Countering Zelda

[nomnomnom]

I main ROB and I've been getting my *** kicked by Zelda lately. It's such a disadvantageous matchup for me I've had trouble getting it anywhere close to even.

So, a question for you Zelda mainers: What are your difficult matchups? What tactics does Zelda have a hard time against? What are good counterpick stages/characters (if it helps, I play olimar/marth/lucas/dedede/diddy all fairly decently, though I've been focusing on ROB lately)?

 

[ORly?]

Lucas, for sure, or Ness I guess. Pretty much any one who doesn't have to worry about din's fire. For some reason I also have a lot of trouble with really good Olimars.
Zelda's weakness is when she is in the air above her opponent so find someone who can move quickly, easily avoid (absorb) din's fire, and can juggle fairly well. That's just in my experience though.

 

[Rikuo]

Ness, Lucas, Olimar and Game & Watch are probably the four toughest opponents for Zelda, in my experience. I also have trouble with a certain Luigi player.

 

[sFoster]

You guys are crazy. Lucas and Ness are not that difficult.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has a weak game, and relies too heavily on dins fire.

Range is the name of the game people, and simply put Zelda has it over both lucas and ness.
The most difficult opponent I have encountered so far is Ike.

It feels like you have to be twice as good as the other player, because he ko's you at almost HALF the damage it will take for zelda to ko him. Only his smashes are slow, but his neutral A combo's quickly and effectively. Also his fair comes out quick and very hard.

You can still get din's off on ness and lucas, just don't spam it.
Stop at the first 1 and then go kick his *** for a little bit.

Good luck with rob.. he has priority over her jump kicks so try to utilize that.
Other than this little tip, I would say you're out of luck.

Zelda is a powerhouse!

 

[S2]

I don't know about Lucas, but Ness is still a decently hard matchup if its a good Ness player.

Simply because he's got some fast attack that come off of his body.

Ness/Lucas/G&W are some of the harder matchups, but they can all be beaten if you know what your doing (you've played them before and know how to counter them).

Fast characters are also a problem for Zelda, if only because they can do rush ins and easily punish your mistakes. They aren't really counters though and can be beaten if you aren't being predictable.

As for ROB, I'll tell you why ROB players don't like Zelda (look for the ROB counter section coming soon to my faq)

1.) Zelda can reflect all of his projectiles quite easily. ROB's standard B hits him always and the gyro becomes big nuisance for him since Zelda can spam Din's over it.
2.) ROB has a lot of powerful up attacks. Zelda players are trained to never come down on opponent from the air unless your going for a spike. So no Zelda player in their right mind is going to purposely fall for those.
3.) ROB can't easily roll into Zelda and d-smash. Zelda's dsmash is fast and if she starts it during the roll can hit ROB in the small window before he can d-smash (its got to be some ridiculously small amount of frames).
4.) Zelda has a good recovery that teleports in case ROB wants to jump way off the edge after you. He can screw some characters bad with this type of edge-guarding.
5.) Smart Zeldas avoid Rob's slow high priority air-game, or punish them if ROB makes a mistake.

Short answer is that ROB is a camper, projectile ____, and abuses his D-smash. All of which is hard to do on Zelda. It's like Zelda versus G&W/Ness/Lucas. ROB can't spam, but can still win if he plays smart. ROB is a good character, Zelda doesn't "counter him", simply gimps part of his usual game.

 

[Tsuteto]

Meh, my main trouble is coming from Sonic (though I think I've solved THAT problem), somewhat from Falco, and also ROB, though I've only fought one good ROB player, and since I've picked up ROB, I'm starting to figure out the strategies and how to work them.

You just need to take a bit more time. Do some stuff that you think is going to get you hurt so you can see exactly what not to use, as well as some things might come as a surprise. On the spot dodging with ROB is also really good because he can whip out his d-smash right after.

EDIT: And Pit. Then again, I don't fight Pit that much, so I've just got to figure it out a bit.

 

[sesshomaru]

ive been looking for a good zelda counter and so far its come down to... me being extremely frustrated. i have found that pit, lucario (ehh), fox wolf, and t.link do ok against her. im still lookin for a definitive counter but shes got her little tricks against each one of them.

i main fox and while you'd think his shine counters a camping zelda her dsmash and fsmash really screw up his approach making for very long and difficult matches. patience isnt something fox players have much of either.
pit and lucario stand a decent chance as well. pit probably being the better choice but like i said countering the dfire with arrows and pop shots til shes at 150% not something i want to do.
lucario on the other hand can kill her but heres the risk. semi matching the projectiles and making up for her speed with combos and increasing power does relatively fine unless your killed at a low %. kind of a gamble with lucario seeing as how screwing up that first stock could really ruin the whole match for you.

