Counter List

[Peek~]

Found this searching through some old topics. Made some changes

? = there might be a counter/equal matchup , Help me

Luigi > DK
Luigi > Samus
Luigi > Jiggly
Luigi = C.Falcon ?
Luigi < Fox
Luigi < Pikachu

Mario > Ness
Mario > DK
Mario = Link ?

DK < C.Falcon
DK < Link
DK < Pikachu

Link > Samus
Link = Ness ?
Link < C.Falcon
Link < Pikachu
Link < Fox

Samus > Jiggly
Samus > Kirby ?
Samus < Pikachu
Samus < C.Falcon
Samus < Fox

C.Falcon > Yoshi
C.Falcon > Fox
C.Falcon > Ness
C.Falcon < Kirby
C.Falcon < Jiggly

Ness < Pikachu
Ness < Jiggly

Yoshi < Jiggly
Yoshi < Pikachu
Yoshi < Fox

Fox > Jiggly

Pikachu < Jiggly ?

thoughts ,comments, suggestions, corrections, etc.

 

[NixxxoN]

I'd help you with my main Ness.

In my opinion its about this

Ness = Falcon
Ness > Kirby
Ness < Pikachu
Ness < Mario
Ness < Luigi
Ness < Jiggly
Ness = Fox
Ness > Samus
Ness > Yoshi
Ness > Link
Ness > DK

 

[Zen Yore]

Ness counters Link and Yoshi counters Falcon.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ness is pretty much a counter to any heavy char, where as luigi is a counter to any light char *cept pikachu due to his **** factor*

I think Yoshi is also good against heavy chars, but where CF is too, Yoshi vs CF is even

And as a fox vs ness..what does fox do to aproach a Ness who is good with DJCing Uairs?

 

[Zen Yore]

y is sirhc hella g.ay emo fa.g ftl ???

pika guay e must dy shudnt exist gu.ay fat rat

 

[Lawrencelot]

Pika > everyone, Kirby > everyone except Pika

 

[Zantetsu]

Pika > everyone, Kirby > everyone except Pika

Jiggly can 0-death pika easier then a falcon on falcon combo.

 

[tigerbombzz]

WORD ON THE streets is that...JESUS is pretty effing hax

 

[NixxxoN]

And as a fox vs ness..what does fox do to aproach a Ness who is good with DJCing Uairs?

Fox can do laser spamming while spacing properly and of course edgeguard

 

[Surri-Sama]

you can aproach someone with an edgegaurd? post a video please i dont understand o.o;;

 

[NixxxoN]

you can aproach someone with an edgegaurd? post a video please i dont understand o.o;;

lol u understood me didnt you. i mean, i dont think ness has an advantage over fox, as long as you do a good lasr spam and throw out ness and edgeguard as much as you can

 

[SheerMadness]

Yoshi and CF are pritty even.

Yoshi does extremely well against Fox too from my experience.

Only char that I would say counters Yoshi is Pika.

 

[Surri-Sama]

lol u understood me didnt you. i mean, i dont think ness has an advantage over fox, as long as you do a good lasr spam and throw out ness and edgeguard as much as you can

some how i dont see lasers as agood match up for DTC Uairs >_<

 

[NixxxoN]

some how i dont see lasers as agood match up for DTC Uairs >_<

no one can do perfect DJC's with ness so fox has some frames when he can hit him. But it's hard

 

[Surri-Sama]

no one can do perfect DJC's with ness so fox has some frames when he can hit him. But it's hard

I never said perfect, even ok DJC Uairs puts a lot of pressure on fox, as do Utilts

 

[NixxxoN]

I never said perfect, even ok DJC Uairs puts a lot of pressure on fox, as do Utilts

Well as I said, when I fight good foxes with Ness, they always do laser spam to me and Its hard to fight them too. Ness down b energy recovery is slow and it doesnt help much either.

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well as I said, when I fight good foxes with Ness, they always do laser spam to me and Its hard to fight them too. Ness down b energy recovery is slow and it doesnt help much either.

lasers dont kill people, people kill people

 

[NixxxoN]

lasers dont kill people, people kill people

Obviously, use laser spamming to block ness and then hit and kill him...

 

[Winston]

If the biased ness mains are gonna do it, I'll do it for my main too...

FALCON COUNTERS EVERY1 CUZ HE HAS THE HAX UAIR

(falcon does have the edge on yoshi, not sure about jiggs I'd say that's close to even, fox is indeed > ness, falcon = ness seems alright.)

EDIT: I'm working on a chart for this...

 

[Peek~]

falcon does have the edge on yoshi

Agreed

not sure about jiggs I'd say that's close to even

The more I see this matchup the more I think its even. This counter has existed for a loong time.
Jiggs has EASY gimps/Grab followups but Falcon's aerials eat Jiggly up. That's where Falcon should focus on in this matchup , specially since Upsmash is out of commission at low-mid to high percentages unless its to stop Nairs/Drills

falcon = ness seems alright

I really hate Falcon's matchups , it's pretty much **** or be *****. Id give a slight advantage to Falcon. Maybe not enough to call it a counter but he has it

 

[SheerMadness]

I don't know why you guys think Falcon has an advantage on Yoshi.

Also theres no way Jiggly counters Falcon. Falcon is very good vs Jiggly.

 

[Winston]

I don't know why you guys think Falcon has an advantage on Yoshi.

Also theres no way Jiggly counters Falcon. Falcon is very good vs Jiggly.

