like rainbow cruise as falco and hate poke floats. There are definatly others out there that are just the opposite. Nothing is concrete in this game. If player Joe does better against sheik with marth than fox, that doesn't make marth do better than fox in the match up, it is just preference. A tad irrelevant I know but I hope it provides some clarity.

 

[th0rn]

No, it's a good Fox level too. In fact, I would say it's an even better Fox level than a Sheik level. This system doesn't show how much of an advantage each character has on each level, but I'd take fox to a bad stage for him and a good stage for Sheik.

You just failed again. He was making a point by asking, not literally asking for advice.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

alright, that's gonna take some time and expertise that I lack. Care to help? I guess I'd rate each advantage at minor advantage, moderate advantage, and large advantage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yoshi's story is a bad Jiggs level. It's a bad level for anyone who's light. So you'd counterpick Yoshi's Story against him.
Your example still holds up in my idea: that stage is good for Marth and bad for Jiggs. It doesn't matter who you are. You even post that one of Marth's bad stages is brinstar, except against Spacies., and you say Spacies are bad at Brinstar too. This makes perfect sense in this system, 2 bads make a normal...


I'll take some of your stage advice though....

Did you get the Marth example? Yoshi's story being good for Fox, but being a bad counter pick against Marth.

Brinstar is a good counter pick for Marth against spacies not only because it's a bad level for spacies, but also because in this scenerio it becomes a good Marth stage. Marth get's to abuse his edgeguarding more frequetly because there will be less space to move around (especially when the acid comes up.) Marth will also be much harder for the spacies to edgeguard on this stage due to the acid saving him from spikes and shinespikes. The high cieling becomes Marth's greatest asset in this match because that's the main way that the spacies will be forced to kill him.

Now let's say you're fighting Shiek instead of a space animal.

Shiek's edgeguarding has basically remained the same because what she focuses is keeping you far away from the stage rather than pushing you downwards. You'll have a much harder time edgeguarding her here because of the move through quality of the stage. Shiek has better horizontal killing than Fox so that high ceiling is not as much of an asset for you in this particular Matchup. Shiek has an easier time abusing the platforms than you due to their position and the location of the top platform is bad for Marth because it's hard for him to reach and hard for him to get down from.

The stage hasn't changed at all, but diferent character matchups put focus on different aspects of the stage. Marth normally likes small levels more than big ones, but in some matchups a big level is better (like Marth vs Falco) not because it's particularly bad for the other character, but because the focus of the match changes to something that the other character is not particualarly strong in (like recovering because both characters can live longer here) or something that your character is better at (like edgeguarding because both characters can live longer here.)

 

[Ryan-K]

Except you would have to do that with each stage for each character in relativity to all the others. Putting corneria as a good falco level may work good against say peach but it won't have the same "large advantage" as it would if you were facing fox. That's part of the problem with it. It's not a "one size fits all" affair as you seem to be making it out to be.

EDIT: In response to crimson's post. Also, yeah sonic wave provided a great example.

 

[CrimsonQueso]

You just failed again. He was making a point by asking, not literally asking for advice.

Hey, this might be hard to understand for you, but Ryan's not being a flamer, and I'm agreeing to flaws in this system. In fact, flaming is kind of frowned upon in these forums you should go read the rules.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Hey, this might be hard to understand for you, but Ryan's not being a flamer, and I'm agreeing to flaws in this system. In fact, flaming is kind of frowned upon in these forums you should go read the rules.

Can you read my post please?

 

[Salaad]

I **** on FoD with Marth..The platforms help and hurt my Marth so it cancels it out..But I still **** Fox's on FoD. xD

 

[CrimsonQueso]

Yeah, I see what you mean by that Brinstar example because of sonicryan's clarification. Perhaps I should only post levels that give an absolute advantage or disadvantage for each character in that you would always take a character to that level, as long as you don't also have a advantage. Either that, or put a disclaimer that a double-advantage or a double-disadvantage will not be accurately portrayed.

 

[Salaad]

Yeah, I see what you mean by that Brinstar example because of sonicryan's clarification. Perhaps I should only post levels that give an absolute advantage or disadvantage for each character in that you would always take a character to that level, as long as you don't also have a advantage. Either that, or put a disclaimer that a double-advantage or a double-disadvantage will not be accurately portrayed.

Not to be picky or anything, but I believe it's Superryan and Sonic Wave.

 

[th0rn]

Hey, this might be hard to understand for you, but Ryan's not being a flamer, and I'm agreeing to flaws in this system. In fact, flaming is kind of frowned upon in these forums you should go read the rules.

How am I flaming you? All i've been saying is you keep failing to see the flaws in your system.

 

[theONEjanitor]

you should add fd to falco

 

[Sky2042]

Oh jesus, the little rat (coughpichucough) forgot Roy.

Best map = FD.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

A lot of times a good stage for you depends on your opponent's style, not just their character choice. For example, against a Sheik, there have been opponents who I'd counterpick Yoshi's Story against to kill them faster and give them no room to run. There have also been Sheiks who I'd counterpick Dreamland against because I'd live a lot longer than them with good DI, and they don't run away as much so that's no longer a problem. Notice how this has nothing to do with the matchup being different, just the opponent's playstyle. This is the same reason why some Peach players like Yoshi's Story, and some like Dreamland.

 

[Anklez15]

u forgot to add fd, pokemon stadium, dl64 to falco and i am pretty sure that falco is bad on yoshis story

 

[ToXn]

There's already a thread like this set-up the exact same way. I should know since I made it.

Good Luck with this though, I got too lazy to continue it, but If I did, I would of done Top 5 vs 5 only.

 

[Micheloxx]

guys i dot remember but luisi isnt good in BF, what i remember is like that..

 

[Jigglymaster]

Jigglypuff is good on Mute City, Dreamland, and DK64

Marth is also good on FoD and Pokemon Stadium