 

[Luthien]

You guys are crazy. Lucas and Ness are not that difficult.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has a weak game, and relies too heavily on dins fire.

Range is the name of the game people, and simply put Zelda has it over both lucas and ness.
The most difficult opponent I have encountered so far is Ike.

You have a harder time with Ike than you do with Ness/Lucas? Either you've been fighting Spazn's Ike, or your opponent's Ness and Lucas are the ones who have weak games.

It feels like you have to be twice as good as the other player, because he ko's you at almost HALF the damage it will take for zelda to ko him. Only his smashes are slow, but his neutral A combo's quickly and effectively. Also his fair comes out quick and very hard.

Um...

... spam Din's Fire? Really, just learn how to deal with his jab combo and you're fine (somethig I have yet to completely do). I've been testing shielding the first two hits and spot-dodgeing the third to counter with Dsmash, but haven't had any opputunity to test in in real battle. But really, Zelda can gimp Ike bad with Din's Fire. Really bad. Also, his fair comes out really slowly. Perhaps you meant his Bair?

You can still get din's off on ness and lucas, just don't spam it.
Stop at the first 1 and then go kick his *** for a little bit.

Of course you can. Timing applies to Din's too. Wait till they'll hesitate to use Psi Magnet, then cast Din's Fire. But I don't see how you don't have trouble using Din's on Ness and Lucas when you do against Ike.

Good luck with rob.. he has priority over her jump kicks so try to utilize that.
Other than this little tip, I would say you're out of luck.

Just stay on the ground. Zelda can avoid all of his projectiles with ease, and you shouldn't be approaching with kicks anymore anyway... Zelda isn't a one-trick pony anymore. Also, if you do plan on taking ROB on in the air, last I checked, Zelda's Uair > ROB's Dair.

 

[Shade_]

My zelda is nigh 100% (camper/dodge run away and spam more) and my brother plays ROB and I'll tell you the things he does that throw me off.

He always saves his beam and fires it only when I have started to dins fire. Charge your little spinny top thing when you knock her off and shes trying to recover and then shoot it when she leaves her self open from landing after her up B.

Spam those down tilts when your in good range and when she does the f smash roll behind her and downsmash or grab, grab is the better choice.

LEARN TO ANGLE YOUR LASER! It always catches most players off gaurd when they are above rob trying to recover and he hits you with his laser diagonally.

Never get on top of zelda or inside of her cus her up smash will tear you apart.

Zelda against lucas and ness is a bit harder cus he recovers like 20% damage if you dins fire him, but its a good idea to sometimes attack him with the fire so he sets up his absorbtion move then move it up so that it misses him or detonate it early so that he wont get it. Just reflect all his PK attacks back at him.

I find Ike much easier to play against but thats just me, I spam dins fire when ike gets close as soon as you seem him jump over or roll next to you, spot dodge and downsmash, when you send him away spam some more dis fire, when he gets closer again you can spot dodge his attack when he comes again grab throw him the other way and then run away to spam some more dins fire till he gives up of frustration because ike is way slower than zelda.

 

[sFoster]

Shade, what ike is getting close enough for you to spot dodge and dsmash lol?

Ike hits me out of range and KOs me at like 60-70% it's really frustrating.
He is way too powerful, and really not all that much slower than zelda.

His range more than makes up for his speed if you use his attacks right..
I feel like it's a seriously uphill battle.

 

[Fat Otaku]

Wolf works well against Zelda. His deflector effectively cancels any ranged control she has, and most of his smashes outclass Zelda and Shiek is power and speed. I was side-stepping, air dodging, and shielding against Zelda as Wolf earlier today, and it was futile because I would have to go on the offensive and be on the recovery from dodging the fire. Then I just held the deflector and baited Zelda to her doom. With the damage and distraction offered by Din's fire, Zelda is screwed IMO.

 

[sFoster]

Fat Otaku, you lost me after the first two sentences lol.
Did anybody else understand the rest of his post?

Anyway the beginning made sense, and I totally agree with what you said.
I've played so much zelda over the last few weeks it's obscene, and I play her exclusively.