It's true that I haven't played good Yoshi players.

Why do you say that yoshi is even/has the advantage on falcon though?

They obviously both combo each other into oblivion.

I would think falcon has the advantage because of his dashdance/upsmash/grab/bair approach game, whereas yoshi's only viable approaches are djc, really (unless you count dash attack). DJCing aerials makes you pretty slow horizontally.

@ Peek:

I think falcon > ness, but I wouldn't call it a counter either.

When I get the matchup chart up I think I'll divide the matchups into --, -, =, +, ++. (so there's slightly favorable and significantly favorable).

 

[Rupus]

Yoshi: DJC Dair, DJC Nair, DJC Fair

All good approaches, even DJC Bair works fine, as long as you let the first jump go on for a bit.

Not to mention his eggs gimp Falcon's recovery.

 

[MattNF]

Falcon > Yoshi
Ness > Falcon

 

[Winston]

chart has been edited.

 

[Rupus]

How do you get that tier list?

In your chart, everyone has an advantage or is on par vs DK. Surely he should be at the bottom, with Yoshi second from bottom?

 

[SheerMadness]

lol you guys know nothing about yoshi

Who has a more valid opinion, someone whos been playing yoshi for 3 years or a bunch of people who never play any decent yoshis?

You people dont play yoshi nor do you play against good yoshis so I'm not really sure why you should be the ones determining his match ups?

 

[The Boss of God]

Mario > Everybody

Shorthop - Dair - Uair - Zcancel - Repeat
If they DI out of it, then turn around and grab them.

-k

 

[MattNF]

lol you guys know nothing about yoshi

Who has a more valid opinion, someone whos been playing yoshi for 3 years or a bunch of people who never play any decent yoshis?

You people dont play yoshi nor do you play against good yoshis so I'm not really sure why you should be the ones determining his match ups?

Actually I played against your Yoshi last night and I play Koro's Yoshi all the time. I use Yoshi occasionally, too. I'm fairly certain that Falcon > Yoshi.

 

[The Boss of God]

DK counters Pikachu effectively.
I'm not joking at all.

 

[Zantetsu]

DK counters Pikachu effectively.
I'm not joking at all.

Will you stop giving your opinions when you don't know anything? This is going to turn out like the tier list discussion. Random people putting in there opinions that are really off and then screwing everyone up.

Another reason why we need an ssb64 backroom

 

[TehBo49]

@ the chart: I disagree with Pika >> Jigglypuff. The match is actually close to even due to rest combos.
I'd also say that Fox =/< Ness.

 

[SheerMadness]

k so everyone who says Falcon > Yoshi should p2p me 10 matches

playing is more productive than talking anyway

 

[Daedatheus]

@ the chart: I disagree with Pika >> Jigglypuff. The match is actually close to even due to rest combos.

Agreed. In fact rest is most effective on pika, isn't it, since he's so light? And isn't the fastest 0-to-death the classic jiggly vs. pika? (fthrow->uair->dair->rest)

 

[Zantetsu]

k so everyone who says Falcon > Yoshi should p2p me 10 matches

playing is more productive than talking anyway

Playing someone else doesn't really prove anything. If that were true, Link > Pika because Isai's Link can beat my Pikachu.

 

[Winston]

lol you guys know nothing about yoshi

Who has a more valid opinion, someone whos been playing yoshi for 3 years or a bunch of people who never play any decent yoshis?

You people dont play yoshi nor do you play against good yoshis so I'm not really sure why you should be the ones determining his match ups?

Jeez, I SAID that the list was QUITE INACCURATE and I was looking for help on the matchups.

You're obviously more knowledgeable about yoshi than I am, but I at least want you to give some reasons for why yoshi > falcon.

Anyway, I'm open to input. I'm not "determining his matchups". Like I said, I'm only mostly sure about the fox falcon pika ones.

I'd be happy to play you on p2p, if we can catch each other online.

@ Meowkitty: I edited it, you're right. The current state of the list has DK second from the bottom, which is probably too low, but I was mostly going off the DK info Peek had in the first post. I don't know that much about DK.

Also, everyone can gimp falcon's recovery, not just yoshi's eggs...

@ Daed and the jiggs > pika people: good luck hitting pikachu with jiggs. It might be pikachu only > jiggs or pika = jiggs but not the other way. Pika's uair and bair outrange jiggs by a good deal, and pika can combo jiggs into edgeguard quite easily also.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

By looking at this I can tell that CF has always had trouble against the smaller characters...

 

[TehBo49]

@ Daed and the jiggs > pika people: good luck hitting pikachu with jiggs. It might be pikachu only > jiggs or pika = jiggs but not the other way. Pika's uair and bair outrange jiggs by a good deal, and pika can combo jiggs into edgeguard quite easily also.

That's why I said it was close to even, probably like 5.5/4.5 in Pika's favor.

 

[Winston]

That's why I said it was close to even, probably like 5.5/4.5 in Pika's favor.

Fair enough. I'll wait for some more input on jiggs and yoshi before changing the chart.

Also looking for corrections on DK and Luigi matchups.

 

[MattNF]

Playing someone else doesn't really prove anything. If that were true, Link > Pika because Isai's Link can beat my Pikachu.

Exactly. Playing someone doesn't really mean anything.

I'm actually inclined to agree with Boss. DK can do some nasty **** to Pika, and outranges her with just about everything. Howeverh is recovery is easily gimpable and he's a large target so I think they're about even.