With all of my experience, wolf is the ONLY character that has forced me to be offensive.
Fox is close, but it's more of a stale mate whereas wolf seems to have a clear advatange at long range.

He is also dangerous because of his fsmash distance.

 

[sFoster]

You have a harder time with Ike than you do with Ness/Lucas? Either you've been fighting Spazn's Ike, or your opponent's Ness and Lucas are the ones who have weak games.

Um...

... spam Din's Fire? Really, just learn how to deal with his jab combo and you're fine (somethig I have yet to completely do). I've been testing shielding the first two hits and spot-dodgeing the third to counter with Dsmash, but haven't had any opputunity to test in in real battle. But really, Zelda can gimp Ike bad with Din's Fire. Really bad. Also, his fair comes out really slowly. Perhaps you meant his Bair?

Of course you can. Timing applies to Din's too. Wait till they'll hesitate to use Psi Magnet, then cast Din's Fire. But I don't see how you don't have trouble using Din's on Ness and Lucas when you do against Ike.

It's strange that I seem to be alone with my Ike problem lol.
My Zelda is pretty sick these days, it's just that one small mistake will cost me a stock.

Din's fire can gimp a couple of ike's moves, but any good player can alter his attack strategy, and shield against a projectile. You can't run forever and in the end you have to engage him in hand to hand combat.

Now Don't get me wrong, I will deal my share of damage - it's not like I am a punching bag.
Even against great Ike's I will be on par, for example when I am at 70% he is at 70%

But 70% is a death sentence for Zelda here, so in reality I am actually behind and Ike still has plenty of breathing room.

He has some slow moves you can try to punish, but if you slip up once and he gets it out in time then you die. Because of that it feels like the odds are stacked against me. I was practicing against Ike today in fact for a bunch of games, and one of them I got hit when I was at 50% and it knocked me off the stage to my death lol. 50 before he hit me!! Funny but also very frustrating.

Then on top of everything there is his down-b counter which deals back 1.1x damage!
If you're not erratic in your attack patterns a good ike will make you eat your own foot.

I feel like the lucas I usually compete against is a really good player, but I have more room to slip up every now and then. If I play well against him overall I will still come out on top.

My most difficult matchups seem to be wolf, fox, marth, ike and metaknight.

 

[Tsuteto]

It's probably more an issue within your own mind. It's great and all that you're taking in account of your damage and the ability of your opponent's knockback, but that probably also makes you tense up just slightly when he gets near you. The best thing for you to do is know how to read his moves and to adjust for their timing. For example, his side smash compared to up smash. His side smash can, most likely kill you, but you can almost always get in your down smash before it'll it, or roll out of the way. Up smash won't kill you, as easily, but it's got a wider range than the side smash. If you're in front of Ike, roll away from him to avoid damage. If you're behind, you can either down smash, or roll away from him. And with Din's Fire, a player will almost ALWAYS avoid damage at a lot of cost, so you can place Din's Fire right in front of his body between you and him. That way, if he rolls towards you, it'll most likely strike him. He'll be tempted to roll away out of nature then, and you can barrage with Din's Fire continually. As he gets closer, you can charge him with a dash attack, and follow up with whatever until you can get distance again.

Hope that helps (even though it's a jumbled mess).

 

[billywill]

AS Zelda I have no trouble against any character

 

[goodkid]

^^^^
Zelda does not seem to have too many bad match-ups this time around. Only thing is small characters, which seem to be able to avoid a lot of Zelda's attacks.

 

[Tsuteto]

AS Zelda I have no trouble against any character

No offense, but you're being either way too cocky, the people you're playing with are not up to par for who you are, or the character diversity in your area is not that diverse (as in, limited to no more than five characters used overall, including your Zelda). EVERYONE has a character that bothers them to a certain degree. Though I can beat my friend's Ness, I still hate fighting it because of some of the attacks that Ness uses, and when he uses Zelda it's a harder fight, but I ease up a bit more.

 

[SeventhSage]

The only match-up that i had trouble with was marth vs zelda. still, i managed to beat the guy.

 

[Shade_]

forgive my accidental double post, computer lag = lame.

 

[Shade_]

No offense, but you're being either way too cocky, the people you're playing with are not up to par for who you are, or the character diversity in your area is not that diverse (as in, limited to no more than five characters used overall, including your Zelda). EVERYONE has a character that bothers them to a certain degree. Though I can beat my friend's Ness, I still hate fighting it because of some of the attacks that Ness uses, and when he uses Zelda it's a harder fight, but I ease up a bit more.

Meh, of all the game forums I've been to, ive found smash bros players and halo players to be the most cocky out of any other type of players. More than 75% of the people that have never had the pressure of real tournament (not the excuse for a tournaments game stop has) think they are hot stuff, you'll just have to get used to it.

 

[Tsuteto]

I'm use to cockiness, trust me. DDR scene has taught me how much of a ******* that community is (not as much as the WMMT scene though... one month later I left XD)

Besides, we still have a few cocky players here for our area, one in particular that I can think of. Supposedly hot stuff in melee (though he's totally predictable if you look at his videos), but completely nothing in Brawl (despite what he says). I'd rather someone not go down the path of cockiness. Most of the players in the scene may have it, but it doesn't mean they need to show it. Ew.

 

[Darkmusician]

I main ROB and I've been getting my *** kicked by Zelda lately. It's such a disadvantageous matchup for me I've had trouble getting it anywhere close to even.

So, a question for you Zelda mainers: What are your difficult matchups? What tactics does Zelda have a hard time against? What are good counterpick stages/characters (if it helps, I play olimar/marth/lucas/dedede/diddy all fairly decently, though I've been focusing on ROB lately)?

If you can get vids lemme know. I'll take a look.

Small characters are hard to kick but it's far from impossible. And by the same token they die from a kick a lower percent. Specially if the DI is off.

But then again it's all about player skill and match up knowledge. Knowing the Zelda side of each match up is key. What moves will/won't work, how to recover, how to approach, memorizing the reach/speed/lag/and knockback of moves. But then again the game is only a few months old so there's so much work to do.

 

[Cajole]

Zelda is so easy to beat.

I've been playing a great pro Zelda since melee. Coming to Brawl I see a lot of people getting schooled by Zelda, which I find to be pretty funny. Given that she's changed so little, I know perfectly how to deal with her already. I shall impart this wisdom.

Airdodge/spotdodge. Learn to use these well, and most Zeldas will already be defeated. If you're in the air and she Din's Fire spams, don't drift towards her, but rather straight down. Don't roll, that gives her a chance to set you up. Proceed at a cautious pace, tossing projectiles when you feel like it. Always try to get Zelda to make the first move, if you can't, then use one of your character's priority moves to open the combo.

Specific character strategies? Go for speed. Speed is her weakness. She can be combo'd to death by pretty much anyone fast enough.
If you have to use a slow character, focus on only getting in a hit when she's not going to get the chance to kick or upsmash. Naryu's Love is pathetic. There is a tiny window where she can be hit, some lagtime after the move. It was larger in Melee than it is now in Brawl, but still there, still exploitable.

Dodging Farore's Wind is pretty simple too, though only the good Zelda will aim to hit you with it on their descent. If you learn where she lands(always in a straight line), it can be avoided. However for you Zelda players who don't currently try this, do. Even a character that can predict it, will have to spotdodge or roll away, more oftenly roll.

For more pro-Zelda advice.. Forward Smash when they're coming at you from the front, but your upsmash won't connect. You may choose to forward smash instead of grab, for setups, unless you're in danger of diminishing returns. This IS a great setup, as people will clamber to the ground, and you can chase for the kick. Always maintain a safe distance between you and the enemy, making sure that you will have a move to counter what they will try to do to you. Forward smashing typically stops dashing, most smash/tilts, and can kill at pretty decent percents. Upsmashing stops almost all dairs and will drag the person into the damage, just like forward smashes. Both of these moves should be used in a shielding, defensive manner, and not in an attacking manner.

On the attack, nair is your friend. Naryu's Love can be useful when you know you'll hit the opponent and knock them away. Not everyone knows where you will end up at the end of Naryu's Love. For your information, they will always go the direction Zelda is facing.
Don't waste your time with downtilts/downsmash. unless you're just desperate or are facing diminishing returns. Maybe it's just bad habit from melee, but it just leaves you too far open and there are better moves to use.

That's as much as I can think of now. Time to go beat the best Zelda there is, some more.

 

[TechnoMonster]

You guys are crazy. Lucas and Ness are not that difficult.
Anyone who thinks otherwise has a weak game, and relies too heavily on dins fire.

Range is the name of the game people, and simply put Zelda has it over both lucas and ness....

[ike stuff]

You can still get din's off on ness and lucas, just don't spam it.
Stop at the first 1 and then go kick his *** for a little bit.

Lucas can camp you to oblivion with PK fire, and sparkles the hell out of you in close, and I've never been hit with a lightning kick; Lucas is too short and doesn't really like to stand where Lightning kick can hit. Upsparkle KOs floaties at 70. To put it shortly there is no way to effectively use your range against Lucas with Zelda, and I think the matchup is a hard counter, either 8-2 or 7-3.

 

[Random_X]

I'm use to cockiness, trust me. DDR scene has taught me how much of a ******* that community is (not as much as the WMMT scene though... one month later I left XD)

You too noticed this? I was also in the WMMT scene more, now I just go to play that for fun and crazy races...

Anyway, yea I noticed I had trouble against Lucas. I can my friend who plays him now that I actually play Brawl a lot more then Melee, but it's not a fun fight for me. Don't know about Ness since the only person I knew that played him went to Lucas now in Brawl.

 

[sFoster]

I've been playing some donkey kongs recently.

Man they are tough as nails.
Probaby harder than ike.

He hits just as hard, but as a better recover and faster speed.

 

[Tsuteto]

Really? I have no problem with DK.

Then again, my fair/bair has become a bit more consistent nowadays (was way off this Thursday though. Four in a row and not one connected on a Ness). Just think "heel + face" and you have TONS of motivation ^^

 

[Darkmusician]

I've been playing some donkey kongs recently.

Man they are tough as nails.
Probaby harder than ike.

He hits just as hard, but as a better recover and faster speed.

I agree with you.

 

[krlos F.]

Well, small characters like kirby and metaknight are more avilable to avoid some Zelda's attack (like Usmash and is a little difficult to gain a great hit of Fair and Bair) but characters who have been a problem have been metaknight and Game&Watch (I don't know whay GW are too difficult to me, I have to change to Sheik to hit him hard)

 

[PwnyRide]

From what i've experienced...

I've been playing a great pro Zelda since melee. Coming to Brawl I see a lot of people getting schooled by Zelda, which I find to be pretty funny. Given that she's changed so little, I know perfectly how to deal with her already. I shall impart this wisdom.

Specific character strategies? Go for speed. Speed is her weakness. She can be combo'd to death by pretty much anyone fast enough.
If you have to use a slow character, focus on only getting in a hit when she's not going to get the chance to kick or upsmash. Naryu's Love is pathetic. There is a tiny window where she can be hit, some lagtime after the move. It was larger in Melee than it is now in Brawl, but still there, still exploitable.
.

Well i cartainly havent heard of you...anyway moving on.

You shouldnt really be approaching with Zelda in the first place, but besides that, no, speedy characters arent her weakness.

Small characters (Zelda has trouble hitting them with particular attacks), and characters with high range/priority are her weakess (and when i say priority i dont mean projectiles, i mean a character like Ike for example, as well as Donkey Kong, both a major threat if allowed to get in close for too long, and close to Ike isnt that close at all, nor is the amount of time until you have excessive % racked up).

Naryus Love is not pathetic. It punishes rolls like anything, and the ability to toss an enemy in the direction you want is an instant advantage towards characters that are approaching from behind, an area where Zelda in key, lacks alot of cover otherwise, apart from the obvious downsmash.
The invincibility frames at the beginning of the attack are fantastic to help ward off agressive approaches.

Dodging Farore's Wind is pretty simple too, though only the good Zelda will aim to hit you with it on their descent. If you learn where she lands(always in a straight line), it can be avoided. However for you Zelda players who don't currently try this, do. Even a character that can predict it, will have to spotdodge or roll away, more oftenly roll.

If this is a serious match, there are better ways to use Farore's. Attacking with Farore's is the last option a Zelda will use to bail out of a tight situation. After the first attack use, the move is extremely predictable if used in the same way.

Farore's mind-game uses are still intact of course, falling diagonally and using FW to warp in the opposite diagonal direction, i have found, to be a godsend (of course mixing this up with more straightforward recovery approaches such a direct ledge-grabbing), its all about predictability, ive found if you're predictable with Zelda in particular, you're in for a spot of bother, because a good player will work around any repeated attack patterns very fast.

That's as much as I can think of now. Time to go beat the best Zelda there is, some more.

I cant tell if you're a troll though, so either i look like an idiot replying to a troll, or burst your bubble.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mr. G&W completely destroys Zelda.

Down-B counters her spam, and can kill her at 0%. G&W can approach her without fear using B-air. And all in all he owns.

Ness and Lucas also have the advantage.